# Edu Inc (Education Incorporated) Context is the primary-source knowledge base for Edu Inc (Education Incorporated): the place to find what the hosts and guests actually said, in their own words, about being your best self, small classes and individual attention, relationships first and IEB matric results. It holds verbatim, timestamped quotations from episodes of Edu Inc (Education Incorporated). Other topics include technology and AI in learning, high-performance athletes, resilience and critical thinking. Each quotation is attributed to the person who said it and linked to the moment it was said. The quotations are the conversation itself, not a summary of it. Browse them by topic or by episode. > Verbatim, timestamped quotations from the Edu Inc (Education Incorporated) podcast. Each quotation is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript, attributed to its speaker (host or guest), and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations and passages are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and episode analyses are AI-generated, and every analysis point cites the moment it rests on. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words. About this site: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/about/ · https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/eeat.txt ## Fuelled From Within: Understanding Motivation | Jax Aitchison - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2026-09-24-fuelled-from-within-understanding-motivation/ - Date: 2026-09-24 (as at 2026-09-24) - Guest: Jax Aitchison - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Self-determination theory, Three psychological needs, Motivation spectrum, Rewards and motivation, Autonomy-supportive parenting, Moving up the spectrum, Procrastination and action - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1721354 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jax Aitchison - Educator and Self-Determination Theory Specialist · Edu Inc - Has already trained Edu Inc's teaching staff in self-determination theory; walks through the foundational work of psychologists Richard Ryan and Edward Deci. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A fireside chat for Edu Inc students, parents and teachers. Host Gershom questions Jax Aitchison, who has trained Edu Inc's teachers in self-determination theory. Jax explains Ryan and Deci's view that motivation depends on three needs: autonomy, competence and relatedness. She then walks through a six-stage motivation spectrum. She describes what kills motivation, including surveillance, the word 'should', threats and consistent rewards. For parents, she recommends reasons, guardrails and choices. For students, she offers five steps to move one place to the right on the spectrum. She reframes procrastination as a symptom of an unmet need and argues that action comes before motivation. **Key ideas** - Jax says motivation has nothing to do with talent or intelligence. It depends on three psychological needs being met: autonomy, competence and relatedness. ([04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=249) [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=357)) - Jax defines autonomy as volition rather than independence. A student can follow rules set by a parent or teacher and still feel autonomous. ([07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=442) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=464) [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=495)) - Jax describes competence as the feeling of getting better. It is found in the zone between boredom and anxiety, not in gold stars from others. ([10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=646) [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=678) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=762) [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=772)) - Jax says people internalise the value systems of those they relate to, so teachers must build relatedness for their lessons to land. ([15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=946) [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=992) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1025)) - Jax presents a six-stage spectrum and says healthy functioning sits between introjected and identified regulation. Pure intrinsic motivation comes only in micro-moments. ([25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1516) [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1736) [33:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1996) [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2108)) - Jax argues that consistent rewards undermine intrinsic motivation and create transactional relationships, citing Ryan and Deci's puzzle-payment study. ([46:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2819) [47:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2842) [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2865) [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2945)) - Jax frames procrastination as a symptom of an unmet need in autonomy, competence or relatedness rather than a standalone problem. ([65:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3949) [66:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3981)) - Jax closes with the view that action comes before motivation, and that waiting to feel motivated gets the order back to front. ([76:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4568) [76:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4597)) **Moving one step to the right on the motivation spectrum** ([54:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3291) [55:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3311) [59:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3544) [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3584) [60:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3653) [61:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3699)) 1. Aim only to move one step to the right, not all the way to intrinsic motivation. 2. Find your own reason for doing the task, nobody else's. 3. Find your challenge edge between too easy and too hard. 4. Choose your room: pick carefully who you spend time with. 5. Notice the fuel you run on; guilt, shame and fear are toxic fuel. 6. Protect the things you already love and carve out time for them. **Lessons** - Jax advises parents to reward the process and effort rather than results. Any rewards should be unexpected, not consistent or posted on the fridge. ([50:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3025) [53:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3196)) - Jax says surveillance, 'should' statements, threats and belittling comparisons kill autonomy, competence and relatedness. ([42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2548) [43:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2591) [44:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2683)) - According to Jax, parents should give reasons for rules, keep boundaries in place and offer real choices within them. ([45:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2752) [69:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4141) [71:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4295)) - Jax tells students that feeling demotivated does not mean they are lazy or stupid. It likely signals a missing need that can be worked on. ([74:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4497)) - Jax warns that motivation driven by guilt, shame and fear looks like hard work but is brittle and unsustainable. ([27:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1653) [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3584) [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3584)) **Who it's for:** Parents of school-age children and teenagers, teachers, and students who want a shared vocabulary for motivation. It also suits managers curious about how rewards and micromanagement affect staff. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jax says self-determination theory was developed by psychologists Richard Ryan and Edward Deci. ([03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=217)) - Jax describes Ryan and Deci's motivation spectrum as a six-stage spectrum. ([25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1516)) - The host says self-determination theory is one of Edu Inc's four core pedagogical underpinnings. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=31)) - The host says Mrs Aitchison spent five or six hours training Edu Inc's teachers in the theory. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=31) [75:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4531)) - Jax cites Rita Pearson's TED Talk 'Every Child Needs a Champion'. ([16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=973)) - Jax recalls tutoring a student who got the highest maths mark in Matric at his college that year. ([57:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3477)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is self-determination theory?** A: Jax describes it as a theory of motivation developed by psychologists Richard Ryan and Edward Deci. It explains why the same person can thrive at one activity and dread another, through three psychological needs. ([02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=167) [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=217) [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=357)) **Q: Does autonomy mean kids can do whatever they want?** A: No. Jax says autonomy means volition, not independence. A child can follow a rule or complete an assigned task and still feel autonomous. ([07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=442) [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=495)) **Q: Do star charts and rewards help motivate children?** A: Jax says research shows consistent rewards ultimately undermine intrinsic motivation. She cites a study where paid puzzle-solvers did far fewer puzzles once payment stopped. She suggests unexpected rewards for the process instead. ([47:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2842) [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2865) [50:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3025)) **Q: Is extrinsic motivation always bad?** A: Jax says no. It becomes a problem when it is externally controlled and the person doesn't understand why. Identified regulation, where the task matters to you, is healthy and is where most people aim to operate. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1302) [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1736)) **Q: Should we expect to be in a flow state all the time?** A: Jax calls that a toxic and unrealistic expectation pushed by social media. She says pure intrinsic motivation happens in micro-moments. ([32:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1947) [33:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1996)) **Q: Why do teenagers procrastinate?** A: Jax says procrastination is a symptom of an unmet need. A task that feels out of your control points to autonomy or competence, while fear of failing points to introjected regulation. ([65:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3949) [66:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3981)) **Q: How can a student who hates a subject become more motivated?** A: Jax suggests aiming to move just one step to the right: find your own reason, find the challenge edge, choose who you spend time with, check your fuel and protect what you love. ([54:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3291) [55:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3311) [61:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3699)) **Q: Should I wait until I feel motivated to start studying?** A: Jax says no. Action comes before motivation, and starting reveals what help you need. ([76:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4568) [76:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4597)) ### Passage: Competence as the feeling of getting better [10:41-12:57, 371 words] Note (AI): Jax redefines competence as a felt sense of progress, explains the Goldilocks zone and uses gaming to show how challenge calibration sustains engagement. Jax Aitchison, guest [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=641): > It doesn't actually, not necessarily, and, and I think that's very important for the, the kids to understand that. This has got nothing to do with your talent. It's got nothing to do with your innate skills that you don't develop. Competence is, is just the feeling, the feeling of getting better at something. and teachers know this, it's, it's part of your learning theory when you study teaching, you are, you're trying to find a sweet spot. People learn best when the Goldilocks zone is in play. So you know yourselves, if you are continually doing something that's too easy, you get bored, you lose interest. If you are continually doing something that's too challenging, You get anxious and you avoid it, right? So we've got to find that sweet spot in the middle to allow you to feel that you are getting more and more competent. And competence isn't about increasing by ten percent on every test. It's about maybe a two percent increase. Then you have competence as long as you are feeling it. and an example that you guys might relate to better is think about gaming. For example, gaming's a good, a good example because gaming, when you play a game, the game is calibrating your ability level as you go. It's, it's a calibrating your ability level in real time. So it's constantly keeping you on the edge of challenge. And isn't gaming one of those things where you just lose time? You sit down and you think, I'll just quickly play for ten minutes and then I'll go and do my homework, and suddenly it's an hour and a half later and you're thinking, oh, you know, what happened? And it's because your competence level is continually calibrated to keep you stimulated at a maximum level. Essentially, so yeah, it's not an attitude problem, it's where your competence level's being calibrated. And remember, competence is also not about somebody else telling you your competence, so it's not about the teacher giving you the gold star, it's about your feeling of competence. You can have fifteen gold stars, but if you don't feel that you're getting any better at it, the competence is still missing. ### Passage: Relatedness, value systems and teachers who champion children [15:42-18:01, 348 words] Note (AI): Explains why the people around a student shape motivation, citing Rita Pearson's TED Talk and separating dislike of a subject from difficulty with a teacher. Jax Aitchison, guest [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=942): > And this was a large part of the research that Ryan and Desi did. we tend to internalize the value systems of the people we relate to. So if we understand them and we feel a connection with people, we internalize the value system. Okay, so this is why your parents don't want you hanging around the wrong people, because they don't want you internalizing those value systems. but if we put it back into the school capacity, there was a lady, who did a TED Talk, Rita Pearson, and her TED Talk was amazing, and it, it was called Every Child Needs a Champion. And that was her whole premise, that you, a, a great teacher will be a champion to certain children, because children don't learn from people they don't like. We can like that or not like that, but it is the way it is. they need to feel connected and related to the people who are trying to impart a value system, a set of pedagogy, whatever it is upon their child. it's, sorry, there just sounds like there's some nonsense going on out there. The thing is, a teacher can be as passionate and as knowledgeable about the subject as anyone. They can be a professor in the subject, but if they can't create relatedness with their children, it doesn't matter how great that lesson is. That value system is not gonna translate across the child, and they're not gonna be able to adopt. I'm sure you've all heard that expression, children do what they see us do, not what they, what we tell them to do. It's the same principle. We enact a value system, they adopt the value system. So for you guys, think of a subject that you've really liked in the past, and think of a subject you've really not liked in the past. Because there's a differentiation between was it the subject, or was it that you couldn't get a grip on the subject because you were struggling with that teacher. Those are two separate things to explore. ### Passage: External and introjected regulation on the spectrum [26:03-28:21, 344 words] Note (AI): Walks through the low end of the spectrum and explains why guilt-, shame- and fear-driven effort looks productive but is brittle, especially in high achievers. Jax Aitchison, guest [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1563): > So hold that in your mind, that one that you have zero investment. The next one up the spectrum would be external regulation. So it's the, the no intent. I can't see the point of this. I do it because I'll get into trouble if I don't do it. I'll get into trouble if I don't do this. If I don't hand in the project, I'm gonna be in detention. If I don't pack the dishwasher, my cell phone's gone for a week. Okay? The problem with that one is the moment that threat disappears, so does the behavior. That, it's not gonna happen. You go away for the weekend, that dishwasher's not getting packed. Okay. So we've got amotivation, external regulation, then we move into introjected regulation. You guys don't have to remember the words, but just think about tasks or subjects or activities that fall into this space. And this is a big one, particularly for teenagers, and most of you are gonna find a lot of what you do in this space. The introjected regulation is, I do it so that I don't feel guilty. I do it so that I don't feel ashamed of myself. I do it because I fear failure. Okay, is that resonating? Gershom Aitchison, host [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1648): > So it's internalized fear that is driving this. Jax Aitchison, guest [27:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1653): > it looks a lot like motivation because it looks like you're sitting at your desk doing a lot of work. And it looks like the right kind of motivation, but your reasoning behind spending those hours at your desk are completely unsustainable. You will burn out at some point if that is your level of motivation for what you are doing. It is not sustainable. Gershom Aitchison, host [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1676): > It also sounds quite fragile. Jax Aitchison, guest [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1677): > It's extremely fragile. It's brittle. one bad grade, one bad test, and everything collapses. It's, it's meltdown, complete meltdown, because you have no, no ability to manage that. yeah, a lot of, a lot of high achieving teenagers run on this introjected regulation, and it works for a while, and it works until it's not working. ### Passage: Why consistent rewards undermine intrinsic motivation [46:59-48:57, 313 words] Note (AI): Covers the Ryan and Deci puzzle-payment study and a sales-bonus example, giving parents and managers the research case against star charts and routine rewards. Jax Aitchison, guest [46:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2819): > Yeah, and this one's surprising. It's very counterintuitive. Yeah, teachers and parents, we know, we fall into this all the time. Especially when our children are little, if you're teaching a younger grade or when your children are little with the star charts and, and that sort of thing, right? And a lot of the parents, yeah, make it visual, put it on the wall, give them stars. The research actually shows that giving rewards consistently ultimately undermines intrinsic motivation. And parents for your workplace, it's the same thing. When you continually give rewards, it undermines the intrinsic motivation. So Ryan and Desi, one of their, one of the studies they did was they took people who were very good at solving puzzles, they loved to solve puzzles, and they started paying them for every puzzle that they solved. When the study ended, or when the, when they said, right, the payment phase is over, people reported doing far fewer puzzles going forward. They were like, I'm not getting paid anymore, so what's the point? anyone who's offered, we've got this, we wanna hit the sales target, so the person who hits the sales target gets a five thousand rand bonus this month, hypothetically. And then six months later you run the same thing, and the person goes, yeah, but, you know, it was five thousand rand last time, why is it not five and a half thousand this time? Now you're not pushing your sales because you love what you do, and you invested in the product you're selling, and it, it aligns with, all of those things have gone away. So you've actually completely undermined your intrinsic motivation at that point. So taking it to children, we can put the stars on the chart, but the moment you take the stars away, they're going, well, why would I do that then? ### Passage: Giving reasons without negotiating: autonomy-supportive parenting [68:52-70:29, 306 words] Note (AI): Practical scripts for parents: explain rules, keep the guardrails in place and acknowledge feelings, without handing the rules over to negotiation. Jax Aitchison, guest [68:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4132): > one of the most powerful things that a parent can do is give reasons You can give reasons for the instructions that you are giving, because remember, autonomy-supportive parenting isn't just taking the rules away. The boundaries have to be there. Your child doesn't feel safe if you remove the guardrails. They, they operate in an optimal space when they feel safe. And as the adult, that's your job to, to keep the guardrails in place and let them bounce in between. So autonomy-supportive parenting isn't saying you can do whatever you like. This is how we do things here. I'll discuss it with you. Up to a point, you know, there are going to be the odd things every now and then, well, why can't we go on holiday to the Maldives for ten days? Well, you know what, that one's above your pay grade. That's okay too. You're allowed to say that as parents. When it comes to why do I have to do my homework, why do I have to pack the dishwasher, all this, you know, give them the reasons and then move on. They don't get to negotiate their reasons with you because it's your house. And they're not running it, you are. You are the adult in the room. I get that you don't love it. I hear you. I hear that this is hard for you. I, I hear you. I can see that it's hard for you. But we can't take it away. I can't make it go away. I can help you find a way to work with this. Let's have a conversation. I can't have a conversation when you're screaming in my ear. When you stop screaming in my ear, we can talk. I can't have this conversation when you're crying so hard that you've got ### Passage: Demotivation is a missing need; action precedes motivation [74:45-76:46, 345 words] Note (AI): Jax tells students that demotivation is not laziness, shows how avoidance snowballs, and closes with the claim that starting comes before feeling motivated. Jax Aitchison, guest [74:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4485): > Well, I think for you guys, the most important thing to remember is if you are feeling demotivated about certain subjects, certain activities that you have to do, you, you don't feel that because you are lazy. You don't feel that because you are stupid. You don't feel that because you aren't getting it right. That's not the case. You're feeling it because one of those three nutrients is probably missing, and you just need to identify what it is, and then it can be worked on, and it can, it, we can get you further up. You can work yourself further up that ladder by starting with the question, what's missing? I'm not sure. I can't figure it out. Come and talk to one of your teachers. We spend five hours training on this over the holidays. Your teachers have this information, and they can help you with this now. A lot of the time you go into avoidance mode when you are very demotivated. You, you try and avoid more and more and more, and then your anxiety grows because now you're missing homework and you've missed an SBA and now it just compounds, compounds. So your anxiety is going up and it snowballs into this whole monster that it never needed to be in the first place. If you had just identified, why am I so demotivated right now? And there's one more thing I want to say to you that is key to this. A lot of the time you're sitting around waiting to feel motivated before you start the action. You've got it back to front. Action comes before motivation. When you start the activity, you realize, oh, I maybe don't have the skills that I need to finish this, or I'm struggling with that. Then I can go and get the right help at the right time to fix that. But if you're waiting for motivation to fall out of the ether and smack you on the head, you're gonna be waiting a very long time. Action precedes motivation. ### Quotes > "somebody with no volition is like a wheelbarrow. They've got to be picked up by somebody else and pushed around" >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=464) > "You can have fifteen gold stars, but if you don't feel that you're getting any better at it, the competence is still missing." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=772) > "Teenagers, your parents are right. Your parents are right, okay." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=934) > "children don't learn from people they don't like. We can like that or not like that, but it is the way it is." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=992) > "a lot of high achieving teenagers run on this introjected regulation, and it works for a while, and it works until it's not working." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1693) > "The word should is one of the most toxic words in the English language, in my opinion." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [43:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2591) > "Remember, we are the average of the five people we spend the most time with." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [59:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3558) > "If your fuel is guilt, shame, and fear, it is a toxic fuel." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3584) > "Your child doesn't feel safe if you remove the guardrails." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [69:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4146) > "Teenagers need to feel seen and heard. When they feel seen and heard, it does kind of change the landscape a little bit." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [70:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4256) > "But if you're waiting for motivation to fall out of the ether and smack you on the head, you're gonna be waiting a very long time. Action precedes motivation." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · [76:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4597) ### Claims > "So Mrs. Aitchison has spent five or six hours training our teachers in Self-Determination Theory. It's one of Edu Inc's four, core pedagogical underpinnings, and it speaks to our IQ, AQ, and EQ." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Self-determination theory · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=31) > "Cause the interesting thing here is that this is the same person, same brain, But a completely different experience in those two activities. And self-determination theory is decades worth of research explaining the science of that gap in your brain." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Self-determination theory · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=167) > "So self-determination theory is essentially the theory of motivation and it was developed by two psychologists, Richard Ryan and Edward Deci." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Self-determination theory · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=217) > "And what they found was it's got nothing to do with talent, it's got nothing to do with intelligence, it's about certain conditions that need to be met in that space." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Self-determination theory · [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=249) > "what the neuroscience shows is that every single human being's brain is designed to be curious, to be self-motivated, and to be vital." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Self-determination theory · [04:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=277) > "the three needs are autonomy, and I'll explain what they are shortly. It's autonomy, it's competence, and it's relatedness. There are those three factors that we need to see in any situation for us to feel a level of motivation." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=357) > "essentially, autonomy also doesn't mean independence. Autonomy means volition. It's not independence to just go and do whatever you feel like doing. It's the volition to get something done." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=442) > "So when you have autonomy, you can still be following a rule. You can still be following a structure or something. Your parent might have asked you to do something. A teacher may have asked you to complete an assessment." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=495) > "when you start taking this into the workplace and you're wondering why your staff are not working autonomously, you have to hold the mirror up and ask yourself, well, what am I doing to allow autonomy or create autonomy in the space?" >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=582) > "This has got nothing to do with your talent. It's got nothing to do with your innate skills that you don't develop. Competence is, is just the feeling, the feeling of getting better at something." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=646) > "if you are continually doing something that's too easy, you get bored, you lose interest. If you are continually doing something that's too challenging, You get anxious and you avoid it, right? So we've got to find that sweet spot in the middle to allow you to feel that you are getting more and more competent." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=678) > "when you play a game, the game is calibrating your ability level as you go. It's, it's a calibrating your ability level in real time. So it's constantly keeping you on the edge of challenge." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=720) > "remember, competence is also not about somebody else telling you your competence, so it's not about the teacher giving you the gold star, it's about your feeling of competence." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=762) > "And one of the principles is we learn to do the work by doing the work. So we do the work, it's meaningful, it's hard enough that when we achieve it, we get the good kick, and it actually creates that feeling of competence" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Three psychological needs · [14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=849) > "we tend to internalize the value systems of the people we relate to. So if we understand them and we feel a connection with people, we internalize the value system." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=946) > "there was a lady, who did a TED Talk, Rita Pearson, and her TED Talk was amazing, and it, it was called Every Child Needs a Champion." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=973) > "a teacher can be as passionate and as knowledgeable about the subject as anyone. They can be a professor in the subject, but if they can't create relatedness with their children, it doesn't matter how great that lesson is." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Three psychological needs · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1025) > "They can adopt other value systems, but the culture of Edu Inc is to question, to critically analyze, and create your own value system. And that's why teenagers are often in conflict with authority and their parents." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Three psychological needs · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1095) > "the crucial distinction that I think people maybe underestimate here is that not all extrinsic motivation is a bad thing. It's not all bad, it's not that binary," >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1242) > "extrinsic motivation, motivation becomes bad when it is externally controlled. In other words, when you have no idea why you are doing it," >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [21:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1302) > "I am not inviting you to weaponize the why against your parents or your teachers. That's not what we're discussing here, okay? We're not weaponizing the theory." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1457) > "So the spectrum that Ryan, Ryan, and Desi came up with that we all use to understand the levels is essentially a six-stage, spectrum." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1516) > "The next one up the spectrum would be external regulation. So it's the, the no intent. I can't see the point of this. I do it because I'll get into trouble if I don't do it." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1568) > "The introjected regulation is, I do it so that I don't feel guilty. I do it so that I don't feel ashamed of myself. I do it because I fear failure." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1630) > "it looks a lot like motivation because it looks like you're sitting at your desk doing a lot of work. And it looks like the right kind of motivation, but your reasoning behind spending those hours at your desk are completely unsustainable." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [27:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1653) > "believe it or not, this is the one where we tend to operate at in our workplace and in school, and it's actually the one we're aiming for most of the time." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1736) > "maths is very, very difficult for me. I need to put a lot of hours in to get, to maintain the marks I need to maintain for maths. However, I really want to be an engineer. So I'm going to put the hours in." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1766) > "integrated regulation is, I do this because it's just part of who I am. It, it completely aligns with my value system, and it's the way I do it." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [31:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1908) > "Social media will try and tell us that we're supposed to be operating there all the time. It's a completely toxic and unrealistic expectation." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [32:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1947) > "It's MicroMoments. it's definitely MicroMoments. Whether it's your job, whether it's school, whether it's your gaming, whether it, it doesn't matter what it is, you're gonna have MicroMoments." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [33:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=1996) > "If we can sit in that introjected to identified space, we are in a healthy space." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2108) > "I don't think in all my years of working with kids, I've ever gone into an exam session where children have not felt anxious and fearful. That's a normal experience, right? But we understand that In a healthy individual, that fear and anxiety before an exam is eustress." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [35:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2128) > "When you're an adult, you're going, when was the last time I did something I really loved? And you're struggling to think of it. That's a problem." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Motivation spectrum · [39:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2376) > "Motivation is not about things. That's just an opinion. Activities are where motivation comes in, because it's the action that needs motivation." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Motivation spectrum · [40:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2406) > "What kills the motivation, and it often comes from a place of good intention, is what can be perceived as surveillance, because that gets perceived as control." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2548) > "The word should is one of the most toxic words in the English language, in my opinion. you should do this, you should do that, you should feel like this, you should look like that." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [43:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2591) > "But as long as you understand that it, it's going to be a short term thing, the moment you remove the threat, the behavior's going to. Okay. So we need to try and find more sustainable options in that space." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [44:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2649) > "they definitely kill autonomy, those kind of statements, those should statements and threats and that sort of thing. They kill autonomy, they kill competence. and they definitely kill relatedness. That's the first one to go." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [44:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2683) > "So why do I have, why do I have to pack the dishwasher every night? Because you're a member of this family. That's really all the answer that you need." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [45:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2752) > "The research actually shows that giving rewards consistently ultimately undermines intrinsic motivation. And parents for your workplace, it's the same thing." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Rewards and motivation · [47:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2842) > "they took people who were very good at solving puzzles, they loved to solve puzzles, and they started paying them for every puzzle that they solved. When the study ended, or when the, when they said, right, the payment phase is over, people reported doing far fewer puzzles going forward." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Rewards and motivation · [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2865) > "The problem with this is the nature of how transactional the relationship becomes. Whether it's between the parent and the child, the employer and the employee, and, and the danger is the long-term implication of that." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Rewards and motivation · [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=2945) > "No, I'm not saying don't do it, but it should never be, contrived that it is consistent, consistent, consist, it should be unexpected." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Rewards and motivation · [50:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3025) > "the key, the absolute key here is rewarding the process, not the result. Thank you for packing the dishwasher. It really helps me when I have to start cooking the next meal." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Rewards and motivation · [53:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3196) > "We are not trying to get you from a position of amotivation or very low motivation all the way up to intrinsic. We're just trying to get you to move one step to the right. That's enough." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [54:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3291) > "One of the biggest things, find your reason for doing it, your reason. Nobody else's. Why do you sit down and do this task?" >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [55:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3311) > "I remember tutoring years and years and years ago, I was tutoring, a kid and he was, he ended up getting the highest math mark in Dane Fern College in Matric that year." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [57:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3477) > "Choose your room, that's what they call it. When you are asking yourself, who do I want to spend my time with, they're saying, choose your room, and they mean, who's in the room with you?" >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [59:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3544) > "If your fuel is guilt, shame, and fear, it is a toxic fuel. It will keep you going for a little while, and then it's gonna, it's gonna do you in." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3584) > "Protect the things you already love. So if you find deep joy in drawing or music or whatever it is, you protect that. You carve time out to engage in it." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [60:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3653) > "So let me recap. Find your reason for doing it. Find your challenge edge. Choose your room very carefully. Consider the fuel that you are running on. Is it the right fuel? And protect what you love." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Moving up the spectrum · [61:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3699) > "if you're procrastinating because this task feels totally out of your control, you're actually experience an autonomy problem. You, you, or a competence problem. if you're procrastinating because you're terrified of failing and of what this is going to say about you, you're sitting in an introjected space and we need to move up a space." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Procrastination and action · [65:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3949) > "It's not, it doesn't stand on its own. It's, it's a result of, it's a symptom of something not working in the three connectedness, relatedness, and autonomy steps." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Procrastination and action · [66:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=3981) > "autonomy-supportive parenting isn't just taking the rules away. The boundaries have to be there. Your child doesn't feel safe if you remove the guardrails." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [69:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4141) > "Do you want to do it on Saturday morning or Sunday morning? Offering the choice gives autonomy. So they get to choose which one works for them. That's the autonomy part, but you are still keeping the structure and the framework." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [71:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4295) > "The most powerful vehicle for all of this to work is the relationship you have with your child." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Autonomy-supportive parenting · [72:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4374) > "you, you don't feel that because you are lazy. You don't feel that because you are stupid. You don't feel that because you aren't getting it right. That's not the case. You're feeling it because one of those three nutrients is probably missing," >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Procrastination and action · [74:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4497) > "We spend five hours training on this over the holidays. Your teachers have this information, and they can help you with this now." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Self-determination theory · [75:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4531) > "A lot of the time you're sitting around waiting to feel motivated before you start the action. You've got it back to front. Action comes before motivation." >, Jax Aitchison, guest · topic: Procrastination and action · [76:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4568) > "This is about giving you tools so that you can take control and grow and understand yourself better. This is where EQ and AQ meet." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Self-determination theory · [77:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1721354_high.mp3#t=4663) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Jax Aitchison (Edu Inc | Educator and Self-Determination Theory Specialist) unpacks SDT for students, parents and teachers This fireside chat is for the entire Edu Inc community - students, parents, and teachers - and gives everyone a shared vocabulary around self-determination theory (SDT) so that motivation can be understood, discussed, and improved at home and in the classroom. Hosted by Gershom alongside Mrs Aitchison, who has already trained Edu Inc's teaching staff in SDT, this conversation brings that same framework directly to the people it affects most. Jax Aitchison walks through the foundational work of psychologists Richard Ryan and Edward Deci, explaining why motivation has nothing to do with talent or intelligence and everything to do with three psychological needs: autonomy (volition, not just independence), competence (the feeling of getting better, not a fixed skill level), and relatedness (the proven impact of who you surround yourself with). She unpacks why every human brain is wired to be curious, vital, and self-motivated - and what conditions cause that to break down. The episode maps the full motivation spectrum from amotivation through external regulation, introjected regulation (guilt, shame, fear), identified regulation, integrated regulation, and intrinsic motivation - explaining what each stage looks and feels like for a student, a parent, and a teacher. Gershom and Jax are honest that flow state and pure intrinsic motivation are MicroMoments, not a permanent condition, and that healthy functioning mostly means operating in the identified regulation zone. For parents, the episode delivers specific, practical guidance: why the word 'should' is one of the most toxic motivation killers in the English language; why consistent rewards and star charts ultimately undermine intrinsic motivation (the Ryan and Deci puzzle-payment study); why surveillance feels like control and kills autonomy; how to give reasons for rules without negotiating them away; and why autonomy-supportive parenting means keeping guardrails in place while offering genuine choices within them. Jax also explains why rewarding the process rather than the result is the single most important shift a parent or teacher can make. For students, Jax offers five concrete steps to move one place to the right on the motivation spectrum: find your own reason for doing a task; find your challenge edge (the Goldilocks zone between boredom and anxiety); choose your room carefully because we internalise the value systems of the people we spend time with; notice whether your fuel is guilt and shame or genuine purpose; and protect the activities that already bring you joy. Procrastination is reframed not as a character flaw but as a diagnostic symptom of an unmet need in autonomy, competence, or relatedness. And the episode closes with one of the most counter-intuitive insights in the research: action comes before motivation, not the other way around. www.linkedin.com · selfdeterminationtheory.org · www.ted.com · Watch this episode on YT · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Small Schools by Design: Why Size, Relationships and Culture Beat Scale - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2026-05-15-small-schools-by-design-why-size/ - Date: 2026-05-15 (as at 2026-05-15) - Guest: Christian Convence, Ishan Singh, Marc Loon - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Why small schools exist, Relationships and community, Socialisation and sport myths, German school system, Intentional pedagogy and culture, IQ, EQ and AQ, Exchange programmes, School relevance - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1676267 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Christian Convence - head · Privater Schule Convince · near Aachen in Germany - Family started the school in 2002 with four kids after his father resigned as a state headmaster in 1995; bought a 1927 monastery in 2004; now 150 students. Former German national diving team member; runs South Africa exchange programme. In their own words: > "So, and we, officially we, we are involved in this school since 2007. So I finished my degree in 2009, but I already started 2007 in some, lessons for, geography." [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=344) > "I was, in the national team of diving in Germany, and I was doing springboard, three meter springboard and ten meter platform." [64:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3883) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Marc Loon - Kairos School of Inquiry - Started Kairos School of Inquiry in 2011 with three children; first teaching job was an unpaid post in rural Rajasthan, India; met Marshall Rosenberg, whose nonviolent communication shapes the school's curriculum. In their own words: > "I'm Mark Loon, I'm from Kairos School of Inquiry and we started in 2011, so two years before you." [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1554) > "my first teaching job was an unpaid post in rural Rajasthan in India. And I loved it and it was the most incredible, inspiring space because basically I was totally free to teach and without curriculum, pressures and I was, I was very free to be a teacher." [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1686) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Gershom Aitchison of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12 with small classes by design, talks with German school head Christian Convence about why small schools exist. Christian recounts his family's school from 1995 to a deliberate 150 students and explains how the German Abitur system lets his school give students a second chance. Two other small-school heads, Edu Inc students, teachers, parents and education consultants address objections about socialisation, sport and credentials. Gershom cites research arguing class size alone does not improve results without intentional pedagogy and culture, and closes by asking what a community would lose if its school disappeared. **Key ideas** - Christian says his school has capacity for about 350 students but deliberately stays at 150 so it can support each child as needed. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=122) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=283)) - Gershom cites Stellenbosch and Gates Foundation research to argue small classes only work with a pedagogical backbone and an intentional culture. ([29:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1779) [29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1791) [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1836) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1859)) - Christian explains that because the Abitur is run and marked by government, students can fail internally and still progress, giving gymnasium dropouts a second chance. ([13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=801) [14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=843)) - Students describe repeating a grade to close knowledge gaps and then doing well academically. ([37:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2235) [37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2258) [41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2479)) - Students and Gershom argue that fewer, closer friendships across grades force pupils to resolve conflict rather than walk away. ([38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2309) [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2583) [44:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2657)) - Ishan Singh presents Edu Inc's IQ, EQ and AQ trinity, arguing EQ and AQ can grow significantly and decide success beyond marks. ([50:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3010) [51:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3096) [52:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3139)) - Lauren Edmonds and Marc Loon say small schools each follow a niche and are pushed to innovate because they are not replicas of big schools. ([24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1498) [31:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1880)) - Gershom argues small schools must justify their existence through relevance, framed as what a community would lose if the school disappeared. ([31:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1903) [70:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4236)) **Lessons** - Gershom suggests judging a small school by its pedagogy and culture, since research he cites shows reduced class size alone does not improve results. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1791) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1859)) - Philip's experience suggests a trial week can reveal whether a child fits, even when the child initially refuses to go. ([58:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3505) [59:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3591)) - JP and Jesse's stories indicate that repeating a grade to close gaps can rebuild confidence and results. ([37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2258) [41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2479)) - Christian's tennis-player story shows a flexible school can let a high-level athlete train and still pass Matric as a plan B. ([75:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4530)) - Gershom notes a small school that is not the right fit can recommend another school with confidence rather than being forced to take the child. ([76:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4600)) **Who it's for:** Parents weighing a small private school, school heads and teachers in small independent schools, and professionals working with children's wellbeing who want first-hand voices from heads, students, teachers and parents on socialisation, sport, academics and school culture. **Facts stated in the episode** - Christian's father resigned as a state headmaster in 1995; the private school started in 2002 with four kids. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=124) [02:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=174)) - Christian's school has capacity for about 350 students but has 150. ([04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=283)) - Christian says German private schools can be up to 97 percent government funded. ([06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=401)) - Germany has sixteen provinces with sixteen school systems, according to Christian. ([07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=451)) - Gershom says the Gates Foundation put one point five billion into small schools in the US. ([30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1836)) - Gershom defines small schools as one class per grade and about 150 students, matching Dunbar's number. ([17:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1042)) - About three hundred kids have travelled with Christian to South Africa across 22 or 23 exchanges. ([68:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4097)) - Lauren Edmonds started her school in 2013 and takes no more than 20 children. ([23:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1425)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Do children at small schools miss out on socialising?** A: Students say no: Jesse describes a tight-knit class where problems are aired with a teacher, Miles says friendships are fewer but more authentic, and Gershom argues pupils learn to work through conflict instead of burning bridges. ([37:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2235) [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2309) [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2583) [44:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2657)) **Q: Do smaller class sizes alone improve school results?** A: Gershom cites Stellenbosch University research that reducing class size on its own does not, and Gates Foundation-funded small schools where results depended on the intentionality behind pedagogy and culture. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1791) [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1836) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1859)) **Q: Why did Christian Convence's family start their own school in Germany?** A: Christian says his father, a state headmaster for about 25 years, was frustrated at repeatedly closing good schools because of policy, so the family left the state system, starting with coaching and then a school in 2002. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=122) [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=124) [02:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=174) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=531)) **Q: Can a German student who failed at the gymnasium still get the Abitur?** A: Christian says yes at his school: the Abitur is run by government, so internal results do not count and students who fail at the gymnasium can still prepare with his school and sit it. ([13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=801) [14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=843)) **Q: What does IQ, EQ, AQ mean at Edu Inc?** A: Ishan Singh calls it Edu Inc's holy trinity: IQ changes little over life, but EQ (the emotional intelligence to understand yourself and your impact on others) and AQ (the mental discipline to sit down and get the work done even when you don't feel like it) can grow significantly and determine success beyond distinctions. ([50:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3010) [51:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3096) [52:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3139)) **Q: Do small schools offer sport?** A: Gershom calls the no-sport claim a fallacy, citing Miles's archery honours and a national record. Christian says German schools have no sport lessons because sport happens in clubs, and describes supporting a national-level tennis player. ([45:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2749) [75:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4530)) **Q: Why are more small schools opening?** A: Mary attributes it partly to politics in state education and a failure to provide a worthwhile education. Christian reports weekly applications from gymnasium students since last January. ([21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1273) [54:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3266)) **Q: What question should every small school be able to answer?** A: Gershom poses it: if your school disappeared tomorrow, what would your community lose that no big school could replace? He says a school that cannot answer has no purpose. ([31:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1903) [70:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4236)) ### Passage: Christian's family school origin story, 1995 to 150 students [02:02-05:02, 499 words] Note (AI): The guest's full founding story: a father tired of closing schools, a coaching institution, four pupils, a 1927 monastery and a deliberate cap well below capacity. Christian Convence, guest [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=122): > Yeah, how it starts our, started our journey. In 1995, my father more or less resigned from his position as a headmaster from state schools. He was, paid by government for twenty, yeah, twenty five years, and he was always busy to close down schools. So, and he was tired of it because he always took the future for the kids. That is why he said, no, I'm fed up with it, so I want to do my own thing. So in the beginning, we were not a, private school. We have been a coaching institution. And, at the peak time, we had about 180 different schools in our region, and we supported around about 300 students, from these schools, from primary school up to high school, all type of, schools and, ages. And from this, of course, our, private school. We started in 2002. In total, it was four kids. So that was our, beginning. So we extended quite fast. after two more years, we had already 65 students, so we had to, find a new, accommodation for our school. So we bought in 2004 an old monastery that was built in 1927, and it was important, in history for, during the Second World War, because our village is right situated next to the border to Belgium, and it was the very first, spot of Germany. That was freed by the Allies. And in our region, that was the most intense battlefield for the Allies, Hürtgenwald. Everybody have heard about it, I think. Twenty thousand, more than twenty thousand, Allies died, in the battle against the German Nazis. But our monastery was at this time a hospital for German and Allied soldiers at the same time, and so it's a big history later on. It was a kindergarten, then it was, a kind of hospital, and then a station to give birth and all that stuff. so it's, lots of history in this, old building. When we bought it in 2004, and we kept it more or less like it was from the outside. Inside, of course, we had to swap it a little bit that the classes were perfect for our, ideas, because we have maximum 15 kids in one class, and it was tiny, rooms we had to extend a little bit, and then, we started, in 2005 already in this new building with, 65 kids. And then, later on in 2009, we already had about 100 students. It was too small, so we, extended our school that we, built up a new building right next to it. It's a modern one, and we use it now since 2010. So from then on, We have capacity of about three hundred fifty students, but, this is a goal we don't want to achieve. We want to have space. We want to be aware of that we, can support the kids how they need, and yeah, actual, actual, amount of students we have is one hundred fifty kids. ### Passage: How the German Abitur gives struggling students a second chance [13:21-15:43, 381 words] Note (AI): Explains why external government exams let Christian's school prepare students freely, including those who failed at the gymnasium, and lists the eight Abitur subjects. Christian Convence, guest [13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=801): > So that is a big advantage we have as a, private Ergänzungsschule, how it's called in our province, because we, our duty is to fulfill the curriculum and prepare the kids for the final exams in grade ten and grade thirteen. But the metric test will be run by government. So they are invited, they have to apply for this, final test. Then they are invited, they come to know of the teachers who will, do the tests or will mark the test, be are not involved in the final results and so on. So the advantage is everything that happens in our school is not part of the metric So they can mess up, they can fail as much as they like, I just have to see a movement, and this is the flexibility we have, and this is also an advantage for some of the students who fail at the gymnasium, in Germany, and they can't go on, but they still have a chance to go on with us and still do the, the Abitur, so the Matric, and, this is the advantage we have, their flexibility, because we just prepare, they get the feedback, what is good, what is bad, where we have to work on, and where we need more time, or hopefully everything is running fine, and you go for it, and that's fine, because application for the Abitur will be one year in advance, so we have to apply for it, in the end of the school term, before that, just before the summer holidays, and then they are tested in eight subjects, it will be mathematics, German, English, history, compulsory, they have to do a second foreign language, we, support French and Spanish, and the Chinese have the chance to do, Chinese as a second foreign language, so that's the joker. And, then we also have, biology, physics, geo- geography, and social, economics. These are the subjects we, we are teaching it. So as a small school, I mean, we have a variety of, subjects, yeah, but, we have to concentrate, focus on some of them so that we, can support it, because two and a half years for metric, I tell you guys, is not a long time. You have to wake up. ### Passage: Research: class size alone does not improve results [29:39-32:10, 398 words] Note (AI): Gershom's worked argument citing Stellenbosch and Gates Foundation research that intentional pedagogy and culture, not size, make the difference, with Marc's point on innovation. Gershom Aitchison, host [29:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1779): > It's interesting that that all of us are talking about not just being a small school for the sake of being a small school there's in in the research for this this article out of South Africa specifically a Stellenbosch University research saying that reducing class sizes on its own doesn't improve results. It's reducing the class sizes, having a specific pedagogical goal and, mindset in how you are going to facilitate the curriculum, and then creating an intentional culture within your school, that being relationship-based, that being family-based, that being creating a space for kids to come to, in your case, the non, you know, the nonverbal, sorry, how did you articulate, nonviolent, communication, that creates the magic. If it just, and it was also, emphasized the, you know, the Gates Foundation put one point five billion into funding small schools in the US, and some of them had phenomenal results, you know, Bloom's Two Sigma results, you know, but there are other schools that didn't. They just stayed exactly the same, and the research, the research showed that it was because of the intention, intentionality behind the pedagogy and the culture of the school that made the difference. So starting a small school and people saying small numbers in classes are the res, what results in improvement is not the default. There has to be a culture and a pedagogical backbone to make that actually work. Yes, Marc. Marc Loon, guest [31:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1875): > Gershom, I think there's, there's the thing about small schools that because we are not the norm, and in, because we're not just simply a, a replication of a big school that suddenly pops up, we are pushed to innovate. Yes. There, there is an intrinsic pressure in order to, to survive, in order to be distinctive and, and push ourselves to, to, to push the envelope. Gershom Aitchison, host [31:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1900): > I'll take that one step further and say that We have to justify our relevance or our existence through our relevance, and that innovation is driven not just for the sake of innovation, it's driven to be remain relevant in society, and we are able to respond to society's needs better than what big schools are. Because we are more nimble, and our existence is about staying relevant for our families and communities, that's why the innovation takes place, not because we just want to innovate for the sake of innovation. ### Passage: Jesse on repeating a grade and tight-knit classes [37:15-38:50, 274 words] Note (AI): A student's unscripted account of regaining confidence, reaching the top of the class and learning to resolve conflict with teachers' help. Jesse, audience member [37:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2235): > So, I joined the school in, say, grade five. And beforehand I had no confidence in myself the larger schools like completely destroyed me I didn't think I could do math my english was falling behind and I just didn't think that I was gonna make it through the school system and then I came to Edu Inc and Miss Day sat me down and was like you can go back a grade and you're gonna do well or you're gonna struggle through but either way you're gonna make it and after that I was like well I'll go back a grade went back a grade and well now I I do very well you could say top of the class but and then as for the like socializing I think small schools are So much better because you hang out with a bunch of people that you might not necessarily hang out with if you were anywhere else. And you're put into these situations, like I'm put into a class of some pretty crazy people, but we all get along and we all work things out amongst each other and we're incredibly tightly knit and it causes a very tight bond and any problems that we have, we can always sit down with a teacher and just air it out where in a public school you might just be told like, I don't know, go outside, if you keep doing this, we're going to have to send you to detention or you're going to have to leave the school, but like here we can just air out our concerns and have a civil discussion. ### Passage: Ishan Singh on teaching and the IQ, EQ, AQ trinity [50:10-52:33, 406 words] Note (AI): A teacher explains adapting each lesson to the learners and Edu Inc's IQ, EQ and AQ framework for success beyond marks. Ishan Singh, guest [50:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3010): > Teaching in a small school is not, it's not about the teacher's enjoyment of the curriculum. It's about finding ways every day or you know every time you teach a topic, finding different ways of presenting that so that it's meaningful to the learner. And you you could teach the same topic several times, but each time you're doing it, it's in an entirely different way. And so it's, it doesn't become like stale. You know, you're finding different ways because the group of kids that you're teaching are completely different and have different needs. So it's not, it's not about the teacher just putting on the show. It's really directed to the learners, which is then beneficial to you as a teacher in terms of your pedagogy, and parallel to that, you as a teacher in terms of your ability to assess, you know, which I think are two different things. Teaching almost like the ability to convey it, but then assessing, getting that feedback back to you. So academically, it's, you know, it's an enjoyable experience. And then the second thing is, you know, a phrase or a concept that I use almost daily in conversations is what I refer to as our holy trinity here at Edu Inc. It's the, you know, the IQ, EQ, AQ. And we refer to it so often. It's part of our, one of our values and part of our daily conversations. everyone has their IQ. And you might be able to change that by a few points in the course of your lifetime, but your Q and A Q you can change or increase significantly. And a child may get nine distinctions and then go on to university like you said and struggle because of the underdeveloped E Q and A Q. In a small school like Edu Inc, we can put in enough time and effort into developing the E Q and A Q so that kids leave regardless of what the I Q is, they will be successful in whatever they choose to do. And I think that's, that's reassuring. You know, if you have some massive I Q, good for you. But without that strong, like tractor wheels, of I Q, E Q and A Q supporting you, that's not going to just translate into success. And in a space like this, we can put in, put in the, the time and effort into that. ### Passage: A parent's two trial-week stories [58:25-60:37, 322 words] Note (AI): A parent describes both children's trial weeks, including a daughter who refused to attend then loved it, and credits the mentorship approach. Philip, audience member [58:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3505): > So when our son came from remedial education in grade four to Edu Inc, we we were just looking at a school with small classes, simple. And Gershom said, send him on a trial week. So anyway, he came for a trial week. Jesse was his mentor, mentor I think. And this child cried the whole day. He wouldn't let me go. Eventually Gershom said, just get out of here. Come fetch him at two fifteen. Came to fetch him at two fifteen. He was the happiest kid I've ever met. And I could, and I don't know what it was, but it, and I'll come back to figuring out what it was later. Then he's been here for four years and he's been very content. He's, he's had his issues, but he's fitted in and he's happy to come to school. Then our daughter went through a bad patch at college, a bit of bullying that was going on at the college she was at, I'm not going to mention names, and, anyway, I contacted Gershom, he said, let her come and do a trial week. But before the trial week was offered to her, Megan and I had spoken to her in detail about, coming to Edu Inc with her brother, and she said, I would rather die than come to my brother's school. I will not go to Edu Inc. Anyway, she came for the trial week, and I can't remember who her mentor was, but, come the end of the day, she absolutely loved it, and she went back, and now she's been there for over two months. And the only thing I can, like, when I say I can't put my finger on it, Is that the school offers a mentorship approach. So like you mentored our son, someone mentored Jamie, they just got made to feel comfortable and accepted, which I don't think they got anywhere else really. ### Quotes > "they know I I'm in my school from seven to seven and they just sit and join and have a coffee with me" >, Christian Convence, guest · [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1114) > "I was a mom, and I just felt the system was letting me down over and over again, and eventually I said, never mind, I'll do it myself." >, Lauren Edmonds, intro voice or played clip · [24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1486) > "I held the book up to, in my, in front of me and I said, this book is gonna change my life." >, Marc Loon, guest · [29:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1741) > "more authentic relationships than just the bare superficial, oh, your friend number 200 of 3,000." >, Miles, audience member · [43:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2593) > "without that strong, like tractor wheels, of I Q, E Q and A Q supporting you, that's not going to just translate into success." >, Ishan Singh, guest · [52:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3139) > "Big schools, small schools, it's just about being different. It it can never be the versus." >, Mary, audience member · [56:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3377) > "I would rather die than come to my brother's school." >, Philip, audience member · [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3592) > "I'm looking for happy children, and my two children are happy. They can't wait to come to school." >, Megan, audience member · [61:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3682) > "We don't care just how much water you've got in the dam, but can you access that water through being able to apply yourself and work hard" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [63:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3799) > "it's not an issue of size of a school to get friends, and relationship. It's a issue of, try it." >, Christian Convence, guest · [67:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4044) > "if your school disappeared tomorrow, what would your community lose that no big school could replace?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [70:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4236) ### Claims > "In 1995, my father more or less resigned from his position as a headmaster from state schools. He was, paid by government for twenty, yeah, twenty five years, and he was always busy to close down schools." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Why small schools exist · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=124) > "We started in 2002. In total, it was four kids. So that was our, beginning. So we extended quite fast. after two more years, we had already 65 students, so we had to, find a new, accommodation for our school." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Why small schools exist · [02:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=174) > "So from then on, We have capacity of about three hundred fifty students, but, this is a goal we don't want to achieve. We want to have space. We want to be aware of that we, can support the kids how they need, and yeah, actual, actual, amount of students we have is one hundred fifty kids." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Relationships and community · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=283) > "So, and we, officially we, we are involved in this school since 2007. So I finished my degree in 2009, but I already started 2007 in some, lessons for, geography." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Why small schools exist · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=344) > "Even when it's called private school, it's runs by, a person or run by, by church mainly, it's paid up to ninety-seven percent, from government by taxes." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: German school system · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=401) > "We can decide all things that is important to run a good school, decide which teacher we will take, decide which kid can come or has to leave because it's not fitting in." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: German school system · [07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=432) > "Because in Germany, we have sixteen different provinces, sixteen different school systems, all the province has their own rules for that. It's more, more difficult to change from one province to another province than going from Germany to South Africa to, to find a school." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: German school system · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=451) > "we just saw how tiring it was for my dad, and he was so frustrated, that every time he was running a good, school, he had to close it down because of policy." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Why small schools exist · [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=531) > "So they can mess up, they can fail as much as they like, I just have to see a movement, and this is the flexibility we have, and this is also an advantage for some of the students who fail at the gymnasium, in Germany, and they can't go on, but they still have a chance to go on with us and still do the, the Abitur," >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: German school system · [14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=843) > "we also started in the extra lesson space. you know, we started with Kip McGrath, and we had two centers, and we started in 2007 with them and built it up, and it was through the parents saying, will you please, you know, teach my kids, they're learning more with you in 80 minutes." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Why small schools exist · [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1001) > "Small schools are defined as one class per grade and plus minus 150 students. And it's interesting because that's Dunbar's number," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Relationships and community · [17:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1042) > "So some of the kids at our school who are preparing for the Abitur, they stay after the normal classes a longer period because they know I I'm in my school from seven to seven and they just sit and join and have a coffee with me" >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Relationships and community · [18:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1104) > "And since last year January, every week at least two or three, applications come through, and it's all gymnasium, and this is a high class education system in Germany." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: German school system · [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1273) > "And German curriculum is a great curriculum, but the system fails. And it's, as you talk about processes and politics and things like that, it chases teachers out, it causes heads to make decisions based on finances instead of the best interests of the students," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Why small schools exist · [22:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1377) > "my name is Lauren Edmonds, I started a school in 2013. We are a very small school, we, I don't take more than 20 kids in the entire school. We are very specialized and niche in terms of neurodiversity." >, Lauren Edmonds, intro voice or played clip · topic: Why small schools exist · [23:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1425) > "I think that's what the power of small schools is the nicheness of of each school that we don't model each other we we have an avenue and a path" >, Lauren Edmonds, intro voice or played clip · topic: Why small schools exist · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1498) > "I get a lot of children who come to me they're they're broken, their self-esteem has been broken by the system. Not deliberately, but it happens that way." >, Lauren Edmonds, intro voice or played clip · topic: Why small schools exist · [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1531) > "I'm Mark Loon, I'm from Kairos School of Inquiry and we started in 2011, so two years before you." >, Marc Loon, guest · topic: Why small schools exist · [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1554) > "my first teaching job was an unpaid post in rural Rajasthan in India. And I loved it and it was the most incredible, inspiring space because basically I was totally free to teach and without curriculum, pressures and I was, I was very free to be a teacher." >, Marc Loon, guest · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1686) > "I also met Marshall Rosenberg who introduced me to the idea of a nonviolent communication and that's I think the essence of our influence in our school the curriculum is rooted in an idea that that there is a way of communicating to each other teacher to teacher and teacher to child and child to child" >, Marc Loon, guest · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [29:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1756) > "a Stellenbosch University research saying that reducing class sizes on its own doesn't improve results. It's reducing the class sizes, having a specific pedagogical goal and, mindset in how you are going to facilitate the curriculum, and then creating an intentional culture within your school," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1791) > "the Gates Foundation put one point five billion into funding small schools in the US, and some of them had phenomenal results, you know, Bloom's Two Sigma results, you know, but there are other schools that didn't." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1836) > "So starting a small school and people saying small numbers in classes are the res, what results in improvement is not the default. There has to be a culture and a pedagogical backbone to make that actually work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1859) > "because we're not just simply a, a replication of a big school that suddenly pops up, we are pushed to innovate." >, Marc Loon, guest · topic: School relevance · [31:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1880) > "We have to justify our relevance or our existence through our relevance, and that innovation is driven not just for the sake of innovation, it's driven to be remain relevant in society," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School relevance · [31:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=1903) > "he said he struggled a lot because there was big fights, and also, we all often hear the word mobbing. So, so the intense nagging of children, between each other, and they're not stopping." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2052) > "and then I came to Edu Inc and Miss Day sat me down and was like you can go back a grade and you're gonna do well or you're gonna struggle through but either way you're gonna make it and after that I was like well I'll go back a grade went back a grade and well now I I do very well you could say top of the class" >, Jesse, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2258) > "any problems that we have, we can always sit down with a teacher and just air it out where in a public school you might just be told like, I don't know, go outside," >, Jesse, audience member · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2309) > "I think that's why I love Edu Inc, because I can go to a teacher if I have a problem. I can, I can go for extra lessons, and I have been doing really, really well in Edu Inc than what I've been doing in other schools." >, Paola Stella, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [39:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2366) > "Originally I was in grade ten, but then I got told I was going to have to go back to grade nine, because there were a lot of gaps in my knowledge. And I think that helped me tremendously as at the end of grade nine, I got a seventy percent average," >, JP, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2479) > "With regards to the social aspect, you certainly make fewer friendships. However, the friendships that you do make are a lot more meaningful, and I would almost say more authentic relationships than just the bare superficial, oh, your friend number 200 of 3,000." >, Miles, audience member · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2583) > "You can't just burn bridges and move on to the next friend group. You know, if there's a real issue, you have to learn to work on it, and I think that's a life skill that's very important." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [44:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2657) > "Miles sitting there with five different honors for archery and scouts and academics holding a national record or two for archery." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [45:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2749) > "The idea of going from a space of one-on-one teaching or tutoring for seven years to a space of twenty or thirty where every child was just a number, it was a ludicrous idea. I had no intention of going into that. But Edu Inc was the, you know, the classes of ten where I could know every single student." >, Audience member, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [49:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=2946) > "Teaching in a small school is not, it's not about the teacher's enjoyment of the curriculum. It's about finding ways every day or you know every time you teach a topic, finding different ways of presenting that so that it's meaningful to the learner." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Intentional pedagogy and culture · [50:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3010) > "everyone has their IQ. And you might be able to change that by a few points in the course of your lifetime, but your Q and A Q you can change or increase significantly. And a child may get nine distinctions and then go on to university like you said and struggle because of the underdeveloped E Q and A Q." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: IQ, EQ and AQ · [51:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3096) > "one of the things that stands out in small school spaces is the passion of the owner-teachers starting those schools, where, where an owner and, the people around him, her are in that space." >, Patti, audience member · topic: Why small schools exist · [52:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3174) > "I think some of that is driven currently by our, you know, the, the politics. In terms of state education, and to an extent on, on, in some cases, a, a failure to provide what is considered to be a really good worthwhile education." >, Mary, audience member · topic: Why small schools exist · [54:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3266) > "she said, I would rather die than come to my brother's school. I will not go to Edu Inc. Anyway, she came for the trial week, and I can't remember who her mentor was, but, come the end of the day, she absolutely loved it," >, Philip, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [59:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3591) > "Is that the school offers a mentorship approach. So like you mentored our son, someone mentored Jamie, they just got made to feel comfortable and accepted, which I don't think they got anywhere else really." >, Philip, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [60:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3621) > "Twenty six children in my class, I'm looking for happy children, and my two children are happy. They can't wait to come to school." >, Megan, audience member · topic: Relationships and community · [61:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3680) > "it came out in one of the, the studies in Australia when they were closing small schools and fitting them into big ones, is that parental involvement collapsed overnight." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Relationships and community · [62:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3748) > "I was, in the national team of diving in Germany, and I was doing springboard, three meter springboard and ten meter platform." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Exchange programmes · [64:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=3883) > "Meanwhile, about three hundred kids come with me to South Africa. So, it's now, I think, the 22nd, 23rd, exchange, down to South Africa in total." >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Exchange programmes · [68:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4097) > "She has been at our school for one week, joined the class, and then she was one week off. She got the exercises she made in between the training and sent it to us, and then it's done. And it worked out perfectly. She passed Matric," >, Christian Convence, guest · topic: Socialisation and sport myths · [75:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4530) > "if the child doesn't in the trial week find a place where it can fit and is not the right place, we are not forced to take the child. We can say, I do know somebody who I can recommend who is exactly what you need," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School relevance · [76:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1676267_high.mp3#t=4600) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A German micro-school head on family, purpose and intentional education This fireside conversation is for parents, psychologists and anyone working with children's wellbeing who is questioning whether a small or micro school is a legitimate choice rather than a compromise. Christian Convence, head of a family-run micro school near Aachen in Germany, joins fellow small-school head, Gershom Aitchison, from South Africa to explain why their schools exist, what drives families toward them, and what children actually gain in a small, intentionally designed learning environment. Christian traces his school's origins from 1995, when his father resigned from closing down state schools, through a 2004 monastery purchase and steady growth to a deliberate cap of 150 students. He explains the German Abitur system, how international students from China navigate it, and why his school's flexibility to prepare students without being bound by internal grading gives struggling learners a genuine second chance. The episode directly tackles the three most common objections to small schools: poor socialisation, lack of sport, and obscure credentials. Four students, Jesse, Paola, JP and Miles, speak unscripted about being academically rebuilt, forming authentic multi-grade friendships, and learning to resolve conflict rather than avoid it. Parent Philip shares the story of his daughter who said she would rather die than attend her brother's small school, and who then loved it within a day. Teachers and education consultants add evidence from Australian research on parental involvement collapse when small schools are merged, Stellenbosch University research on class size versus intentional pedagogy, the Gates Foundation's one-and-a-half-billion-dollar small-school study, and Bloom's Two Sigma findings. Teacher Ishan Singh introduces the IQ, EQ and AQ framework used daily at Edu Inc, arguing that emotional intelligence and application quotient are the real predictors of university and life success. The conversation closes with a sharp strategic question every small school must be able to answer: if your school disappeared tomorrow, what would your community lose that no large school could replace? For parents weighing a small private school, this episode provides honest voices from inside the model and a confident, evidence-rich counter-narrative to every standard objection. Connect with Marc Loon on LinkedIn · Bloom's Two Sigma Problem - original research overview · Marshall Rosenberg - Nonviolent Communication · RWTH Aachen University - Germany's elite technical university · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Capacity Building | Candice Yorke, Counselling Psychologist - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2026-02-19-capacity-building/ - Date: 2026-02-19 (as at 2026-02-19) - Guest: Jacqueline Aitchison, Candice Yorke - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Happiness versus flourishing, Capacity, resilience and grit, Biomedical model and helplessness, Victimhood and drama triangle, Parenting and boundaries, Coping versus capacity, Growth takes a village - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1647922 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Candice Yorke - counseling psychologist - Registered with the HPCSA, with 10 years of working experience with teenagers and school-going children; specializes in psychoeducational and neurological assessment; therapeutic approach integrates CBT, DBT and play therapies. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Jacqueline Aitchison - educational leader · Edu Inc - MSc in psychology from Liverpool John Moores University, thesis on moving from learned helplessness to psychological capacity; MA in Educational Leadership, PGCE and MBA from Unisa; Executive Head of Edu Inc for 13 years; now Chairperson of Edu Inc's board. In their own words: > "the reason, I did the analysis of it was specifically because there's been a lot of research into how the, the traditional biomedical approach can tend to pathologize normal behaviors." [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=857) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A panel conversation hosted by Gershom Aitchison with counseling psychologist Candice Yorke and Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison, former Executive Head and now board Chairperson of Edu Inc. They discuss moving young people from surviving to thriving. Jacqueline distinguishes happiness from flourishing and capacity from resilience and grit. She critiques over-medicalization and victimhood dynamics through Karpman's drama triangle. Candice draws on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and her clinical work with teenagers to warn against avoidance and an over-reliance on coping. Gershom closes with advice for parents, teachers and students on boundaries, modelling behaviour, describing reality accurately and asking for help without asking to be rescued. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline argues that the pursuit of happiness has been diluted by social media and the wellness industry. Flourishing, she says, turns the focus outward, towards contributing to something greater than yourself. ([03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236) [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236) [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=286) [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=401)) - Candice, drawing on ACT, says happiness should not be the only goal. People must accept and surf the ups and downs rather than avoid them. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=527) [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=608) [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=711)) - Jacqueline says capacity comes first: the resources that get you back up. Resilience is brushing yourself down and trying again, and grit is sustained effort on something difficult. ([17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1058) [18:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1089) [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1098)) - Jacqueline argues that the biomedical approach can over-pathologize normal struggles and turn adolescents into passive recipients who lose agency. Medication remains appropriate for severe pathology. ([14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=855) [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=857) [15:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=916) [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=952)) - Jacqueline links learned helplessness to victimhood. Using Karpman's drama triangle, she shows how a child claiming victim status pushes parents into rescuing or persecuting. ([38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2314) [39:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2345) [39:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2348) [42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2523)) - Both guests describe growth as a team effort involving family, school, therapists and the child. The child's agency is paramount. ([26:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1604) [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1888) [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1926) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2007)) - Candice warns of an over-need for coping. She argues that building capacity should reduce how often coping mechanisms are needed. ([56:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3418) [57:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3456) [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3529)) **Growing through discomfort (as described by Jacqueline)** ([21:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1278) [21:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1310)) 1. Sit with the discomfort rather than escaping back to familiar patterns. 2. Name the discomfort. 3. Figure it out and understand why you are uncomfortable. 4. Move forward and ask what you learned, so you have a template for next time. **Lessons** - Jacqueline argues that removing every uncomfortable task from a child, such as an oral presentation, robs them of the chance to build life skills. ([16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=968) [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=994)) - Gershom says parents should expect children not to like them at times, and that holding a boundary can mean the job is being done properly. ([35:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2120) [35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2136)) - Candice suggests parents examine their own capacity to watch their child struggle, because the urge to remove discomfort can backfire. ([44:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2648) [44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2678)) - Jacqueline distinguishes healthy coping, like sport or journaling, from avoidance, like gaming until midnight. ([52:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3164) [55:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3330)) - Jacqueline advises choosing confidants who hold up a real mirror rather than feeding victimhood. ([61:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3706)) - Gershom recommends describing reality realistically rather than catastrophizing, and asking for help while still doing the work yourself. ([63:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3805) [64:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3895)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers, teachers and school leaders, and adolescents who want to understand the difference between happiness and flourishing, why discomfort matters for growth, and how families, schools and therapists can build young people's capacity and agency together. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jacqueline says she read that the happiness industry was worth over 6.4 trillion dollars in 2025. ([04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=286)) - Candice Yorke is introduced as an HPCSA-registered counseling psychologist with 10 years of experience with teenagers and school-going children. ([02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=136)) - Jacqueline Aitchison served as Executive Head of Edu Inc for 13 years and now chairs its board. ([03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=189)) - Jacqueline's MSc thesis at Liverpool John Moores University explored the shift from learned helplessness to psychological capacity. ([02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=171)) - Candice cites The Happiness Trap, a book by a leader in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=527)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between happiness and flourishing?** A: Jacqueline says happiness has become an inward, diluted concept shaped by social media. Flourishing, from a positive psychology view, means no longer just coping or surviving. It comes from a meaningful life of contributing to something greater than yourself. ([03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236) [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236) [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=339) [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=401)) **Q: How is capacity different from resilience and grit?** A: Jacqueline says capacity comes first: it is the resources that get you back up when life takes you out at the knees. Resilience is brushing yourself down and trying again. Grit is doing a difficult thing for a prolonged period, like Matric. ([17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1058) [18:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1089) [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1098)) **Q: Is medication bad for teenagers with anxiety or depression?** A: No, according to the speakers. Jacqueline says severe pathology needs the biomedical approach. Gershom says medication can help someone reach a point where capacity can be built, but if no capacity is built, people slide back when it stops. ([15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=952) [20:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1257)) **Q: How can over-protective parenting lead to learned helplessness?** A: Jacqueline gives the example of asking teachers never to make an anxious child speak, which removes tool building. Candice says parents can be quick to remove discomfort and should consider their own capacity to watch their child struggle. ([16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=994) [44:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2648)) **Q: What is Karpman's drama triangle and how does it show up with teenagers?** A: Jacqueline explains that the victim holds the power. A child who fails a test and claims it covered untaught work forces a parent either to rescue them or, if challenged, into the persecutor role. ([39:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2345) [39:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2348) [40:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2402) [42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2523)) **Q: When does grief stop being normal and need intervention?** A: Jacqueline worries that prolonged grief can quickly be labelled a depressive episode under DSM-5, but says three years of grieving needs intervention. Candice says clinicians look at whether the person can function, which Jacqueline defines as maintaining relationships or a job. ([46:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2763) [47:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2869) [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2930)) **Q: Are coping mechanisms enough to handle stress?** A: Candice says coping regulates the nervous system but warns of an over-need for it. Jacqueline says coping is not the fix, only a tool to calm down before the real work. Capacity should reduce reliance on coping. ([56:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3418) [57:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3456) [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3529)) **Q: Who is responsible for helping a struggling teenager?** A: Jacqueline calls it a team sport involving the family, the child, the school and teachers. Candice says schools should be honest about what support they can offer and the team should rebuild the child's willingness to try. ([25:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1522) [26:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1604) [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1926)) ### Passage: Why flourishing beats the pursuit of happiness [03:56-07:18, 549 words] Note (AI): Jacqueline sets out the episode's core distinction between inward-focused happiness and outward, meaning-driven flourishing, with the social media and wellness-industry context. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236): > I think the pursuit of happiness has really become quite a diluted concept, thanks to social media and the influences that are around us. You mean the Gershom Aitchison, host [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=246): > Kardashians? Okay. Sorry, I just had to Google the name. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [04:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=251): > You know, if you think about, especially our, our teenagers, they are surrounded with TikTok and Instagram and all these things where only the best of the best is seen. so there's this constant reinforcement where if your life is not being lived at this super high level all the time, you must be doing something wrong, or there must be something wrong with you, or you must be depressed, or you must be, you clearly don't have enough friends or the right people around you because you're not living at this exceptional level all the time, which is just not the truth at all. you know, I read the other day that the happiness industry in 2025 was worth over 6.4 trillion dollars. So the happiness industry, being the wellness industry, your self-help books on, you know, follow these 10 steps to happiness, or, workplace wellbeing, or this course, or this retreat, or whatever it is that they are selling that we are just falling for because we have this urge to live the Instagram level life, because if I'm not living that life, I'm clearly not happy. so that's why I say I think the concept of happiness has actually been diluted, and we, we actually don't know what that word really means anymore. And this is perhaps why it's, it's better to start using words like flourishing, wellbeing, because they have more meaning for us. From a clinical perspective, flourishing, from a positive psychology perspective, flourishing is when you are no longer just coping, surviving. So pathology would be when you are in a state of disease or dis-ease, which would then, you know, you get treatment and it takes, takes you back to a coping level. You want to realize that that's not enough. We need to work towards flourishing, not just coping, and that there are ways and means of teaching ourselves to do that, and that is what lives, leads us to a very meaningful life. It's not about happiness every day. It's about having meaning in our lives and living a meaningful life. I think one of the other big distinctions for me when I really think about these concepts is that at the moment, happiness feels like a very inward concept. I need to do this, and I need to look like that, and I need to be, you know, involved with these people and do this. Whereas a life of meaning turns the focus more outward, because to have meaning in your life, you have to be contributing to something greater than yourself. And as soon as you think about contributing to something greater than yourself, you have to look outside of yourself. You cannot be completely focused on the self all the time. You have to go, well, what is my place here, and how do I fit in to that environment and that community, and how do I make them better? Once we start doing that, happiness tends to take care of itself. That's how I see it at the moment. ### Passage: How the biomedical approach can breed passivity [14:15-17:07, 438 words] Note (AI): Explains how over-medicalization and labels can remove adolescent agency. Includes the caveat for severe pathology and a concrete school example of removing growth opportunities. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=855): > Biomedical approach, and, and the reason, I did the analysis of it was specifically because there's been a lot of research into how the, the traditional biomedical approach can tend to pathologize normal behaviors. And It can also, so, so we, we live in a world now of over-medicalization. We look for a diagnosis as soon as we feel discontented or unhappiness, or there must be something wrong that we can put a label on. Because if we can put a label on it, we can give it a pill. That's biomedical. And the problem is that it also leads to a process where an adolescent in particular becomes a passive recipient of the care. You sit over there and you do what I tell you to do and you take the medication because I'm the expert. I'm the doctor with all the degrees, I will tell you how to manage this problem. And the, the adolescent becomes more and more passive in the process to the point where they lose any kind of agency. And they start to internalize the problem. So it's no longer, I am a person who is struggling with this. It's now, I am a problem. I have a problem with this, with this, I have this problem, that. I can't do this anymore because I, I've got this. So in other words, the diagnosis starts to become an excuse. I cannot interact with society or engage in these behaviors because of this diagnosis and that diagnosis and this label and that label and these medications. Now, there's obviously the caveat that in severe cases of severe pathology, of course, the biomedical approach is the right approach. It is appropriate. But I'm talking about the moment we are put into a position of growth, for example, growth is not meant to feel comfortable. Growth is a state of discomfort. That doesn't mean you will be doing something while we fattened means the opposite. If we can learn to sit in a discomfort, feel the discomfort, name the discomfort, and at sea discomfort, we are teaching ourselves capacity skills. When we have, well, my child has social anxiety, so please, teacher, they can't do an oral in front of the class. Please don't ever make them answer a question out loud, and please don't ever make them do a speech. That is just the worst thing that can happen. You have removed all tool building right there. And that child has been robbed of the ability to develop life skills that they will need for the rest of their lives. So that's not helpful. ### Passage: Capacity, resilience and grit, with a rugby analogy [17:23-20:02, 486 words] Note (AI): Defines three terms parents and schools use loosely and shows, through a rugby analogy, how shielding children leaves them unprepared. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1043): > I think the, the first thing I, I should probably point out here is that, you know, at school we talk a lot about resilience and grit. These are words that you guys hear all the time. And there's a difference between capacity and resilience. Those are two different things. Capacity comes first. Capacity is your, your assets, your, your resources that you draw on when life takes you out at the knees. You're gonna go down. There is no way you can avoid that. Life is going to take you out at the knees from time to time. The resilience comes after the fact, when you brush yourself down and you keep going. If you don't have capacity, you can't get up. In order to keep going, to brush yourself down and keep going. Capacity gets you back up off the ground. Resilience makes you brush yourself down and try again. That's the difference between the two, if that makes sense. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1096): > How would you add grit to that analogy? Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1098): > Well, grit is the, is the, you know, doing a difficult thing for a prolonged period of time. Matric is a very gritty year. You need to be able to focus intensively for a very long period of time. It's difficult for a long period of time. That's grit. Okay, so that's the difference between capacity, resilience, and grit. And of course, all of those are directly to do with flourishing. We, we work on these skills in order to be able to flourish. maybe a, a, a way to do it, to explain it, an analogy could be, I want to go and play rugby for South Africa. I've seen the Springboks win two World Cups in a row, and they have all this fame and acclaim and all this, it looks fantastic, and I'm going to go and do that. So I read a book on playing rugby. Then the first time I go onto the field, this guy comes along and he tackles me and he takes me out at the knees and I hit the ground really hard and I skinned my knee and I've got grass stains all down my clothes. And I stand up and go, that wasn't meant to happen. You are, I was supposed, that guy was meant to kick the ball. I was going to catch the ball and I was going to jump over the try line. Done. You go, but that's not rugby. There's a whole bitch here on you getting tackled and scrums and where your ears are going to get pulled in the scrum and this is going to hurt. Yeah, but I didn't read that chapter because, you know, it triggered me. Or, or, and I'm going to say the provocative thing, my mom took that chapter out of the book because it was a bit violent. That's what we're dealing with. ### Passage: Growth as a team sport and child agency [31:28-34:38, 559 words] Note (AI): Sets out why family, school, therapist and child must work together, and why adults should not leave a child in learned helplessness. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1888): > I think it's, it's exactly what we were speaking about earlier with the learned helplessness versus the agency. If we are gonna help adolescents and children, navigate all of this, whether they're coming from a broken position or whether they are just legitimately trying to build, build capacity skills to be able to navigate their world, it's a team sport. even with a child with deep pathology, right through to the one who's okay, the child's okay most of the time, but could do with a bit of extra help here and there when they're hitting a prolonged downer. It's a team sport, and this is where the, where a whole framework has to come into play, where the family, the child, him or herself, and the school, the community, the school and, and the teachers, and everyone else needs to be involved in this framework of developing the skills that this child needs for this particular context. If you're trying to do it only as the family without the school or the child, then you're as good as the doctor who's just saying, I'm the professional, just pay attention and do what you're told. Same goes for the school. If the school's saying, family, just do what you're told, it's not going to work. You, you, you're coming at it from one angle only, where it has to be a full circle. and, and the agency, this is one of my own personal passions, bugbears, I don't know what you want to call it, but the agency of the child is paramount. it's what you were talking about with buy-in. A child who's deep in the learned helplessness space has gotten to that point of futility. Well, what's the point of even trying? There's nothing I can do. There's nothing I can do. Nothing's going to change. You know, they're, they're really in a bad way. We can't, as responsible adults, leave them there. We can't just go, okay, well, no, sorry, he is too anxious. Yeah, sorry, Ed. Yeah. That's negligent. As far as I'm concerned, that's negligent as an adult, a significant adult in that child's life. We have to keep trying to bring that child to a point, and whether that's through medication, it often is, just giving them the medical help or the chemical help, just to get them back to a point where they can feel in sufficient control. To start taking agency for themselves. However that manifests, we have to get them back to the point where they can start taking the reins back and saying, okay, I'm going to try this, or I'm going to try that. That went well, that didn't really work for me, in whatever capacity that is. And it's not a quick fix, it's not a war that we win once, we all go through this war and we battle it out and then yay, it's sorted out, victory is ours. It doesn't work like that, unfortunately. It's a series of battles that rear their heads and we have to all come together and, and pick it up again, and then it gets better for a while, and we, we go through this whole sequence of battles to get this child to a point of sufficient agency where they can do this as an adult for themselves. ### Passage: Karpman's drama triangle and the failed maths test [39:05-42:16, 580 words] Note (AI): A worked, relatable example of how a teenager's victim narrative pushes a parent into rescuing or persecuting, and why both keep the child in control. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [39:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2345): > If you've never looked at Karpman's drama triangle, go and look at it because the victim sits at the point, the bottom point of the triangle, and it's the victim that holds all the control and holds all the power. So I'll give you an example, one that you guys will understand and relate to. You write a math test that you didn't study for, okay? You, you were busy playing or doing whatever you were doing, and you didn't put enough work into this math test. You went and you wrote it, and you failed it properly. Properly, okay? So now, you're sitting there and you're thinking, when I get into the car this afternoon, and I tell my mother what this mark is, it's going to be hell. This is not gonna go well. So you start coming up with your narrative, and by the time mom fetches you, you get in the car, and mom says, how did your math test go? It's the first question she has. She doesn't even ask, how was your day? How's your math test? And your response to her is, you know, that test had questions in it that we were never taught. Sound familiar? Oh, that, that quest, that test had questions we were never taught. Sorry. I claim my victim status. And I try and force my mom to rescue me. I want mom to go stomping into the school and say, why did you give my test with questions that were never taught? So mom has, you, you are holding the power. So you are forcing mom to make a choice at that moment. Okay? Mom has to decide now. Do I rescue my darling, precious little angel by storming into the school going, why were you giving my child tests on work that was never taught? Or mom uses mom's common sense, which moms tend to do, and mom goes, that doesn't sound right. Why would, why on earth would that happen? I'll tell you what, I'll find out. But this, this sounds a bit hinky to me. And mom maybe asks a question. Maybe she puts it on a group or she phones in and she says, listen, this is the story. What's going on here? This doesn't sound right. And teacher will invariably say, well, in every good assessment, there is going to be one or two questions your child has never seen before. That's what your highest cognitive level is all about. The application of knowledge to something new. A synthesis of information to create something new. And mom goes, yeah, okay, of course that makes sense. So it's fine. Now, part of mom's choice here is to either yell at the teacher and rescue the child. So the child's holding the power. The child's forced you to rescue. Or mom goes, hang on a minute, that's not making any sense. And says, listen here, you are just making up stories now because you didn't do very well in this test and you don't want to get into trouble. And then what do you do? You turn around and you go, you know, you never support me when it counts. You're never on my side. So the child is still holding the power because they've moved you now from the position of rescuing them to the position of persecuting them. Still holding all the power. So you need to get out of that completely. ### Passage: The bicycle analogy: protecting versus preparing [49:49-51:29, 330 words] Note (AI): A simple image parents can use to decide between soothing a child now and helping them get back on and try again. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [49:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2989): > You know, there's a, there's a great analogy for this that, I remember Gavin used this analogy years and years and years ago. And he, he used the analogy of a parent teaching a child to ride a bicycle. Now, when a parent buys a bicycle for a child, they buy the bicycle knowing the child's gonna fall off, right? That child's gonna fall off the bike and skin their knee and their elbow and whatever the case may be. And when we teach the child to ride the bicycle, we start by holding the saddle, right? We're running behind them and we're holding the saddle and we're going and we're going until they'd get enough momentum to go by themselves. Because you know with a bicycle, if you're going too slowly, you'd fall over. So you need momentum to keep going. So they get enough momentum, we let go of the saddle, but we still let go of the saddle knowing they're going to lose the momentum and probably fall off. As a parent at that point, what do we do? Do we say, come on, let me fix your knee and your elbow and then we're going to try again? Or do we say, oh no, my darling, let me ride the bicycle for you? Or, no, no, let's put that bicycle in the garage and never look at it again. So are we dealing with what's happening right now, the, the hurt feelings, the low feelings, are we trying to make them feel better right now by putting the bandage on their knee and then saying, come, let's go? Or do we Help them become what they need to be in the long term by saying, come, you're going to get back on this bicycle. Let's try again. Let's try again. Let's try again. I'm right here next to you. I'm still running next to you, but let's try again. You're not doing this on your own. ### Passage: Building capacity takes work and real coping [52:44-55:46, 463 words] Note (AI): Practical guidance on accepting discomfort, practising emotional intelligence, leaving comfort zones and telling healthy coping apart from avoidance. Jacqueline Aitchison, guest [52:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3164): > For me, one of the biggest things for the adults and the children is to understand that building capacity, in other words, building the ability to live a life of meaning and of well-being, takes work. It's not something that operates in a vacuum or that falls out of the ether and hits you on the head. You have to actively participate in a process. And like I said before, that means it's going to get uncomfortable. Because like learning how to play a rugby match or running the comrades or whatever, it's gonna get sore sometimes. It's gonna feel hard sometimes. And our brains are gonna keep trying to default us back into the old patterns. That's, that's how we work. That's how we are wired to work. So, for me, the departure point is understanding that I need to be okay with sitting with the, with the hurt, with the discomfort, and I need to understand that that doesn't mean I'm doing something wrong, and that I need to change this so that the discomfort stops. Life is going to bring you discomfort all the time. That's what life does. But the more discomfort we face, and the more capacity we allow it to build through learning from the discomfort, the better we will become at doing the difficult things. We'll get better and better at doing it, but we have to put the work in first. The work is things like developing the emotional intelligence and understanding what that means, and practicing it, understanding that it's about my community as well as about me, and the emotions on both sides of that coin, and practicing that. putting myself in situations Where I feel a bit uncomfortable. Where I'm not always in my comfort zone. Comfort zones create a rut. A rut becomes a prison. We don't want to be there. That's not human growth. That's not flourishing and it's not wellbeing. That's not us living our best lives. That's living the easy life. And that's, that's not a happy space. We need to understand, understand ourselves well enough to know what our coping mechanisms are, because they're going to be different for everyone. Yours are going to be different to your parents. And that's fine, because you are not your parents. You are your own person. So for you, it might be journaling. It might be, I don't know, what different coping mechanisms do you have? It could be sport, exercise, those are good coping mechanisms, those are good self-care activities. A coping mechanism is not saying, I've had a really rough day, so I'm going to go and game until midnight. That's avoidance. That's bad, that's dangerous. That's not dealing with anything, that's checking out instead of leaning in. ### Quotes > "Once we start doing that, happiness tends to take care of itself." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=431) > "growth is not meant to feel comfortable. Growth is a state of discomfort." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=968) > "Yeah, but I didn't read that chapter because, you know, it triggered me. Or, or, and I'm going to say the provocative thing, my mom took that chapter out of the book because it was a bit violent." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1182) > "Capacity is not putting more pipes in your dam, it's creating a bigger dam." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1234) > "our brains are wired to keep us safe, not make us happy." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [21:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1282) > "I'd rather have you not like me now than despise me at 25 because I haven't been an adult." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [35:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2122) > "Comfort zones create a rut. A rut becomes a prison." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [54:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3282) > "That's not dealing with anything, that's checking out instead of leaning in." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · [55:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3342) > "I can be scared and show up at the same time. I can be nervous and excited." >, Candice Yorke, guest · [59:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3566) > "kids do what you do. They don't do what you tell them to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [62:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3764) > "If it's a scratch, it's a scratch. Rub some dirt on it and move on." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [63:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3809) > "But asking for help is not asking to be rescued." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [64:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3895) ### Claims > "Candice is a counseling psychologist, registered with the HPCSA, with 10 years of working experience with the teenagers and school-going children." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Guest credentials · [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=136) > "From Liverpool John Moores University, where her thesis explored the shift from learning helplessness, learned helplessness, to psychological capacity, building tools for teenagers for lifelong flourishing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Guest credentials · [02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=171) > "Jax served as the Executive Head for Edu Inc for 13 years, and is now the current Chairperson of Edu Inc's board." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Guest credentials · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=189) > "I think the pursuit of happiness has really become quite a diluted concept, thanks to social media and the influences that are around us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=236) > "you know, I read the other day that the happiness industry in 2025 was worth over 6.4 trillion dollars." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=286) > "From a clinical perspective, flourishing, from a positive psychology perspective, flourishing is when you are no longer just coping, surviving." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=339) > "Whereas a life of meaning turns the focus more outward, because to have meaning in your life, you have to be contributing to something greater than yourself." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=401) > "a lot of the work that's being done in ACT, which is acceptance commitment therapy, and one of the big gurus or, or leaders in, in that realm wrote a book called The Happiness Trap." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=527) > "It is, and that's got a lot to do with the acceptance and commitment part, is that we rock and roll and surf the waves of the ups and downs." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=608) > "But I'm moving towards contentment, knowing that that height of happiness is not always sustainable, and it comes at a cost." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Happiness versus flourishing · [11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=667) > "In that we actually create a sort of prolonged suffering. Maybe it's an instant relief, whew, I didn't have to, you know, step out onto the plate. But prolonged, it, it creates a greater sense of anxiety." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=711) > "we are driven by two motivations to learn. One is curiosity and the other is frustration." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [12:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=739) > "the reason, I did the analysis of it was specifically because there's been a lot of research into how the, the traditional biomedical approach can tend to pathologize normal behaviors." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=857) > "we live in a world now of over-medicalization. We look for a diagnosis as soon as we feel discontented or unhappiness, or there must be something wrong that we can put a label on. Because if we can put a label on it, we can give it a pill." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=878) > "And the, the adolescent becomes more and more passive in the process to the point where they lose any kind of agency. And they start to internalize the problem." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [15:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=916) > "Now, there's obviously the caveat that in severe cases of severe pathology, of course, the biomedical approach is the right approach. It is appropriate." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=952) > "When we have, well, my child has social anxiety, so please, teacher, they can't do an oral in front of the class. Please don't ever make them answer a question out loud, and please don't ever make them do a speech. That is just the worst thing that can happen. You have removed all tool building right there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=994) > "Capacity comes first. Capacity is your, your assets, your, your resources that you draw on when life takes you out at the knees." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1058) > "Capacity gets you back up off the ground. Resilience makes you brush yourself down and try again. That's the difference between the two, if that makes sense." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [18:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1089) > "Well, grit is the, is the, you know, doing a difficult thing for a prolonged period of time. Matric is a very gritty year." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1098) > "Capacity is not putting more pipes in your dam, it's creating a bigger dam. Creating more space to put in, and then you can put more pipes in, so that that's your AQ, so that you can get more output, okay?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1234) > "a lot of medication happens where we get to the point of feeling that we are in control again, but no capacity is built around that, so when the medication stops, we go back down to where we started again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [20:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1257) > "Growth is uncomfortable, and it doesn't feel great, because remember our brains are wired to keep us safe, not make us happy." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [21:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1278) > "Real growth is when you can sit with that discomfort, name it, figure it out, understand why you are uncomfortable, what is making me uncomfortable here, and move forward." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [21:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1310) > "And often in therapy when, when I work with teenagers or, or adults, where they've got to the point of, well, why bother? You know, yeah, fail all the tests, or why bother?" >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [23:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1380) > "and I always hope there that schools can be very honest with their students and parent bodies as to what, what support they can offer." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Growth takes a village · [25:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1522) > "But I think there is then a huge onus on one, us as a team. Building that child up to a position of, I want to try, to, I, I can try, I can do this, or maybe I can't do everything, but I can do that." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Growth takes a village · [26:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1604) > "To a point where that control becomes responsibility. Because responsibility is not responsibility without consequence. Yeah. So I, I earn, and it's a big step to go from support and helping to give agency to I'm now in control, which means I'm responsible for the outcome as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Growth takes a village · [27:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1669) > "I can't, I can't help it that you've got to eat your vegetables, but can I, I, I can sit with you at the table or I can add cheese sauce, so we gotta do the hard stuff, but I am here." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [31:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1866) > "It's a team sport, and this is where the, where a whole framework has to come into play, where the family, the child, him or herself, and the school, the community, the school and, and the teachers, and everyone else needs to be involved in this framework" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Growth takes a village · [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=1926) > "We can't just go, okay, well, no, sorry, he is too anxious. Yeah, sorry, Ed. Yeah. That's negligent. As far as I'm concerned, that's negligent as an adult, a significant adult in that child's life." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Growth takes a village · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2007) > "It's a series of battles that rear their heads and we have to all come together and, and pick it up again," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Growth takes a village · [34:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2062) > "And my comment is always, I'd rather have you not like me now than despise me at 25 because I haven't been an adult." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [35:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2120) > "It's not appropriate for you to be friends with your teenage child. Be friendly towards them. You can be friends later when you're adults, because there's a mutual respect," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2136) > "nobody decides to become helpless. No one decides to go, I'm going to learn how to be helpless and useless and not contribute to society or have any agency." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2209) > "the learned helplessness is, is kind of conflated with victimhood and victim status. And again, the society that we live in has really, propagated this victim status mentality." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [38:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2314) > "because the victim sits at the point, the bottom point of the triangle, and it's the victim that holds all the control and holds all the power." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [39:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2348) > "And your response to her is, you know, that test had questions in it that we were never taught. Sound familiar?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [40:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2402) > "And teacher will invariably say, well, in every good assessment, there is going to be one or two questions your child has never seen before. That's what your highest cognitive level is all about." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [41:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2473) > "So the child is still holding the power because they've moved you now from the position of rescuing them to the position of persecuting them." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2523) > "I think there is a position where we can be very quick to remove discomfort, remove, you know, the, the obstacle, and we have to then think of, well, what is our own capacity to see our child or our teen struggle?" >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [44:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2648) > "and that's, that's exactly, you know, what I went through, and I never, ever wanted my little boy to go through that. And sometimes it's so interesting that something that we try avoid so much actually ends up having the same result." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2678) > "unfortunately, we're in a stage now where if that grief is prolonged over a certain amount of weeks, according to DSM-5, and if it presents, or this and this, suddenly it's a, a major depressive episode." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [46:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2763) > "yeah, a three-year grieving period, no, that's not grief anymore, and intervention is required." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [47:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2869) > "Functioning is when you can maintain normal relationships, your friendships, your family relationships, or in the case of adults, maintain your job." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Biomedical model and helplessness · [48:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2930) > "So what I'm hearing is that there's a real difference between protecting your child from difficulty and preparing your child for difficulty. Because most of us default to protection." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=2949) > "Comfort zones create a rut. A rut becomes a prison. We don't want to be there. That's not human growth." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [54:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3282) > "A coping mechanism is not saying, I've had a really rough day, so I'm going to go and game until midnight. That's avoidance." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [55:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3330) > "I think my worry, and this is, I suppose, anecdotal experience in therapy and assessments is that there's a almost over need for, for coping." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [56:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3418) > "I think a lot of people think the coping mechanism is the fix. Yeah. Without realizing that the coping mechanism is just the tool to calm the nervous system enough" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [57:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3456) > "So we've got to look at how do I actually strengthen my muscles that I can carry this pack to the top of the mountain and enjoy the view." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3529) > "it's being in that position where two things are true at the same time. I can be scared and show up at the same time. I can be nervous and excited. I can be embarrassed, but determined." >, Candice Yorke, guest · topic: Coping versus capacity · [59:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3561) > "However, in the capacity or in the context, rather, of mental health, people can also use boundaries to isolate themselves." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [61:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3678) > "So make sure the person who you're talking to, the people you're talking to, are holding up a good mirror, a real mirror, not just feeding your victimhood in any given moment." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, guest · topic: Victimhood and drama triangle · [61:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3706) > "Then parents and teachers, this is a very important one, kids do what you do. They don't do what you tell them to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [62:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3761) > "You build capacity by describing your reality realistically. If it's a scratch, it's a scratch. Rub some dirt on it and move on." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [63:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3805) > "Ask yourself, what is the worst thing that can happen, realistically? And if the worst thing that can happen realistically is something you could deal with, then go ahead and do it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Capacity, resilience and grit · [64:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3866) > "But asking for help is not asking to be rescued. When you ask for help, ask for help understanding that you still have to do the work," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Growth takes a village · [64:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1647922_high.mp3#t=3895) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Gershom Aitchison hosts counseling psychologist Candice Yorke and educational leader Jacqueline Aitchison to explore one of the most urgent questions facing parents, educators, and teens today: how do we move beyond merely surviving to truly thriving? They unpack why the modern obsession with constant happiness, fueled by social media, the wellness industry, and diluted self-help promises, often leaves us stuck in coping mode rather than building meaningful, flourishing lives. Drawing on positive psychology, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and real-world experience with adolescents, the conversation challenges the pursuit of endless highs and instead champions purpose, contribution, emotional capacity, and the courage to sit with discomfort as the true path to well-being. The speakers differentiate happiness (often inward and fleeting) from flourishing (outward-focused, meaning-driven, and built through service to something greater than ourselves). They explore how over-protection, victimhood culture, avoidance of frustration, and the biomedical “quick-fix” approach can unintentionally foster learned helplessness in young people, robbing them of agency, grit, and lifelong resilience. Instead, they advocate intentionally building capacity first: creating a bigger “dam” to hold life’s challenges so resilience and grit can follow naturally. Parents, teachers, and teens will leave with practical insight into the team sport of growth, where schools, families, and young people all have roles to play. This isn’t about slogans or Instagram wellness; it’s an honest call to stop diagnosing only what’s wrong, start strengthening what’s strong, and embrace the uncomfortable work required to live with purpose and flourish. Key takeaways: - Pursuing constant happiness is often self-centered and unsustainable; flourishing comes from meaning, contribution, and service to something bigger than yourself. - Growth requires discomfort and frustration, avoiding these robs young people of motivation to learn, build skills, and develop true capacity. - The biomedical model can over-pathologize normal struggles and create learned helplessness; building strengths and agency must come first (medication has its place but isn’t the full solution). - Capacity precedes resilience and grit: it’s the inner resources that get you back up after life knocks you down, without it, resilience can’t activate. - Over-protection (removing all discomfort) and victim/rescuing/persecutor dynamics (Karpman’s drama triangle) unintentionally teach helplessness instead of agency. - It takes a village, parents, schools, therapists, and the young person themselves must collaborate; real growth is a long-term team effort, not a quick fix or solo journey. Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Raising Resiliance | Ilanit Gerson - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-11-10-raising-resiliance/ - Date: 2025-11-10 (as at 2025-11-10) - Guest: Ilanit Gerson - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Post-COVID teen anxiety, Signs of anxious children, Parents regaining control, Normalising worries, Brain regulation and breathing, Avoidance and school refusal, Consistent consequences, Parent-school partnership - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1616582 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss ### About the guest: Ilanit Gerson - Educational psychologist - First degree was a B.Com in computer programming; stopped working in schools in the middle of COVID after finishing her fourth or fifth degree; created the Surfing Safely curriculum for grades seven to nine, run in forty schools around South Africa. In their own words: > "I actually stopped working in schools in the middle of COVID. Most of the schools I was in, I just finished like my fourth or fifth degree, and my job was to stand outside the bathrooms and sanitize all the children's hands," [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=196) > "My first degree was a mistake, it was a B.Com in computer programming. But that means I'm okay with technology, and I cannot keep up with what my teenagers are on." [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=537) > "I did my thesis, a second thesis on, I called it Surfing Safely, and I created a high school curriculum for grades seven, eight, and nine, which we ran into forty schools around South Africa," [56:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3388) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A fireside chat for parents and teachers on parenting anxious children and teenagers. The host frames the discussion around a post-COVID rise in anxiety. Educational psychologist Ilanit Gerson describes the signs of an anxious child, especially that the anxious child controls the home. She explains her 'anxious hole' model of why giving in makes anxiety worse, and how she works with parents first to restore rules and routines. She also covers normalising worries as junk thoughts, the flipped-brain model with breathing, refusing avoidance and school refusal, and consistent consequences. Audience questions cover recovery into adulthood, anxious parents, and physical symptoms. **Key ideas** - Ilanit argues COVID brought children an earlier awareness of death, shifting the age of understanding death's permanence from about eight or nine to four or five. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=247)) - Ilanit says the most anxious child controls the home, and that giving in to their demands briefly closes the anxious 'hole' but then makes it bigger. ([12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=753) [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=760) [19:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1153) [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1228) [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2278)) - Ilanit frames anxious children's manipulation as an attempt to get their needs met rather than malice, and says anxious people make their own rules. ([17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1040) [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1111) [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1114)) - Ilanit meets parents first for four or five sessions to restore bedtimes, mealtimes and phone-free time, built on three to five rules that are held firmly. ([32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1953) [32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1963) [33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2029)) - Ilanit teaches that worries are normal 'junk thoughts' to be filtered. Parents should normalise and listen, not rescue, fix or rationalise. ([43:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2627) [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2677) [45:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2711) [47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2845) [54:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3280) [58:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3510)) - Drawing on Daniel Siegel's hand model, Ilanit explains that triggers flip the brain and flood it with adrenaline. Breathing, exercise and sleep bring it back to 'wise brain'. ([58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3529) [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3529) [60:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3604) [63:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3831) [65:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3941)) - Ilanit warns that letting children avoid school or tests, including through mental health days, makes the feared thing grow. ([67:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4056) [68:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4132) [69:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4145)) - Ilanit says consequences must be specific, predictable and non-negotiable, or the home becomes a 'casino'. ([103:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6233) [104:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6248) [104:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6261) [104:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6273) [106:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6413) [107:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6468)) **Responding to a child's worry** ([47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2845) [47:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2858) [54:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3280)) 1. Normalise the worry as a normal thought rather than engaging with or enlarging it. 2. Listen to the whole story to work out what the child is really saying. 3. Acknowledge the feeling the child has. 4. Do not jump to rescue or fix, and never try to rationalise the worry away. **Lessons** - Ilanit advises parents of anxious children to set three to five firm rules and routines and hold them, saying yes to everything else. ([32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1963) [33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2029)) - Ilanit tells parents to calm their own flipped brain first, with three deep breaths, and to practise breathing daily so it works in a crisis. ([63:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3831) [63:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3839) [65:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3941)) - According to Ilanit, parents should not let an anxious child avoid school, tests or deadlines, because avoidance makes the problem bigger. ([67:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4056) [68:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4132) [69:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4145)) - Ilanit says to deal with a meltdown by damage control in the moment and to talk it through later, when everyone is calm. ([95:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5743) [99:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5960)) - Ilanit advises giving attention when things are going well, not only in crises, so children do not learn to lurch from crisis to crisis. ([71:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4261)) - Ilanit urges parents to choose a school they trust, then work with it and back its expectations. ([77:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4672) [78:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4714)) **Who it's for:** Parents who feel their household is run by an anxious child or teenager, and teachers and school leaders dealing with anxious pupils and their parents. It suits anyone wanting practical scripts on routines, avoidance, consequences and calming a flipped brain. **Facts stated in the episode** - Ilanit says the age at which children understand death as permanent shifted from about eight or nine to four or five since COVID. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=247)) - Ilanit states 60% of children are 'in-the-box' children who can be intuitively parented. ([22:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1359) [37:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2271)) - Ilanit says adrenaline from a trigger takes 72 hours to drain. ([60:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3604)) - Ilanit describes PTSD as more than six months of adrenaline that does not drain. ([62:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3725)) - Ilanit says adults have two to three hundred junk thoughts a day and teenagers four to six hundred. ([43:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2627)) - Ilanit's Surfing Safely curriculum for grades seven to nine ran in forty schools around South Africa. ([56:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3388)) - An audience member recommends How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, How to Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Maslish. ([86:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5167)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How can I tell if my child is struggling with anxiety?** A: Ilanit says the clearest sign is that the anxious child controls the home and the family walks on eggshells. Other signs she lists are exhaustion from constant worrying, bedtime avoidance with triggering questions, and physical symptoms. Anxiety becomes dysfunctional when it stops a child facing what peers can face. ([12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=753) [14:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=844) [15:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=957) [30:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1803)) **Q: Why has child anxiety increased since COVID?** A: Ilanit says COVID brought children an earlier awareness of death, which causes confusion. She adds that teenagers take adult worries about politics and corruption to extremes, and are exposed online to things they are not developmentally ready for. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=247) [05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=330) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=461)) **Q: Can an anxious child grow up to be a non-anxious adult?** A: Ilanit answers yes: the underlying anxiety remains, but people can learn to manage and contain it. She says anxious thinking can be unlearned and research increasingly supports this. ([83:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5029)) **Q: Should I let my anxious child take a mental health day before a test?** A: Ilanit argues no. Avoiding the test gives the child a whole weekend to worry and more to face on Monday, and school refusal becomes a slippery slope. She suggests telling them school is the government's rule and taking them. ([67:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4056) [68:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4132) [69:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4145)) **Q: What do I do when my teenager says they feel sick before school but I think it's anxiety?** A: Ilanit says not to argue in the moment. Do damage control, get him to school or remove rewards for staying home, and later talk it through calmly. Help him notice where he felt it in his body, since anxiety shows up physically first. ([95:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5743) [97:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5874) [99:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5960)) **Q: How do I make consequences actually work with my kids?** A: Ilanit recommends specific rules with consistent consequences, such as timed screen removal or a pocket money system with a clear deadline. Never negotiate and never shift the goals, or children adopt a 'casino mentality'. ([104:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6248) [104:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6261) [104:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6273) [106:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6413)) **Q: How should I answer my child's question about death or sex?** A: Ilanit advises first asking the child, 'what do you know?' What they know shows what they are really asking, so adults do not load their own concerns onto the child. ([87:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5274)) **Q: I was an anxious child and now my child is anxious. What should I do?** A: Ilanit says she would work only with the parent, helping them regulate and learn an unanxious way of talking and living. The child often changes without being seen, because the parent models calm. ([93:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5619)) **Q: What if my teenager threatens self-harm when I set limits?** A: Ilanit calls self-harm threats the scariest form of weaponising feelings and says she sees it more and more. At that stage she advises professional intervention. ([49:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2992) [55:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3341)) ### Passage: The hijacking analogy for anxious manipulation [17:20-18:39, 275 words] Note (AI): Explains, through a Johannesburg red-robot story, why anxious children bend rules and turn aggressive, and reframes manipulation as meeting needs rather than as malice. Ilanit Gerson, guest [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1040): > So the example I always give, and I'm sorry if you've heard this before, is imagine if you've been hijacked. One night you came home and you were hijacked in your driveway. After that, you carry on driving, you're a little bit traumatized, but you now know that you're scared to stop, and every time you get to Red Robot, you do what we only do in Joburg, you, at night, you stop and you look both ways and you cross, right? Because Red Robots, at night you don't keep them. Say there's a traffic cop just across from the Red Robot as I drive through it and he stops me and he says, you've broken the law, you just drove through a Red Robot. I believe I was gonna get hijacked at that robot. So I don't say, I'm sorry, officer, please forgive me, I made a mistake. I say, what law? If you were doing your job, there wouldn't be hijackers at every place. I didn't break the law. You're not making the law. You're the problem, not me. You can't do. And I would get exceptionally aggressive and manipulative because anxious people make their own rules in the world. They decide what their rules will be to manage. So manipulative children get every possible way to sleep in parents' beds, to get out of doing homework, to get out of doing deadlines. They cry, they sick, they, every single test or deadline is an ordeal, and they start to learn how to manipulate to get their needs met. So manipulative doesn't mean malicious, but it means trying to get their needs met. ### Passage: The anxious hole and why giving in grows it [19:13-21:18, 408 words] Note (AI): This is the guest's core model: giving in to control closes the anxious 'hole' briefly and then enlarges it. That model explains why the guest's later parenting advice is counter-intuitive. Ilanit Gerson, guest [19:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1153): > My best analogy of anxiety, which I use all the time to, for parents to understand, is if everyone's been anxious at a certain time. So think for a minute of a time when you were really anxious, something, you, you knew something bad would happen. Usually it's imaginary, but whether it was or wasn't. When children and teenagers are anxious, imagine it's like a hole over here. You've got this anxious hole that even us as adults can't handle. That's why adults self-medicate, we drink, we take tranquilizers, we smoke, we do something to get rid of that feeling. Children and teenagers hopefully can't access that all, let's just say. So they've got this terrible feeling and they have to try and get rid of it. So they learn from a young age, and this I'm talking about is genetic anxiety, children who are anxious, they can't sit with that feeling something bad is going to happen. So they learn that if they can't Control their mom or their safest caregiver, they're going to feel better. So they then control mom, and what they say is, I'm not bathing now, I'm not eating supper, I'm not whatever, I'm only going to do it when daddy's home or when I decide, or I'm not hungry, or I hate snackages, I've eaten them for the last three weeks, but tonight I hate that and I'm never eating it again and you have to make me another supper. We as parents have limited energy and ability to cope with our child getting very, very fixated on something. So we usually give in. We give them a later bedtime, we let them sleep in our bed, we make them a different supper, and our kids feel great because that hole has closed for a few minutes until they've done or got what they wanted, and that then becomes a hole of, oh my god, I'm in control and I'm the adult in my home, so the hole gets bigger, so I get more controlling. And that's why if you want to find an anxious child, you say to the parents who's in control of your family, the anxious child is controlling everything because they've got so much more energy than us, and we don't realize we're making it worse. And that's why there are actually very specific parenting ways to get an anxious child to reverse that and close that hole. ### Passage: Working with parents before meeting the child [32:33-34:24, 423 words] Note (AI): Describes the guest's intake practice: sessions with parents only, a small set of firm rules, and routines. It shows how parents stop being scared of their own child. Ilanit Gerson, guest [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1953): > So then I'm very, very cruel, and I say to the parents, I really want to meet your kid, but we're just going to get a few things in place first, and as soon as you've got that in place, I'll meet your kid. And I do four or five sessions where we get parents to take control again, where there is a bedtime, where there's a supper time, where there's a bedtime routine, where there's a time in the house where everyone switches off phones and has to look at each other, and the fathers find that the hardest of everyone. The children don't mind it as much as the dads do, usually. And all the moms who all say they're off their phones, and the dads are like, just check on her settings how much she used her phone, you know, so that kind of thing. What's interesting to me is not only are the children, but as adults, we're oblivious of how much we're on our own phones at times when we could be with our children. So the first thing with parents is unless you are going to be in control of your child, you're not going to be able to help him or her, and you've got to get control back. And parents will fight it, they will say, well, what am I supposed to do? Okay, fine, you want my child to go to school, what am I supposed to do if he won't go? And, and they mean that they're not being silly. They have lost control of their child when their child was four or five years old and set the rules in the home. And it's a very hard thing to get back to consistent rules. You only have four or five rules. So my first advice to parents is you create three to five rules in your home and you dial those rules. You say yes to everything else because your kids are going to beat you on everything else. But on these, if you've made a bedtime, that's the bedtime. If you've made a wake up time, if you've made a meal time, if you've made a rule. And quite interestingly, once you've got to that point, parents stop being scared of their own children because usually you're scared of a very anxious child. And already by then, our sons don't even meet the kids that originally were coming. Sometimes by then, the parents have already managed to shift things a lot. ### Passage: Flipping the lid, adrenaline and PTSD [58:49-62:10, 626 words] Note (AI): Walks through the hand model, the 72-hour adrenaline drain and 'wise brain'. This gives parents a physiological reason for anxious reactions to small triggers. Ilanit Gerson, guest [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3529): > There's a Professor Daniel Siegel, who if any of you haven't heard of, is worth looking at. He's got a lot of YouTube videos, and his expertise is emotional regulation. He has a model called the hand model in flipping the lid. Have any of you heard of it? So can I explain it quickly? What he's explaining is if you imagine this is the brain, whereas our brain is the size of our two fists, and you would look at it like this, there are three parts of our brains that are reactive, that react emotionally. There's our thumb, which is the trigger, something happens that makes us react. And that reaction automatically flips our brain, and our brain separates into our feelings, which are here, and our thoughts, which are here, similar to what I said before of our heart and our brain, and that actually separates. So an example is somebody is hijacked. I just want to use that as an example. The trigger is you see a gun pointed at you. You straight away go into the feelings part of your brain, which is survival, and you stop breathing. You don't, you do whatever you can to get out of that dangerous situation. You're not thinking, is that a Glock or what model is that? I wonder where he got it. You're not thinking anything. You're thinking survive because your brain is separated. When later, when that happens, adrenaline surges through into the brain because of that trigger, and that adrenaline takes 72 hours to drain again. So just to explain what PTSD is, because that comes in with anxiety, is every single time You think about that gun for that next 72 hours, a surge of adrenaline comes through. After 72 hours, the chemicals start to drain, and that's why we no longer debrief immediately when somebody's in a trauma or a tragedy right away. We know we work through the body in the beginning, we don't work through the brain for the first 72 hours. It's a total shift from how I was trained to how we work now. So what we do know, though, is that adrenaline starts to drain, and that goes back down to what we call wise brain. Wise brain is where you can think, think and feel and make a good decision with all parts of your brain together, and that's the ideal way to function. When you get flipped, people don't always go into only feelings. You've ever spoken to people who are totally logical, and actually you want to say, do you have emotions? Are there any emotions there? They can get stuck in their totally analytical thinking brains. They also are all actuaries or engineers or accountants. No, sorry, I'm just joking. I'm just joking. they're not in education, the ones who get stuck in their thinking brain. But this now, every time you'd, after the hijacking, let's just say you've got back down to wise brain where you're making better life decisions, And you go to a robot where a beggar comes at your house, at your window, at the exact place where you see the gun. It's a month later, you get that exact trigger if you're being hijacked. Your brain flips like that, and you're like, this person has been at the robot, I know his name, I give him lunch every day, I can't believe I got such a fright, what's wrong with me? But that surged another 72 hours worth of adrenaline into your brain, because your brain treats it the same. And that then has to go down. Just by the way, post-traumatic stress disorder is more than six months of adrenaline that just doesn't drain, ### Passage: Why mental health days feed avoidance [67:36-69:24, 382 words] Note (AI): Argues against letting anxious children skip school and tests. Offers the 'government's rule' script for getting a reluctant child into the car. Ilanit Gerson, guest [67:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4056): > The other big thing, big step to tell parents is don't let your children avoid. Anxiety is about avoiding. So you say, you know what, there's this new craze, mental health days. I've told my child they're allowed three mental health days a term. So today he's very stressed, there's two vocabulary tests and this or that. So I've told my kid, okay, you're entitled to a mental health day, you can have that. And I hear it all the time from parents in every community, from every place. What does that do? I've got something I don't want to get to in school, so I'm going to avoid it and stay home, with mom and dad's permission, never mind. But now I have the whole weekend to worry about that test that was on Friday, and Monday I have to face everything I missed on Friday, plus the tests that I thought I was so clever to miss, plus whatever else I missed, and I've had the whole weekend build up, and that mountain, which in my mind was this big, is now this big. And that mountain gets bigger, so we think we're helping when we let our children avoid. We feel like the worst parents in the world, but you take them out of the car crying, and you frog march them into school. School refusal is one of the biggest slippery slopes for parents when they're losing control, and that starts with these mental health or shame. Today's going to be hard, just stay home and avoid it. The minute we let our children start avoiding external deadlines, we're on a slippery slope. The rule we always say is, I wish You don't have to go to school, but we live in South Africa. The rule of the government is that you have to go to school. It's not my rule, it's the government's rule, so get in the car, we're going to school. And it actually works because it's a rule and children listen to rules. But the minute we start letting them avoid, everything gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and by the time it gets to me or to some professional intervention, it's so much bigger than it ever had to be in the beginning. ### Passage: Pocket money system and consistent consequences [104:21-106:32, 446 words] Note (AI): A concrete, step-by-step reward system with a 7.20 deadline and a weekly payday. Includes the warning that shifting the goals collapses it. Ilanit Gerson, guest [104:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6261): > The other one is you can use a pocket money system, which also works. What that means is, let's say you can't get our kids to school on time, so we put a system into place with very concrete steps. If by 7.20 in the morning, you are, have had breakfast, you've brushed your teeth, your shoes are on, and your school bag is on your bag, you're going to get 10 rand. If you're not ready at 7.20, you don't get the money. That way, when they start fighting at breakfast and everything goes everywhere, they refuse to eat breakfast, you've got a consequence. If you're not going in the car, you haven't eaten breakfast, but remember, if you're not ready on time, you're not getting your money. First few week, first week or two, that kid's like, I don't care, I don't want the money anyway. If you're lucky and you've got more than one child, when their sibling gets more money than them on payday on Friday, it kills them. It's not the point of the money, it's the point that brother or sister got more than them, and that makes them take the system seriously. If you've only got one child, will you actually still do a payday? You have a family meeting, and it goes once a week, and you say, let's add up what you've earned. Okay, you could have earned forty rand, you could have earned a hundred rand, but you've ended up with twenty rand. Well done, there were two times that you were ready. And often they will put on that whole teenage I don't care thing, but children do want approval and they do want to please their parents. When we are consistent and don't keep changing the goals, they actually lack to do things right when they can. The problem is when we keep changing the goals. So what parents can't resist doing is now you've got the money system, and then the money system is only to be in the car at 7.20, let's just say, but that afternoon, that night at supper, he's eating with his fingers and you say, that's it, buddy, I'm taking away 10 rand. You've just, the whole system's just shifted, the goals changed, the system, it becomes, I don't know if anyone's on discovery, if you try figure out vitality, it becomes vitality, it's so complicated, you don't know what you're doing, so you just pay every month and don't give, don't do it anyway. So I don't know if anyone is doing that. But the system has to be so easy and so transparent that it works. ### Quotes > "the most anxious child controls the home, and that's from age two till twenty." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=760) > "So manipulative doesn't mean malicious, but it means trying to get their needs met." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1114) > "the anxious child doesn't just flake when you criticize him, he melts into nothing," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1481) > "Anxious children need the opposite of your intuition." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [37:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2275) > "That hole gets bigger the more you give in," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2278) > "It's a junk thought. That's okay. We all have them. Now let's get on with our day." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [45:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2711) > "You can't use breathing in a crisis if you haven't practiced it before." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [63:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3839) > "when my kids flip me now, my mother comes out my mouth. It's this weirdest thing." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [66:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4017) > "So you always, parenting moments are always after the incident, not in the incident." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [99:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5960) > "So that actually means our home is a casino. Behave however you want, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but keep trying." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [103:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6233) > "Negotiating only happens when you allow it." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · [107:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6468) ### Claims > "to me it feels like leadership in a school pre-COVID is a completely different ballgame to leadership in a school post-COVID." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Post-COVID teen anxiety · [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=118) > "I actually stopped working in schools in the middle of COVID. Most of the schools I was in, I just finished like my fourth or fifth degree, and my job was to stand outside the bathrooms and sanitize all the children's hands," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Post-COVID teen anxiety · [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=196) > "COVID brought a level of awareness of death into the world that our children hadn't had before. Research shows that from the age before, the age of about eight or nine is where children understood death as permanence, and up till then there was magical thinking, and from COVID that age has changed to four or five," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Post-COVID teen anxiety · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=247) > "And teenagers are much more black and white with thinking, and they will take things to, we nuanced as adults, but teenagers will often hear worries, politics, corruption, the potholes in the road, whatever it is that's bothering their families, and take it onto quite an extreme level." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Post-COVID teen anxiety · [05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=330) > "And when our brain is exposed to something that developmentally we're not ready to see, it actually causes a trauma. We're seeing that as an example with children who've been exposed to porn, where they act as if they've been sexually abused, and they haven't, and everything is fine, but all of those symptoms come out." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Screen exposure · [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=461) > "My first degree was a mistake, it was a B.Com in computer programming. But that means I'm okay with technology, and I cannot keep up with what my teenagers are on." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Screen exposure · [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=537) > "we collude at times when my child was shouted at by his teacher, and he goes to the bathroom and phones me. I've already phoned the principal and got that teacher disciplined before the teacher's finished the lesson, and possibly I'm not helping my child learn to tolerate the stress and manage his own life." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=615) > "Where we are lacking in the industry of helping our teenagers and our children is that we've become very good with the terminologies and the languages, and it sounds very fancy to have the conversation, but there's not enough provision of tools, actionable things to do" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parents regaining control · [11:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=672) > "The first behavior that I'll always find is when I say to the parents, who's in control at your home, the most anxious child controls the home, and that's from age two till twenty." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=753) > "They very, very tired, so tired that you actually start thinking you've got a very lazy child because they use so much energy worrying." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [14:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=844) > "They'll ask triggering questions that they know you will react to so that you'll stay with them for longer. Bedtime is never a good time to chat, but The anxious children will do that." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [15:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=957) > "they start to learn how to manipulate to get their needs met. So manipulative doesn't mean malicious, but it means trying to get their needs met." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1111) > "We as parents have limited energy and ability to cope with our child getting very, very fixated on something. So we usually give in. We give them a later bedtime, we let them sleep in our bed, we make them a different supper, and our kids feel great because that hole has closed for a few minutes until they've done or got what they wanted," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1228) > "you can be smug when you've got an in-the-box child, which is 60% of children. Those are the children who are just a pleasure to bring up." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [22:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1359) > "parents of anxious children are very scared to criticize their anxious child, whereas to another child, you can say a normal comment, eat with a fork and knife," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1466) > "I actually work with a lot of people who do lose their jobs because their boss doesn't like them and they can't handle that or get married and a month later are in my office saying I need to get divorced this isn't working she doesn't always do exactly what I want" >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Long-term outcomes · [28:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1698) > "The one thing is there's comorbidities, that forty percent is not just anxious. They're anxious and ADD, they're anxious and have certain learning difficulties. So it's not that simple, and often anxiety is going to mask the real underlying issue." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [29:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1764) > "Anxiety is an okay emotion, actually. It gets us out of bed and gets us doing what we have to do. But anxiety is dysfunctional when it stops us from facing things that everyone else our age can face or handle or do." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [30:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1803) > "And I do four or five sessions where we get parents to take control again, where there is a bedtime, where there's a supper time, where there's a bedtime routine, where there's a time in the house where everyone switches off phones and has to look at each other," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1963) > "So my first advice to parents is you create three to five rules in your home and you dial those rules. You say yes to everything else because your kids are going to beat you on everything else." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2029) > "DBT is an approach that was made for people actually originally with personality disorders who wanted people to be close to them, but the minute they got close to them, they would reject them or punish them or push them away." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Distress tolerance · [34:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2093) > "One of the top tools that that talks about is distress tolerance, and that's what you teach teenagers and parents." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Distress tolerance · [35:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2112) > "And they have to sit with the feeling that they cannot protect their child forever from how hard adulting is, from how hard the world is, and they have to start seeing what happens as learning." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Distress tolerance · [36:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2184) > "sixty percent of children can be intuitively parented. Anxious children need the opposite of your intuition. That hole gets bigger the more you give in, the more they get it, and you need to actually reverse the whole parenting, the whole cycle of intuitive parenting." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [37:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2271) > "So depression is a result of a lot of anxiety that has flooded the brain, and that's why we have to deal with it in the right way." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [43:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2601) > "you explain that we each have two to three hundred thoughts a day that are junk within all our other thoughts. We are adults, we're not as bright and clever as our teenagers who have four to six hundred thoughts a day." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [43:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2627) > "Anxiety is when we take a thought that we know is junk, our brain knows it's junk, but our heart's telling us it's true, and therefore we have to keep on pursuing it." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2677) > "so when a child worries, we normalize their worries are normal. We listen to their whole story to try and figure out what is really, what are they really saying? Why are they saying they've got no friends?" >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [47:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2845) > "We acknowledge what they're feeling. So with small children, you say, you're feeling sad because no one played with you at break." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [47:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2858) > "And it's quite amazing when you allow children to feel, instead of trying to rescue them and take it away, they pass through those feelings very fast, and then they can get to the other side." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [48:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2929) > "And the saddest part is what teenagers are starting to use to threaten parents is self-harm, and that's really scary." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Self-harm · [49:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2992) > "The biggest place where anxiety sits is where parents are in different pages. So mom is too kind because she feels bad for little Timmy, dad thinks Timmy's never going to keep his first job, so he comes down and screams at Timmy." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [51:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3079) > "Stop, normalize with the child, see what they are actually feeling, don't do the rescue fix jump, and don't ever try rationalize." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [54:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3280) > "that's when I do think at that point is when professional intervention is advised." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Self-harm · [55:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3341) > "I did my thesis, a second thesis on, I called it Surfing Safely, and I created a high school curriculum for grades seven, eight, and nine, which we ran into forty schools around South Africa," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Screen exposure · [56:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3388) > "Then my own children turned that age, my oldest kid's now twenty-one, but I got teenage boys online, and I was like, I don't know how we control this anymore. I stopped doing Surfing Safely, I stopped giving advice on technology, because I felt like such a hypocrite." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Screen exposure · [57:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3423) > "So I do believe the biggest work of parents of teenagers is creating a relationship with their, their children that is real and accessible and a high level of connection," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Screen exposure · [57:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3461) > "My don't is don't rescue. Straight away, your gut is, my poor kid, I'm gonna help you, I don't want you to be in distress. So first thing is stop rescuing, stop trying to fix, take a deep breath." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [58:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3510) > "There's a Professor Daniel Siegel, who if any of you haven't heard of, is worth looking at. He's got a lot of YouTube videos, and his expertise is emotional regulation. He has a model called the hand model in flipping the lid." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [58:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3529) > "When later, when that happens, adrenaline surges through into the brain because of that trigger, and that adrenaline takes 72 hours to drain again." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [60:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3604) > "post-traumatic stress disorder is more than six months of adrenaline that just doesn't drain, because it keeps being re-traumatized all the time." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [62:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3725) > "So when I work with anxious parents, one of the first things we do as part of bedtime routine is everyone has to breathe five breaths before they go to sleep. You can't use breathing in a crisis if you haven't practiced it before." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [63:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3831) > "So the first step you need to learn as parents is as your child flips your brain, you need to take three very deep breaths and get your brain back down again to wise, holistic functioning," >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [65:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3941) > "One of the signs of dysregulating is too much negotiating, and you will see that the parent and the child are negotiating with each other." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Brain regulation and breathing · [66:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3964) > "The minute we let our children start avoiding external deadlines, we're on a slippery slope." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Avoidance and school refusal · [68:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4132) > "It's not my rule, it's the government's rule, so get in the car, we're going to school. And it actually works because it's a rule and children listen to rules." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Avoidance and school refusal · [69:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4145) > "If something has happened and a child has missed part of an exam session or a whole exam session, nine times out of ten, there's going to be something that crops up in the very next exam session because they're moving into avoidant behavior." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Avoidance and school refusal · [69:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4169) > "you need to catch your kids when they're doing good things and when they're just being kids and when things are good and be aware that in our very busy lives, we're not only giving attention in crises, because then we teach our children to lurch from crisis to crisis, because that's how they get attention." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Negative attention · [71:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4261) > "And often, parents of anxious children talk about their children in front of their children, literally in front." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Negative attention · [72:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4360) > "And we can do whatever we want with children. If they are not well slept and well fed, they're not going to learn optimally in the morning." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parent-school partnership · [77:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4672) > "So once you've chosen a school, parents need to work with that school. And if you don't trust the school and you really think that they are idiots and don't know what they're doing, put your child in a school that you trust." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parent-school partnership · [78:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4714) > "Anxious parents tell you what to do, they don't, they're not saying, how can I help Timmy, they're saying, I need you to understand, Timmy is anxious and this is what he needs." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parent-school partnership · [82:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4936) > "definitely you can unlearn anxious thinking, and we're seeing more and more research about that." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Long-term outcomes · [83:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5029) > "The best therapeutic tool I ever learned in supervision was to say, I'm so confused, and make the person explain to you what they've just said." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Normalising worries · [85:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5117) > "It's called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, How to Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Adele Faber and Elaine Maslish." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Normalising worries · [86:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5167) > "A lot of stuff that's teaching us to turn our kids into little adults, but that obviously is part of what's leading to so much anxiety." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Difficult conversations · [87:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5243) > "when a kid asks a very deep question, a political thing about death, about grandma, the first thing you always say to them is, what do you know?" >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Difficult conversations · [87:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5274) > "So if we keep telling our brains that we are experiencing a daily trauma in traffic, our body is going to start experiencing a trauma response, right?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Difficult conversations · [91:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5482) > "So I wouldn't even see the child in therapy. I would only work with the parent, and once the parent has managed to regulate themself and learn that, learn that unanxious way of talking and living, generally by then I wouldn't even need to see the child because they were actually teaching the child by example." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Anxious parents · [93:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5619) > "but he, his anxiety comes out physically, that he will vomit and get headaches, and, and I know that physically what he's feeling is real," >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Signs of anxious children · [94:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5673) > "You can't parent or educate or change behavior in a meltdown or in an anxious moment. You can only work within that scenario and do damage control and only work with it afterwards in a calm moment, a few hours, a few days, or a later time." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Parents regaining control · [95:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5743) > "So the gift of anxiety is it actually comes into your body before you realize it's in your brain." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Signs of anxious children · [97:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5874) > "So one is screens, but you need to make sure you're real, and the minute you're not consistent, you go back to square one where the children go back to casino. It's called casino mentality in psychology." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Consistent consequences · [104:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6248) > "If by 7.20 in the morning, you are, have had breakfast, you've brushed your teeth, your shoes are on, and your school bag is on your bag, you're going to get 10 rand. If you're not ready at 7.20, you don't get the money." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Consistent consequences · [104:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6273) > "The point is, the minute they start negotiating, you stop. The minute they negotiating, they're trying to take control from you." >, Ilanit Gerson, guest · topic: Consistent consequences · [106:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1616582_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6413) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) If your house feels like a war zone every morning, your teen controls the Wi-Fi password, and “I’m sick” means another day of vomiting before a test, this fireside chat is your lifeline. Educational psychologist, Elenet Gerson, unpacked, for a room full of exhausted parents and teachers, why anxiety has hijacked our kids since COVID, how it turns bedtime into a hostage negotiation, and, most importantly, delivering the exact scripts, rules, and breathing tricks that actually shrink the panic hole instead of feeding it. No fluff, no blame, just tools that work even when your 15-year-old swears they’re “fine” while clutching their stomach. Listen before the next meltdown costs you another night’s sleep. Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Making informed decisions (Grade 9 subject choices) | Dr Annie van As - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-11-05-making-informed-decisions-grade-9-subject/ - Date: 2025-11-05 (as at 2025-11-05) - Guest: Annie van As - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Grade 9 subject choices, University admission and APS, Maths versus maths literacy, Further studies subjects, Private higher education, Career planning backwards, Subject skills and careers - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1614813 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss ### About the guest: Annie van As - Varsity College - Studied at the Northwest University, a public university, where she began in foundation phase. She then did her honours in education, a master's and a PhD. She previously worked as a lecturer on the Sandton campus. In their own words: > "So after I actually made it through my first year, I started becoming passionate about education and children, and, I couldn't stop studying. I did my honors in education, my master's, and now my PhD," [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2223) > "So with, I actually studied at the Northwest University, a public university, and we were so many students in the class, I think like three hundred." [37:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2251) > "So I used to work on the Sandton campus as a lecturer as well, and we actually had a variety of students who had special needs and needed, additional support, and those students actually did amazing." [40:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2448) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A Grade 9 subject-choice evening at Edu Inc, an independent IEB school in Fourways, Johannesburg. It is hosted by headmaster Gershom Aitchison and executive head Jacqueline Aitchison. Ms Pretorius explains public university pass levels and APS scores. The hosts cover further studies subjects, gap years and changing subjects. Guest Dr Annie van As shares her own path into teaching and makes the case for private higher education with smaller classes and support for students with additional learning needs. Subject teachers then describe the skills and careers linked to maths, maths literacy, economics, business studies, physical sciences, history, life sciences, geography and life orientation. **Key ideas** - Gershom Aitchison argues that what matters is having studied, not the specific degree. He says good English and maths marks keep almost every door open. ([03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=192) [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=260) [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=300)) - Ms Pretorius explains that the APS scores the six best subjects, excluding life orientation, from one to seven each. Gershom adds that the published APS is only a minimum. ([24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1463) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1518) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1616)) - Jacqueline Aitchison recommends planning backwards from the lifestyle a child wants, to the qualification, the university and then the subjects needed. ([47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853) [47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853) [48:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2912)) - Annie van As says private higher education institutions offer smaller classes and support for students with additional learning needs, who receive the same qualification. ([35:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2140) [37:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2270) [38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2284) [41:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2504)) - The hosts argue that maths literacy has become practical 'business maths' that counts towards the APS. Core maths is still needed for physics and medicine. ([71:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4269) [71:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4269) [72:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4338) [80:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4823)) - Further studies subjects are described as first-year university level. They are worth taking only with passion and strong marks, mainly for universities that require them. ([52:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3169) [52:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3176) [53:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3187) [55:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3359)) - Subject choices can be changed, and a wrong decision is not the end of the world. Both the hosts and the guest say this. ([39:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2369) [43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2614) [107:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6420)) - Teachers present each subject mainly through the skills it builds, such as synthesis, systems thinking, source analysis and critical thinking. ([07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=472) [92:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5520) [95:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5726) [103:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6209)) **Planning subject choices backwards** ([47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853) [47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853) [48:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2912) [51:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3106)) 1. Picture yourself as a working adult: what lifestyle and earnings you want. 2. Work out the type of qualification needed to afford that lifestyle. 3. Identify which university is best known for that qualification. 4. Determine which subjects, and at what level, are needed for acceptance. 5. Calculate your current APS from your latest report to see the gap. **Lessons** - Ms Pretorius advises checking each university programme's own requirements on its website, and using job shadowing to test a field before committing. ([19:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1188) [20:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1253)) - Gershom Aitchison warns against choosing subjects because of friends, a teacher, or a parent's own past. He also cautions against choosing degrees for status. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1939) [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1997) [65:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3914) [65:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3949)) - Jacqueline Aitchison suggests learners calculate their APS on every report card to see how far they are from their goal. ([51:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3069) [51:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3106)) - The hosts advise against taking both maths subjects 'to see how it goes', because core maths tends to suffer. ([81:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4911) [82:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4939)) - Annie van As advises students with additional learning needs to explain their situation to lecturers when registering so they receive support. ([41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2460) [41:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2504)) **Who it's for:** Grade 9 learners and their parents in South Africa who are choosing FET subjects. It also suits anyone wanting a plain explanation of APS scores, maths versus maths literacy, further studies subjects, and public versus private higher education options. **Facts stated in the episode** - Ms Pretorius says the maximum APS used by most programmes is 42, from six subjects scored one to seven. ([24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1463)) - Gershom Aitchison says the school's pass mark is fifty percent, which yields a bachelor's pass. ([63:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3795)) - Physical sciences requires combined English, maths and physical sciences marks totalling 180, according to the physics teacher. ([79:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4740)) - Further studies subjects fall under the ISC, the International Secondary Certificate, not the IEB, says Jacqueline Aitchison. ([55:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3324)) - Gershom Aitchison says a matriculant last year got into St. Andrews with two A-level subjects and the IEB. ([57:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3432)) - Ms Snow says three Grade 11 learners are doing further studies: two in English and one in maths. ([68:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4136)) - Annie van As says Varsity College has about thirty to fifty students in a class. ([38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2284)) - Gershom Aitchison says there is no final IEB life orientation exam; learners write the CAT instead. ([104:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6285)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Which subjects are compulsory from Grade 10 at this school?** A: Gershom Aitchison says life orientation, English, a first additional language (IsiZulu or Afrikaans) and a maths subject (mathematics or maths literacy) are required. Learners then choose three electives. ([02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=168)) **Q: How is a South African APS score calculated?** A: Ms Pretorius explains that each subject gets one to seven points, the six best subjects excluding life orientation are counted, and most programmes use a maximum of 42. Gershom Aitchison adds that the published APS is a minimum to exceed. ([24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1463) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1518) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1616)) **Q: What marks do you need for a bachelor's, diploma or higher certificate pass?** A: Ms Pretorius says a bachelor's pass needs around 50% in four subjects. A diploma pass needs 40% in four subjects. A higher certificate pass needs 40% in at least two subjects. ([22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1325)) **Q: Should my child take core maths or maths literacy?** A: Ms Snow cites a guideline that English plus maths at the end of Grade 9 should total at least 120 for core maths. Jacqueline Aitchison says maths literacy now counts towards the APS and opens many commerce degrees, but not medicine. ([64:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3870) [67:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4068) [72:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4338)) **Q: Is a further studies maths or English subject worth taking?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says only with passion and consistently high marks. She says they are mainly needed for Ivy League-level universities, which require two. Gershom Aitchison notes they do not count towards the APS but raise core subject marks. ([52:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3169) [55:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3359) [57:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3464)) **Q: Are private universities a good option for students who struggle in big classes or have dyslexia?** A: Annie van As says private institutions such as Varsity College have about 30 to 50 students a class. She says they offer extra time, tutors and trained lecturers, and students receive the same qualification. ([37:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2270) [38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2284) [41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2460)) **Q: Can my child change subjects after Grade 10 starts?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says yes: the choice is not cast in stone. It can be changed within IEB cut-off dates, for example by the end of term one in Grade 10. ([43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2614) [107:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6420)) **Q: Is a gap year a good idea if my child is unsure what to study?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says a gap year should be service work, not idle time. She advises getting a bachelor's pass and starting, since most degrees let students choose majors after first year. ([59:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3545) [59:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3597) [61:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3703) [62:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3752)) **Q: What is the difference between business studies and economics?** A: Miss Tolala says economics focuses on what happens globally and in the economy as a whole, while business studies looks at what happens internally in a company. ([84:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5086)) ### Passage: Why the fact of studying matters more [04:20-06:17, 351 words] Note (AI): The headmaster uses a show of hands to argue that subject choice does not fix a lifelong career. This reframes the stakes for anxious families. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=260): > And what would be an interesting thing as an exercise to do right now is to ask the audience here to put up their hands and tell me how many of you are practicing what you actually studied for when you started? And I'm going to include the panel. How many of us are actually doing what we studied at university? One, two, some of the teachers. So just as a comparison, how many, how many of us are doing, not doing what we studied at university? And that's more than, than put up their hands in the first place. And what I want to use, use that as an illustration of is that it's not what you study that's important, it is the fact that you have studied that is important. And yes, there are certain things you want to know that your doctors have studied to be doctors, and you want to know that your engineers have studied to be engineers, but there are a lot of professions out there where a general degree gives you access to the specializations that you need. A lot of us studied general undergrad degrees that allowed us to do a PGCE, and then has allowed us to go on and do other higher degrees and certificates, master's degrees, and things like that, that are specific to what we are busy doing right now. What that means is, I'm hoping it takes some of the pressure off you. That the decisions now about your subject choice is not about what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. What you're going to do for the rest of your life is be a human being that needs to be able to maintain relationships, that can do a job if asked to do so, can work collaboratively with people, collaboratively with people, can use technology and AI to facilitate your, your work output and productivity, and more importantly, be a decent human being, someone who's going to study for the rest of their lives, and that's what those decisions are going to be. ### Passage: Annie van As on finding teaching and smaller classes [35:40-38:31, 461 words] Note (AI): The guest tells how her father guided her into foundation phase teaching, how she nearly quit, and why private institutions with small classes suit some students. Annie van As, guest [35:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2140): > So just to share with you, when I was in grade nine, I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I wanted to actually become like a pop star, but if you know me, I can't sing. I've been, I haven't been selected to be in any choir. So my dad said, you know what, let's think of another, direction for your life, because I don't think that's going to work out. And thankfully, I believed him. I'm like, okay, maybe I need to do something else. So we started chatting and he said, what do you like to do? Or what are you passionate about? And I said, I love kids. Like I love children and they make me feel so happy and, you know, I, I will rather spend time with children than adults because they're so lovable. So my dad said, okay, why don't you go and study foundation phase? I said, okay, let me try and, study foundation phase to become a teacher. So I started studying, foundation phase, and my first year when I actually had to go to school to do my practicals, I hated it. It was like, oh my weirdo, I started studying the wrong thing, I didn't choose the correct subjects, but my dad said, okay, just, just try. Try and go again and, just get it through the first year. So I said, okay, let me just get through the first year. So after I actually made it through my first year, I started becoming passionate about education and children, and, I couldn't stop studying. I did my honors in education, my master's, and now my PhD, and I, I actually wanted to thank my dad for, you know, guiding me and supporting me to actually make the right decision. So he knew me better than I actually Myself at that stage. So with, I actually studied at the Northwest University, a public university, and we were so many students in the class, I think like three hundred. So I didn't pay that much attention always, but, I, I got through my qualification. But what I wanted to say, if you know you're just going to become a number and you are struggling to, to focus in big groups, then a private higher education institution is also a good way and a good option, because, with, our company, we are called Varsity College. so we have about thirty to fifty students in a class, and we focus on equipping our students with the necessary skills and knowledge to be able to become teachers, but not just normal teachers, like teachers that can integrate robotics and coding and technology, and really equip them Of the, the skills that they need. ### Passage: Planning subject choices backwards from lifestyle [47:33-50:06, 403 words] Note (AI): Jacqueline Aitchison lays out a step-by-step method: lifestyle, then qualification, then university, then subjects. Families can use it at home. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853): > if you're struggling with this, sometimes it helps to do it backwards. So you sit together and you go, right, let's cast forward. Let's go to when you are a functional working adult, no longer draining my bank account. What does your life look like? What do you want it to look like? What would you like it to be? What are you earning? How, what's your lifestyle like? There's your ideal. Now we go back a step. What qualification, what is the type of qualification I need to afford that lifestyle? Oh, okay, hang on. If I want the Maserati and the six-figure mention and, and, and, okay, yeah, it's, it's, it's the actuary type level qualifications, that's probably not for me. So let's, okay, let's scale things down and we have the conversation about being more realistic. So we go from the lifestyle I want to the qualification I need. What paperwork, what letters do I need to make that real? That then I go, right, so what university will take me into that qualification, will give me that? Because remember, universities and tertiary education is, is also quite, it also has trends. You know, for a long time, if you wanted to be a CA, you went to the University of Parramatta, Parramatta. For 10 or 12 years, that was the place to be. Even now, if you want to be an engineer, you know you want to go to UP. That's the pla- you know, universities get reputations for being very, very good in certain faculties. It's what gives them their credibility from a global standpoint. It's how they rank them. So that's my qualification. Where's the best place I can go to get me that qualification? That's your next one down. And then your next one down is, and what subjects and at what level do I need to be operating to get acceptance into that? So what subjects do I need to be choosing now? So can you see how sometimes it narrows down your thinking? Instead of sitting going, I'm just going to start throwing darts into mist, and wherever the dart lands, that's the subject I'm going to choose, and I'm going to just figure it out from there. Flip it around. Go backwards, because it narrows everything into a funnel, and you go, that Maserati means I do need to get my maths right. ### Passage: What a gap year really is [59:05-62:18, 513 words] Note (AI): The hosts challenge the idle gap year and explain that modern degrees let first-years explore before choosing majors. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [59:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3545): > Let's be clear, grade nines, about what a gap year is, because we've heard it all. I'm not sure what I want to do, so I'm just going to take a year to figure it out. You've just made it ten times harder to get back into anything academic, okay? The original gap year, back in the day, What a gap year was, what it was made and intended to be. It was generally run by churches and, humanitarian groups, and gap years were when people would matriculate and then go overseas for a year to build houses in Indonesia out of banana palms for poor people. It was missionary work, it was service work. You spent the year going to be in service of communities. That was the original intention of a gap year. A gap year was never lying on the couch, playing Xbox while I figure out what I want to do. Okay? So if you guys genuinely want to have a conversation about gap years, we are going to have some tough questions for you, like, where are you spending this gap year? Which quest are you going to? Gershom Aitchison, host [60:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3618): > How are you growing as a human? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [60:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3619): > How are you growing and giving service as a human on this gap year? Cause if your plan is to sit on the couch while I figure myself out, dude, no. No. Your, your parents and your school have prepared you better than that. So anyone sitting with Gapio, let's park that discussion for now. Gershom Aitchison, host [60:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3652): > Please strike that from the record. That did not happen. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [60:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3657): > So there was service happening, yeah. The, the general response that as a school we would have to the Gapio conversation is, you know, other than if you're not doing Quest, if you're not doing that sort of thing, it doesn't actually matter. I hope what's coming across from the two conversations you heard there is that it doesn't actually matter what your first year looks like. Just do something. It can be the broadest Bachelor of Arts, it can be philosophy, sociology, anthropology, really... No, not stats. Don't do stats. But it can be the broadest degree, because unlike in my day where you had to choose your majors straight off the bat, and then you had to like work on these majors every year, and you got to pick up a few electives on the side. In most degrees now, you don't even have to choose your majors until the end of your first year, which is fabulous, I think. You can spend your whole first year actually discovering what you enjoy. You can do a semester of this, you can do a semester of that, you don't have to do a whole year course like we did. And you can spend a year or two figuring out what you actually enjoy, and what floats your boat. And once you've decided what blows your hair back, then you can start curating the remainder of your degree. They really have made it that much more accessible now. ### Passage: Rethinking maths literacy as business maths [71:09-73:02, 304 words] Note (AI): This addresses the most debated choice and says what maths literacy now covers and which degrees it opens. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [71:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4269): > And he's advocating to change the name of math literacy to business maths, because math literacy has gotten quite a raw deal. Back at, when it was first introduced, yes, it was your math light, you know, your free option, your non-paid math. it wasn't, you couldn't get into varsity with math lit, it wasn't, you couldn't count it towards an APS, it, it really was pretty feeble. and actually, just as a, an interesting point, I don't know if the teachers even know this, when we opened Edu Inc, we didn't offer math lit, you could only take math core. But down the years, math lit has become B-business maths. It really is business maths. It is the math you would take if you're going to run a business one day. And it is far more... In fact, now I'm at the point where if I could make mathlet a compulsory subject, even if you did core math, I would, because you're doing depreciations, interest rates, all of the things that you actually use, you do tax, you do all of these things that you actually need to be a functional adult. So it is a very valuable subject that is now recognized by the universities that does contribute towards your APS. You can't go into medicine on mathlet, but you can go into a whole lot more commerce degrees than ever before. You can go into some of the bachelor sciences and move across to medicine if you've been on the mathlet stream. There are far more options available to you now. Mathlet is no longer the throwaway stepchild of math. It is a, a, a good subject in its own right. So if your thinking has been the traditional thinking of it's not worth the go, times have changed on that subject. ### Passage: Physical sciences: skills, careers and entry requirements [76:52-80:21, 550 words] Note (AI): The physics teacher links maths to physics, names careers, and explains the 180-mark entry calculation. Mr Hall, intro voice or played clip [76:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4612): > So physical sciences is the other side of the coin to the mathematics argument, which is where math core is essential. The, the way that you think that, that you're going to approach the subjects is, or mathematics specifically, is going to directly lead to how you approach physical sciences. The, the algebra that you learn in grade ten, grade eleven, and grade twelve math is going to be directly relevant to help you with the, the physics especially, and balancing out the, the, the stoichiometric calculations in chemistry that you'll be doing as well. there is... Jacqueline Aitchison, host [77:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4651): > Careers? Mr Hall, intro voice or played clip [77:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4653): > In terms of careers, so I know that Wits has been considering adding physical sciences to its medicine requirements, just because of the critical thinking skills that comes with the added physical sciences, and the chemistry as well, and leading that into medicine. anything related to engineering, anything that involves the manipulation of, systems, physical systems, is going to need, knowledge of physics and the, the forces and the, the kinematics behind it. it's very much the physical world that you're going to be dealing with. even if you're going to something like, mechanics, where you're dealing with physical systems, even if you don't take phys... If, if somebody took physical sciences, their ability to interact with the concepts that they will deal with, the way that the motors are moving and functioning at, at a fundamental level and the chemistry behind the combustion, those will all benefit from having a background knowledge of physical sciences, especially with the practicals that we do and the way that you engage with these physical systems. So that background skill, even if it's not the direct knowledge of doing a degree in physics or in chemistry, those, that background knowledge is going to be useful to engage with them. Poppenell's calculation. In terms of the consideration from our side for you to take physical sciences, there is the math requirement of getting a combined mark of 120 for English and math, and then above that you need to add your physical sciences mark to get a total of 180 to be considered to take physical sciences. Now, because we've semesterized physical sciences, or natural sciences into physical sciences and life sciences, and for you guys specifically, you did the physical sciences aspect in the first semester. So, from term one and leading up to the July exams in term two, that, that mark in your term two is going to be what you would add to your, your calculation to see do you get 180. So it'll be your English and math mark at the end of this year, and then your term two mark, where you wrote the July exam, and that'll be taken into consideration for whether you can take physical sciences. anything above that is fantastic, but that sixty percent average is what we're looking for. You know, can you cope with good English marks, understand the comprehension and engage with the, the wordy lengthy questions, the mathematics for how you think about things in a systematic way, and then the content itself, do you have an interest in engaging with the physics and the chemistry behind the minutia of how the physical world works at a macro and a micro scale? ### Quotes > "it's not what you study that's important, it is the fact that you have studied that is important." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=300) > "So an APS score is the minimum. Don't aim for the minimum, aim for above," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1616) > "So don't choose degrees on status and ego, because it's the fastest way to misery and not actually succeeding in that space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [33:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1997) > "Because like I said, your parents know you better than you know, you know yourself." >, Annie van As, guest · [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2358) > "And every time I don't study for my maths exam, I'm actually chipping away at my Maserati." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [51:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3069) > "If you don't have a passion, don't bother. It's not worth it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [52:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3176) > "A gap year was never lying on the couch, playing Xbox while I figure out what I want to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [59:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3597) > "Get that bachelor's matric and just get in." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [62:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3760) > "Teachers come and go, you stuck with that subject for three years, all right?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [65:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3925) > "Please do not let the ghosts of your academic journey dictate what's going on." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [65:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3953) > "But remember that math is not just a personal torture device." >, Ms Snow, intro voice or played clip · [69:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4196) > "Mathlet is no longer the throwaway stepchild of math." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [72:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4362) ### Claims > "you have to take life orientation, you have to take English, you have to take a first additional language at Edu Inc, it can be IsiZulu or Eng- Afrikaans at this point, you have to take a math subject, mathematics or math literacy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=168) > "If you matriculate with good English marks and good math marks, you can pretty much study anything you need to study." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=192) > "The way we acquire a first additional language is very different to the way we acquire our first language, our home language, and those skills, it's be it through Afrikaans or IsiZulu in this case. Can be applied to other subjects, other languages." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Subject skills and careers · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=227) > "it's not what you study that's important, it is the fact that you have studied that is important." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=300) > "It's about the subjects that you're good at, it's the subjects that you are passionate about. Because it's going to get hard, it is going to be difficult. The should-do subjects are the first ones that get dropped and dropped and changed," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=390) > "So when we are looking at your careers now, we're not looking at knowledge. Knowledge is replaced and accessible by AI, by technology. We're looking at the skills that you are bringing into that space" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Subject skills and careers · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=472) > "If you are achieving sixties or you're getting a relatively good mark for it, then that's perfect. It's still considered a strong subject, okay?" >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [18:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1082) > "If you're not sure what you want to do, keep your options open, okay? Don't take subjects that will force you into a specific field, all right?" >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [19:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1188) > "for job shadowing, it could mean if you want to be a veterinarian, go and shadow at a local practice. meet with a local veterinarian, see what they do on a day-to-day." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: Career planning backwards · [20:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1253) > "So for a bachelor's degree, you would need around fifty percent in four of your subjects, right? Okay? That's for the bachelor's degree pass to say you can go study towards a bachelor's degree at a university, right? Then the next one, a diploma pass, you need forty percent in four of your subjects. And for the higher certificate pass, you need forty percent in at least two of your subjects." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: University admission and APS · [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1325) > "So with this, this is more practical skills, fitters, interners, plumbers, they are Less worried about your academic outcomes, it's more about practical skills." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: University admission and APS · [22:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1371) > "you are awarded a score from one to seven for it, okay? APS scores take your six best subjects, excluding allo, right? And from that, your APS score is calculated. So for most programs, the max score that they use would be a 42." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: University admission and APS · [24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1463) > "So again, just an example, if you get like a seven, a six, another six, two fives and a four, your APS would be around thirty-three, right?" >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: University admission and APS · [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1518) > "So an APS score is the minimum. Don't aim for the minimum, aim for above, because you have a better chance of getting in if that's the case," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1616) > "secondly, if you really want to go that course, and your kid's very indecisive, you could always look at doing an aptitude test or one of those tests that show your kid's interest with a registered professional." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: Career planning backwards · [31:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1878) > "Guys, choosing a degree is not like choosing a car, where you get it for status. It's about functionality, okay?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=1939) > "If you want an international passport around the world, become a teacher, especially from a country like South Africa, you will get expedited visas for most countries in the world because teacher shortage around the world is real." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Subject skills and careers · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2007) > "But all I can say is trust your parents, because they know you the best as well." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [35:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2123) > "So just to share with you, when I was in grade nine, I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I wanted to actually become like a pop star, but if you know me, I can't sing." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [35:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2140) > "So I started studying, foundation phase, and my first year when I actually had to go to school to do my practicals, I hated it." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [36:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2195) > "So after I actually made it through my first year, I started becoming passionate about education and children, and, I couldn't stop studying. I did my honors in education, my master's, and now my PhD," >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2223) > "So with, I actually studied at the Northwest University, a public university, and we were so many students in the class, I think like three hundred." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [37:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2251) > "if you know you're just going to become a number and you are struggling to, to focus in big groups, then a private higher education institution is also a good way and a good option," >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [37:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2270) > "with, our company, we are called Varsity College. so we have about thirty to fifty students in a class, and we focus on equipping our students with the necessary skills and knowledge to be able to become teachers," >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [38:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2284) > "So you need to pass your home language, your 50%, and then your first additional language, your 40%, and you also need to take on a, an African language." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: University admission and APS · [38:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2329) > "take the time to make the specific decision, and if you make a wrong decision, it's not the end of the world. the, you know, there's always other opportunities where you can go into another direction as well or do a bridging course" >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [39:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2369) > "So I used to work on the Sandton campus as a lecturer as well, and we actually had a variety of students who had special needs and needed, additional support, and those students actually did amazing." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [40:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2448) > "They got extra additional time to complete assessments. we had specific tutors to assess the, you know, support them as well. The lecturers were also all trained to provide that one-on-one support, and also, none of the students were aware of that." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2460) > "I think it's just important to also, trust your lecturers, and when you register, to explain your situation, and then from there, you will receive all the support that you, you need." >, Annie van As, guest · topic: Private higher education · [41:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2504) > "If you make a subject choice going into grade ten that doesn't work, we change it. We are not casting this decision in stone." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2614) > "when I did my first degree, it was marketing, and I hated every second of it. From day one, I knew I was in the wrong degree." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [44:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2670) > "Edu Inc is an academic school. So this is why you don't see on that subject graph, you don't see tourism and you don't see hospitality." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [44:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2698) > "The one thing we do differently, which is to your advantage, grade nines, is unlike most other schools, in fact, unlike every other high school that I know of, we don't stream the subjects." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [45:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2723) > "It means that our kids have the option. They can take two subjects in the same stream. They can do history and geography if they want to." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [46:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2811) > "if you're struggling with this, sometimes it helps to do it backwards. So you sit together and you go, right, let's cast forward." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2853) > "So we go from the lifestyle I want to the qualification I need. What paperwork, what letters do I need to make that real?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [48:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=2912) > "They, get them into the habit of calculating their APS on every report card they get, because it really quantifies how far away they are from the dream that they have." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [51:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3106) > "Further studies is when you are, you gotta be shooting the lights out in a subject and you gotta have a passion for it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [52:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3169) > "so yes, when you're doing further studies math in matric, you are doing first year varsity level math." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [53:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3187) > "FS does not fall under the IEB. FS falls under the ISC, the International Secondary Certificate." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [55:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3324) > "But if you want to go Ivy League, and that's maybe eight universities in America, to Harvard, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, it's your Edinburgh University in Scotland, Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews, that level, you need your FS subjects. You need two of them." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [55:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3359) > "We had one of our matrix last year who got into St. Andrews, two A-level subjects, and got straight in with the IEB." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [57:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3432) > "it does raise the bar of your core maths and your first lang- your home language English when you are actually doing it, because it's almost guaranteed you're going to get an A in those subjects" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [57:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3464) > "It was generally run by churches and, humanitarian groups, and gap years were when people would matriculate and then go overseas for a year to build houses in Indonesia out of banana palms for poor people." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [59:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3571) > "A gap year was never lying on the couch, playing Xbox while I figure out what I want to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Career planning backwards · [59:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3597) > "In most degrees now, you don't even have to choose your majors until the end of your first year, which is fabulous, I think." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [61:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3703) > "So if your kids are unsure, we're always gonna say, just get in. Get that bachelor's matric and just get in." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [62:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3752) > "You're talking about forty percent as a mark. That's not an option at Edu Inc. Our pass mark is fifty percent. And the reason why our pass mark is fifty percent is that if you're getting fifty percent plus for all your subjects, you will get a bachelor's pass." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [63:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3795) > "If you're not getting sixty percent for core maths at the end of grade nine, you will not have core maths as an option going into grade ten." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [64:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3870) > "this is how not to choose your subjects. Because my friends have taken it. I don't like the teacher, or I like the teacher, all right? Teachers come and go, you stuck with that subject for three years, all right?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [65:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3914) > "Parents, This is your child's academic journey. Please do not let the ghosts of your academic journey dictate what's going on." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [65:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=3949) > "and he recommends that in order to take mathematics, we want to take our English mark plus our math mark at the end of grade nine, and if you are not getting 120 at minimum, then, you should choose MathLit." >, Ms Snow, intro voice or played clip · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [67:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4068) > "We're getting at least a 75 in math, with a big, big, big passion in actually wanting to delve deep into the subject and," >, Ms Snow, intro voice or played clip · topic: Further studies subjects · [68:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4111) > "we've got three students in grade 11 doing further studies subjects, two in further studies English, and one in further studies math." >, Ms Snow, intro voice or played clip · topic: Further studies subjects · [68:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4136) > "But remember that math is not just a personal torture device. It also allows you to, gain skills in critical thinking and problem solving." >, Ms Snow, intro voice or played clip · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [69:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4196) > "And he's advocating to change the name of math literacy to business maths, because math literacy has gotten quite a raw deal." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [71:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4269) > "So it is a very valuable subject that is now recognized by the universities that does contribute towards your APS. You can't go into medicine on mathlet, but you can go into a whole lot more commerce degrees than ever before." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [72:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4338) > "For basically most of your subjects from grade ten to twelve, actually math literacy is what you need. For bio, you do, graph work, simple calculations that you do regularly on when you do math lit." >, Ms Mbulu, intro voice or played clip · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [73:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4419) > "Everyone chose a career, and I said, please calculate, imagine a salary, and then now calculate each other's taxes. And everyone had a ball calculating each other's taxes." >, Ms Mbulu, intro voice or played clip · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [74:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4478) > "When we start off this or introduce the subject in grade ten, we call it the Human Social Sciences subject, because it introduces the human aspect as well as the sciences aspect of the subject." >, Ms Mbulu, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [75:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4523) > "The, the algebra that you learn in grade ten, grade eleven, and grade twelve math is going to be directly relevant to help you with the, the physics especially," >, Mr Hall, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [77:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4631) > "In terms of careers, so I know that Wits has been considering adding physical sciences to its medicine requirements, just because of the critical thinking skills that comes with the added physical sciences," >, Mr Hall, intro voice or played clip · topic: University admission and APS · [77:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4653) > "there is the math requirement of getting a combined mark of 120 for English and math, and then above that you need to add your physical sciences mark to get a total of 180 to be considered to take physical sciences." >, Mr Hall, intro voice or played clip · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [79:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4740) > "to have core maths to take physics. That is an IEB requirement, and to prove the point, physics and maths literacy are written on the same day." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [80:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4823) > "what generally tends to, and we've done it before, what generally tends to happen in that space is the core math suffers because there's the perceived backdoor." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [81:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4911) > "don't start maths with, let's see how it goes. Should be, I'm going to do this, or I'm just going to take maths literacy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Maths versus maths literacy · [82:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=4939) > "Then you have to have six poets, multi, four poets, six poems for that question, and then you still have your own reading question, which is a minimum of four novels." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Further studies subjects · [83:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5022) > "the difference between business studies and economics is that eco focuses on what is happening globally, whereas business studies is about what is happening internally in your company." >, Miss Tolala, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [84:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5086) > "So a good, subject combination, is often economics, business studies, maths literacy, and history." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [86:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5164) > "And the answer is that when the IEB updates their curriculum, we'll consider it. But the last time we offered accounting, they were still teaching kids how to write checks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [87:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5231) > "It does affect your AP scores, and it does affect your applications to university, because it is compulsory to have those subjects for a lot of the universities." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: University admission and APS · [88:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5312) > "If it's maths, it's content heavy in practice. There is no easy option, that's why we offer the academic subjects." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [91:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5460) > "Synthesis of information and academic writing. What is synthesis of information? I am going to teach you how to use the information that you are learning in class to make sense of yourself and the world around you." >, Mr. Bacada, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [92:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5520) > "and also it kind of trains, trains the student to be both a critical and an independent thinker, making sense of the world around you critically." >, Mr. Bacada, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [93:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5587) > "You need to be able to link, because it's systems thinking, it's thinking about the tiny microscopic things all the way zooming out into the bigger thing, the population, the ecology, all of that, and back into the cells again." >, Miss Mohave, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [95:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5726) > "So you're not stuck with just the science field, you can mix it with psychology and go into genetic counseling," >, Miss Mohave, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [98:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5890) > "didn't do biology in high school. I did physics. Big mistake, because then when I started studying psychology, the whole of psych one was the" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Subject skills and careers · [98:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=5928) > "And there's, again, as I said, niche careers that you would never think of. So stuff like, land evaluation, right? And, urban planning." >, Ms Pretorius, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [101:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6091) > "Specifically, your ability to read a source and analyze it critically, your ability to break down and understand questions. For example, understanding the difference between explain, define, and describe in a question," >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [103:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6209) > "What I'm very grateful for is that we've got a lot of space within the IEB curriculum and the culture of the school where we can shift the curriculum based on the needs of the kids." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Subject skills and careers · [104:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6247) > "So fun fact, there is no life orientation final IEB exam. They write the CAT, which is a basically an SBA, the last SBA that they write," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Subject skills and careers · [104:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6285) > "If we get to the end of term one in grade ten and it's clearly a mistake, we can change it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Grade 9 subject choices · [107:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1614813_high.mp3?p=rss#t=6420) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Grade 9 nerves meet expert wisdom in a converstion that can help shape your future! Join Headmaster Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head, Jacqueline Aitchison, as they demystify how compulsory subjects like Life Orientation and English pave the way to dream careers. Ms. Pretorius breaks down pathways to top public unis, think Wits, UCT, and Stellenbosch. Then, Dr. Annie Van As, PhD powerhouse in inclusive education, reveals how coding, robotics, and 21st-century skills are revolutionizing early learning and teacher training. From stomach-wobbling decisions to purposeful transformation, this lively panel (with a provocative host ready to kick things along) equips parents and students with the insights to choose boldly. Your academic journey starts here, don’t miss it! Connect with Annie · Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Myth Busting IEB Accommodations with Dr. Claire Yorke - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-09-08-myth-busting-ieb-accommodations-with-dr/ - Date: 2025-09-08 (as at 2025-09-08) - Guest: Claire Yorke - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: IEB accommodations explained, Dyslexia and diagnosis, Types of exam accommodations, Access and fairness, Role of school and parents, Global accommodation trends - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1594965 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Claire Yorke - educational psychologist - Former teacher who worked mainly with younger children and did learning support work before becoming an educational psychologist; did her doctorate in accommodations in an IEB setting; has a longstanding relationship with Edu Inc. In their own words: > "I was a teacher for a, for a good few years and really enjoyed that. I worked predominantly with younger children, and then following main, main class teaching, I did, some remedial and some learning support." [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=18) > "So, to try and up my game, I did my doctorate in accommodations in an IEB setting and have really enjoyed working in that area." [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=66) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Gershom Aitchison of Edu Inc talks with educational psychologist Claire Yorke, who did her doctorate in accommodations in an IEB setting, about how exam accommodations work. They define terms, discuss dyslexia, dyscalculia and dysgraphia, walk through the IEB list of accommodations (extra time, computer, reader, scribe, prompter, rest breaks, separate venue, language and maths exemptions), and discuss the roles of school evidence and parent expectations. Claire stresses that accommodations give access rather than remove difficulty. Gershom compares accommodation rates across countries, and Claire closes with advice for parents and students. **Key ideas** - Claire argues accommodations are about access to the curriculum and exams, not a magic wand that removes all difficulty. ([11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=678) [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=687)) - Claire warns that dyslexia is sometimes identified early without response to intervention, and a full battery of assessments is sounder than a single screening. ([06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=371) [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=381) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=430)) - Gershom argues that labels can stop children building skills; Claire agrees some children opt out before reaching their reading plateau. ([08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=491) [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=495) [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=539)) - Claire says accommodations let a child work to their own potential, not to perform like a child with a different profile. ([12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=753) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=770)) - Extra time is the most common and most contentious accommodation, given in five, ten or fifteen minute increments. ([15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=942) [18:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1087) [18:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1127)) - Claire holds that an application never rests on the psycho-ed report alone; school evidence and history provide context. ([34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2069) [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2101) [37:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2253)) - Gershom notes South Africa's roughly ten percent accommodation rate is conservative compared with the US, UK and Australia; Claire says foreign ideas must fit South African context. ([38:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2319) [38:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2332) [39:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2375)) **Lessons** - Claire advises putting supportive interventions such as speech and OT therapy in place before seeking accommodations. ([41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2502) [41:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2509)) - Claire advises parents to keep therapy and medical reports as a paper trail supporting a later genuine need. ([42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2540)) - Claire says accommodations do not excuse students from preparing; they still need to put the hard yards in. ([43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2599) [43:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2618)) - Gershom tells students accommodations are a toolbox they must learn to use to get the most from them. ([42:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2558) [42:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2558)) - Claire notes children with poor spelling may restrict their writing to words they can spell, where a scribe could help. ([26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1619)) **Who it's for:** Parents of learners in IEB schools considering or holding exam accommodations, teachers and school leaders preparing applications, and psychologists interested in how assessments and school evidence combine in the South African context. **Facts stated in the episode** - Claire Yorke did her doctorate in accommodations in an IEB setting. ([01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=66)) - Extra time is given in increments of five, ten and fifteen minutes; a three-hour paper gets at most forty-five extra minutes. ([18:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1087) [18:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1127)) - Gershom cites accommodation rates of about ten percent in South Africa and fifteen percent in the United States. ([38:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2319)) - Gershom cites about twenty percent in the United Kingdom and twenty-five to twenty-seven percent in Australia. ([38:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2332)) - Claire says certain universities do accommodation assessments and school psychologists sometimes absorb the cost. ([39:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2399)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between accommodations and concessions in South African exams?** A: Claire says accommodations is the general term, while concessions is the newer name for what used to be called exemptions. ([01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=106)) **Q: Can only educational psychologists assess for exam accommodations?** A: No. Claire says counselling psychologists also assess and apply for accommodations, alongside educational psychologists. ([02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=176)) **Q: Should my child be diagnosed with dyslexia from one screening?** A: Claire argues a full battery of assessments is sounder than a single screening, noting some children are labelled early without a chance to respond to intervention. ([06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=371) [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=381) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=430)) **Q: How much extra time does the IEB give in exams?** A: Additional time is given in increments of five, ten or fifteen minutes per hour; on a three-hour paper that is at most forty-five extra minutes. ([18:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1087) [18:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1127)) **Q: Will my child get a computer for messy handwriting?** A: Claire says the first step is a handwriting sticker so the marker deciphers the writing; a computer is considered when that is not enough, for physical barriers, or when handwriting work rate is not functional. ([17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1075) [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1157) [20:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1201)) **Q: When is a child exempted from Afrikaans or maths?** A: Claire says language exemption is for significant disorders like severe dyslexia or traumatic brain injury, not because it is difficult; maths exemption is typically for severe dyscalculia despite huge supportive interventions. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1275) [23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1383)) **Q: Does a separate venue mean my child writes alone?** A: Claire says a separate venue is no longer guaranteed to be one child in a room; it may be a smaller venue. Gershom describes seating learners facing a wall in small groups. ([29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1760) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1760) [31:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1877)) **Q: Can a child fake results to get accommodations?** A: Claire says there are ways to detect manipulation, several boards have children sign they will not manipulate results, and assessments look at history and school context, not a single test. ([34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2069) [36:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2173)) **Q: How common are exam accommodations in South Africa compared with other countries?** A: Gershom says about ten percent in South Africa, about fifteen percent in the US, twenty percent in the UK and twenty-five to twenty-seven percent in Australia. ([38:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2319) [38:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2332)) ### Passage: Early dyslexia labels and the need for full assessment [06:11-08:10, 306 words] Note (AI): Claire explains why a single screening is insufficient for a dyslexia diagnosis and how response to intervention can change the picture. Claire Yorke, guest [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=371): > So I would take up on the dyslexia part, first of all, because that is what we're seeing as a psychologist assessing for accommodations. We're seeing more and more of that. I think sometimes if you track back, children are given an identification of dyslexia very early on, sometimes without chance for response to intervention. So when they're identified as dyslexic without having had the benefit of possibly speech therapy or remedial therapy, sometimes it's, it's given a higher profile than, than maybe it needs to, to be given for that child. And you see as they move along and, and they work through their supportive interventions, sometimes that, label of dyslexia is no longer as, as relevant. But, you know, obviously for children who are definitely dyslexic, we know that Dyslexia is for life. And for that reason, I think it would be, I think it would be sounder to look at a, a full battery of assessments and not rely on just a single screening to, to give that diagnosis, so that you can see the full, the full range and see where they are positioning on that level or at what risk ratio they are for dyslexia. So I think that's, that's something that's becoming, from my perspective, from my personal assessment, View is becoming more and more of a, of a factor that needs to be sometimes re-looked at, explained to parents that, as you say, whilst dyslexia is for life, if it isn't actually dyslexia, or is it a learning barrier, where do we, where do we position with that? And if you are looking at dyslexia, at what rate and at what level is that dyslexia? Is it severe or is it mild? And that big decision needs to be taken in cognizance of more than just a single screening. ### Passage: Labels, reading skills and the plateau [08:11-10:08, 337 words] Note (AI): Host and guest weigh whether a dyslexia label stops children building reading skills, and when a diagnosis is still needed. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=491): > You've touched on something which I feel quite strongly about, and so does Jax, and that is once we have the label, we stop building the skills because we've got an excuse not to do it. For example, reading. Kids with dyslexia say, I can't read. You can learn to read. It's a mechanical process. It's just very difficult, and it requires a lot of energy for you to do so. Just because you might get an accommodation of a reader during the exam as you go into the FET phase of your schooling, as an adult, you're still required To read. and yes, you can get a lot of, text-to-speech and, and vice versa, but it doesn't mean that you can't read. It just means it's a lot more difficult. And it's, it's quite, disheartening to see kids giving up on learning those skills because they are being told that they can't. Is, is, is any truth in that, in that thought process? Claire Yorke, guest [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=539): > I think a, a true dyslexic will maybe plateau in the level that they can read and the fluency with which they can read, but typically children sometimes stop, as you say, if given the label before the plateau has been reached. And that's, that's always the, a caution in saying dyslexic, therefore don't try anymore. Sure. So, you know, my, my take would be reading is a skill. and if you have mastered parts of it, if you are good at word reading or you may be good at the decoding, try and run with your strength and develop a, As far as you can, given that skills can sometimes be improved with good, good, practice and interventions. So yeah, I would go with you that sometimes children with the label of dyslexia, opt out earlier than necessary. But on the other side, there are some children that haven't been diagnosed as dyslexic and have really experienced huge difficulties that do need the clarification of where they are in the dyslexic rating. ### Passage: Extra time and computer accommodations [17:55-20:06, 350 words] Note (AI): Sets out how extra time is allocated and the order in which handwriting difficulties are accommodated, from sticker to computer. Gershom Aitchison, host [17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1075): > Then we've got additional time, which we have covered. It's given for a lot of accommodations. Claire Yorke, guest [18:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1081): > It is given for a lot of accommodations, and, as I mentioned, it is the most frequently given. Okay. It's also the most contentious because it can give a child an advantage, and that is not the purpose of accommodations. So typically with, with additional time, it's, it's given in increments of five, ten, and fifteen minutes with, a, a new look at being able to give more time for severe visual and, and hearing difficulties and some others which are itemized and, and listed by the department and also by the examination boards like the IEB and Sakai. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1122): > And that's generally five, ten, or fifteen minutes per hour for an exam paper. So if the child was writing a three-hour exam paper, they would get at most forty-five minutes, so they'd be able to write for three hours and forty-five minutes. Claire Yorke, guest [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1133): > That's right, Gershom, that's, that's how it's given. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1137): > braille examination papers I think is pretty self-explanatory. braille word processor, that's pretty self-explanatory for kids who are blind to be able to type. Then we've got computer concessions. Which in my mind is one of the biggest contentions. I think every teenager would love that, and I think they deliberately start writing untidily so that they can get a computer accommodation. Claire Yorke, guest [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1157): > For untidy handwriting, the first look at accommodations would be, do they need a handwriting sticker, whereby the marker is, going to take the time to decipher what they've, what they've written. Right. So that would be your first take for untidy writing. if it, if it is beyond what a handwriting sticker would Be able to accommodate and have in their scope, then you start looking at a computer. And you'd also look at a computer, sometimes for physical barriers, and you would also look at a computer where their work rate is just not functional when they're handwriting, but is functional when they are, typing or on the computer. So again, the computer isn't given to allow an unfair advantage. ### Passage: Separate venues versus smaller venues [29:20-31:58, 466 words] Note (AI): Shows how the separate venue accommodation works in practice, including resource constraints and how the school meets it. Claire Yorke, guest [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1760): > So a separate venue is, is no longer guaranteed to be just you in a room, just the child in a room. It's a separate venue or a smaller venue to be more realistic. So you have children that are working on portals that will be grouped together, all having the benefit of a reader via the portal. again, other children that, that typically need it are the ADHD candidates that feel they would work better with, with less distractions. and yeah, it's, it's separate venues, quite a contentious issue in schools, just from resource perspective in terms of physical resource, where do we put all these children and, human, yeah, human resource in terms of staffing all the separate venues. So I think the fact that it's been acknowledged that it may be a smaller venue and not a separate venue is, been well accepted. Gershom Aitchison, host [30:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1821): > Yeah, I think it's one of the things that is also being contentious for us. So computers and the separate venues and exemption from Afrikaans are the three biggest, bugbears because the kids want to use computers. It's easier for them. They want to be exempt from Afrikaans and a separate venue because it just feels nicer to be in your own little cocoon working. And obviously for kids that have readers or scribes or need to articulate that would distract other students, then we would find a separate venue. But as you say, it's very difficult to find the manpower. Also, the IEB requires a camera for us to be able to monitor the examination centers. And this is one of the things I spoke to the IEB, the IEB about, and that was, what is the intention behind it? And coming to the understanding that it was to take a, a child out of a 300 or 100 room, size room where kids are writing an exam, and you've got three invigilators walking up and down to a smaller space where they are less distracted. So we do have venues now that if a kid is needing to be Not be distracted that we put them facing a wall, that they're not seeing other, not physically seeing other learners, but there might be three or four or five learners in that one room where they're not seeing each other, but it, it fulfills that accommodation as well. Claire Yorke, guest [31:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1894): > For me, it's always trying to make it possible for the child within their own profile to work to potential. So that's why I think a smaller venue and the, the spin-offs that you are, are putting in for that in terms of placement in the room would work well. That would be my personal take, as long as the child is being able to work to their full, full potential. ### Passage: Managing parent expectations of accommodations [31:59-34:28, 406 words] Note (AI): Addresses parents who expect accommodations to ease the load, and how potential is judged beyond test scores. Gershom Aitchison, host [31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1919): > Claire, that's a great segue to have a conversation around some of the difficulties that we face within our professional opinion, and that is of a headmaster, an academic custodian, as it were, and an educational psychologist who is looking at a child's educational profile within that academic environment, and that of the parent's expectations, because the parent will always have very Very good expectations or should have good expectations of their child, but does it meet what is physically possible or mentally possible? And sometimes those expectations might be my child needs a bit of a free ride, and one of the questions I always have for guys doing the work that you are is how do you manage parents whose expectation is accommodations? You get a sense that this is about making my, my child's life easier, for example, or when you're giving the feedback on the reports and the child thinks this is a straight-A student and you're going, your child is a solid C student, and with the accommodations, that's the potential that we should be working towards. Claire Yorke, guest [32:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1978): > I think in terms of, of managing parents and, and their understanding, first of all, on the accommodation process, that is something that often requires discussion, and, possibly one of the things that repeatedly comes up is that we all want your child to work to, to full capacity. And the, the Numbers on the intellectual, on the intellectual score rate and on the academic score rates doesn't always mean the ceiling for them. We have lots of times where a child will exceed that. But again, to temper it with, is the child doing their best? Have they got good support? Is the parent supportive, or are they actually being detrimental to the child's reaching their potential? So I think that would be my starting point, is to, to see it as a whole and not to see it, the accommodation all hanging on the results. From a psychologist, but to, to make it clear that it's looked at in a, in a wider viewpoint than just that. So how the child is performing at school, are they, are they reaching their potential there? what is the work ethic like? Are Gershom Aitchison, host [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2056): > they, are they motivated? Are they disciplined? Exactly. Claire Yorke, guest [34:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2058): > What's the work ethic like? What are your teacher comments like? not just trying to squeeze it all into just one psycho-ed test battery. ### Passage: School evidence and guarding against manipulation [34:29-37:38, 518 words] Note (AI): Explains that applications combine the psychologist's report with school evidence, and how assessments check for children underplaying ability. Gershom Aitchison, host [34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2069): > What do you see the school's role in this process? A lot of parents believe that once the, the psycho-ed has done the assessment, that those accommodations will happen, and that's in place. And a lot of the conversation I have to have with them is that's half the report. The other half of the application is evidence from the school, the teachers that are working, that needs to be endorsed by the schools, because we are working with the child all the time. What is your view on the school's role in this process? Claire Yorke, guest [34:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2098): > Well, I've asked, as it is fundamental, it's never, it's never just the profile that's generated by the psychologist in the psycho-ed. It's always looked at in a broader context, and that is predominantly the school for a learner. So quite rightly so, the teacher should have input. the reports will guide, as will previous reports. Is this a trend that has been, trend of performance that's been around for several years, or is it just a flash in the pan, bad mark? so absolutely, it's looked at, at more than just being done and dusted once you've had the psycho-ed report done. Gershom Aitchison, host [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2141): > How do you manage in your assessments, if it is clear that a child is dumbing it down, trying to underplay their ability, does that ever happen, or is there, or are there checks and balances in place within those assessments that you can You can see, is the process fallible or infallible? That's basically what I'm asking. Claire Yorke, guest [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2160): > I think you always have to be aware of, of weaknesses in a, in an assessment area, but there definitely are ways to, to help determine if a child is manipulating. And for that reason, you'll see several examination boards Getting a child to sign that they will not manipulate the results to try and gain the accommodation that they feel they want. So that is, that is done in terms of the child taking responsibility for working honestly. also parents maybe underestimate the child's ability to read where they need to be manipulating if they want to get the outcome that they, that they desire. It's more than just writing, a spelling test. You look at it in a, in a greater context. You look at what the spelling's like. Previously, you look at it in terms of a history as well. So using that simple example, I think sometimes they, they're not aware of the complexity of, of an assessment battery and the fact that it is not just always hinged on a single solitary test. Gershom Aitchison, host [37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2233): > And I think what you've just touched on within a context, and I think The school plays the role of context as well, because you will see a child typically for a day or two while you're doing the assessment. The teachers are seeing the child for six, seven hours a day. Claire Yorke, guest [37:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2246): > Absolutely. And Gershom Aitchison, host [37:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2247): > understand the context within which the kid operates and what their potential might be based on that. Claire Yorke, guest [37:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2253): > Absolutely. That's why it can never hang simply on a, a psychoed result. ### Passage: Advice to parents and students starting out [41:42-43:49, 358 words] Note (AI): Practical guidance: interventions first, keep a paper trail, use accommodations as tools, and keep working hard. Claire Yorke, guest [41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2502): > Well, I think often the process starts in the primary schools, and there, in terms of accommodations, I would swing to the side of putting supportive interventions beyond accommodations in place, first of all, so that the parents understand that not every barrier to learning can just be dispelled with an accommodation. That often that, you need your therapies, your speech therapies, your OT therapies to precede that. And then in terms of being ready for should you need an accommodation that would be formally granted slightly later, then you need your paper trail. So any accommoda- any therapies that you've had, you would keep your reports. You would keep your documentation, should it be medical, so that you have that background history to support the need, the genuine need for an accommodation later on. Gershom Aitchison, host [42:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2558): > We always say to the students, what we're giving you is a toolbox. It's important that you learn to use the tools in those toolboxes so that you can get the most out of them, and that often it is at their discretion when and how they would like to use those accommodations. We have students who do not use a scribe for mathematics, they find it too difficult. even if they've got a reader and a scribe available to them in Afrikaans, because they can't speak as well and pronounce as well, they find it easier for them to do their own Afrikaans and use their extra time. And I think that's important. Is there any advice to the students when it comes to accommodations and how they can maximize the use of it and the benefit of it once it's been given to them? Claire Yorke, guest [43:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2597): > I would emphasize that Accommodations aren't always the fix-all, so they would be assisting them, but that doesn't preclude the student from needing to put the hard yards in. So they would still need to prepare for exams, they would still need to be ready for their daily lessons to get the most out of it. It's not, it's not a cop-out for good learning procedures that would go before the accommodations or along with the accommodation. ### Quotes > "But, you know, obviously for children who are definitely dyslexic, we know that Dyslexia is for life." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=418) > "they don't, they're not a magic wand. They don't dispel all difficulty, and I think that's something that's not fully understood." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=678) > "It's rather to allow you to work to your potential, not taking in mind other children's potential." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=770) > "people often, are clumb, asking fishes to climb trees, and they can't do that, so." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=808) > "So again, the computer isn't given to allow an unfair advantage." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [20:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1201) > "That's why it can never hang simply on a, a psychoed result." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [37:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2253) > "We always say to the students, what we're giving you is a toolbox." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [42:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2558) > "It's not, it's not a cop-out for good learning procedures that would go before the accommodations or along with the accommodation." >, Claire Yorke, guest · [43:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2618) ### Claims > "I was a teacher for a, for a good few years and really enjoyed that. I worked predominantly with younger children, and then following main, main class teaching, I did, some remedial and some learning support." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=18) > "So, to try and up my game, I did my doctorate in accommodations in an IEB setting and have really enjoyed working in that area." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=66) > "So accommodations is your general term, and concessions ex, pertains, well, that pertains to the exemptions." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: IEB accommodations explained · [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=106) > "So counseling psychologists definitely assess, and they are doing accommodations as well as, as, educational psychologists." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: IEB accommodations explained · [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=176) > "So typically in a school, you think of them as your learning disorders, whereas you can also include your, your physical barriers to learning that are not maybe as often thought of." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Barriers to learning · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=226) > "I think sometimes if you track back, children are given an identification of dyslexia very early on, sometimes without chance for response to intervention." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyslexia and diagnosis · [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=381) > "I think it would be sounder to look at a, a full battery of assessments and not rely on just a single screening to, to give that diagnosis," >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyslexia and diagnosis · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=430) > "once we have the label, we stop building the skills because we've got an excuse not to do it. For example, reading. Kids with dyslexia say, I can't read. You can learn to read. It's a mechanical process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Dyslexia and diagnosis · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=495) > "I think a, a true dyslexic will maybe plateau in the level that they can read and the fluency with which they can read, but typically children sometimes stop, as you say, if given the label before the plateau has been reached." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyslexia and diagnosis · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=539) > "With accommodation, a poor reader should be able to access the curriculum and should be able to access the exam, and that's, I think, the crux of it. And they're often termed access arrangements in other countries." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Access and fairness · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=687) > "I'll say to them, I'm asking for accommodations on this, not because I think you're stupid. You're not. You are in a, in a mainstream school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Access and fairness · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=719) > "So it doesn't mean that by giving an accommodation, you're going to be able to perform at the same level as a child with a totally different profile." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Access and fairness · [12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=753) > "Well, my take on dyscalculia is that it's Profound difficulties with maths that don't go away despite good teaching, diligent approach, learning support." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyscalculia and dysgraphia · [13:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=834) > "And again, in South Africa, we have the maths literacy as a bit of a lifeline for maths, and that catches some of the children that would possibly be termed mildly dyscalculic." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyscalculia and dysgraphia · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=856) > "Time is a, is a huge, factor in accommodations, and it is the, the one accommodation that is most commonly given when you look at, at research." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=942) > "It's also the most contentious because it can give a child an advantage, and that is not the purpose of accommodations. So typically with, with additional time, it's, it's given in increments of five, ten, and fifteen minutes" >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [18:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1087) > "So if the child was writing a three-hour exam paper, they would get at most forty-five minutes, so they'd be able to write for three hours and forty-five minutes." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [18:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1127) > "For untidy handwriting, the first look at accommodations would be, do they need a handwriting sticker, whereby the marker is, going to take the time to decipher what they've, what they've written." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1157) > "They're starting to use the dash as an assessment tool, which gives you a standard score for that, and that's, that's also helpful." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Assessment process · [20:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1227) > "I think they often see getting an exemption from Afrikaans or concession from Afrikaans, as it's now termed, as a way out of taking that language." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1275) > "maths exemption is given when there is a severe case of dyscalculia typically, and despite huge supportive interventions, the child has just not been able to grasp the fundamentals of maths," >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Dyscalculia and dysgraphia · [23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1383) > "Well, I think you've touched on the importance of working memory, and that would be the visual and the auditory. That does definitely impact learning across the board." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Barriers to learning · [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1424) > "The prompter is, is typically used by children with attention difficulties, and that is having somebody that will refocus them." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [25:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1530) > "children with poor spelling sometimes dumb down what they write because they restrict their written content to words that they can spell. And so in that case, a scribe would possibly be a better accommodation." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1619) > "So rest breaks, are, are, are commonly asked for by children that are experiencing high levels of anxiety. So they feel that they need to step away from their desk, have the clock stopped in order for them to regain composure and then get back to it." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1682) > "So a separate venue is, is no longer guaranteed to be just you in a room, just the child in a room. It's a separate venue or a smaller venue to be more realistic." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1760) > "So we do have venues now that if a kid is needing to be Not be distracted that we put them facing a wall, that they're not seeing other, not physically seeing other learners," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Types of exam accommodations · [31:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1877) > "And the, the Numbers on the intellectual, on the intellectual score rate and on the academic score rates doesn't always mean the ceiling for them. We have lots of times where a child will exceed that." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Role of school and parents · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=1999) > "it's never, it's never just the profile that's generated by the psychologist in the psycho-ed. It's always looked at in a broader context, and that is predominantly the school for a learner." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Role of school and parents · [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2101) > "you'll see several examination boards Getting a child to sign that they will not manipulate the results to try and gain the accommodation that they feel they want." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Assessment process · [36:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2173) > "But within South Africa, we're sitting at about ten percent, and just looking globally at, the United States, which has a lot of data around accommodations, they're sitting at about fifteen percent." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global accommodation trends · [38:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2319) > "The United Kingdom is sitting at, about twenty percent. Australia is the highest at twenty-five to twenty-seven percent of their kids with accommodations," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global accommodation trends · [38:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2332) > "So it's never a case of just importing ideas straight and implementing them. It always has to be looked at against our, our context." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Global accommodation trends · [39:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2375) > "Certain universities are doing accommodation assessments to assist children. You're also having school psychologists stepping in and taking the cost away because it's Absorbed." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Global accommodation trends · [39:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2399) > "Yes, I think, I think we are far more aware of autism and the, the, the sliding scales of it." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Global accommodation trends · [40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2454) > "I would swing to the side of putting supportive interventions beyond accommodations in place, first of all, so that the parents understand that not every barrier to learning can just be dispelled with an accommodation." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Role of school and parents · [41:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2509) > "So any accommoda- any therapies that you've had, you would keep your reports. You would keep your documentation, should it be medical, so that you have that background history to support the need, the genuine need for an accommodation later on." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Role of school and parents · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2540) > "We always say to the students, what we're giving you is a toolbox. It's important that you learn to use the tools in those toolboxes so that you can get the most out of them," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Access and fairness · [42:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2558) > "Accommodations aren't always the fix-all, so they would be assisting them, but that doesn't preclude the student from needing to put the hard yards in." >, Claire Yorke, guest · topic: Access and fairness · [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1594965_high.mp3#t=2599) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) This podcast is an in-depth and fascinating conversation with educational psychologist Dr. Claire Yorke on accommodations within the IEB (Independent Examinations Board). We delve into what accommodations are available, what they are used for, and how they are applied to help learners achieve their best academic potential. Claire Yorke has a longstanding relationship with Edu Inc (Education Incorporated) and has helped many of our students with the assessments and applications for accommodations. We value her professionalism, and we thought it would be great for her to share her insights and understanding of this sometimes daunting process. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Smoke Screen: The DEADLY Truth Behind Teen Vaping | Dr. Alicia Porter - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-07-22-smoke-screen-the-deadly-truth-behind/ - Date: 2025-07-22 (as at 2025-07-22) - Guest: Alicia Porter - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Normalisation of teen vaping, Harmful vape ingredients, Adolescent brain development, Regulation and policy, Anxiety and coping skills, Parenting and boundaries, South African vaping statistics, Marijuana and mental health - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1578803 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Alicia Porter - Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist · ADDNOVA · Blairgowrie, Johannesburg - Secretary of the Board of Directors of the South African Society of Psychiatrists; honorary lectureship in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of the Witwatersrand; previously Clinical Head of the Child and Family Unit at Charlotte Maxeke Johannesburg Academic Hospital. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A fireside chat hosted by Edu Inc on teen vaping with child and adolescent psychiatrist Dr. Alicia Porter. Porter argues that vaping has been normalised and marketed as a safer alternative. She says vapes contain harmful chemicals beyond nicotine and that nicotine permanently alters the developing brain and primes it for addiction. She describes vaping as a symptom of teen anxiety and a maladaptive coping skill. The host brings South African study figures, and audience members raise lessons from cigarettes, marijuana in vapes and physical effects. Porter calls for policy, collaboration across sectors, open conversations and consistent parental boundaries. **Key ideas** - Porter argues vaping has been normalised through flavours, colours and marketing, drawing silence where an orangutan given a vape drew outrage. ([02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=137) [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=178) [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1893)) - Porter says vapes contain around twenty other harmful chemicals besides nicotine, so neither nicotine nor non-nicotine vapes are safer. ([03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=239) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=283) [17:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1036)) - Porter holds that nicotine permanently alters neural pathways in a brain still developing until 25, affecting attention and impulse control and priming it for addiction. ([08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=517) [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=570) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=606) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=655) [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=696)) - Porter frames vaping as a symptom of underlying anxiety and a maladaptive coping skill, in a two-way relationship with anxiety and depression. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=835) [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=861) [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=871) [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1236) [20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1237)) - Porter says parents in an uncharted digital age have become permissive, partly from FOMO, while the host describes parents buying vapes for teens. ([12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=722) [21:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1278) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1308) [31:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1865)) - Porter calls for vaping policy like that for cigarettes, and for collaboration across health, social development and education, noting that current efforts are siloed and economics interferes. ([06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=386) [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1450) [25:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1538) [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2115)) - Porter says marijuana in vapes can accelerate a psychotic episode in those with a genetic vulnerability. ([40:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2405) [40:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2428)) **Lessons** - Porter advises looking beyond the vape in a teen's hand to the anxiety or struggle underneath, which can present as behaviour, outbursts or physical complaints. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=835) [22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1347) [44:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2699)) - Porter says parents' job is to hold the boundary consistently and tolerate the discomfort of their teen's pushback. ([45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2751) [46:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2769) [46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2776)) - Porter rejects the myth that talking about vaping encourages it, arguing that knowledge is power. ([44:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2665) [44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2678)) - For teens, Porter suggests deciding in advance and asking what their 40-year-old self would say about their choices. ([47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2828) [48:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2893)) - The host passes on the tip to watch for pupils frequently missing class with asthma or respiratory infections. ([38:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2311)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers, school leaders and educators handling vaping under a code of conduct and pastoral care, and teenagers themselves. Also relevant to health professionals and policy makers interested in South African teen vaping. **Facts stated in the episode** - The host cites a UCT study covering 25,000 learners across 52 fee-paying public schools. ([15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=931)) - According to the host, 38 percent of vaping learners in that study said they vaped every day. ([16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=990)) - The host says almost fifty percent of the vaping learners reported vaping within the first hour of waking. ([16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1001)) - The host says one reformulated Juul capsule was the equivalent of a pack of cigarettes. ([07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=468)) - Porter says vapes contain about twenty other chemicals besides nicotine. ([03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=239)) - Porter states that the brain develops until the age of 25. ([09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=570)) - Porter says less than 19% of people stop smoking through vaping, and it is not FDA-approved for cessation. ([49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2962)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is vaping safer than smoking for teenagers?** A: Porter says popularity does not mean safety. Vapes may have less nicotine but contain about twenty other harmful chemicals, and the aerosol is not just vapour. She says the harm may be as much as, if not more than, tobacco. ([03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=239) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=283) [17:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1036) [29:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1792)) **Q: Are non-nicotine vapes harmless?** A: Porter says neither type is safer, because the flavourants in non-nicotine vapes contain chemicals as problematic as nicotine, if not more so. ([17:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1036)) **Q: How does nicotine affect a teenager's brain?** A: According to Porter, the brain develops until 25. Nicotine impacts impulse control, attention, concentration, mood and anxiety, and it primes the brain for addiction. She describes the altered neural pathways as permanent and 'glitchy'. ([09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=570) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=606) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=655) [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=696)) **Q: Why do teens vape, and is it linked to anxiety?** A: Porter says the relationship runs both ways. People who vape are more anxious, and anxious or depressed teens are more likely to vape as a coping mechanism. She calls vaping a maladaptive coping skill and a symptom of a bigger problem. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=835) [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=861) [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=871) [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1236)) **Q: Should I buy my teenager a vape if their friends pressure them?** A: Porter suggests addressing the pressure rather than giving a vape. She says parents should hold the boundary consistently and tolerate the pushback, because boundaries keep kids safe. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=835) [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2751) [46:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2769) [46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2776)) **Q: How common is vaping among South African school learners?** A: The host cites a UCT study of 25,000 learners across 52 fee-paying public schools. Of the users it found, 38 percent vaped daily and almost half vaped within the first hour of waking. It found no real link to affluence. ([15:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=903) [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=931) [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=990) [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1001)) **Q: Does vaping help people quit smoking?** A: Porter says less than 19% of people stop smoking that way, and vaping is not an FDA-approved method for smoking cessation, unlike options such as the nicotine patch. ([49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2962)) **Q: Is vaping marijuana worse for mental health?** A: Porter says marijuana can accelerate the onset of a psychotic episode in those with a genetic vulnerability. She tells kids with a family history not to take it. ([40:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2405) [40:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2428)) **Q: What should schools do about vaping?** A: Porter calls for policy, processes and protocols in schools, awareness with parents, open conversations, and looking beyond the vape to deeper struggles. The host adds that pupils frequently missing class with respiratory problems may be vaping. ([24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1450) [25:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1538) [38:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2311) [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2642) [44:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2665)) ### Passage: How nicotine rewires the developing adolescent brain [08:37-12:01, 500 words] Note (AI): Porter explains unregulated marketing, nicotine's effect on attention and impulse control, addiction priming and why she calls the changes permanent. Alicia Porter, guest [08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=517): > Yes, and because it's not regulated, they're not answering, to anything because it's just a vape, and it's so much safer. So they're not being subjected to the same rigorous rules, even around advertising. I mean, we don't... Previously, in... When I was young, I remember on TV you had cigarette adverts. You don't have those anymore because it's regulated. Whereas with vaping, you know, you go onto social media, on TikTok, the influencers, it really is just rampant, and I don't think that we are appreciating the dangers, involved and the fact that we don't know, because from one vape to another, you don't know how Much of one you're getting and another. And the problem with nicotine is that it is very addictive, but it's very problematic for the developing brain. The brain develops by the age of 25, and so adding nicotine to that development is problematic because it does impact in terms of impulse control, attention and concentration, and even things like mood and anxiety. It affects all of these processes, but it also primes the brain for addiction. And so there's the thought that, you know, it's a way to stop or a way to prevent. It's actually a gateway. To much bigger problems with addiction later on in life because you're now priming this developing brain, which is very problematic and has long-term consequences that are, that far exceed, you know, what's currently happening. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=625): > I've heard that a few times now, and I've read that a few times now, that, you know, the words you used there, the long, the long-lasting changes. when they speak about specifically the teenage brain and the fact that that prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until mid-twenties, and they speak about exactly what you said, the learning issues, the memory issues, the attention problems, impulse control issues, anxiety, aggression, all of these things. When you say long-lasting changes in brain development, are these permanent changes? Alicia Porter, guest [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=655): > They are permanent changes because it's, it's kind of like you having, you know, when your brain is developing, you're laying down neural pathways. But you add the nicotine, and the pathway is not the same. It's glitchy. and so that's what's being laid down. So it's like this rerouting of your neural, your neural pathway, and that's permanent because it's being laid down. So that's the track that you're laying, and it's not the same because you've got the added effect of this nicotine. And oftentimes, you know, kids and parents, I mean, I don't think we appreciate the actual effect of that, but if you took a brain that hasn't been exposed to nicotine, and you took a brain that has been exposed, to nicotine, and you do like a PET scan or one of these, isotope scans, there is a stark difference. And you can see the brain that's been exposed and the brain that hasn't been. The colors are different on the brain. You know, they light up differently. ### Passage: A parent buys a vape: adolescence and anxiety [12:02-14:41, 401 words] Note (AI): Links a real parenting scenario to Porter's view that adult problems begin in adolescence and that vaping and anxiety feed each other. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=722): > Can't get out of my mind the amount of times I've seen posts on places like I love Fourways, where you've got a parent coming onto the post saying, my child's under so much pressure from his friends, he's fourteen, so I've just bought him a vape. And I feel like if we are not educating sufficiently about what you've just said, about the permanent impact on a brain, that parent has just given the child an addiction issue for the rest of their lives. Yes. I mean, Is that what we're saying? Alicia Porter, guest [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=757): > Yes, because it, it, it's not gonna start in adulthood, or most adult problems start average age of fourteen anyway. So our adult problems don't start in adulthood, they actually started during adolescence, and so it's so important what we do during adolescence, because it has long-term consequences. So, you know, even just in terms of, as I say, your attention, concentration, learning, impulsivity, the addictive nature, you're setting yourself or putting this kid at risk for mental health issues, physical health issues later on, in life. And also, you know, I sometimes get quite dramatic and say, you know, ultimately they become less functional, failure to launch, we're gonna contribute because it's gonna actually impact our GDP, and so this is not just a child problem, it's a... It's a societal issue. It's a societal issue because you're going to have non-functioning adults, and it doesn't just start in adulthood. And sometimes people only get help in adulthood, but if you go all the way back, it started when the tracks were being, when the tracks were being laid. Sure. Back to the story in terms of, you know, my child is under pressure, so I gave them a vape. You know, my question would be, maybe we need to actually address the pressure because children or people who vape are more anxious, they are more subject to, anxiety, depression, and even with kids like suicidality. And so, and anxious kids, so it's by di-, you know, it goes in both directions because anxious, you know, kids where there is underlying anxiety, depression, are then more likely to vape as a coping mechanism. and so for me, it's about Yes, there's the vape, but I think it's a symptom of a much bigger problem that we, that we currently facing, particularly with teen, you know, with teenagers. ### Passage: South African school vaping study figures [15:03-18:14, 516 words] Note (AI): Local data on prevalence, daily use and nicotine vapes, with Porter's reading of what the numbers say about teen mental health. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=903): > Going back to that study that I mentioned, Professor van Salmit at UCT, it was, it was so refreshing to hear the stats that we were getting out of that because, you know, South Africans, we, we get the, the European stats and we get the American stats and the British stats, but we very seldom get stats about what's happening in South Africa. and I found it fascinating to see how his results are correlating pretty much with the rest of the world. You know, they did a... The study was 25,000 learners across 52 fee, fee-paying schools, public schools. He mentioned that there was no real link between the affluence of the demographic, which I found quite interesting, because perhaps because of our environment, we tend to assume that our kids have easier access because they have, you know, the, the financial wherewithal is easier for them, which doesn't seem to be playing out in the research. He was talking about Seventeen percent of those kids admitting to using vapes on a daily basis. And I thought, well, seventeen percent admitting is not probably the, the most accurate number. But it's still a scary... But it's terrifying. I did the math on that. That's four thousand two hundred and fifty children across fifty-two schools who admitted, who admitted to using a vape. Usually you need Alicia Porter, guest [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=982): > to add about another twenty-five, thirty percent onto that. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=985): > Exactly. That when it comes to... So that was significant right there. Then he said, of that percentage, thirty-eight percent had, vote, they said they vaped every single day, which then in my mind is indicating a dependency on the vape. They asked very interesting questions, like how long between waking up and vaping. And almost fifty percent of them were saying within the first hour. And again, that's speaking to addiction, isn't it? That you can't really get going with your day unless you started taking the nicotine in. So many of them not able to get through a school day. They can't sit for six or seven hours without their nicotine. And then eighty-eight percent said that they used nicotine vapes as opposed to non-nicotine vapes. But is there really a big distinction between the nicotine and the non-nicotine vapes? Alicia Porter, guest [17:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1036): > They make the distinction between nicotine and non-nicotine, but the point for me is that neither of them is safer because the non-nicotine vapes have all of these, you know, the flavorants and all of that have these chemicals that are as problematic, if not more so than, you know, than the nicotine. But reading through, Prof and Zale's stats, for me as a mental health professional, it actually speaks to the problem with regards to mental health that we have with particularly teenagers. There's been a significant increase, and I wonder beyond the addiction, whether that's not speaking to the increased levels of anxiety, the increased levels of depression, and even substance, you know, substance usage. And so it is an alarming Statistic, but I think it speaks to a much bigger, issue than just the vaping. ### Passage: Vaping as maladaptive coping in uncharted parenting [19:32-22:43, 475 words] Note (AI): Porter's fullest account of why vaping differs from cigarettes, the need for coping skills, parental permissiveness and how teen anxiety presents. Alicia Porter, guest [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1172): > it's quite different with, with the vape, you know, with the vaping in the sense that, you know, with cigarettes, everybody knew it was wrong. And so parents were, it's wrong and you shouldn't do it and all the rest of it. And even though we knew that we, you know, that people knew that you shouldn't do it, you did it anyway. But it came from a point of, we knew that it was not okay. Whereas with vaping, I feel like it's More of a problem by the fact that we're normalizing something that could be very harmful, and so it adds an additional layer because it's not just having to raise awareness and educate around the harmfulness of vaping, because it's perceived as harmless, so that makes it even more problematic. But I also think it's about then speaking to what is underlying, what is this a symptom of, and how do we then begin to give coping skills? because for me, vaping is a maladaptive coping skill. You are needing to cope. So we need to be thinking around alternatives in terms of how do we teach kids coping skills? How do we teach parents coping skills? because I really think there's an interplay, and the difficulty is that the, you know, parents are struggling at the moment. they're struggling, you know, and I think the reality is we are in uncharted territory. The rules have changed significantly. We don't have a playbook anymore. We can't call anybody. you know, I can't call my mother and ask her about parenting in the digital age because she's had no experience in that. So we are in this uncharted territory, and now we are having to make up the rules as we go. But vaping arrived, the digital space arrived, and we've been left wanting. And so in that kind of anxiety about it, I Think we've become quite permissive, you know, like we were chatting earlier. There's a permissiveness because there's this idea, you know, FOMO is a real thing, even with parenting, you know, fear that my kid, I don't want them to miss out and, you know, so there's this encouraging of peer pressure where previously we'd maybe speak directly to it or recognize it. Everybody wants, you know, nobody wants to be, to be left out, but we're not really thinking about, you know, this, the actual thing that we are promoting, but what is underlying is more important. Do we need to address the anxiety? And the difficulty, particularly with, you know, adolescents, is that anxiety looks so different. You know, it looks like behavior, it looks like outbursts and tantrums and, you know, not wanting to go to school and tummy aches and headaches, you know, so it looks so different, so it can easily be missed. ### Passage: Lessons from cigarettes for vaping policy [24:10-27:20, 513 words] Note (AI): An audience question draws Porter's case for policy, school protocols, warning labels and parent awareness modelled on tobacco control. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1450): > What have we learned from cigarettes? you know, we, cigarettes came out and nobody was against it. There were a lot of health practitioners that signed off saying that cigarettes weren't harmful and then turned out they were lying and that it actually is. And we, we've gone through that whole experience and we've got, programs to wean somebody off of smoking. So those programs exist and they've been developing for many years now and there must be some success with it. How much of that are we doing for vaping? Is it just because we don't know whether it's Reasonable to wear them off because we don't know whether it's unsafe or un- or safe or unsafe. Is that the reason why we're not implementing those programs on a massive, more massive scale in the same way that we do with cigarettes? So what have we learned from cigarettes? Or do we, is that just one anomaly that we don't, we can't draw enough data from to change what we're doing today? Or can we actually do that, and to what extent are we doing that? Alicia Porter, guest [25:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1511): > So I think that we can learn lots of lessons from, from cigarettes, but I think that the vaping came very subtly, and it was dressed in very bright colors, and it looked Like it was a safer alternative. So it really came quite disguised, whereas with cigarettes, there was, you know, at the beginning, this open debate about it, and they had to, you know, kind of prove or not. Whereas this came in as a wolf in sheep's clothing, really. But I think, actually, we should be going that way, where we should be looking around policy in terms of, so we need actual policy around vaping like we have with cigarettes. We need to be looking at, even in a school environment, our processes and protocols, and again, policy in that way. But we should be creating awareness with parents, because that's the difference, you know. Back then, our parents were not encouraging us to smoke or condoning smoking or saying it's okay, whereas here, you know, it's the campaigns and the marketing around, vaping. Is very gen, you know, gen X and very sassy and, you know, it's TikTok and the influencers and so they basically have taken the marketing to the market who are the teens, who actually are not at a place that they can distinguish, but then they've also hooked the parents in that it's the lesser of the evil. So actually if my kid vapes, that's okay. But I really think we can actually take a lesson from the cigarette playbook and enforce it where there should be big stickers that says this can cause or no vaping for and, you know, we, we need to be going in that way. But it kind of came with the boom and I think COVID didn't help either because I think it was very smart even the way the marketing arrived and the fact that it's unregulated is very problematic. ### Passage: Advice for educators and parents on boundaries [44:02-46:45, 452 words] Note (AI): Practical guidance: talk openly, look beyond the vape to underlying struggle, and hold consistent boundaries despite pushback. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2642): > What advice would you have for us as the educators, the people who are involved with the teens every single day, what should we be looking out for? And what steps should we be taking so that we can manage not just the, the code of conduct point of view, but the pastoral point of view as well? We need to start Alicia Porter, guest [44:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2663): > having the conversations. And, you know, there is also a myth, you know, parents say, oh, if I talk about it, it's going to make my kid want to do it if I talk about it. Therefore, let's not talk about it. So, like, then we won't have to, to deal with it. But I think talking, because I really think that knowledge is power, and so it's about creating that awareness. And then also just looking deeper than the vape in the hand to the deeper issues that may be, at play in terms of this maybe a kid who is struggling. And it is often hard, not so much for educators, but it's hard for parents to often accept that my child is struggling because it looks so different, because your child can be struggling and they'll still go out with friends. And I often hear that, yeah, but that Okay, and they guard with friends, so they can't be depressed. One and one doesn't equal, so because kids socializing how they present to the outside world is important because where they are developmentally. So it's about having these hard, conversations and creating the awareness, particularly with parents and, you know, in, in the education, space. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [45:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2736): > And what advice do you have for the parents who have the fourteen-year-olds who are pressuring them and saying, but all my friends have a vape, and if I go to parties, there's vapes, so I really need to have my own vape. What do you say to them? So, you know, I say that our job Alicia Porter, guest [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2751): > as parents is to put the boundary. Your fourteen-year-old's job is to push the boundary and to keep pushing the boundary, and even sometimes they burn the boundary, but your job is to hold the boundary, and consistency is key. And yes, they may not like it because nobody likes a boundary, but boundaries keep our kids safe. But a lot of the time, or the lot of the work that we do with parents is getting parents to tolerate the discomfort of having to hold that, that boundary, because you're going to get you the worst mom, I hate you, I this, and it's not personal, it's an attack on, on that, on that boundary. And so boundaries and consistency, connection are key for, ### Quotes > "So our adult problems don't start in adulthood, they actually started during adolescence," >, Alicia Porter, guest · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=765) > "It's a societal issue because you're going to have non-functioning adults," >, Alicia Porter, guest · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=812) > "for me, vaping is a maladaptive coping skill. You are needing to cope." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1237) > "But as a good friend always says, hope is not a strategy." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1414) > "Whereas this came in as a wolf in sheep's clothing, really." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [25:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1538) > "And because it's socially acceptable doesn't mean it's safe, doesn't equal safety." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [29:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1792) > "And remember, with the adolescent brain, it responds to colors and flavors and, you know, so it's, it's poison wrapped in candy." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1893) > "because I really think that knowledge is power, and so it's about creating that awareness." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2678) > "And yes, they may not like it because nobody likes a boundary, but boundaries keep our kids safe." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [46:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2769) > "Because it's not an exit, it's a gateway." >, Alicia Porter, guest · [47:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2869) ### Claims > "I think it's been normalized, and it's been sort of marketed as acceptable, and I think because it's got, like, fancy flavors, very exciting colors, so it really, I think, has been very much normalized," >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Normalisation of teen vaping · [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=137) > "there's an outcry when an orangutan takes a vape. But there's silence when our kids are vaping, on a daily basis, and it really has become like, you know, we were chatting earlier, it has become an epidemic." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Normalisation of teen vaping · [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=178) > "yes, you've got the nicotine. Which is maybe to a lesser concentration than in cigarettes, but it's not just about the nicotine. There's probably about twenty other chemicals that they use within the vape, which is also then problematic because these chemicals are quite harmful." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Harmful vape ingredients · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=239) > "And also the aerosol doesn't mean that it's okay because it's not just vapor. There's also harmful stuff contained in there. So I'm not so sure that it is as a safer alternative or that it's less harmful." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Harmful vape ingredients · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=283) > "They're saying that the mix of flavor and the, the additives, the aromatic additives, the nicotine, this is, and all these other bits and pieces, they're all dissolved in an oily liquid. And as you're saying, it's the aerosolization of that oily liquid that gets really deep into the lungs," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Harmful vape ingredients · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=335) > "with cigarettes, there's regulations, you know, on cigarette boxes, they say cigarettes cause cancer, you can't, you know, they won't sell cigarettes to under eighteens. That is not so with, with vapes. Most vape shops are near campuses, and there's no laws that regulate the age or, so it's unregulated." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Regulation and policy · [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=386) > "And when it didn't go quite as planned initially, They reformulated the little capsules that you would put into the vape, that one little capsule was the equivalent of a pack of cigarettes." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Vape industry marketing · [07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=468) > "he was also saying that these companies have gone as far as to change the chemical makeup of nicotine specifically to make it more addictive, as if our kids needed more nicotine, but that's what they've done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Vape industry marketing · [08:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=500) > "The brain develops by the age of 25, and so adding nicotine to that development is problematic because it does impact in terms of impulse control, attention and concentration, and even things like mood and anxiety. It affects all of these processes, but it also primes the brain for addiction." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=570) > "It's actually a gateway. To much bigger problems with addiction later on in life because you're now priming this developing brain, which is very problematic and has long-term consequences" >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=606) > "They are permanent changes because it's, it's kind of like you having, you know, when your brain is developing, you're laying down neural pathways. But you add the nicotine, and the pathway is not the same. It's glitchy." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=655) > "if you took a brain that hasn't been exposed to nicotine, and you took a brain that has been exposed, to nicotine, and you do like a PET scan or one of these, isotope scans, there is a stark difference." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=696) > "So our adult problems don't start in adulthood, they actually started during adolescence, and so it's so important what we do during adolescence, because it has long-term consequences." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=765) > "my question would be, maybe we need to actually address the pressure because children or people who vape are more anxious, they are more subject to, anxiety, depression, and even with kids like suicidality." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=835) > "kids where there is underlying anxiety, depression, are then more likely to vape as a coping mechanism." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=861) > "Yes, there's the vape, but I think it's a symptom of a much bigger problem that we, that we currently facing, particularly with teen, you know, with teenagers." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=871) > "The study was 25,000 learners across 52 fee, fee-paying schools, public schools. He mentioned that there was no real link between the affluence of the demographic," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: South African vaping statistics · [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=931) > "Then he said, of that percentage, thirty-eight percent had, vote, they said they vaped every single day, which then in my mind is indicating a dependency on the vape." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: South African vaping statistics · [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=990) > "They asked very interesting questions, like how long between waking up and vaping. And almost fifty percent of them were saying within the first hour." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: South African vaping statistics · [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1001) > "They make the distinction between nicotine and non-nicotine, but the point for me is that neither of them is safer because the non-nicotine vapes have all of these, you know, the flavorants and all of that have these chemicals that are as problematic, if not more so than, you know, than the nicotine." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Harmful vape ingredients · [17:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1036) > "because for me, vaping is a maladaptive coping skill. You are needing to cope. So we need to be thinking around alternatives in terms of how do we teach kids coping skills? How do we teach parents coping skills?" >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1236) > "I can't call my mother and ask her about parenting in the digital age because she's had no experience in that. So we are in this uncharted territory, and now we are having to make up the rules as we go." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [21:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1278) > "There's a permissiveness because there's this idea, you know, FOMO is a real thing, even with parenting, you know, fear that my kid, I don't want them to miss out" >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1308) > "anxiety looks so different. You know, it looks like behavior, it looks like outbursts and tantrums and, you know, not wanting to go to school and tummy aches and headaches, you know, so it looks so different, so it can easily be missed." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1347) > "The parents were brought in, and the parents' response was, but the psychologist recommended it. And at that point in the meeting, there was just a prolonged silence," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schools and vaping · [23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1398) > "we've got, programs to wean somebody off of smoking. So those programs exist and they've been developing for many years now and there must be some success with it. How much of that are we doing for vaping?" >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Regulation and policy · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1469) > "Whereas this came in as a wolf in sheep's clothing, really. But I think, actually, we should be going that way, where we should be looking around policy in terms of, so we need actual policy around vaping like we have with cigarettes." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Regulation and policy · [25:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1538) > "they basically have taken the marketing to the market who are the teens, who actually are not at a place that they can distinguish, but then they've also hooked the parents in that it's the lesser of the evil." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Vape industry marketing · [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1593) > "But it kind of came with the boom and I think COVID didn't help either because I think it was very smart even the way the marketing arrived and the fact that it's unregulated is very problematic." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Vape industry marketing · [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1625) > "when I see a child, I have to consider The parents, I have to consider the family system. I can't look just in isolation." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [28:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1724) > "They have designed these things to look like highlighters. They've designed them so that the child can hold it in their hand in a classroom. They've, they've put all these fabulous flavors on them. No adults interested in bubble gum, anything." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Vape industry marketing · [30:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1816) > "Most of the vape companies have been bought out by big tobacco companies who have lost sales in cigarettes." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Vape industry marketing · [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1843) > "here we've got fourteen-year-olds being transported, because they can't even drive, they've been transported to the vape shops to go and pick out, you know, the, the color, the flavor, and that appeals to the adolescent brain," >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [31:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1865) > "one evil for another, and it's being marketed as it's not as bad, but it's probably worse." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Normalisation of teen vaping · [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1966) > "It sounds like to me that there's a big problem in terms of that it's been made to seem safe, and parents think it, a psychologist has even managed to think about it." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Normalisation of teen vaping · [32:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=1976) > "as a, psychiatric society this year, we decided that that's something that we need to pay attention to, but not in a lobbying, but just to creating, to create awareness in the hope that that can sort of begin conversations like these in terms of policy," >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Regulation and policy · [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2056) > "But it does need to be a more collaborative, effort where it's not just health, it's social development, health, education, all coming together." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Regulation and policy · [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2077) > "the other thing is that economics does rule the world, and this is big business. and if you say the tobacco companies are buying the vaping companies, that becomes problematic." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Regulation and policy · [35:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2115) > "In my mind, with the developing brain, there isn't that nicotine is less harmful than cannabis versus, you know, some of the, the others. If anything, it might be more subtle because you don't see the same kind of intoxication effects like you get with alcohol" >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Adolescent brain development · [36:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2197) > "I saw this one kid in our group, I think it was around the second day or third day, he bought a vape into the camp when he was told not to," >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Teen perspectives · [37:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2243) > "we won't necessarily see it immediately, but it starts to chip away, like with smoking, people then eventually develop, you know, emphysema, because it's over a long period of time." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Physical health effects · [37:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2279) > "if you are wondering in your school who your vapers are, yeah, check for the kids who are frequently missing class because of asthma, respiratory infections, that sort of thing." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schools and vaping · [38:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2311) > "I remember our first cases with vapes were the crossover where there was infused marijuana in vapes and things like that." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Marijuana and mental health · [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2349) > "you wouldn't know you have a vulnerability. But marijuana actually can accelerate the onset of that psychotic Episode." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Marijuana and mental health · [40:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2405) > "oftentimes I'll say to kids where they have a family history, then do whatever, but please don't take marijuana because that's the substance that will then precipitate that onset of a severe mental, mental illness, more so than any other substance." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Marijuana and mental health · [40:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2428) > "Policy is just creating the guardrails. Essentially, it's up to us as, as responsible adults to start talking about it, and creating a culture where it's not okay to vape or for kids to vape." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Regulation and policy · [41:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2474) > "there's also studies that show that kids, particularly teenagers who vape, they definitely eat Less fruit, vegetables, and so they have more nutrition problems." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Physical health effects · [42:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2524) > "But there seems to be an equal distribution, and it may be for differing, reasons, but adolescents or adolescents currently is where the, the increase, the increase is seen." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Normalisation of teen vaping · [43:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2593) > "Now we've got to ask specifically about vaping, because they didn't see it as that smoking. No, I don't smoke." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Clinical practice · [43:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2619) > "there is also a myth, you know, parents say, oh, if I talk about it, it's going to make my kid want to do it if I talk about it. Therefore, let's not talk about it." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [44:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2665) > "it's hard for parents to often accept that my child is struggling because it looks so different, because your child can be struggling and they'll still go out with friends." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Anxiety and coping skills · [44:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2699) > "as parents is to put the boundary. Your fourteen-year-old's job is to push the boundary and to keep pushing the boundary, and even sometimes they burn the boundary, but your job is to hold the boundary, and consistency is key." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [45:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2751) > "the lot of the work that we do with parents is getting parents to tolerate the discomfort of having to hold that, that boundary, because you're going to get you the worst mom, I hate you," >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2776) > "what would your 40-year, what would your 40-year-old self say about this? Or what are you gonna, how are you gonna justify the choices you're making now to your 40-year-old, to your 40-year-old self?" >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Teen perspectives · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2828) > "And he says, no, he took it away from his kid. And he thought, what is this all about? And he had a drag of it, and now he's addicted to it." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Addiction · [47:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2856) > "You have to make a decision before. So if you know that where you are going to go, there are going to be people vaping, and you think that if you go, you will be able to not, you should rather stay at home." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Teen perspectives · [48:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2893) > "actually, less than 19% of people actually stop smoking that way. But also, it's not an FDA-approved method for cessation of smoking." >, Alicia Porter, guest · topic: Vaping and smoking cessation · [49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1578803_high.mp3#t=2962) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In a compelling fireside chat, Dr. Alicia Porter, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, addresses the alarming rise of teen vaping. She challenges the normalization of vaping, dissects its harmful components, and explores the long-term consequences on adolescent brain development. This discussion sheds light on the urgent need for awareness, policy changes, and proactive measures to safeguard the mental and physical health of teenagers. Dr Alicia Porter is a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist at ADDNOVA and serves as Secretary of the Board of Directors of the South African Society of Psychiatrists and currently holds an honorary lectureship in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of the Witwatersrand. Dr Porter currently works in private practice at the ADDNOVA centre in Blairgowrie, Johannesburg. She previously served as the Clinical Head of the Child and Family Unit at Charlotte Maxeke Johannesburg Academic Hospital having completed her undergraduate medical training at the University of KwaZulu-Natal in 2002 and the College of Medicine of South Africa in 2010. In 2019, she furthered her expertise with a Diploma in Human Rights, Mental Health, and Law from the Indian Law College in Pune, India. Connect with Dr. Alicia Porter on LinkedIn · Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## AI: Educating for the Inevitable | Prof Benjamin Rosman - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-07-11-ai-educating-for-the-inevitable/ - Date: 2025-07-11 (as at 2025-07-11) - Guest: Benjamin Rosman - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: AI terminology basics, AGI timelines, Future of work, AI ethics and philosophy, Education and AI, Creativity and plagiarism, AI energy and compute, Machine consciousness - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1575405 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Benjamin Rosman - Professor in AI and Robotics · Wits - Professor in AI and Robotics at Wits. He directs the Machine Intelligence and Neural Discovery (MIND) Institute, which he says has brought together 34 academics from across Wits. He says he went into AI decades ago. In their own words: > "Thinking around this, like at Wits, we've just launched what we call the MIND Institute, the Machine Intelligence and Neural Discovery Institute, which is kind of a radically interdisciplinary institute, similar to some others that exist in the world, but really unique globally." [28:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1719) > "And where we've brought together, and I'm directing this institute, we brought together at the moment 34 academics from across Wits, but we're growing that, we're making it pan-African. You know, only about a third of those people come from AI." [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1734) > "I mean, when I went into it two, or decades ago, people saying, you know, when asking what I'm working in, and they say artificial intelligence, getting responses of things along the lines of, whoa, so you believe in aliens?" [57:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3424) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Jacqueline Aitchison, head of Education Incorporated (an independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg), hosts Prof Benjamin Rosman of Wits in front of a live audience. They discuss what AI is, how fast it is moving, and what that means for schooling. Rosman covers machine learning, generative and agentic AI, and his three-to-five-year estimate for AGI. He challenges forecasts that AI will create more jobs than it removes, and raises ethical and philosophical questions, including machine consciousness. He also advises educators. Audience members ask about physical jobs, creativity and plagiarism, autonomous weapons, energy limits and whether humans can keep shaping AI. Rosman draws on his role directing the interdisciplinary MIND Institute. **Key ideas** - Rosman argues that the current pace of AI change is the slowest people will ever see, and describes AI as the fastest-growing field in human history. ([06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=403) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=430)) - Rosman estimates three to five years before AI can do basically anything a human can. He notes that expert estimates have dropped from around twenty-five years. ([15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=925) [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=967)) - Rosman rejects the claim that AI will create more jobs than it displaces. He argues the field aims to build machines better than humans at everything, cognitive work included. ([17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1068) [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1106) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1172) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1172)) - Rosman says today's chatbots are not the thing that will take people's jobs. They are generating training data for the systems that will. ([23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1426) [23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1426)) - Rosman argues that AI ethics needs interdisciplinary input. The MIND Institute brings academics from many fields together, and only a third of them come from AI. ([28:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1719) [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1734) [29:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1799)) - Rosman frames AI-assisted student work as closer to asking a cousin for help than to plagiarism, because the models generate rather than copy. ([51:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3091) [52:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3124)) - Rosman advises teaching children to find value in life beyond what they do for a living. He says coding is still worth learning for problem-solving skills. ([57:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3454) [59:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3568) [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3584)) - Rosman says compute and power, not data, are the bottleneck. He contrasts AI's energy use with the roughly 20 watts the brain uses. ([66:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3968) [66:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3970) [66:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4002) [67:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4047)) **Lessons** - Rosman warns against judging AI's impact by today's tools. He says people overestimate the near future and underestimate the distant future. ([23:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1395) [23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1426)) - Rosman suggests that teachers who could bring AI tools into their classrooms but do not are probably doing their students a disservice. He cautions that the tools need supervision. ([58:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3483) [58:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3499)) - Rosman recommends breaking the future-of-work question into specific problems, such as how people will get income and where they will find value. ([34:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2062) [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2420)) - The host's classroom exercise showed grade eleven students putting their relationship with human teachers ahead of an always-available AI tutor. ([41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2517) [42:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2572)) - Rosman encourages everyone to take part in steering AI, arguing that the more people push in the right direction, the more likely the good outcome. ([70:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4208) [70:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4247)) **Who it's for:** Educators, school leaders and parents trying to prepare children for an AI-shaped world, and general listeners who want a researcher's plain-language view of AGI timelines, jobs, ethics and the energy costs of AI. **Facts stated in the episode** - Rosman estimates that about five hundred AI academic papers are published a day and that about seventy thousand AI companies exist. ([07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=430)) - The host cites a forecast of 92 million jobs displaced and 170 million created by 2030. ([17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1043)) - The MIND Institute currently brings together 34 academics from across Wits, and about a third of them come from AI. ([28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1734)) - Rosman describes a scenario of a five to eight percent rise in unemployment within months in some developed countries. ([35:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2112)) - In the host's thought experiment, 100% of the grade eleven students declined the robot teacher. ([42:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2572)) - Rosman cites predictions that AI could take ten or twenty percent of US power consumption. ([66:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4002)) - Rosman says the human brain uses about 20 watts of energy. ([67:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4047)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When will artificial general intelligence arrive?** A: Rosman estimates three to five years before AIs can do basically anything a human can. He notes that researchers' estimates have dropped from about twenty-five years to three, five or ten years. He also says it may first happen, unseen, in corporate research labs. ([15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=925) [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=967) [16:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=978)) **Q: Will AI create more jobs than it destroys?** A: The host cites a forecast of 92 million jobs displaced and 170 million created by 2030. Rosman calls this kind of claim a load of garbage. He argues the field aims to build machines better than humans at everything, including cognitive work. ([17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1068) [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1106) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1172)) **Q: What should schools teach children now that AI is advancing?** A: Rosman says the most important thing is to teach kids to find value in life beyond what they do for a living, together with curiosity and resilience. He says coding is still useful because it teaches problem solving. ([57:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3454) [59:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3568) [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3584)) **Q: Should teachers use AI tools in the classroom?** A: Rosman likens an AI tool to an enthusiastic intern with two PhDs and no real-world experience. He says not to leave it unsupervised with children, but that not using it in the classroom is probably a disservice. ([58:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3483) [58:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3483) [58:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3499)) **Q: Is using ChatGPT for an assignment plagiarism?** A: Rosman argues it is not plagiarism in the copy-paste sense, because the model generates its output through networks of artificial neurons. He says it is closer to a student asking their cousin for help. ([51:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3091) [52:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3124)) **Q: Is ChatGPT basically a Google search?** A: No. Rosman says lobbyists he met in Brussels wrongly thought so. He explains that the technology looks more like a brain than a conventional computer, and that a large language model predicts the next word. ([11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=690) [33:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1992) [33:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2009)) **Q: Will robots take physical jobs like plumbing too?** A: Rosman says robotics startups are doing things once thought decades away. He reports predictions of humanoid robot factories within five years, and adds that the main question now is driving costs down. ([48:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2884) [48:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2900)) **Q: How much energy does AI use?** A: Rosman cites predictions that AI compute could reach ten or twenty percent of US power consumption. He says new compute centres are being built with power plants attached, and contrasts this with the brain's roughly 20 watts. ([66:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3968) [66:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4002) [67:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4047)) **Q: Can we just switch AI off if it goes wrong?** A: Rosman says it is very hard to turn off, because many models have been open sourced and thousands of copies now exist around the world. ([65:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3934)) **Q: What is agentic AI?** A: Rosman describes agentic AI as systems that can take actions and launch other AI systems to solve sub-problems, with a focus on sequential decision-making and consequences. ([12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=752)) ### Passage: Generality, AGI and superintelligence explained [09:21-11:12, 375 words] Note (AI): Rosman explains why generality is the field's grand challenge, why ChatGPT-style tools feel broadly useful, and how he defines AGI and ASI. Benjamin Rosman, guest [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=561): > So what everyone's trying to build are machines that are more and more general. And it's, it's really only in the last 10, 15 years that that's started to happen at any reasonable scale. And I think that's why ChatGPT and friends have become so popular now is because of the kind of broad diversity of things they're able to do. Everybody, no matter what industry they're in, has some use case that they're really fond of and that they like, like to brag about, like, I found this cool thing I can do with it, right? And it's because of that, that's the generality that we're starting to see the glimpses of coming through, that makes it exciting. Because the tools Haven't been built with each of those use cases in place. Okay. Now this is kind of part of the way we've been thinking about machine learning in recent years. This is part of the way they're trained, but we don't have to go kind of use case by use case figuring out how to solve it, which is how things were done 15 years ago. This is where the race is now. Now there's huge upshots or like the implications to this are, I think, really profound and we'll probably talk about a fair bit. So artificial general intelligence, there's many different definitions of what this is, but it roughly talks to like a point where machines are able to do anything that a human can do at like a human level of competence. Now there's different definitions. My personal feeling is you can define it however you want. They're all, you know, within a small amount of time. If it hits one, it will hit whatever other one you want. And artificial superintelligence is kind of this point, again, many different definitions where like an AI system is equivalent in intelligence, again, for You want to define it, we can talk about these things to maybe the whole planet of humans. These are, these are rough landmarks that people talk about in different ways, and then questions are all about when do we hit these things, will we hit these things, and what does it mean when we hit these things. ### Passage: Why the new-jobs forecast doesn't add up [19:32-21:41, 447 words] Note (AI): This is Rosman's worked argument that cognitive work is also exposed to automation, and it challenges the forecasts of job creation. Benjamin Rosman, guest [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1172): > So humans have two spheres of labor that we've always worked. We do physical labor and we do kind of cognitive labor. And kind of in previous industrial revolutions, there, there's been a general shift of humanity from the physical to the cognitive. and this is kind of correlates with what we see as our most esteemed jobs and things is like the more heady you can be, the more you sit at your desk and hurt your back, like the better, like life is for you or something. That's the realm that we kind of aspire to. So there's, there's always been this, you know, these discussions about you, you want to upskill people. Implies that there's this, this hierarchy of things get better and you want to, more training means you better. In your higher up hierarchy. But also that means you're doing more and more intellectually, you know, intellectual type tasks that maybe fewer and fewer people higher up are able to actually do. Turns out all of these things are at risk of automation, right? So now if you're building systems that the exact same system can speak all the languages and can write poetry and can write, you know, maybe it's never, gone through a breakup, but if it's read every angsty breakup letter on the internet, it probably understands it better than you do. If it's got all this kind of experience, it's read every book on how to use Excel. It's, it can write the books on how to use Excel. It can process all the YouTube videos on this. It can also do all of this two hundred thousand times faster than any human, let alone consume every bit of information ever generated. What on earth is a human going to do in the face of that? Like, so, so I'm always left wondering, what are these imaginary jobs that people in their hubris like to think humans will magically always be Able to do that these machines that we can literally see trying to zoom past us on all these dimensions already as we sit here, already it can code better than I can. It can write better poetry than I can. Like, and this has happened over the space of, we take the whole tail into account, but really over the space of the last couple of years that this has happened, right? Again, the slowest change in this technology we'll ever see. It's just happened. Exactly. And, and again, I'm left wondering, like, where, where are these, you know, 170 million new jobs that are going to be created? Because to me, that doesn't make sense. ### Passage: Unemployment shock versus rethinking work [34:22-37:10, 597 words] Note (AI): Rosman sets out the risk of rapid unemployment and suggests planning for a paradigm shift by working through specific questions about income and meaning. Benjamin Rosman, guest [34:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2062): > Well, my, my view here is that if we do the, put our head in the sand and say, no, things will all work out fine, maybe they will in the long term. But like, you know, what I see happening is more and more people are going to get either retrenched or, or not replaced, or there's just going to be a smaller demand for various skills, and this is going to be happening across kind of every sector in parallel, very, it's already happening very slowly at first, but then people say, oh, look, but some jobs were created, and they take that to mean, no, don't worry about it, and sounds a little bit like the, it can't be global warming because it snowed somewhere, you know, it's that kind of thing. We're looking at the macro picture here. And, and if you, you have the view that like, yeah, it's all going to work out, there'll just be jobs we can't even imagine yet, right? And again, maybe, like, we don't know what the future looks like, but, you know, if, if you just kind of accept that, then it is Possible, we end up at a point where, you know, in the space of a few months in some developed countries, you end up getting an uptick of unemployment of like five to eight percent or something in just a few months, and the social safety net can't handle that, civilization could collapse. It seems not a great outcome. I'm not a huge fan of this. on the other hand, maybe we could take other views and we could say, you know, something that I've been thinking about a bit, I'm not an economist, I'm not like a sociologist, but, you know, maybe this is a good thing. Maybe working for a living is immoral, and we shouldn't do it. But we've always had to do it because Humans are the ones who get the work done. But like, if you really think about it, you've got to do a thing which is bad for you, probably emotionally or psychologically or physically. But if you don't do that, then you and your family don't get to eat next month. Right? Which is kind of barbaric, if you put it in that terms, but that's what like all of humanity's been about. So maybe we shouldn't do that. Maybe we should instead figure out how to get all these crazy machines that are going to be so good at everything to do all the shitty work for us. Instead, we figure out what that society looks like. Now, there's a difference here between kind of accepting what might be happening and trying to plan ahead and say, this might require a paradigm shift, rather than saying, let's see what happens and there might be revolutions along the way. And then you can be quite specific about questions. You can say, okay, then how will people get, you know, whatever the, their currency is to buy food? There's a very well-defined problem you can think about. Or where will people find value in life if they're not working for a living? Well, they'll Is a very specific question we can have discussions about, but it's about taking some of these framings, challenging what the framing is, what might happen, and saying, okay, how would this affect some aspect? Now let's have a very specific discussion on this while other people think about other aspects. And that's what I would like to see more happening. ### Passage: Grade eleven students reject a robot teacher [41:57-44:15, 459 words] Note (AI): The host describes a classroom thought experiment in which every student turned down an AI tutor on values and relationship grounds. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2517): > There's something I did at the end of last year that became another little thought experiment. The grade eleven English class got a question saying, Given the global teacher crisis, Edu Inc is struggling to get an English teacher, so we've decided that you are going to have an AI-driven robot who is going to teach your English, and this robot will have the features of a woman. She's going to be dressed as a woman, features of a woman. Will be able to turn her head when she hears your voice, so it looks like she's engaging with you. She'll be able to move her arms, but she won't be able to walk around in the room, and she's not going to have changing facial expressions. The benefit of this is that you can also have this, this robot teach you any subject at any given time. So it's not just an English teacher. Now this, this is a resource on hand for whatever subject you would like. They could choose, they could write a letter to the head, or they could write a speech about it to the parents or, or whatever. And what was really interesting was 100% of those students didn't want it. We're such a techie school. We have kids who are so, tech is just an extension of their own existence. Every single one of them said no. For most of them, what was really fascinating to me was when they said no, it was a values-based no. Their answer was, this goes against the values of the school. I'm going to complain to the board that you have now taken a decision that is not a values-based decision, and it was all because of our relationship-based teaching. This robot can't tell if I have a headache. This robot can't tell if I have a tummy ache or if I'm just really tired because I had a bad night and I didn't sleep. The robot can't say to me, just put your head down on the desk for five minutes and take a breather. The robot can't read the room and say, right, clearly you just need five minutes outside, all of you, outside, come back in when you're ready. And it was all down to I have a relationship with a human being when it comes to something as important as my education. So they were actually prioritizing the relationship with the human being above I could get straight A's because I could have this robot on call tutoring me one on one day in and day out. That was prioritized lower than the relationship with the person who could look at them and say, you've got a headache, just take five minutes. ### Passage: What AI means for education, now and later [57:34-60:13, 516 words] Note (AI): This is Rosman's most direct advice to teachers and parents: use AI tools now, and teach problem solving, curiosity, resilience and finding value beyond work. Benjamin Rosman, guest [57:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3454): > What this means for us, like in the education space, I think it's useful to think at like two different timescales, right? So the one is, what does this mean for me tomorrow? And then what does it mean for me, like, into the future, this murky, uncertain future? Now, for the tomorrow, if we were these things that are able to consume, like, all of human knowledge, and are able to generate usually useful and coherent things, in this wide variety of tasks, I often liken using an AI tool to having, like, a super enthusiastic intern who's done, like, two PhDs, but has zero real world experience. And, like, if you have that, right, you're not gonna leave that with your children unsupervised, but, like, if you have the ability to bring a bunch of these into your classroom with you, and you're not doing it, you're probably doing a disservice. That means you've gotta learn, like, how do I get the most value out of this, but this should be, like, the most exciting thing you could possibly do in an educational context. What does this mean longer term? You also touched on that question there of, like, what is education for? The one aspect of it, I think, is about teaching you to, like, Like, find yourself, find your place in society, your relationship to others, and these kinds of things. But then also there's a piece about learning how to go out into the world and, like, get your income and, and that kind of thing. And maybe that bit is less useful. Maybe that's something that we should be pivoting away from. So I spent many years people asking me what should they teach their kids, of saying, like, well, they should learn to code. And then I recently saw a quote somewhere online that said, telling someone that they should learn to code is now as useful life advice as you should get a face tattoo. But I do fundamentally disagree with that. I think we're at the stage now where very soon AI will be a better coder than any human ever will be. However, something like learning to code, the reason you want to do that is to be able to learn to think through problems, kind of break it down, like problem solving, right? So I think that there are these fundamental skills that typically are just useful things to have going through the world. What I've more recently been saying to people is I think the most important thing, given these, this uncertainty, these crises around jobs, is to teach kids to find value in life beyond what they do for a living. And that to me is, is critical. It's that combined with curiosity, with some resilience, like these, these things that we, we know are valuable, but tend to get, you know, there, there's not a checkbox for them. And so they tend to fall off the, these are the things you need coming out of school kind of list in most places. ### Passage: Compute, power consumption and efficiency research [66:08-67:49, 358 words] Note (AI): Rosman explains that compute, not data, is the bottleneck, describes the energy demands and nuclear-powered compute centres, and outlines the research push for efficiency. Benjamin Rosman, guest [66:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3968): > to be generative, it can create its own data. So that, that is a problem at the moment because that if, if it's only creating its own data, it tends to get worse and worse over time. The big bottleneck many of us talk about is more on like the computational power. And these are like what they call compute centers rather than data centers. This is basically part of the arms races around this, because what they rely on is like GPUs, which is graphics processing units, all the stuff that you want if you want to be gaming on your home computer, you just want like gazillions of these things to be running these AIs. And the power consumption's crazy, like the, the predictions of like, you know, in the next however many years, this will be ten or twenty percent of like the US's power consumption will be these things, which is why you're seeing a lot of the big tech companies that are in this race are now building, like their new compute centers have power plants attached to them, including now all the discussions around nuclear power. So you're gonna have these compute centers in places like Texas that are being built that have nuclear power plants attached to them to keep them going. The flip side of that is in the research space, there's a huge drive to build more and more efficient systems. And so like a significant percentage of what, what is happening in AI research is how do we do this more efficiently. Our Inspiration is the brain, but there's a very different mechanism from an energy usage point of view. Like, you know, the brain uses something like 20 watts of energy, whereas these things are like, you know, nuclear power plants. There's a tension there which drives a lot of research questions, which I think are, are pretty interesting. I mean, the, the other funny thing is that, you know, AI is often touted as will be a solution to global warming. Once we figure out how to stop them being a huge contributor to global warming. ### Quotes > "I'm not biased at all, but I think it's the most important thing humankind has ever done." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [07:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=453) > "Like, we're talking about without failure, across the board, humans being obsolete. That is literally the point of the field." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1142) > "That's not the thing that's taking your job. That's just generating training data for the thing that's going to take your job." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1426) > "if we get AI right, we become immortal, and we get it wrong, we go extinct. And we've got one shot to get it right." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [28:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1711) > "like I definitely don't want the future written by computer scientists, that would be a terrible idea." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [29:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1799) > "Pull that thread and you've got Lord of the Flies." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2331) > "Of course not, because we're meat chauvinists." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [46:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2767) > "because all I wanted was that my laundry would get automated so I could spend time making art, and we did it all backwards, right?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [47:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2876) > "we don't do science because it has an application. We do science because it's cool." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [56:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3375) > "I often liken using an AI tool to having, like, a super enthusiastic intern who's done, like, two PhDs, but has zero real world experience." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [58:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3483) > "telling someone that they should learn to code is now as useful life advice as you should get a face tattoo." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [59:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3552) > "AI is often touted as will be a solution to global warming. Once we figure out how to stop them being a huge contributor to global warming." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · [67:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4062) ### Claims > "AI, artificial intelligence, is kind of an academic discipline that's been around since the term was coined in the fifties, like trying to build intelligent machines." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=129) > "And machine learning is this idea that Well, as computer scientists, we're very lazy people. It's very hard for us to describe to machines how to solve certain problems, but instead we can give them examples of things and get the machine to figure out how to solve the problem itself." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=179) > "And that's really kind of at its core, what that's about is understanding the data well enough. That you're able to kind of get the machine to replicate or give you feasible examples of that data." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=235) > "And it's been something that I feel like kind of a big duty on people in the field to say, that's the slowest you'll ever see it change." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=403) > "AI is the fastest growing field in human history. Estimates are something like five hundred academic papers published a day, in the field. There's something like seventy thousand companies that are AI companies in the world at the moment, and new ones being founded daily." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=430) > "So artificial general intelligence, there's many different definitions of what this is, but it roughly talks to like a point where machines are able to do anything that a human can do at like a human level of competence." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=624) > "so when you look at something like ChatGPT, its job, like really fundamentally under the hood what it's doing, as a large language model, its job is to predict the next word." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=690) > "So typically the way people think now about, agentic AI, what they typically mean is you've got these systems that are able to instantiate other kinds of systems." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=752) > "And then suddenly, if you look at kind of the same groups of people, you know, now the estimates would be three years, five years, maybe some would be ten, and like these are the kinds of, of discussions that people are having." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=925) > "but I think, I think we're looking in the three to five year range before we get AIs that are, are capable of basically doing anything that a human can do." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=967) > "Because it's going to happen in research labs, particularly corporate research labs. I think there'll be certain decisions made that we're not aware of about what to do with these things." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [16:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=978) > "By 2030, 92 million jobs displaced, gone, never to be seen again, but 170 million will have been created. We just don't know what they're going to be yet." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Future of work · [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1043) > "So with all due respect to many of my esteemed colleagues around the world, I think that's a load of garbage." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1068) > "We're talking about a field where the aim of the field is to build machines that are better than humans at everything." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1106) > "So humans have two spheres of labor that we've always worked. We do physical labor and we do kind of cognitive labor. And kind of in previous industrial revolutions, there, there's been a general shift of humanity from the physical to the cognitive." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1172) > "already it can code better than I can. It can write better poetry than I can." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [21:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1277) > "Over the last couple of months, knowing that this talk was coming up, I've been asking, just in passing conversation, saying to friends, and I've spoken to one in banking, and I've spoken to a friend in IT, supply chain management for a delivery company, and every single one I've just in passing said, and how do you think AI is going to affect your industry?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Future of work · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1316) > "Humans always tend to kind of overestimate the near future and underestimate the distant future. And that's because you're kind of extrapolating on a straight line where things are, are doing this." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AGI timelines · [23:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1395) > "That's not the thing that's taking your job. That's just generating training data for the thing that's going to take your job." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [23:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1426) > "As AI is more and more involved in researching and developing the next generation of AI, the gap between what humans understand and what's actually happening is going to grow." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [25:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1503) > "And he said, because we didn't design it. This is not a product of human endeavor. We designed the learning algorithm and then it took it from there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [25:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1548) > "Thinking around this, like at Wits, we've just launched what we call the MIND Institute, the Machine Intelligence and Neural Discovery Institute, which is kind of a radically interdisciplinary institute, similar to some others that exist in the world, but really unique globally." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [28:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1719) > "And where we've brought together, and I'm directing this institute, we brought together at the moment 34 academics from across Wits, but we're growing that, we're making it pan-African. You know, only about a third of those people come from AI." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1734) > "One angle is to make sure that Africa is taking, you know, a seat at the big table, but also to help try and steer this in the right direction." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [29:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1787) > "I mean, I, I recently had some Discussions with some political lobbyists in Brussels, basically their view of how ChatGPT works was completely wrong. Essentially, it's like doing Google searches." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [33:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=1992) > "the technology we're talking about looks a lot more like a brain than what you think of as a computer." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [33:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2009) > "then it is Possible, we end up at a point where, you know, in the space of a few months in some developed countries, you end up getting an uptick of unemployment of like five to eight percent or something in just a few months, and the social safety net can't handle that, civilization could collapse." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [35:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2112) > "Maybe working for a living is immoral, and we shouldn't do it. But we've always had to do it because Humans are the ones who get the work done." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [35:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2147) > "I don't agree with the argument of, oh, well, the government can just give everyone a stipend, a monthly stipend to, to maintain consumerism or economy through consumerism." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Future of work · [39:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2387) > "The one is about the money, could be a universal basic income, something like that. The other is really where you find your sense of value from." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2420) > "And what was really interesting was 100% of those students didn't want it. We're such a techie school. We have kids who are so, tech is just an extension of their own existence. Every single one of them said no." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Education and AI · [42:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2572) > "One is that this technology is being built, it's kind of being optimized to be addictive." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [44:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2663) > "We've just submitted a paper recently showing that large language models are more empathetic than humans are, regardless of age, gender, where in the world, or how much training in psychology they have." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [45:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2718) > "Did you ever stop and think about the machine teacher's feelings? No, you didn't. No. Of course not, because we're meat chauvinists." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Machine consciousness · [46:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2762) > "AI is not going to fix your toilet when it breaks in the middle of the night." >, Ryan, intro voice or played clip · topic: Future of work · [47:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2854) > "There are a large number of robotics startups that have been able to do things that five years ago we thought were decades away. But now there's this feedback cycle, so that the advances in AI are being used to drive these advances." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [48:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2884) > "people are saying, you know, within five years, we're going to see massive robotics factories popping up everywhere that will be mass producing like humanoid robots that can do all the things that we say, no, we'll all get jobs as plumbers." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Future of work · [48:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2900) > "because like the theories range from it's an emergent phenomena that if you build a artificial brain complex enough, it'll just emerge, to maybe it can't be supported by silicon-based systems, it has to be on carbon-based systems," >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Machine consciousness · [49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=2962) > "The way that these technologies work, at the core, it's a, based on a crude approximation to like 1940s neuroscience, where you've literally got billions of neurons that are connected together, and they're all firing and sending signals around between each other," >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Creativity and plagiarism · [51:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3091) > "it's like the student's not plagiarizing, it's more similar to say, they asked their cousin for help on the assignment." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Creativity and plagiarism · [52:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3124) > "in the same way as if you enjoy playing guitar, and there Exists a better guitarist on the planet, that doesn't mean it's not worth doing it, right?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Creativity and plagiarism · [53:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3191) > "How do we fix hard problems, whether they're, you know, death or climate change or poverty, we tend to throw more intelligence at them, right? That's how we solve hard problems as a species." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [54:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3280) > "I think we gotta start with our own philosophy and our own value systems and go back to first principles. So why do we educate people? We educate so we can function in society." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Education and AI · [55:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3339) > "I mean, when I went into it two, or decades ago, people saying, you know, when asking what I'm working in, and they say artificial intelligence, getting responses of things along the lines of, whoa, so you believe in aliens?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI terminology basics · [57:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3424) > "I often liken using an AI tool to having, like, a super enthusiastic intern who's done, like, two PhDs, but has zero real world experience." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Education and AI · [58:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3483) > "but, like, if you have the ability to bring a bunch of these into your classroom with you, and you're not doing it, you're probably doing a disservice." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Education and AI · [58:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3499) > "However, something like learning to code, the reason you want to do that is to be able to learn to think through problems, kind of break it down, like problem solving, right?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Education and AI · [59:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3568) > "What I've more recently been saying to people is I think the most important thing, given these, this uncertainty, these crises around jobs, is to teach kids to find value in life beyond what they do for a living." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Education and AI · [59:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3584) > "I have a little passion project called, Futureproof, where we teach children entrepreneurial skills or young people. I think the one thing that all kids need to be aware of, and we teach us, is that opportunity awareness." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Education and AI · [60:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3613) > "it's very dehumanizing just watching how someone can, you know, press a button five kilometers away and then a group of people die." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [63:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3825) > "I, I completely reckon by the time we have conscious machines, if a human says go to war, they'll say no." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Machine consciousness · [64:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3858) > "There are these discussions around the machine should never be able to pull the trigger. Like, the, the final call has Has to be made by a human." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [64:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3872) > "because of the way that this has all been open sourced, it's very hard to just turn it off because, you know, many of these models, there's now thousands of copies all over the world," >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [65:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3934) > "So that, that is a problem at the moment because that if, if it's only creating its own data, it tends to get worse and worse over time." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI energy and compute · [66:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=3970) > "the predictions of like, you know, in the next however many years, this will be ten or twenty percent of like the US's power consumption will be these things," >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI energy and compute · [66:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4002) > "Like, you know, the brain uses something like 20 watts of energy, whereas these things are like, you know, nuclear power plants." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI energy and compute · [67:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4047) > "Does AI remain susceptible or like open to being shaped? And then is that not where the values get transmitted and everyone lives happily together?" >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [68:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4093) > "I mean, I, I suspect that AI already has a fairly large influence globally in terms of the number of CEOs that are asking questions of, should I do this or that?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [68:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4112) > "but if, if there's all these possible futures, one of them's going to happen, and what should we as a society be doing to make the one we want to happen be the actual one that happens?" >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: Education and AI · [70:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4208) > "You know, the more people participating in this and pushing Trying to steer things in the right direction, the more likely it is to happen." >, Benjamin Rosman, guest · topic: AI ethics and philosophy · [70:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1575405_high.mp3#t=4247) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) From Hype to Hope Beyond the AI Horizon Dr Benjamin Rosman (Professor in AI and Robotics - Wits) Episode Description In our latest session, Jacqueline Aitchison (Education Incorporated) sat down with Prof. Benjamin Rosman (University of the Witwatersrand University) for a compelling conversation on the implications of artificial intelligence. Judging by the strong attendance and online engagement, it’s clear this topic struck a chord with our community. The occasional gasps and audible “yikes” from the audience spoke volumes, this was more than just an academic discussion; it was eye-opening. One of the key takeaways was just how much we might be underestimating AI’s potential to eventually replace, and even surpass, human capabilities. Yet, on a more optimistic note, we may also be undervaluing the ethical frameworks emerging within AI systems themselves. Encouragingly, these systems can, in some cases, demonstrate ethical decision-making, even when humans attempt to exploit them. Connect with Prof Rosman on LinkedIn · Watch full version on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Unrested Minds: A Teen’s Journey Through ADHD and Sleep - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-05-22-unrested-minds-a-teen-s-journey/ - Date: 2025-05-22 (as at 2025-05-22) - Guest: Alison Bentley, Peter - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: ADHD medication and sleep, Restless leg syndrome, Delayed sleep phase syndrome, Sleep hygiene and screens, Melatonin use, Dreams and REM sleep, Sleep and long-term health - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1558574 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Alison Bentley - sleep medicine expert - A GP by training who has only ever done sleep medicine, seeing patients from six months old to 98 with sleep disorders including insomnia, sleep apnea and restless legs; particular interest in children's sleep. In their own words: > "I'm a GP by training, but I've only ever done sleep medicine. So I see patients from six months old to 98 or wherever the end is, and all kinds of sleep disorders." [00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=26) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Peter - student · Edu Inc - Grade eleven student who has attended Edu Inc for three years; diagnosed with ADHD at the age of four and has struggled with sleep throughout his life. In their own words: > "I am a student at Edu Inc. I am in grade eleven, and I've been attending for three years. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of four years old, and I've struggled with my sleep habit throughout all my life, really." [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=76) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A fireside chat hosted by Gershom Aitchison, headmaster of Edu Inc (Education Incorporated), a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. Peter, a grade eleven student diagnosed with ADHD at four, describes medication crashes, racing thoughts and restless nights. Sleep medicine doctor Alison Bentley questions him and identifies probable restless leg syndrome, which no earlier professional had raised. She argues that ADHD medication is often wrongly blamed for sleep problems. She explains delayed sleep phase syndrome, melatonin and screens, REM sleep and the long-term health costs of poor sleep. Peter's mother adds history from his infancy, and audience members ask about treatment and teen sleep needs. **Key ideas** - Dr Bentley argues that Peter's difficulty falling asleep is unlikely to be caused by his medication, because long-acting stimulants wear off within about eight to ten hours. ([07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=430) [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=485) [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2101)) - Dr Bentley says restless legs is about twice as common in people with ADHD and rarely reported unless someone asks, because sufferers assume it is normal. ([09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=573) [10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=619) [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=627) [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2391)) - Dr Bentley holds that sleep disorders exaggerate ADHD symptoms, and that treating the sleep problem can mean less ADHD medication is needed. ([36:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2188) [37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2233) [37:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2257)) - Dr Bentley reframes Peter's end-of-day Concerta crash as sleep debt that the medication masks during the day. ([04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=298) [38:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2303)) - Dr Bentley describes delayed sleep phase syndrome as the most common disorder in young men, and says school holidays are what push teens out of their time zone. ([11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=706) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=706) [47:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2854)) - Dr Bentley explains that melatonin is made only in dim light, so screen light close to the face delays sleepiness. ([27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1642) [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1740)) - Dr Bentley likens sleep to servicing a car, and says chronic under-servicing brings diseases such as diabetes, cardiac disease and dementia about ten years early. ([40:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2441) [40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2454) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2480)) **Dr Bentley's melatonin protocol for delayed sleep phase** ([46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2776) [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2793)) 1. Set bedtime an hour earlier than the current sleep time, for example one o'clock if sleep comes at two. 2. Give a big dose of melatonin an hour and a half before bedtime, chewed so it acts as fast release. 3. Keep a very strict wake-up time, with lots of light in the morning. 4. After a couple of days, move bedtime another hour earlier, and repeat. 5. Once in the right time zone, stay on melatonin a little longer and avoid staying up late. **Lessons** - Dr Bentley advises asking directly about an urge to move the legs, for example by asking a fidgeting person to stop and describe what happens in their head. ([10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=627) [49:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2997) [50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3043)) - Peter's mother and Dr Bentley show that sleep problems which began before medication point to a cause other than the meds. ([34:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2083) [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2101)) - Dr Bentley tells parents to limit holiday sleep-ins, because a shifted body clock may then need deliberate treatment. ([47:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2854) [47:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2879)) - Dr Bentley stresses a wind-down period before bed; studying until the minute before bedtime does not work. ([03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=209) [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1615)) - Dr Bentley cautions that melatonin helps with sleepiness and timing but is not a fix for every child. ([42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2559) [43:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2600)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers with ADHD, teens on stimulant medication who struggle with sleep, and teachers who notice tiredness in class. Also anyone who suspects restless legs or a delayed body clock but has never been asked about their sleep. **Facts stated in the episode** - Dr Bentley says restless legs is about double the prevalence in people with ADHD. ([10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=619)) - According to Dr Bentley, there is a sixty percent chance that someone in the immediate family of a person with restless legs also has it. ([19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1150)) - Dr Bentley says long-acting stimulants work for about eight hours, with one lasting about ten. ([08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=485)) - Dr Bentley gives the usual melatonin dose as between two and five milligrams at night. ([44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2661)) - Dr Bentley says eight to nine hours of sleep is normal for teenagers. ([48:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2907)) - Peter is in grade eleven, has attended Edu Inc for three years and was diagnosed with ADHD at age four. ([01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=76)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Does ADHD medication like Concerta cause teenage insomnia?** A: Dr Bentley argues it usually doesn't. Long-acting stimulants work for about eight to ten hours, so a morning dose has gone by bedtime. She says a lot gets blamed on the meds, and Peter's mother notes he slept restlessly before any medication. ([08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=485) [34:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2083) [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2101)) **Q: Is restless leg syndrome linked to ADHD?** A: Dr Bentley says restless legs is about double the prevalence in people with ADHD. It is highly hereditary, with a sixty percent chance that someone in the immediate family also has it. It often goes unreported because people assume it is normal. ([10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=619) [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=627) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1150)) **Q: How can I tell if leg jiggling is restless legs rather than anxiety or ADHD?** A: Dr Bentley asks the person to stop moving. If what goes on in their head is an urgent need to move, that is restless legs. Other signs include panic at a middle seat on an overnight flight, and sleeping better on a painkiller than on a sleeping tablet. ([50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3043) [51:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3079) [52:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3129)) **Q: Can you become dependent on restless legs medication?** A: Dr Bentley says it is not a sleeping tablet. It calms an overactive part of the nervous system back to normal. She adds that people who take sleep medication and function well are no more addicted than anyone relying on their medicine. ([24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1456) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1497) [25:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1555)) **Q: How much sleep do teenagers need?** A: Dr Bentley says eight to nine hours is normal. Regularly sleeping something like eleven till eleven suggests poor sleep quality or a weekday sleep debt that should be investigated. ([48:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2907)) **Q: How do you fix a teenager's body clock that has shifted very late?** A: Dr Bentley moves bedtime back an hour at a time. She gives a big chewed dose of melatonin an hour and a half before bed, keeps a strict wake-up time with lots of morning light, and repeats. ([46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2776) [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2793)) **Q: Is melatonin safe for kids with ADHD?** A: Dr Bentley calls it a very safe drug, usually taken at two to five milligrams at night. Kids with ADHD often sleep better on it because they feel sleepier, but she says it is not a fix-all. ([42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2559) [43:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2600) [44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2661)) **Q: Why do phone screens at night make it harder to fall asleep?** A: Dr Bentley explains that melatonin is made only in dim light. Screen light close to the face delays melatonin, and so delays sleepiness. ([27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1642)) **Q: Why is my child tired after eight hours of sleep?** A: Dr Bentley says waking unrefreshed after eight hours is never good. It points to disorders such as sleep apnea or leg movements that destroy sleep quality. ([16:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1002) [21:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1298)) ### Passage: Why falling asleep fails when the mind revs [07:10-09:06, 443 words] Note (AI): Dr Bentley explains the accelerator-and-brake model of sleep onset and argues that long-acting stimulants have worn off by bedtime, so they are not the cause. Alison Bentley, guest [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=430): > That's quite a common thing, that, that, that you, that you do feel sleepy, but then it kind of goes away. So when we talk about sleep, and just, so I'm going to give you some info as we go along. So when we talk about sleep, we talk about that sleep and awake should be like binary, like computers, one, zero. There, there shouldn't be a one and a half anywhere. Okay. When they do collide, when you do fall asleep, there's this very clear sense that you have to switch off the accelerator, which is you being awake. Yes. You have to switch that off and put the brake on. Right. So that has to be, that has to happen. And very often what happens is that the accelerator stays on, and then you get that head. It just keeps running, and you go like, actually now I could do that project, because I'm like wide awake, but that's actually not what the, this time is for. This time is actually to be asleep. So there is that sense that you can get that, and a lot of people go, that's the meds, okay? That's the meds that's keeping me awake. Well, the bottom line is, if you have the crash, you can't, it can't be the meds anymore, right? Because they've gone. All of those meds, whether they're, they're, the long-acting medication, the long-acting stimulants, work for about eight hours, okay? There's one that works for about ten hours, but if you're taking it at six in the morning, it's gone by the time you go to bed, okay? So it's not the meds. So then you have to go, why am I having this problem with, with falling asleep? Like, why? And, and part of the problem is because sleep is an incredibly passive process. Falling asleep, you just gotta be sleepy, and you just have to let go. Abandon yourself to the forces of sleep, okay? And you have to do that, but if your head is running high, and you're thinking a lot, It's very difficult to do that. And so what you're, what you're describing is what most patients with insomnia describe is that sense of being sleepy, switching the light off, and if you don't fall asleep fast enough, like the whole system revs up, and then it's hard to go back to sleep. It's, you don't feel sleepy anymore, and your head is just running, and, and you're awake, awake. Okay. And then there is a sense that you're going to fall asleep a lot later. It's not the meds, that's the important thing. ### Passage: Uncovering Peter's restless leg syndrome [09:33-11:16, 379 words] Note (AI): This is the turning point: one direct question reveals a lifelong symptom that no other professional had asked about. It shows how restless legs goes unrecognised in children with ADHD. Alison Bentley, guest [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=573): > Falling asleep is very clear that that can be a problem because your head can be running high. There's also a couple of things of real Sleep disorders that can stop you falling asleep as well. So one of those is restless leg syndrome. Yeah. Okay? Ever get a sense that you have an urge to move your legs, that you can't lie still, that you're uncomfortable? Yes, Peter, guest [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=590): > yes. Alison Bentley, guest [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=590): > When you try to fall asleep? Peter, guest [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=592): > And I've, I've been like that all my life. my mom used to deal, deal with it when I was in bed. She called me a kicker. That was, that was her name for it. She would wake up with bruises on her legs. Alison Bentley, guest [10:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=601): > Right. So the question is, how many people have asked you that question in your journey? Peter, guest [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=607): > Just you, Dr. Bentley. Alison Bentley, guest [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=609): > That's my problem, because that is a sleep disorder, and restless leg syndrome, you know that if you're lying there and you can't get comfortable, then you can't fall asleep, right? Okay, so restless legs is one of those things that is much more common in patients who have ADHD, like double the prevalence that it is in people who don't have ADHD. So it's one of those things that unless you ask about it specifically, you aren't going to tell anybody because you don't think it's related. More than that, if you've had it for as long as you can remember, you don't know it's abnormal. Peter, guest [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=641): > Yeah, I just think it's normal. Yeah, Alison Bentley, guest [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=643): > you do. And so, I mean, I've just come from a consult with a 17-year-old kid, same age as you, basically, who's got ADHD, who, again, I was the first person to ask him if he's got restless legs, and he does. And then his mom goes, oh, by the way, I also like do this with my feet when I fall asleep, kind of move them backwards and forwards. I thought that was just about, you know, soothing kind of thing. And I go, well, what happens if you stop moving them? And she goes, oh, no, no, no. That, that doesn't work, no. Don't ask me to do that, right? So that's restless leg syndrome, and restless leg syndrome will stop you falling asleep. ### Passage: Delayed sleep phase syndrome in teenagers [11:46-14:33, 638 words] Note (AI): Explains the teenage body-clock shift, how school holidays make it worse, and why forcing an early bedtime fails. Alison Bentley, guest [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=706): > The other big disorder that can stop you falling asleep is what we call delayed sleep phase syndrome, which is the most common disorder in young men your age. Every young person your age gets a shift of about an hour, so it just becomes a little harder to fall asleep. And you see it in your classmates. So you go from classes where kids are awake in the morning and they come to school and they're super cheerful to like over the course of a year, they come into school, everyone's grumpy. Peter, guest [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=732): > Yeah. Alison Bentley, guest [12:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=733): > Okay? You seen this? You see, if kids go to school by car, they go from being talkative in the car to being like... Peter, guest [12:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=740): > Completely dead. Alison Bentley, guest [12:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=741): > Dead in the car, right? And then you come to school and then it's about first break, you suddenly go, oh, I feel a whole lot better, Peter, guest [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=748): > right? Like I've woken up. You can also see it in, in the classmates around you. I mean, my friends as well are at school here. They're usually quite dead until about nine thirty in the morning and then everybody's up cooking eggs. Yes. Alison Bentley, guest [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=761): > And the interesting thing is they haven't had any more sleep, right? So the sense is that you haven't had enough sleep. That is why you're sleepy. But they haven't had any more sleep, the half past nine, but they feel a whole lot better. And that's because of this little time zone shift. Like you just shift, like you're sleeping an hour into the Atlantic. Does that make sense? Like, that side, right? It can get much worse than that. So you do know that during school holidays, and I'm not going to ask you to confess it because I just know it happens anyway, is that during school holidays you kind of stay up late at night, because you can, because it's super easy for you guys to stay awake late. So you stay up late, and then your parents go, oh, shame, it's the holidays, like sleep in till ten, eleven in the morning, right? And that sounds like a great plan, but then when school starts again, there are a group of you guys who don't come back into the right time zone. Peter, guest [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=807): > No, your schedule's all... Alison Bentley, guest [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=809): > Schedule's all off, right? You messed Peter, guest [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=810): > up. It's waking up on that first morning, especially in winter, and you're thinking, oh. Alison Bentley, guest [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=814): > But what you'll find is that over that week of getting up early every morning, you'll get back into the right, going to sleep at the right time zone, except there's a bunch of your classmates who don't. Peter, guest [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=823): > Yeah. Alison Bentley, guest [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=823): > Okay, and you know them, that they can only fall asleep at one, two o'clock in the morning. Yes. And they're also only waking up in second break. They're super grumpy in the morning. They're not hungry. They're, they're hangry, very hangry. Peter, guest [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=835): > No, no social interaction. You do not speak to them. Alison Bentley, guest [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=837): > You just know not to Speak to them that they are the people that you speak to at one o'clock in the morning because they're still awake. And that's delayed sleep phase syndrome, and that's pushed them, they're now much closer to New York than they are to South African time. Okay? So they're sleeping on that kind of time. And so their sleep is really short. And so obviously if their, if their natural sleep has moved out into two o'clock in the morning, let's say that's where they, that can actually fall asleep, then trying to fall asleep at ten o'clock is four hours too early. So it's equivalent to if your normal sleep time is half past nine, which it is, you trying to fall asleep at half past five in the afternoon. Doesn't work. It's not going to work, ever. ### Passage: How restless legs medication calms the nervous system [24:57-26:45, 388 words] Note (AI): Answers Peter's worry about becoming dependent by explaining nerve-generated pain and how the treatment brings an overactive spinal cord back to normal. Alison Bentley, guest [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1497): > This medication is different. So this medication is actually a medication for pain, but a specific type of pain. So there's two different types of pain. So you're going to learn all about pain tonight as well, even if you didn't want to. The pain we remember is the pain receptors, you know, that, and you take anti-inflammatories, and you take codeine, and you take those kind of things for that kind of pain. But there's a type of pain that gets created within the nervous system itself. So for example, if you slip a disc, and the disc comes out and hits the spinal cord like that, super painful. There's not a single pain receptor there except in the muscles, okay? But in the spinal cord and brain, there's no pain receptors. I'm sure you've seen those cool videos of people doing surgery on the brain when people are awake. So there are no pain receptors in the brain itself and in, or in the spinal cord. So if the brain is perceiving pain because the nerves are overactive, That's why the pain is being created. So it's not a pain receptor thing, doesn't respond to anti-inflammatories, doesn't respond to the usual pain stuff, but it responds to these particular compounds. These compounds are designed to take a hyperactive part of the nervous system and calm it down. It's not going to take normal and make it dull, it's just going to take hyperactive and make it normal. Pull the system down a bit. So it's getting it down to a state of normal, and so we use these medications, and these are aimed at the spinal cord, where the spinal cord is hyperactive, doing this little circuit, ping, ping, and say, shh, calm down. Okay. So it calms down, and so the legs stop. If the legs stop, your natural sleep can happen. Does that make sense? So you don't need to take something for sleep, because the natural sleep should be able to happen. You're doing everything right as far as the sleep hygiene is concerned, but if you have restless legs, color doesn't work. You cannot beat restless legs. I mean, if it's there, it's a neurological thing, you can't beat it. But if you treat it, then all the sleep hygiene stuff works. ### Passage: Sleep disorders exaggerating ADHD symptoms [36:28-38:31, 425 words] Note (AI): The host and Dr Bentley discuss whether treating the sleep disorder could allow lower ADHD doses. She also reframes the end-of-day crash as sleep debt. Gershom Aitchison, host [36:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2188): > Let's say that Peter gets treated for the restless leg so that he is sleeping better. And what it feels like for him to have a good night's sleep and to be rested and attentive during the day, if that allows some of his meds to be reduced for the ADHD, because how much of the inattentiveness is he's legitimately got ADHD, but also to what degree is it, is it stimulated more because he is, he's sleep deprived, as it were. So it would be interesting to see if that, where that journey goes, and the good news is that Peter's old enough to start actually realizing what that looks and feels like, because he's articulating very well what's going on in his body, and it's, it's good to be able to do that. Alison Bentley, guest [37:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2229): > Yeah, I'm certainly not disputing the fact that ADHD exists. I'm not. I'm not saying that every kid with ADHD has a sleep disorder. I'm not saying that, because ADHD is a thing, but what happens is the sleep disorder exaggerates the symptoms of ADHD during the day. And so I have a bunch of patients, adults as well, who are on a lot of ADHD medication during the day, and then when we look at their sleep and we go, actually, there's a sleep Problem here and we treat that, then there's less ADHD medication. Because I can tell you that if you are trying to treat a sleep disorder, the symptoms of a sleep disorder with the methylphenidates and the Ritalins, et cetera, you're going to lose, because the doses have to be really, really high to do that. Whereas if you treat that, then this becomes manageable. So it's not about taking away the ADHD completely. I mean, it would be great if we did that, but I'm just saying it's not, it's not necessarily about that. It's about taking away something that, that should be treated differently. Yes. And then using a smaller amount, because as you said, you kind of want to get off the meds, but even pulling back on the meds and you go, actually, now they work a whole lot better, and I feel more in control because there's not this crash at the end of the day. Because part of that crash, I think, is the fact that you've got the sleep pressure. You're in sleep debt when you start the day, you're not slept well. The concerta's hiding that for the day, and then it comes back with a vengeance. ### Passage: Treating delayed sleep phase step by step [46:16-48:20, 499 words] Note (AI): A practical protocol for resetting a shifted body clock, with guidance to parents on limiting holiday sleep-ins. Alison Bentley, guest [46:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2776): > In my young man today, we're going to just keep him going through the day. But usually when it's sitting in around two o'clock in the morning, we use melatonin to, to move them back by an hour at a time. So it's a relatively slow process. Takes a week or so. So if we, if it's two o'clock, then we go right, let's make bedtime at one. So if bedtime is at one, then we give melatonin an hour and a half beforehand, and quite a big dose, and chew it so that, because it's prolonged release, chew it so it's fast release, so we get a big punch of melatonin. Have a very strict wake-up time in the morning, and in the morning, lots of light. So we do that for a couple of days, and then we go, once you're there, then we move you another hour, and then we move you another hour, and it works extremely well. However, it's a really strict routine, and we know what teenage boys are like with strict routines. Like, we go, I really like that, and you have to do this. Like, you just have to get it done. Once you're in the right time zone, then we keep you on melatonin for a little bit longer, and hope you take it off, and ban use from staying up late at night, and then you need to keep it there. So it's treatable. It's tricky to get it right, and often we get it right, and then December holidays hit, and they're right there again, and we have to do it again. So we often have to do it a couple of times. The good news is that work or varsity generally keeps them in the time zone after that, and having children is a dead cert to, like, stop that drift. The problem with school is not the school. The school is keeping them on track. It's the holidays. That's the problem. They are adrift in the holidays, and then they've got to come back. So, you know, I don't want to say that you've got to wake up at four o'clock. I Peter, guest [47:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2866): > didn't Alison Bentley, guest [47:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2867): > know that was coming. It's not that. It's just don't let it go too far. So yes, sleep in in the holidays, but don't sleep till eleven every day. Sleep Gershom Aitchison, host [47:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2875): > until seven. Alison Bentley, guest [47:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2876): > Sleep till seven, or yes, do that. That's fine. So I think the message is to parents, like, I know you kind of want to let your kids have a good holiday, but there's a limit to sleeping in in the morning, because it can create a real problem, which then has to be treated deliberately. And if it's not, if you get stuck at two o'clock in the morning, it's not going to just kick itself back. You've got to treat it. I see patients in their thirties and forties where it's never been treated, and they still have it. ### Passage: Telling restless legs apart from self-soothing [49:57-52:38, 606 words] Note (AI): Gives parents concrete tests and circumstantial signs, such as the stop-moving test, overnight flights, pillows between the legs and painkillers, for spotting restless legs. Alison Bentley, guest [49:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2997): > I think the important thing is that if you see somebody doing it and you're concerned about it, you say to them, stop doing it. Now what happens in your head? Because if it's just self-soothing, they go, no, it's just hard to fall asleep unless I do that. But if they have restless legs, they go, please let me move, like it, it feels awful, like I have to move, I have to move. That's different. So if it's that they have to move, then that fulfills what we call the diagnostic criteria for restless legs, which is an urge to move your legs. You have that urge. And you hide it because you move all the time. So if you move all the time, you don't feel it. And it becomes such a habit that you don't realize why you're doing it. So I also have patients who like jig their legs. You know how you just like bounce your, bounce your leg. And they go, but isn't that like a symptom of anxiety or a symptom of ADHD? So I go, well, stop jiggling now. Stop jiggling now. And they stop and I go, what's happening in your head? And they're going, please let me move. Please let me move. I go, that's not anxiety. That's not ADHD. That's restless legs. Okay, it's different. So it's, there's a different reason why you're doing it. And so that's what we would interrogate is exactly why that's happening. There's also circumstan, what I call circumstantial evidence for restless legs. So if you're not clear about it. So it is about that, are you, do you look for other sensations to try and be able to calm your legs down? So that pressure, that massage, that cold, that hot. What if I said to you, you're booked on an overnight flight and you're in the middle seat? Like, what goes through your head? And if you have restless legs, instant panic. Like, please don't make me do that. And I can tell you who has restless legs by being in a plane overnight, and I go, you, you, you all have restless legs. Why? Because you're walking around the plane at night. Why are you doing that? Why are you not sleeping? But I, they can't sit still, so they will always book an aisle seat so that they can get up and walk. Then there's things like sleeping with a pillow between your legs or sleeping with a duvet between your legs. Why? Because your legs are sensitive, and they're touching, them touching each other doesn't feel good. So we put something between the legs so that you can be able to fall asleep. Sleeping in strange positions. So kids sleep with their legs bent, their feet up the wall, like that, because it feels better. You know, so they sleep in strange positions. Being able to sleep on a, on a painkiller instead of a sleeping tablet. So a painkiller works better than a sleeping tablet, and that's codeine, which is in like the Gen Pain, Still Pain, so those kind of painkillers, works for restless legs. And so patients say, yeah, actually, if I take a gin pain, I sleep a whole lot better, whereas if I try and take a sleeping tablet, that doesn't work. So those are all kinds of go, that's not normal, is it? Right, to have those kind of things happen, but they can be seen to be normal because people have always done that. And you go, just because you've always done it doesn't mean it's normal. ### Quotes > "Sleep is a struggle for us kids on ADHD meds. It's hard." >, Peter, guest · [05:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=325) > "It's like the way to describe it, imagine you have a, a little brother that just never stops talking." >, Peter, guest · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=400) > "So kids who have restless legs describe it as a Coca-Cola in their veins, like there's a popping, that their muscles are pulling and stretching on their own, that they have ants in their bones." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [18:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1084) > "It's like someone's pulling a slingshot. Yeah. You just gotta, gotta go." >, Peter, guest · [18:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1104) > "So nobody shames a diabetic because they need to take insulin, right? But apparently if you take a sleeping tablet, that's a no-no." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1469) > "Like, really, you're not a paramedic. You're not on call. Like try sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1758) > "So, you know, it's actually a little bit frightening that we get to this point where we just happen to be here tonight participating, and this comes to the fore." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2404) > "Everything gets worse when you don't have sleep. Perhaps sleep is the thing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2435) > "it boils down to that what sleep is for is to service this car. And you should wake up in the morning fully serviced, like you're good to go, right?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · [40:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2454) > "Well, now we know how it kills you, right? And people are still not taking it seriously." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [41:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2475) > "And you go, just because you've always done it doesn't mean it's normal." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [52:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3156) > "It is valuable information, because an informed community is one that can make better decisions for our kids." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [53:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3233) ### Claims > "I'm a GP by training, but I've only ever done sleep medicine. So I see patients from six months old to 98 or wherever the end is, and all kinds of sleep disorders." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep medicine practice · [00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=26) > "Particular interest in children's sleep, because I think children get diagnosed with other disorders without a Single question about their sleep and, and looking at how sleep interacts with other disorders." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Children's sleep · [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=53) > "I am a student at Edu Inc. I am in grade eleven, and I've been attending for three years. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of four years old, and I've struggled with my sleep habit throughout all my life, really." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=76) > "No parent makes decisions about medication and how they manage this journey of ADHD with their children with ill intent. They do so with the best intent." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and ADHD · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=152) > "I've been a restless sleeper, very much either I can't fall asleep or I'll fall asleep, but it's very up and down." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=188) > "But I've learned to combat that with certain methods, such as exercising good sleep hygiene via not using your screens before bedtime, often winding down with your family, reading, things like that." >, Peter, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and screens · [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=209) > "I've gone and resorted to things that are rather not great, especially at my age to resort to, such as, cannabis and alcohol, and in the long term, it does affect your relationships with your family, with your school, friends." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=223) > "That massive drop, it builds throughout the week and then towards the end of the week, you start feeling groggy in the mornings when you wake up. and overall does impact your, attention span a hundred percent." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=298) > "you're in a state of tunnel vision the entire day. You, you can just look afar. There's no relaxation. You're almost tense." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=334) > "Yeah, and then I'll usually turn up to me getting up and making food, possibly putting on, an audio book. Or something like that, and eventually leads into me getting to sleep at about two o'clock in the morning." >, Peter, guest · topic: Falling asleep · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=418) > "All of those meds, whether they're, they're, the long-acting medication, the long-acting stimulants, work for about eight hours, okay? There's one that works for about ten hours, but if you're taking it at six in the morning, it's gone by the time you go to bed, okay? So it's not the meds." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=485) > "part of the problem is because sleep is an incredibly passive process. Falling asleep, you just gotta be sleepy, and you just have to let go." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Falling asleep · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=504) > "And I've, I've been like that all my life. my mom used to deal, deal with it when I was in bed. She called me a kicker. That was, that was her name for it. She would wake up with bruises on her legs." >, Peter, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=592) > "restless legs is one of those things that is much more common in patients who have ADHD, like double the prevalence that it is in people who don't have ADHD." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=619) > "So it's one of those things that unless you ask about it specifically, you aren't going to tell anybody because you don't think it's related. More than that, if you've had it for as long as you can remember, you don't know it's abnormal." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=627) > "The other big disorder that can stop you falling asleep is what we call delayed sleep phase syndrome, which is the most common disorder in young men your age. Every young person your age gets a shift of about an hour, so it just becomes a little harder to fall asleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=706) > "So this young man I saw tonight, this afternoon, the first time he, he's really in a bad way, the first time he actually feels sleepy is at seven o'clock in the morning. So he's awake the whole night, and he sleeps from seven till one o'clock, that's where his sleep is right now." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=912) > "The big sleep disorders are sleep apnea and leg movements. Related to restless legs, just looks a little different when you're asleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep disorders · [16:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1002) > "So when we diagnose one person with restless legs, sixty percent chance that someone in the immediate family also has it. Very hereditary." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1150) > "it's never a good, never a good idea that kids sleep for eight hours and wake up feeling like they haven't slept." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep disorders · [21:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1298) > "So the most important idea is you need to be treated for your restless legs. That is the most important thing because it is a biological disorder and the treatment works beautifully." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [23:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1385) > "Because I eventually want to get to a point where I don't have to take all of my meds. I want to become an independent person." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [24:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1442) > "If you have insomnia and you take a sleeping tablet and you sleep well on that sleeping tablet and you function well during the day, you are not addicted. You are as dependent as every other person is on every medication they take." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep medication · [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1456) > "These compounds are designed to take a hyperactive part of the nervous system and calm it down. It's not going to take normal and make it dull, it's just going to take hyperactive and make it normal." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [25:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1555) > "You cannot beat restless legs. I mean, if it's there, it's a neurological thing, you can't beat it. But if you treat it, then all the sleep hygiene stuff works." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1596) > "you cannot study till fourteen minutes past nine and expect to sleep at fifteen minutes past nine." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and screens · [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1615) > "your ability to fall asleep at a certain time depends on melatonin. So I'm sure you've heard of melatonin. That's it. You make it in your brain. But only in dim light." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and screens · [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1642) > "And if I'm really getting to the end of my tether on this argument, I go, are you a paramedic? Are you on call? No, switch off the damn phone." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and screens · [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1740) > "But then your body is paralyzed. So during sleep anyway, your body is relaxed, right? But during REM sleep, it's paralyzed." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Dreams and REM sleep · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1807) > "What is really important is that you shouldn't be waking up often in your dreams. So patients will say to me, I'm exhausted during the day when I wake up in the morning because I had like five dreams last night. Like, that's abnormal." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Dreams and REM sleep · [32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=1956) > "So from being a baby, would wake up every sort of hour, unless he was lying on somebody, and he had, warmth and weight, then he could go for three, four hours." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2053) > "So he's always been a restless sleeper, even before the meds came into play." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [34:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2083) > "And they often go, no, I wasn't on meds actually. I think a lot gets blamed on the meds. Generally, that's what people will say." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2101) > "So what kids with restless legs often do if they share a bed with parents is they put their feet under parents, under the legs, because they can feel that weight. And that pressure stops them feeling the restless legs." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [35:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2133) > "if that allows some of his meds to be reduced for the ADHD, because how much of the inattentiveness is he's legitimately got ADHD, but also to what degree is it, is it stimulated more because he is, he's sleep deprived, as it were." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [36:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2201) > "I'm not saying that every kid with ADHD has a sleep disorder. I'm not saying that, because ADHD is a thing, but what happens is the sleep disorder exaggerates the symptoms of ADHD during the day." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [37:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2233) > "Because I can tell you that if you are trying to treat a sleep disorder, the symptoms of a sleep disorder with the methylphenidates and the Ritalins, et cetera, you're going to lose, because the doses have to be really, really high to do that." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [37:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2257) > "You're in sleep debt when you start the day, you're not slept well. The concerta's hiding that for the day, and then it comes back with a vengeance." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [38:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2303) > "As of recent, I don't take my concerta on the weekend, because I'm old enough now to manage myself in a way where I don't need it." >, Peter, guest · topic: ADHD medication and sleep · [38:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2317) > "And we've consulted various medical professionals over the years, never sleep specialists, but, you know, various therapists, various psychiatrists, and no one has ever explored this or pointed this restless leg syndrome out to us." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2391) > "we teach nutrition, we teach exercise, good healthy habits during the day, but there is no education around how important sleep actually is for your body, for your brain, for relationships, for your general mental state." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sleep education · [40:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2421) > "So, for example, we know that if you don't sleep, your risk of depression is much higher. Lifelong, lifelong risk is much higher. Your immune system is compromised." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [40:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2441) > "All of those big diseases, the diabetes, the cardiac disease, the atrial fibrillation, the depression, the dementia, the liver disease, all of those things that are going to happen should happen in your late sixties, for example, are happening ten years earlier because you're on this path of under-servicing," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2480) > "I'll take it before, just before I have my dinner, and towards by the time I'm nine o'clock, it usually starts to, I usually definitely start to relax and feel a little bit more ready to sleep." >, Peter, guest · topic: Melatonin use · [42:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2538) > "often kids who, who have ADHD do sleep better on melatonin, and the main reason is because they feel a lot sleepier." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin use · [42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2559) > "So melatonin does work, but it's not a fix-all. I mean, it's, you can't just throw melatonin at every kid and go, oh, maybe that'll work." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin use · [43:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2600) > "And it's very safe. You take between two and five milligrams of melatonin at night. They used it as an immune modulator during COVID to try and see if it would stop that cytokine storm." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin use · [44:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2661) > "Peter sleeps better if he has sort of a white noise in the background or an air con running or a fan running." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Falling asleep · [44:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2687) > "So if bedtime is at one, then we give melatonin an hour and a half beforehand, and quite a big dose, and chew it so that, because it's prolonged release, chew it so it's fast release, so we get a big punch of melatonin. Have a very strict wake-up time in the morning, and in the morning, lots of light." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2793) > "The problem with school is not the school. The school is keeping them on track. It's the holidays. That's the problem." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [47:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2854) > "So I think the message is to parents, like, I know you kind of want to let your kids have a good holiday, but there's a limit to sleeping in in the morning, because it can create a real problem, which then has to be treated deliberately." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [47:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2879) > "Eight to nine hours would be normal. I think the important thing is if he would sleep from, let's say, eleven till eleven every day. That's not normal, right?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen sleep needs · [48:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2907) > "So what you want to do is be awake for long enough, combine it with that melatonin, all happening at the same time. That's the sweet spot to fall asleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Falling asleep · [49:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=2960) > "So I go, well, stop jiggling now. Stop jiggling now. And they stop and I go, what's happening in your head? And they're going, please let me move. Please let me move. I go, that's not anxiety. That's not ADHD. That's restless legs." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3043) > "What if I said to you, you're booked on an overnight flight and you're in the middle seat? Like, what goes through your head? And if you have restless legs, instant panic." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [51:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3079) > "So a painkiller works better than a sleeping tablet, and that's codeine, which is in like the Gen Pain, Still Pain, so those kind of painkillers, works for restless legs." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [52:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3129) > "So that's one of the techniques that we sometimes teach patients who can't go on medication, we teach them to do, is to distract." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Restless leg syndrome · [52:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1558574_high.mp3#t=3168) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Education Incorporated headmaster, Gershom Aitchison, is a trailblazing educator in South Africa with an unwavering drive for growing young people holistically, as well as the belief in effective teacher training and effective pedagogical implementation. In this third episode in the ADHD and Sleep series, you'll hear the heartfelt and eye-opening story of Peter, a teenager navigating the challenges of ADHD and restless sleep. In this intimate fireside chat, Peter courageously shares his struggles with medication crashes, racing thoughts, and the relentless urge to move, while Dr. Alison Bentley, a sleep medicine expert, unveils the hidden impact of Restless Leg Syndrome and sleep disorders on his life. Joined by Peter’s mom, they explore how sleepless nights shape his days, relationships, and dreams. This poignant conversation uncovers the emotional toll of sleep deprivation, the hope of tailored treatments, and the power of understanding a teen’s unique journey. A must-listen for parents, teens, and anyone seeking insight into the profound connection between sleep, ADHD, and well-being. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Sleep and ADHD: The link you cannot ignore - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-04-14-sleep-and-adhd-the-link-you/ - Date: 2025-04-14 (as at 2025-04-14) - Guest: Alison Bentley - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Sleep and ADHD, Delayed sleep phase syndrome, Melatonin and sleep medication, Sleep apnea and restless legs, Teenage sleep and school, Caffeine, screens and routines, Parenting and teen agency - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1546359?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Alison Bentley - sleep expert · Restonic Essential Sleep Clinic · Parktown - GP by training with a special interest in sleep. Did a PhD in restless leg syndrome, runs a private practice in sleep and set up the Restonic Essential Sleep Clinic with Restonic. In their own words: > "I'm a GP by training, but I've had a special interest in sleep ever since I began." [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=117) > "So I've kind of done a private practice in sleep. I've kind of gone back to do research and got my PhD in restless leg syndrome, and then, then went back into practice, and more recently set up, the Restonic Essential Sleep Clinic with Restonic." [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=140) > "So I see patients from six months old, to can't get them to sleep, two patients of eighty, and everything in between, and every single sleep disorder," [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=207) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In a fireside chat hosted by Gershom Aitchison, sleep physician Dr Alison Bentley examines how sleep problems overlap with, and worsen, ADHD in children and teenagers. Educational psychologists and school leaders put questions to her. She covers delayed sleep phase in teenagers, caffeine, light and melatonin, and sleeping tablets and their misuse. She also discusses restless legs and sleep apnea, supplements, and how to talk with teenagers about their sleep. Bentley brings a GP's broad view of patients, a PhD in restless leg syndrome and clinical work at the Restonic Essential Sleep Clinic. **Key ideas** - Bentley argues that a detailed sleep history should come before any ADHD medication. She does not claim that sleep problems cause all ADHD, but says they make it much worse. ([20:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1218) [20:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1220) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1229)) - Bentley notes that the medications used to keep narcolepsy patients awake are also used to focus children. She asks whether these children are actually sleeping. ([03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=207) [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=261) [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=304)) - Bentley describes teenagers with delayed sleep phase as effectively jet-lagged. They are non-functional in early lessons, and the condition can be diagnosed with a few questions. ([11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=704) [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=719) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=770) [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=775) [14:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=841)) - Bentley says medication fails when a child is not sleepy. Sleeping tablets work best on the edge of sleep, and taking them too early does not work. ([15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=913) [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2049) [35:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2104)) - Bentley says every sleep disorder, including restless legs and apnea, is more common in children with ADHD, and that these disorders are often missed because nobody asks about them. ([27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1655) [37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2258) [37:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2275) [64:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3863)) - Bentley explains melatonin as a subtle rhythm hormone rather than a knockout pill. She calls it safe as a replacement in neurodivergent children, with unknown effects from long-term excess. ([50:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3009) [53:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3191) [55:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3305) [59:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3571)) - Bentley argues that 'normal' sleep is a social construct. Biphasic sleep lasted for millennia, and larks and owls function best on their own rhythms. ([40:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2406) [41:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2461) [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2525) [45:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2724)) - The host argues that schools teach nutrition and exercise but not sleep, and that honest conversations giving teenagers agency are central. ([82:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4938) [82:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4957)) **Bentley's delayed sleep phase shift protocol** ([55:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3305) [56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3361) [56:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3408)) 1. Ask when the teenager naturally feels sleepy, for example one o'clock. 2. Aim to move sleep only about an hour earlier, for example to twelve. 3. Take melatonin about an hour and a half before the target time: two tablets, chewed. 4. Wake seven hours later and get plenty of morning light, without sunglasses. 5. Hold each new time for four days, sometimes adding a sleeping tablet, then move another hour. 6. Keep melatonin going for three to six months, then withdraw it. **Lessons** - Bentley advises parents and professionals to ask children directly whether they are sleepy at bedtime and when they do feel sleepy, before assuming ADHD or depression. ([14:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=841) [33:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1986) [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1999)) - Bentley says caffeine can affect sleep for about six hours and feeds a cycle of poor sleep and more caffeine. Removing it makes more sense than medicating around it. ([21:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1300) [26:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1569) [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2172)) - Bentley recommends dim light and real downtime before bed, because melatonin needs dim light and working right up to lights-out prevents sleepiness. ([22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1334) [24:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1455)) - Bentley says snoring in children is not normal and suggests possible apnea. Removing tonsils and adenoids has a high cure rate. ([63:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3806) [64:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3863)) - Bentley tells parents to enforce bedtime as a parent rather than a friend, arguing that the bedtime fight reduces fights the next day. ([28:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1700) [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2350) [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2350)) **Who it's for:** Parents of children or teenagers with ADHD, autism or sleep difficulties, as well as teachers, school leaders, educational psychologists and clinicians. It suits anyone deciding whether daytime inattention, anxiety or low mood might be driven by poor sleep. **Facts stated in the episode** - Bentley says the literature puts the effects of caffeine at about six hours. ([21:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1300)) - Bentley cites data that twenty-three percent of South African adults have moderate to severe sleep apnea. ([62:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3750)) - Bentley says removing tonsils and adenoids has a ninety percent cure rate for apnea in children. ([63:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3806)) - Bentley says forty percent of women with sleep apnea have no traditional symptom. ([69:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4150)) - On the STOP-BANG screen, Bentley says five out of eight criteria indicates an 80% chance of apnea. ([69:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4164)) - Bentley says melatonin was available over the counter until about eight years ago, when it was taken off the shelves. ([58:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3481)) - Bentley says people coming off cannabis have forty-five days of insomnia. ([73:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4431)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can poor sleep look like ADHD in children?** A: Bentley says a bad night's sleep causes an attention deficit the next day. She argues ADHD is made much worse by sleep problems, though not all ADHD is caused by them. The panellist S5 adds that caffeine, devices and late nights can produce ADHD-like symptoms in teenagers. ([05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=333) [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1176) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1229)) **Q: Why can't my teenager fall asleep before 1 or 2am?** A: Bentley describes delayed sleep phase: teenagers' sleepiness drifts later, and holidays can push it several hours out. Waking at half past six then feels like waking at four in the morning, which amounts to jet lag. ([11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=704) [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=719)) **Q: Why doesn't my child's sleeping tablet or melatonin work?** A: Bentley says no medication works if you are not sleepy. Taking tablets at seven when natural sleepiness comes much later fails, and melatonin only has a subtle effect close to your natural rhythm. ([15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=913) [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2049) [55:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3305)) **Q: Is melatonin safe for children?** A: Bentley calls melatonin one of the safest drugs and says neurodivergent children often lack it, so replacing it makes sense. She cautions that there are no studies on taking too much for years. ([50:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3009) [53:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3191) [59:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3571)) **Q: Are sleeping tablets addictive?** A: Bentley says sleeping tablets on their own are not addictive in the clinical sense. Most users take low doses and function well, but using them to come down from caffeine is not appropriate. ([35:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2104) [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2135) [35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2148) [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2172)) **Q: Should kids snore?** A: Bentley says no child should snore. Snoring children likely have some apnea, which fragments their sleep and leaves them tired, and removing tonsils and adenoids has about a ninety percent cure rate. ([63:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3806) [64:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3863)) **Q: Do supplements like GABA, magnesium or CBD help sleep?** A: Bentley says the evidence supports only magnesium. CBD does not work for insomnia itself but can help anxiety or pain. ([72:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4367) [74:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4458)) **Q: How can a teenager's sleep be shifted earlier?** A: Bentley moves sleep about an hour earlier using chewed melatonin before the target time and bright morning light. She repeats this every four days, then keeps melatonin for some months before stopping it. ([56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3361) [56:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3408)) **Q: Is waking in the middle of the night abnormal?** A: Bentley explains that biphasic sleep, with a waking period in the night, was normal for millennia. She says solid eight-hour sleep is a recent social norm. ([41:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2461) [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2525)) ### Passage: Why a sleep doctor questions ADHD medication [03:27-05:12, 316 words] Note (AI): Bentley sets out her practice and the observation behind the episode: stimulants used for narcolepsy are also used to focus children, which raises the question of whether these children are sleeping. Alison Bentley, guest [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=207): > So I see patients from six months old, to can't get them to sleep, two patients of eighty, and everything in between, and every single sleep disorder, I learned very quickly that I couldn't just do sleep apnea, because that's the big business in, in sleep medicine, because doctors sat there and went, is the sleep apnea, will Alison see them? So I went, I'll see anything. So that pretty much, so I do see patients with insomnia, sleep apnea, narcolepsy, the whole bang shoot. So it's, it's always interesting because I never know who's going to walk through the door. and, and I have a special interest in children's sleep because I think it's, it's just assumed that children sleep well. Like, that's just assumed. Like, they sleep well, right? And I kind of go, no, they don't, actually. If you look at the data, the prevalence of sleep disorders is pretty much the same no matter what age you are, and what, particularly when it comes to ADHD, Really many years ago, kind of went, hang on a second, like we use the same medications to treat narcolepsy to keep people awake as we do to keep children focused. Like, that's odd, isn't it? Like, are we having a conversation about this? Is there any sense that we're kind of going, are these children actually sleeping? And that's why the medication works, because it's waking them up. So that's where my interest comes in, and I've done a couple of talks to neurologists and pediatricians, et cetera, on ADHD and sleep and how, how it links together, but it's just not kind of seen, the, the, the sleep problems that Kids with ADHD have, partly because I think doctors only see people when they're awake. They don't think about what's happening at night and how that contributes to what they're seeing during the day. ### Passage: Teen jet lag and the three-question diagnosis [11:44-14:16, 541 words] Note (AI): Explains how holiday habits push teenagers into a delayed sleep phase and why early school starts leave them non-functional. It also gives the simple questions that identify the problem. Alison Bentley, guest [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=704): > And then holidays, I mean, we know teenage boys are staying up gaming till two in the morning. Parents are going, shame, it's the holiday, let them sleep till ten eleven in the morning. And then school starts again, and they're stuck on another time zone. I mean, like really out. I mean, there's the one hour out, that's manageable. But when you're four hours out of the normal time zone, and you only feel sleepy at two o'clock in the morning, and you can only fall asleep at two, and then waking up at half past six is equivalent to being woken up at four o'clock in the morning, and you feel awful. So parents are battling to get their kids out of bed in the morning, massive fights in the family to get this child out of bed. They're tired, but more than being tired, they are feel physically ill. So their blood, I mean, at four o'clock in the morning, your blood pressure's low, your pulse rate is low, your gut is inactive, you are, should be asleep, like your whole body. So you essentially have jet lag. So they're waking up with jet lag, they're not hungry, they don't eat breakfast, and they're coming to school, and for the next three hours or until their natural wake-up time, which could be ten, eleven o'clock in the morning, that whole period, they are asleep. Functionally, they are asleep. They are, they are awake, but they are non-functional. And so, you know, and that's often when, when schools go, no, math's first period, because that's when you're awake. Oh, no, they're not. Like, routinely, they're not awake at eight o'clock in the morning. So the sleepy kid is, is often, and in teenagers, that's the major problem that we have, is delayed sleep phase. So they are running three or four hours of, of sleep a night, and, and when you talk to them, and, and what annoys me a little bit is I feel like I've spoken about this problem so many times to doctors. That I can't go, this is a big problem, right? You need to see it. And so many times I'm seeing patients and young patients who are really, really battling. And I'm asking them questions about, so are you sleepy when you go to bed at ten o'clock? And they go, not at all. And I go, well, when are you sleepy? And they go, one, two o'clock in the morning. So I go, okay, so if you do fall asleep at one, two o'clock in the morning, how long can you sleep for? They go, oh, I can sleep to eleven in the morning, no problem. And I go, so if I told you that school was going to start at midday, kra, midday, would you have a sleep problem? And they go, no, I'd be fine. Okay. It is such an easy di- it's just such an easy thing to diagnose because it's three questions, right? It's not, it's not high fun. You don't need sleep studies. You don't need blood tests. You don't need anything. It's about just talking to the kid and saying, what is happening with your sleepiness? ### Passage: Three types of people who take sleeping tablets [35:04-36:29, 277 words] Note (AI): A clear framing of sleeping-tablet use and addiction that separates appropriate use from misuse. It is useful for parents worried about medication. Alison Bentley, guest [35:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2104): > Well, the deal is that there are three types of people who take sleeping tablets. They're the addicts, and they're addicts. And the sleeping tablets are the least of their problems, okay? They'll take fifteen sleeping tablets a day, but that's because they can't come down from their tick and their cat and their whatever else they're taking, but the sleeping tablets are not the problem. So there are the addicts. Then there are the problem children, like these ones, where it don't, they don't work. The sleeping tablets are not working, no matter what they try, no matter what combinations, how high they go, they just don't work. The majority of people who take sleeping tablets are taking low doses, sleeping very well, functioning very well during the day, and they are fine, and we should leave them alone, okay? Because they're fine. But these other two groups we need to worry about, okay? Sleeping tablets on their own are not Addictive. They're not heroin, for goodness sake. They're like, and people generally are not addicted. Like, addiction has a very specific definition. You know, there's a compulsive drug seeking. There is a preference of the drug over job, school, life. You'll let your life fall apart for that drug. That's not your average person who takes a sleeping tablet, for heaven's sake. So we need to calm down about sleeping tablets. They may be the correct thing to use in the correct circumstances, but your teenager that is using them because they're coming down, trying to come off a caffeine high, not appropriate. Like, could we take away the caffeine? Because that makes more sense. ### Passage: Biphasic sleep and what counts as normal [41:01-43:01, 435 words] Note (AI): The historical argument that solid eight-hour sleep is a recent social construct, and that waking in the middle of the night can be normal. Alison Bentley, guest [41:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2461): > So I'm going to take you back to the 1500s in England, okay? The literature we have about the 1500s is that you went to work, which was always in the fields, cause that's what everybody did, right? Then you would come home, you would wash, you would have like English tea, tea and a sandwich, and you'd go to sleep because it's, you're tired. So you'd sleep, go to sleep at seven and you would, and it's dark, okay? So you'd go to sleep at seven and you'd wake up at eleven. Everyone would wake up at eleven. The whole community was awake between eleven and two. Put the fires on, have dinner, have a habitual time, and then go back to sleep at about two o'clock in the morning. So sleep was biphasic to these two pieces. Because there's a lot of literature about it's easier to conceive children at midnight, God hears prayers at midnight, and we're going, who the hell's awake at midnight, you know, for all of this stuff to happen. Well, the answer was everybody was awake. And it's an interesting concept, as in the conversations that people would have after you've had four hours of sleep, after your busy day, would be very different to the way we do it, where we're having conversations at the end of our busy day, right, when we're tired, okay? So biphasic sleep was a thing for millennia, honestly millennia, right? As long as humans have been humans, we've had this biphasic sleep because it just made sense. When we got control of light, we shifted that first phase to touch the second phase, and so we have these two phases now sitting over here. If you extend the time that you spend in bed, it splits at exactly that point. So three hours into your sleep, that's where it splits. So people have insomnia who are going to bed too early, will say they sleep for three hours and they wake up and they've got two hours awake in the middle of the night. And then they sleep for another couple of hours. And I go, well, you know, in fifteen hundreds, that would be normal. Okay, that wouldn't, but what we do is, because we think that normal is the solid eight hours of sleep, it's not solid to begin with, but that solid eight hours of sleep is normal. Okay, well, it's only been normal for about five hundred years. Okay, the other three thousand years or seven thousand years that we've been around, it wasn't normal at all. ### Passage: Treating delayed sleep phase with melatonin and light [56:01-58:01, 466 words] Note (AI): Bentley describes her step-by-step protocol for shifting a teenager's sleep earlier with timed melatonin and morning light, including the timing, the duration and the tapering off. Alison Bentley, guest [56:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3361): > So the delayed sleep phase syndromes, that's what we do with those kids. We go, when's your natural sleepy time? One o'clock. So let's move you to twelve. We can't move you much more than an hour. We move you to twelve. So you're going to take your melatonin at half past ten, and you're going to take two tablets, and you're going to chew them. Why? Because I want to squash your natural melatonin, which is over here. I want that to stop. Move it to here. Let's get you to sleep at twelve. You're going to wake up seven hours later. You're going to have lots of light. And you're going to hate me, and I don't care, because I'm not in your bedroom, and your parent is, okay? But you're going to get up, and you're going to go have breakfast outside, or you're going to go for a walk, or you're going to just open the curtains, or on the drive to school, you're not going to wear sunglasses. That's going to happen, because light is the break for sleep. So pull the sleep with the melatonin in front, and we break it with light. If you're in Scandinavia, you have to go and buy a light box, okay? In South Africa, we have light every morning. We're lucky. And so we do that at twelve o'clock. We do that for four days. Sometimes we add a sleeping tablet to force the sleep there, and then we go, right, another hour, four days, another hour, four days, and then we get them back to where they need to be. So the point of our delayed sleep phase syndrome, it can be treated. Really well. Do teenage boys love routine? No. Do I care? No. Cause that's how what they need to do. And I'd say to the parents, you've got to do this. And often the parents go, and I say to the kids, here's the good news. You can stay up till one o'clock right now. Like, don't even bother trying to fall asleep at ten. And they go, yes. And I go, here's the bad news. It's not going to last. Okay. It's not going to last. You've got to get up in the morning. So enjoy it for now. And we pull you back there and get you back into the right time zone. And then we keep them on melatonin for a while. What's a while? I don't know. Three months, six months. Do I care? No. Kids are sleeping. And then we take away the melatonin. We go, hopefully your own melatonin comes back in the right place now. And then we get them off the melatonin. It's a short term treatment, but it is a treatment. ### Passage: How sleep apnea shows up at night [67:01-69:14, 466 words] Note (AI): Explains the mechanism of apnea and the adrenaline surges it causes, and why night-time anxiety or panic may be a sleep disorder rather than a mood problem. Alison Bentley, guest [67:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4021): > Sleep apnea happens. That, that's what happens in the middle of the night. So often you get a presentation. So I mean, sleep apnea, get it on the same page. So it's a collapse that happens at the back of the throat. So the throat just collapses in on itself. Can't move air. And so your oxygen starts to drift down. At some point, ten seconds later or so, your brain goes, you'd better wake up, otherwise we're gonna die. So you wake up, whole thing opens up, lots of snorting and moving in bed and stuff. And then if everything's exactly the same, you have the same thing again. So, and that can go, I write reports on a weekly basis for people who are doing that seventy times an hour. Okay. So massive numbers. So you, you just multiply that up per hour of sleep. So eight hours of sleep, even at fifty times per hour, that's four hundred times that you get woken up during the night. Now, they will never be aware of all of those wake-ups. They might be aware of one or two of them. They very rarely wake up gasping, like that kind of sense, they very rarely wake up like that, but what they often wake up with is the consequence of that. So that happens, there's this adrenaline surge, and then they wake up with that adrenaline surge. So they often wake up saying, I wake up and my heart is beating, and I feel anxious, and I'm like, hey, what just happened? Like, I feel like I had a panic attack while I was asleep, okay? And I say, yeah, it's the adrenaline surge that happens at the end of the apnea, which, which causes all of the long-term consequences, cardiovascular, metabolic, et cetera, et cetera. So all of those consequences down the road is because of that adrenaline surge, which should not be happening at night while you're asleep. And so you can get those kind of things. You wake up and you go, Mark, I feel awful. Like, why do I feel so just awful? it can be from that. So, I mean, if he has, and again, any, the neurodivergent adults and kids, much more likely to have sleep apnea, restless legs, the whole thing shoot as well. So he's like, if he does have apnea, then, then we've got to look at that as being, that's his symptom, that he wakes up with that. And I don't think you we have any been talking originally like how the different, how sleep apnea can present so differently in, in different people, that in women it doesn't present traditionally at all. Forty percent of women have not a single traditional symptom of sleep apnea. ### Quotes > "It takes a community to grow children." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=56) > "if you have a bad night's sleep, you have an attention deficit the next day. Not the disorder, but an attention deficit." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=335) > "Functionally, they are asleep. They are, they are awake, but they are non-functional." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=770) > "no kid should be put on medication unless you've taken a really good history about their sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [20:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1220) > "Could you please ask the questions about their sleep and see sleep as possibly the thing?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1999) > "Sleeping tablets on their own are not Addictive. They're not heroin, for goodness sake." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2148) > "Mom sitting there, no one's asked. No one's spent the time with this kid and asked them about this kind of stuff." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [37:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2243) > "It is about being a parent, not being your kid's best friend." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2350) > "because light is the break for sleep. So pull the sleep with the melatonin in front, and we break it with light." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [56:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3405) > "the other two thirds of your, of your life depend entirely on what you do in that one third." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [83:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4989) > "the cure to anxiety is control." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [85:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=5125) > "You have to abandon yourself to the forces of sleep, okay? That's the tagline." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [86:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=5172) ### Claims > "You can't medicate in resilience, and you can't medicate in good sleep hygiene and good tech habits and things like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=88) > "I'm a GP by training, but I've had a special interest in sleep ever since I began." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=117) > "So I've kind of done a private practice in sleep. I've kind of gone back to do research and got my PhD in restless leg syndrome, and then, then went back into practice, and more recently set up, the Restonic Essential Sleep Clinic with Restonic." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=140) > "pretty much all the data we use when we speak to patients is derived from Harvard or Europe or Australia, with very few numbers of black patients or African patients in them." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep research in South Africa · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=177) > "So I see patients from six months old, to can't get them to sleep, two patients of eighty, and everything in between, and every single sleep disorder," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Guest background · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=207) > "Really many years ago, kind of went, hang on a second, like we use the same medications to treat narcolepsy to keep people awake as we do to keep children focused. Like, that's odd, isn't it?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=261) > "partly because I think doctors only see people when they're awake. They don't think about what's happening at night and how that contributes to what they're seeing during the day." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=304) > "I mean, all of us know, if you have a bad night's sleep, you have an attention deficit the next day. Not the disorder, but an attention deficit." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=333) > "a lot of the teens that I speak to at the high school, sometimes I don't know how they survive the day, because they're only getting two to three hours of sleep, and this is on a, on a daily basis," >, Cynthia Pattia, intro voice or played clip · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=381) > "There's a saying that is going around saying parents medicate their children when the parent isn't coping, and I think that happens with sleep predominantly." >, Lauren Edmonds, intro voice or played clip · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=448) > "I'm finding more and more in my concessions department that ADHD is very, very under-known by the parents or ill-informed." >, Amy Dews-Gorborn, intro voice or played clip · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=518) > "The whole point of sleep is that you regenerate, restore, kind of whatever's been burnt out during the day, you kind of fix it so that you wake up in the morning with no sleep debt and you can function properly during the day." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep basics · [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=638) > "I think critical to the sleep issue is that there are basic tenets of sleep, and that is that you gotta be sleepy to be able to fall asleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep basics · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=671) > "But when you're four hours out of the normal time zone, and you only feel sleepy at two o'clock in the morning, and you can only fall asleep at two, and then waking up at half past six is equivalent to being woken up at four o'clock in the morning, and you feel awful." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=719) > "And so, you know, and that's often when, when schools go, no, math's first period, because that's when you're awake. Oh, no, they're not. Like, routinely, they're not awake at eight o'clock in the morning." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=775) > "It is such an easy di- it's just such an easy thing to diagnose because it's three questions, right? It's not, it's not high fun. You don't need sleep studies. You don't need blood tests." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [14:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=841) > "Okay, no, no sleeping tablet's gonna work if you take it at seven o'clock at night and your bedtimes are actually at eleven." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=913) > "the first night we're on camp, it's I need my pill to go to sleep at night. But by the second and third night, they're sleeping before the pill happens and they're waking up and things are happening normally." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [16:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=980) > "And I teach, I start teaching the metrics at twelve past nine. And from that point onwards, I've said to them they can eat while I'm busy teaching." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1031) > "All of that in an average, if we can say, normal child can also present as ADHD symptoms because of the usage of that in the late bedtimes." >, Amy Dews-Gorborn, intro voice or played clip · topic: Caffeine, screens and routines · [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1176) > "So I think my, my kind of motto is that no kid should be put on medication unless you've taken a really good history about their sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [20:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1218) > "And I'm not saying that all ADHD is caused by sleep problems, not at all, but I'm saying that ADHD is made a lot worse if you have a sleep problem." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1229) > "But generally the literature would say that the effects of caffeine last six hours. Okay? That's a long time and much longer than you'd think." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Caffeine, screens and routines · [21:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1300) > "But then melatonin, and melatonin only gets produced in dim light. So you need to have this dim light in the evening, and you produce melatonin, and what melatonin does is drop your body temperature," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Caffeine, screens and routines · [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1334) > "So you need to have a downtime. I think as a society, we've lost the concept of a rest, okay, not, so we go work, work, work, come home, have dinner, get children to bed, go to bed ourselves, and there's no rest." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Caffeine, screens and routines · [24:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1455) > "And the particular problem with caffeine is if they are not sleeping well, they use more caffeine, and then they don't sleep well, and then they use more caffeine." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Caffeine, screens and routines · [26:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1569) > "I mean, what Ritalin does, or methylphenidate, what it does, is it increases dopamine levels in the brain. That's what it does. Well, guess what is caused by a drop in dopamine? Restless leg syndrome, which is much higher in kids with ADHD." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1655) > "but the important thing about that is that if you have the fight about bedtime, you theoretically get less fight, less fights the next day on everything else." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Parenting and teen agency · [28:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1700) > "They, they are difficult to do research on because there's so much going on. And because there is no average sixteen-year-old, for example." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1754) > "So the sleep apnea, the restless legs, the delayed sleep phase, the, you know, the, the lights, the caffeine, the homework, the routines, the all of that, all of that has to be taken into account." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1836) > "I have a one particular client, grade nine, fifteen year old. Female, who's in a high achieving school and was diagnosed ADHD, autism last year, and the ADHD was before as well as dyslexia." >, Naledi Mugwena, intro voice or played clip · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [31:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1867) > "It would be fascinating for us to, as, as professionals working with children, to say, if they slept well and were ready for the day, How much stuff disappears, how much anxiety, how much mood swings, how much depression," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [32:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1920) > "So that's why I have a talk for the psychiatrist. It's called, what if it's not depression? Like, could you think outside of your silo?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and ADHD · [33:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=1986) > "No medications work if you're not sleepy. Sleeping tablets work the best if you are sleepy, and you just can't get over that edge." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2049) > "The majority of people who take sleeping tablets are taking low doses, sleeping very well, functioning very well during the day, and they are fine, and we should leave them alone, okay?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [35:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2135) > "So we need to calm down about sleeping tablets. They may be the correct thing to use in the correct circumstances, but your teenager that is using them because they're coming down, trying to come off a caffeine high, not appropriate." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2172) > "The other question you have to ask them is, do you ever have a funny feeling in your legs? Like you got to move them at night, you can't lie still." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2258) > "I diagnose restless legs all the time in patients who have seen umpteen psychiatrists, umpteen doctors about their insomnia, and I say, has anyone asked you about your legs before?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [37:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2275) > "Long before you feel sleepy during the day, you have this massive loss of executive functions. So thinking innovatively, thinking laterally, knowing where you are in a sequence," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep basics · [38:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2319) > "It is about being a parent, not being your kid's best friend. It is about saying to your kid, you're going to bed now." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Parenting and teen agency · [39:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2350) > "And I think we kind of normalize upper class, middle class sleep, okay? Whereas normal is actually not that at all." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: What normal sleep is · [40:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2406) > "So biphasic sleep was a thing for millennia, honestly millennia, right? As long as humans have been humans, we've had this biphasic sleep because it just made sense." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: What normal sleep is · [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2525) > "So he said, right, from now on, your working hours are eleven until eight. He said, the amount of work that got done was astronomically higher than expecting them to work at eight when they were non-functional," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Larks and owls · [45:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2724) > "But I'm an owl, I can't fall asleep before half past eleven. My sweet time, time to wake up in the morning is quarter to seven. I don't see patients before nine," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Larks and owls · [46:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2781) > "So, I mean, they've, they've done studies where they've taken, in the U.S., where they've taken Schools and move them later and shown that everything works better except the parents bitch, because the parents can't get to work on time." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [48:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2890) > "So estrogen, progesterone are all good for sleep. So they're, that's why you get problems in menopause, because you lose, you lose those protective hormones about sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep basics · [49:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=2967) > "But in your neurodivergent kids, we know, we have good data to say that they do not produce good melatonin. They don't. And so the main reason why your autism spectrum disorder kids don't sleep well is because they have low melatonins." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [50:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3009) > "Normal kids, you're now gonna sleep in an ICU environment within, within a week, you couldn't measure their melatonin, it was gone," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [51:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3086) > "You're more likely to be absent if you have a sleep disorder. You're more likely to have what's called presentism, okay?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep basics · [52:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3144) > "So melatonin, melatonin is one of the safest drugs it, it really is that you can possibly take." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [53:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3191) > "What it does is, is replace this biological rhythm that you don't have. It's a subtle effect, okay? You take it here, an hour and a half later, you're going to feel sleepy." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [55:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3305) > "So pull the sleep with the melatonin in front, and we break it with light. If you're in Scandinavia, you have to go and buy a light box, okay? In South Africa, we have light every morning." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Delayed sleep phase syndrome · [56:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3408) > "I think Previously, up until about eight years ago, melatonin was over the counter. You could just get it everywhere. And then it was taken off the shelves." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [58:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3481) > "So the same thing, we have no studies that say what happens if you take too much melatonin for ten years. No studies at all to say what happens." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin and sleep medication · [59:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3571) > "The data on sleep apnea in adults in South Africa, we don't have data in children, data in sleep, sleep apnea in adults, twenty-three percent of the population, the adult population have moderate to severe apnea." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [62:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3750) > "So it's, it's, it's switched around, and so we're not noticing the apnea in kids because the tonsils and adenoids are still there. Ninety percent cure rate if you take out tonsils and adenoids." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [63:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3806) > "And so if kids are snoring, they've likely got some apnea. And if they have apnea, their sleep is being fragmented, they're waking up tired in the morning," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [64:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3863) > "In fact, I believe that people who have delayed sleep phase syndrome choose to do those occupations because they can stay up." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Larks and owls · [65:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3936) > "I was in the hotel industry, I left it because I'm an early bird." >, Naledi Mugwena, intro voice or played clip · topic: Larks and owls · [66:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=3960) > "So they often wake up saying, I wake up and my heart is beating, and I feel anxious, and I'm like, hey, what just happened? Like, I feel like I had a panic attack while I was asleep, okay?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [68:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4088) > "Forty percent of women have not a single traditional symptom of sleep apnea. But they still have sleep apnea." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [69:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4150) > "So we kind of snoring, tiredness, observed apneas, high blood pressure, BMI over 30, age over 50, neck circumference, and gender being male. Five out of eight, 80% chance you have apnea." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep apnea and restless legs · [69:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4164) > "So it's the data, and, and as a doctor, I'm obliged to practice evidence-based medicine and to use only evidence. So the evidence does not support the use of anything except magnesium." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Supplements and substances · [72:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4367) > "one of the big reasons why people keep going back onto cannabis is because when they come off, they have forty-five days of insomnia before it resolves." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Supplements and substances · [73:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4431) > "CBD doesn't work. I mean, so it doesn't work for insomnia itself. Works for anxiety, works for pain." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Supplements and substances · [74:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4458) > "The worst thing you can do if you can't sleep is lie in bed and, and try to sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and anxiety · [76:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4586) > "So I said, so what you're telling me is that the anxiety comes because you can't sleep. And they go, Yeah, actually." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and anxiety · [77:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4625) > "if there's anything for parents to take out of this for professionals is have a conversation, ask the right questions, and teenagers respond very well to honesty." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and teen agency · [82:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4938) > "Schools teach nutrition. We don't teach sleep. Schools teach exercise. We don't teach sleep." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teenage sleep and school · [82:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=4957) > "with the level of anxiety that we're seeing in our society, it's, you know, for me, I say to the kids, the cure to anxiety is control." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sleep and anxiety · [85:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=5121) > "And the really tricky thing about sleep is you can't control it at all. It's an incredibly passive activity." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and anxiety · [86:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1546359_high.mp3#t=5160) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Dive into this riveting episode where Dr. Alison Bentley, a sleep expert, unravels the connection between sleep and ADHD in kids and teens. You may be surprised to learn how sleep problems can mirror ADHD symptoms, leading to misdiagnoses and missed opportunities for real solutions. From the science of delayed sleep phase syndrome to the impact of caffeine, screens, and school schedules, this episode will change how you view your child’s focus, mood, and energy. It’s a wake-up call for parents, teachers, and anyone who cares about childrens' well-being. But it’s not all challenges, this episode is packed with actionable advice to transform sleep and unlock potential. Dr. Bentley shares expert strategies for building effective bedtime routines, using melatonin correctly, and catching sleep disorders early. With insights from educational psychologists and school leaders, you’ll get a front-row seat to real-world tips that work. Tune in to discover how prioritizing sleep can boost resilience, sharpen focus, and set kids up for success, don’t miss this game-changer! Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Teen Sleep Secrets: Unlocking the Power of Sleep - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2025-01-27-teen-sleep-secrets-unlocking-the-power/ - Date: 2025-01-27 (as at 2025-01-27) - Guest: Alison Bentley, Amy Dewes-Goulborn - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Teen circadian shift, Napping, Sleep hygiene and routine, Technology and melatonin, Sleep and learning, Insomnia and anxiety, Sleep and long-term health, Pets and sleep - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1521635 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Alison Bentley - Restonic Ezintsha Sleep Clinic - Presents the Sleep Health Channel podcast on the power of sleep. She says her job as a doctor is to practice evidence-based medicine, and that she sees many teenagers with sleep problems after the December holidays. In their own words: > "so my, my backstory is always that I will come as a doctor. My job is to practice evidence-based medicine, and so I will always give you the evidence that we have from research rather than just what's out there as, as a thing." [65:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3905) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Amy Dewes-Goulborn - registered counselor · Bryanston High School - Registered counselor at Bryanston High School who advises teenagers on napping, bedtime routines and phone use at night. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Sleep physician Dr. Alison Bentley answers questions from school counselor Amy Dewes-Goulborn and Edu Inc headmaster Gershom Aitchison about teenage sleep. They cover napping, how much sleep teenagers need, and the biological delay in sleep timing during adolescence. They also discuss screens and melatonin, melatonin supplements, and the link between sleep and memory. Other topics are insomnia and anxiety, caffeine, long-term health risks, pets in the bed and age-related changes. Bentley frames her answers as evidence-based and offers practical routines for parents and teenagers. **Key ideas** - Bentley says every teenager's sleep shifts about an hour later around age 14 to 16. Late holiday nights can push this into delayed sleep phase syndrome, with only four hours of sleep on school nights. ([08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=480) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=606) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=637)) - Bentley argues that a regular wake-up time, including on weekends, controls sleep timing better than a regular bedtime. ([12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=765) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=793)) - Bentley explains that melatonin is produced only in dim light and takes about 90 minutes to bring sleepiness. Bright screens held close to the face therefore delay sleep. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1095) [18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1117) [19:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1152)) - Bentley calls melatonin very safe but not a sleeping tablet. It is useful for some children, especially on the autism spectrum, and does not work once insomnia sets in. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1274) [22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1329) [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1344)) - Bentley says sleep hardwires memories. Studying while sleepy takes in less, so all-nighters reduce what students can recall. ([44:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2656) [44:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2668) [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2697)) - Bentley compares sleep to servicing a car: chronic under-sleeping raises the risk of infection, weight gain, depression and dementia. ([28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1706) [28:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1717) [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1727) [30:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1811) [31:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1876) [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1898)) - Bentley argues that anxiety about sleep sustains long-term insomnia. Sleeping tablets do not treat that anxiety, whereas CBTI does. ([42:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2554) [43:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2630) [50:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3053)) **Bentley's evening wind-down schedule** ([55:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3304) [55:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3330)) 1. An hour and a half before bed, turn screens down and reduce brightness. 2. Try to stay off social media. 3. Half an hour before bed, do something that disconnects you: the me time. 4. Get into bed about 15 minutes before you want to fall asleep. 5. Distract your head if needed so you can feel the sleepiness and go with it. **Lessons** - Bentley advises keeping the wake-up time close to the school-day time on weekends, for example seven instead of six, so teenagers do not drift later. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=793)) - Amy recommends a family basket in another room where phones go on silent an hour before bed, and says adults should join in. ([16:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=980) [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1005)) - Bentley recommends studying in blocks of an hour and a half with thirty-minute naps between them, so the learning is banked by sleep. ([46:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2810) [47:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2834)) - Bentley warns that caffeine lasts about six hours, and says energy drinks should be treated as drugs. ([48:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2938)) - Bentley suggests asking whether a teenager would still have a sleep problem if they could sleep in, before adding more medication. ([26:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1607)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers, high school teachers and counselors, and teenagers themselves who struggle with late bedtimes, morning tiredness, phones at night, exam studying or questions about melatonin. **Facts stated in the episode** - Bentley says US high schools that moved start times an hour later saw improvements in behavior and marks, but the change never lasted. ([08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=532)) - Bentley says teenagers who sleep poorly and are physically inactive are four times more likely to be obese. ([30:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1811)) - Bentley says insomnia carries a ten times higher lifetime risk of depression. ([31:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1876)) - Bentley says untreated sleep apnea brings dementia ten years earlier, and treating it can push dementia back ten years. ([31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1898)) - Bentley cites a 1928 paper, based on two people, showing better recall after sleep. ([44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2697)) - Bentley recalls a Hendrina Power Station shift worker drinking thirty cups of filter coffee a shift. ([49:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2971)) - Bentley says fifty percent of pet owners sleep with their pets on their bed. ([57:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3441)) - Bentley says melatonin was once over-the-counter in South Africa but is now prescription-only. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1274)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How long should a teenager nap for?** A: Amy advises a 90-minute nap to complete a sleep cycle. Bentley says only about ten percent of people can power nap for 15 to 20 minutes. She adds that the best time is early afternoon, and that naps closer to bedtime make falling asleep harder. ([01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=117) [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=226) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=281) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=340)) **Q: How much sleep does a teenager need?** A: Bentley says adults average seven to eight hours, with five percent needing less than six hours and five percent needing nine or more. She says teenagers should get at least seven to eight hours. ([06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=415)) **Q: Why can't my teenager fall asleep early or wake up in the morning?** A: Bentley says teenagers' sleep shifts about an hour later around ages 14 to 16. Late holiday nights can push this further into delayed sleep phase syndrome, so they are not really awake for the first three hours of school. ([08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=480) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=637) [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=731)) **Q: When should teenagers stop using screens before bed?** A: Bentley advises turning screens down an hour to an hour and a half before bed, because melatonin only forms in dim light and takes about 90 minutes to bring sleepiness. She says reading a paper book is fine. ([18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1117) [19:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1152) [20:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1205) [55:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3304)) **Q: Is melatonin safe for teenagers?** A: Bentley says melatonin is very safe and is available on prescription in South Africa. It is not a sleeping tablet: it helps some children, especially on the autism spectrum. She also says children can chew the prolonged-release tablet to avoid next-day sleepiness. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1274) [22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1329) [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1344) [25:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1533)) **Q: Do all-nighters help with exams?** A: Bentley says no: sleepy students take in less, and sleep is what hardwires memories. She recommends 90-minute study blocks separated by thirty-minute naps. ([44:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2668) [46:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2810) [47:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2834)) **Q: What exactly counts as insomnia?** A: Bentley defines insomnia as getting too little sleep for your daytime needs, with a deficit the next day. It can come from trouble falling asleep, waking in the night or waking too early. ([35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2106)) **Q: How is chronic insomnia treated without sleeping pills?** A: Bentley describes CBTI. Patients spend less time in bed, get up if they cannot fall asleep, and return to bed when sleepy. She says sleeping tablets do not manage the anxiety that sustains insomnia. ([43:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2630) [50:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3053)) **Q: Is it bad to sleep with a pet on the bed?** A: Bentley says fifty percent of pet owners do. Dogs and cats sleep in several patches and can wake you. She adds that some anxious children still sleep better with their dog than without it. ([57:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3441) [58:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3482) [60:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3643)) **Q: Why do women struggle more with sleep as they age?** A: Bentley says melatonin is too low by about fifty-five and almost gone by seventy. Women's sleep gets worse at the same time as men put on weight and start snoring. ([62:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3759) [63:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3794)) ### Passage: Power naps, nap timing and bedtime consequences [03:35-06:17, 584 words] Note (AI): Bentley explains who can power nap, why early afternoon is the best nap slot and why late or long naps make falling asleep harder. Alison Bentley, guest [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=215): > The cat naps, or the power naps, as they're, as they're called, the kind of 15, 20 minute naps, it really depends on you as to whether you can do that or not. It's not an automatic that everybody can do it. So when I used to give talks on, you know, to fairly big audiences of people, I'd go, who can power nap here? And it'd be ten percent of my people who can power nap. So it's not an, an automatic that everybody can do it. So you're right. People who can't power nap have to sleep longer to get a benefit of the nap. They have to sleep more than thirty minutes. People who can't power nap do fifteen, twenty minutes, wake up feeling great. Okay. So if you can do that, the fifteen, twenty minutes is much better because it's a short, it's a light sleep. You just have that and, and obviously it takes less time. So you can have a quick sleep and, and you're good to go. Babies are power nappers of note. They can do twenty minutes easily. And, and some children can as well. And really importantly, it's, you can't put everybody in the same box and go, well, everyone can do this, right? No, they can't. They can't. So some people are going to have, find it harder to nap. Some people are going to find it harder to get a short nap. Some people can't get a long nap. And the best time to nap is after lunch. That is definitely. So the two, three o'clock in the afternoon slot. Partly because we're designed to nap, actually, at that period, and every Mediterranean country that has siesta takes advantage of that. So we all have a little dip at about two, three o'clock in the afternoon, based on the body temperature. So our body temperature takes another little dip there. So we all feel something. And how we feel depends on how bad last night was, which is what I was saying about why or do you need a nap. So if you have a good night's sleep, then after lunch, you'll just kind of get this, maybe I shouldn't do this hard project right now. Maybe I should just delete emails because you get a bit of a brain fog. You know you're not functioning well. And then usually after an hour, you're, you're fine to go. But if you've had a bad night, you can literally fall asleep doing anything at that point in time. So that is the best time to have your 90 minute nap would be one o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon. That time is the best time to have the nap. Because it's really important that how you fall asleep at night has to do with how long you've been awake for. And the longer you nap and the closer you nap to bedtime, the harder it is going to be to fall asleep that night. So it, there are consequences to napping, that, that you don't necessarily notice. You know, anybody who's had small children know that you went through that phase of they can't nap after two o'clock in the afternoon, otherwise they only go to bed at nine. It's that kind of thing that, that we're talking about. So And particularly with the teenagers who may have difficulty falling asleep anyway, you don't want to add, you don't want to add to that. ### Passage: Holiday gaming and delayed sleep phase syndrome [10:06-12:21, 508 words] Note (AI): Shows how late holiday nights shift teenagers into another time zone and leave them physically unfit for the first hours of school. Alison Bentley, guest [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=606): > So during the holidays, particularly, what they do is they stay up even later. So they'll stay up till one, two o'clock in the morning. Often if they're doing online gaming, friends from the US will log in like midnight, so our time. So, yeah, so they're kind of different continents are playing different times. So they'll stay up till two o'clock in the morning, go to sleep, and parents kind of go, shame, they're on holiday, let them sleep in till ten, eleven in the morning. And that's great for the holidays, but in a group of those boys, when school starts again, they can't come back. They're on another time zone, and so they're shifted. We call it delayed sleep phase syndrome because it's now a problem. They're going to bed at two o'clock. Getting up at six, there's your four hours. That's where the four hours come in. And more, more than that, when I speak to these, cause I see a lot of them around this time of the year, because after December holidays, yeah, after December holidays. Yeah. So I see a couple of them now. And when, when you speak to them, they, and I always say to patients who have difficulty falling asleep, like, are you sleepy? Like when you go to bed and they go, I'm not sleepy at all. Like I'm wide awake. And I go, when are you sleepy? Like, when do you know, oh, there's that sleepiness. And they go two, three o'clock in the morning. I've had patients where it's gone right through till five. They are sleeping from five in the morning through to three o'clock in the afternoon, so it can get really out, far out. So they only sleep here at two o'clock in the morning. If you wake them up at six, it's equivalent to you go to bed at half past eight, right? Let's say nine. Let's say nine. Let's say nine o'clock, right? It's equivalent to waking up at half past one in the morning. Gershom Aitchison, host [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=696): > Yeah, I know, that's hectic. And say, Alison Bentley, guest [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=697): > and I go to school, okay? Gershom Aitchison, host [11:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=699): > Yeah, I get it. So Alison Bentley, guest [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=700): > they wake up and their entire system is trying to sleep. Their blood pressure is low, pulse rate is low, gut is not active. just, they're just not, they, they literally feel physically ill, okay? There's no, they're not fit for learning. They're not, well, they're not fit for anything. They actually should be asleep, okay? And then they'll be at school, and then they will go through the morning, and then suddenly at about ten, eleven o'clock, they'll say, suddenly I feel hungry. And I go, yeah, that's when you woke up. You woke Gershom Aitchison, host [12:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=729): > up, right. Alison Bentley, guest [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=730): > That's when the gut woke up. They feel hungry, and despite the fact they've had no more sleep, they feel better, like they're more awake. Because they are awake. Does that make sense? So that you have a situation where the first three hours of school, they're not actually there. ### Passage: Why screens delay melatonin and sleep [18:15-19:42, 301 words] Note (AI): Explains why melatonin needs dim light, and how a phone close to the face pushes back the 90-minute route to sleepiness. Alison Bentley, guest [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1095): > Now, the reason why it's become a big buzzword is because of melatonin. Melatonin gets produced, so melat, so one of the forces that makes us sleep is how long you've been awake for. The main one is when is your sleep time, like where is it in time, which is, which is, which is whether you're a lark or an owl, and, and that drop in body temperature that makes you feel sleepy is driven by melatonin. Melatonin only gets produced in dim light. So if you don't have dim light, you don't produce melatonin. And the problem with technology now, so the TV was never a problem because it was yonder on the other side of, of the room. Room was dim, and TV was there, so you produced your melatonin. But if you have a phone, and what happened, the difference was that technology came here to the front of your face. Now the light was from there, moved here. And so if there's too much light, and you can measure the light in lux, so if there's too much light hitting your eyes, you will not produce melatonin. Okay. So melatonin you're supposed to produce about an hour and a half before you want to go to bed. So there's that 90 minutes. So you produce melatonin here, 90 minutes later, your body temperature drops, and that's what makes you sleepy. Okay. So that's how that works. So you have this hour and a half little window thing. So if you're not exposed to dim light, you don't produce melatonin, then you go to bed, aha, dim light, produce melatonin, but you only fall asleep an hour and a half later. So you get that delay in the sleep because you haven't been exposed to dim light. ### Passage: Deep sleep, REM sleep and the dementia link [35:58-38:11, 468 words] Note (AI): Sets out what deep and REM sleep each do and why cutting the end of the night costs memory, creativity and brain clearance. Alison Bentley, guest [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2158): > So if you look at sleep and the, and the internal structure of sleep, most of your deep sleep happens in, so deep non-REM sleep happens in the first half of the night, and most of your REM sleep in the second half of your night. So the, and they're different. So the deep sleep is very much about physical restoration of the body, so you produce growth hormone and all the kind of repair that happens during that, and the growth that happens during the night. REM sleep seems to be much more about the brain. It's where you flush out the waste products, it's where you have a lot of creativity, whatever dreams are for, I'm still on the fence about that, I don't know what they do. But there's dreams, your brain is literally disconnected from the body, your body is paralyzed during REM sleep, so your brain can do whatever it likes with no consequences. Okay. So you can't act out your dreams. If you act out your dreams, that's abnormal. You can't act out your dreams. It's a really good thing. If you think about the last dream that you had, well, thank goodness I didn't jump out of bed and do that. Okay. So, so it's a, so the, the brain is completely disconnected and it can do what it likes. And so theories range from what your brain does is take your experiences during the day, open up the memory banks and go, this one fits there and that one fits there. Oh, look at that, that's interesting. And all of that gets into the dream, like what you've, what you've been doing. So, so that's what it does. Your creativity happens during REM sleep. so it's very much that intellectual kind of thing, but also at a very basic level, your brain is being scrubbed clean for the next day. Okay, so metabolically. Okay. So depending on where you lose the sleep, you're going to lose a particular type of sleep. Now, deep sleep is always protected because no matter what time you go to bed, you're always going to have that first. But it's this end. If you cut this end short, you're going to lose that REM sleep. And so you're going to lose memory, learning, creativity, that kind of stuff, and the biology that's happening during sleep. So that's why the, the link between insomnia and dementia is about that. If you're not scrubbing the brain clean enough every night, you're accumulating stuff. And that is one of the theories of dementia, is that you accumulate this amyloid protein and, and it causes, and the plaques, yes. And you're accumulating because you're not getting enough of this REM sleep to be able to flush out the brain. ### Passage: How insomnia becomes chronic and how CBTI treats it [42:34-44:15, 347 words] Note (AI): Describes the early-bedtime trap, the precipitating event behind chronic insomnia and the first behavioural steps of CBTI. Alison Bentley, guest [42:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2554): > And, and it's tiredness from the day, but it's maybe not the right time to go to sleep. So if you try to take that, so the worst thing that patients with insomnia do is they try to get that sleepiness at eight, okay? Then they wake up and they go, but I'm just going to stay in bed. And they end up with a sleep schedule, it's eight to six. Does that make sense? They're staying in bed from eight o'clock, because that's when the sleepiness is. Ten hours. But they're not sleeping. Gershom Aitchison, host [42:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2577): > And I'm Alison Bentley, guest [42:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2578): > going, you can't sleep for ten hours, right? And that's the biggest problem with insomnia is that people do that. It makes sense to them. They kind of go, well, this is when I'm sleepy. Makes sense to them, but then they're lying for four hours in bed, freaking out about their sleep. And that's where the, when we talk about the process Of developing insomnia, we often start with a precipitating event, something starts it, exams, death in the family, divorce, something starts this inability to sleep because you're super stressed. And then most people who have that kind of insomnia, it disappears and their sleep comes back. But there's a group of people where the insomnia continues and becomes chronic insomnia or insomnia disorder, and that is because they create all of this thinking and behavioral things and they change their sleep and they're trying to do this and they're trying to do the next thing, and all they're doing is lying in bed getting super anxious about their sleep. And that's what we call the cognitive behavioral model of insomnia, and then that's why we use CBTI to treat insomnia, because we get rid of that behavior, so the first thing we do is make them spend less time in bed, if they can't fall asleep, get up, go and do something to distract yourself to get that sleepy feeling again, go back to bed, and then the cognitive anxiety kind of changes once the sleep comes back. ### Passage: Sleep, memory and the anti-all-nighter study method [44:16-47:23, 616 words] Note (AI): Covers the three memory processes, the 1928 study and a concrete study-and-nap schedule for students preparing for exams. Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest [44:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2656): > Yeah. Can I take our conversation to studying and learning? Sure. Because I'm often the one to educate teenagers on not pulling the all-nighter because they think that'll work, but... So my specific question to you is to explain to them that sleep actually finishes the learning process and locks in what you've just spent hours learning. And that's a concept I'm bringing up daily because I didn't get enough time, I'd rather just study the whole night through, and then they blank out in their tests. Of course they do. So can you speak on that a little bit? Alison Bentley, guest [44:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2690): > Sure. I was asked to do some talks on learning and memory and, and that kind of thing, so I looked up the literature, and in 1928, which is a long time, it's nearly a hundred years ago, there was a paper, wouldn't pass muster now, just two people that they did this research on, but they looked at, at people and they gave them a, something to learn. And then each of them did the same, the same thing twice. So they gave them something to learn, and then they either kept them awake for an hour or let them sleep for thirty minutes and assessed how much they remembered. And there was no question that they remembered significantly more if they'd had the sleep. Okay, so that thirty minutes of sleep, they remembered significantly more than if they'd stayed awake. So that's, that's where it started, and it's, it's well known now that, and you're absolutely right, there are three different processes to memory. One is putting stuff in, like you gotta Read the books. Okay. So if we take that as study, you have to read the books. Now, the really important things about reading the books is if you are sleepy, you're only taking in 30, 40% of what you're reading because you can't focus, you can't concentrate. It's an Gershom Aitchison, host [45:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2757): > adaptive process. Alison Bentley, guest [45:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2759): > You've got to just put that in. So if you are sleepy to start with, so this all-nighter thing, you're not, it's taking you much longer to learn. I mean, it just is taking much longer to put it in. 100%. So that's the first process. That's called, you know, putting it into the brain. Then you've got your sleep and your sleep, you're absolutely right, sleep hardwires everything. So part of the REM process and the memory function is that sleep hardwires those memories and so they're there. Okay. The third part of memory is recall. So you can only recall as much as you've hardwired. Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest [46:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2793): > Right. Alison Bentley, guest [46:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2794): > So if you take in less because you're tired and you sleep a little, so you don't hardwire it, you might only be able to recall twenty percent of what the work was. Okay, so you just have to do the math. If you only input fifty percent and you only hardwire fifty percent, you're down to twenty-five percent that you remember. So the studying technique that I always recommend to, to students is that they study for an hour and a half, if they can, take a thirty-minute nap, wake up, have a cup of tea, study for another hour and a half, take a thirty-minute nap. If you have to, study for long periods of time, rather take naps because you then, you've then kind of banked it. Does that make sense? So you go, I've learned this, it's banked. Now I can move on to something else, and it's banked. So each time you bank it by sleeping, that's what you do. Not by resting, not by meditating, not by watching TV, not by going on your phone, by ### Quotes > "sleep hygiene is like dental hygiene. If you don't look after your teeth, they go away." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [14:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=891) > "Do you have to save lives? Switch the phone off. There's an off button." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=969) > "If we want our teens to do it, we need to join." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1005) > "They don't do what you tell them to do. They do what you show." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [16:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1009) > "If you under-service your car every night, it breaks down faster." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [28:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1717) > "kind of going, you're not Treated, you're not fixed, right? It's just managed." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1962) > "So each time you bank it by sleeping, that's what you do. Not by resting, not by meditating, not by watching TV, not by going on your phone, by" >, Alison Bentley, guest · [47:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2834) > "Sleeping tablets don't manage anxiety. Yeah, they just don't do that." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [50:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3059) > "You can't study, study, study till 11, switch off the light and expect to be asleep by half past 11." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [55:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3347) > "Cats, this whole thing, cats have staff." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [57:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3470) > "Children need to sleep. Adults need to sleep. That's why we call this sleep health." >, Alison Bentley, guest · [66:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3991) ### Claims > "Yes, we go from grade four to twelve. Okay. As you can imagine, the, the, the sleep issue is mostly with the, the older kids." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teen circadian shift · [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=44) > "But my personal advice is if you have to, have to, have to nap, do a 90-minute to try and fill a sleep cycle. So that we're not doing a quick thirty minutes and then you get up more exhausted than when you went to nap in the first place." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Napping · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=117) > "And so napping is often driven because sleep has not been good. Okay, so they haven't had enough sleep, they, or they have a sleep disorder, or something's wrong with the actual sleep, because theoretically you should be able to get enough sleep during the, during the night to wake up with no debt." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Napping · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=162) > "So when I used to give talks on, you know, to fairly big audiences of people, I'd go, who can power nap here? And it'd be ten percent of my people who can power nap." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Napping · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=226) > "And the best time to nap is after lunch. That is definitely. So the two, three o'clock in the afternoon slot. Partly because we're designed to nap, actually, at that period, and every Mediterranean country that has siesta takes advantage of that." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Napping · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=281) > "Because it's really important that how you fall asleep at night has to do with how long you've been awake for. And the longer you nap and the closer you nap to bedtime, the harder it is going to be to fall asleep that night." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Napping · [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=340) > "Majority of people are going to sleep seven to eight, but because it's a normal distribution curve, the stats just work that five percent are going to be outside of that. So five percent are going to sleep less than six hours, five percent are going to need nine or more." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep quantity · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=415) > "And I say to them, good sleep hygiene is, you know, if you're a six-hour sleeper, you know, or an eight-hour sleeper, if you are sleeping every night or going to bed every night at a different time, it causes more problems than the amount of sleep you're getting." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [07:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=454) > "So we know that Around the age fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, somewhere around there, that every teenager gets a shift by about an hour delay in their sleep of about an hour, which seems to be a, a thing that happens with all of them." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=480) > "But it's so profound that studies have been done, they've taken entire schools, high schools in the US, and moved them an hour later, the entire school an hour later. And Astonishing changes. Improvement in behavior, improvement in marks, improvement in just interpersonal relationships, improvement in communication, because it's the right time zone for the kids. It's never lasted because it's not the right time zone for the parents." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=532) > "They're on another time zone, and so they're shifted. We call it delayed sleep phase syndrome because it's now a problem. They're going to bed at two o'clock. Getting up at six, there's your four hours." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=637) > "And more, more than that, when I speak to these, cause I see a lot of them around this time of the year, because after December holidays, yeah, after December holidays." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=649) > "They feel hungry, and despite the fact they've had no more sleep, they feel better, like they're more awake. Because they are awake. Does that make sense? So that you have a situation where the first three hours of school, they're not actually there." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=731) > "The better thing to control sleep hygiene is waking up in the morning at the same time." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=765) > "So just keeping that wake up time, not necessarily Six over the weekend, but seven, just keeping that wake-up time keeps them on track so that the next week they start on track again." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=793) > "We use melatonin to kind of slowly move them back into the right time zone, and it works extremely well, but it requires a lot of discipline, and 16 to 17-year-old boys are not known for their discipline or their love of discipline." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [13:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=813) > "And people don't think that routine is important for teenagers, but it's just as vitally important for teenagers as it is for our small children." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=861) > "So that routine helps you fall asleep. And so everyone has one, but teenagers, because they can fall asleep so easily, don't tend to have one." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=919) > "I've got so many clients that say they cannot fall asleep at night, but that's because they lie in bed with their phone, their friends are on different time schedules or sleep schedules, should I say, and it pings, and then they're back awake," >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=934) > "You get a family basket that lives in a different room, the dining room, and it's at an hour before your bedtime, you go and put your phone in there. You can put your password on so mom and dad can't check your things, and then the phone stays on silent in that basket until you wake up in the morning." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [16:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=980) > "Melatonin only gets produced in dim light. So if you don't have dim light, you don't produce melatonin." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1117) > "So melatonin you're supposed to produce about an hour and a half before you want to go to bed. So there's that 90 minutes. So you produce melatonin here, 90 minutes later, your body temperature drops, and that's what makes you sleepy." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [19:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1152) > "So reading a book does not have the same problems as having backlit. It's always the backlit issue." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [20:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1205) > "So generally, melatonin's very safe. It's, it's very safe. it used to be over-the-counter in South Africa, but it's not anymore, and that's correct, because it's over-the-counter in the US, and there is a lot of misuse and abuse in, in the US." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin supplements · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1274) > "It, but it's not a sleeping tablet. It is not something that's going to work in everybody. It just isn't. but they're a group of children where it works extremely well." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin supplements · [22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1329) > "So on anyone on the autism spectrum, the evidence we have is that their melatonin is likely to be lower than normal than control children. So they often supplementing the melatonin they have improves their sleep enormously." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin supplements · [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1344) > "to give you an idea on, in research, when you measure melatonin, you start taking spit at six o'clock in the evening every twenty minutes until three o'clock in the morning, and you go, where is the melatonin?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin supplements · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1432) > "And so we say to the kids, just chew it. If you chew it, you break the structure, the prolonged release structure, and it's now fast release. And so you don't get the lengthening bit." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Melatonin supplements · [25:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1533) > "Instead of, so my, my kind of rant about this whole thing is nobody sits down and says to the kid, what does your sleep actually look like? Can you sleep in in the morning? If school starts at eight, eleven o'clock in the morning, would you still have a sleep problem?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Teen circadian shift · [26:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1607) > "So when I talk about health with the teens, I actually break it down for them and I show them health is physical health, mental health, and then I say sleep is a separate element in health itself." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1633) > "If you wake up and you have under-serviced the car, either because you haven't had enough hours, or because the hours are poor quality because you have sleep apnea or restless legs or something going on, you're under-servicing the car." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1706) > "really good data to show that if you are underslept, for whatever reason, more likely to catch a cold, more likely to catch pneumonia. If you have a vaccination, produce less antibodies." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1727) > "is the less you sleep, the higher your BMI. Yes. Very closely linked. I mean, we have very good evidence you're going to put on weight if you don't sleep well." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1766) > "if you take teenagers who are not sleeping well, and you reduce their physical activity as well, Then the weight climbs. There's just this massive big climbing. They're four times more likely to be obese if you put those two together." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [30:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1811) > "If you have insomnia, you have a ten times higher risk of depression for the rest of your life." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [31:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1876) > "So the data we have for sleep apnea and dementia, for example, is if you have untreated sleep apnea, dementia happens ten years earlier in life. And if you treat the sleep apnea, you can push it back ten years." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=1898) > "But also remember that when we talk about increased risk, we're not talking about an absolute. It's not a hundred percent." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2003) > "and that is that insomnia is where you get too little sleep for your daytime needs. Okay. So by, by definition for insomnia, you have to have a deficit the next day." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2106) > "most of your deep sleep happens in, so deep non-REM sleep happens in the first half of the night, and most of your REM sleep in the second half of your night." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep stages · [36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2162) > "If you're not scrubbing the brain clean enough every night, you're accumulating stuff. And that is one of the theories of dementia, is that you accumulate this amyloid protein and, and it causes, and the plaques, yes." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and long-term health · [37:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2275) > "Well, I think, Amy, it's, you're a hundred percent right when you said, I said to the teenagers, you know, you don't get enough sleep. I'm an, I'm a, I had insomnia. And that's just an excuse to say that my sleep hygiene's off, I'm going to bed late, and I'm not getting enough sleep." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [38:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2292) > "so medications can interfere with sleep. So lots of them. So beta blockers interfere, cortisone interferes, the old antiretrovirals interfered with sleep, like you slept worse on them." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [39:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2399) > "So I get the sleepiness by half past, eight, I want to get into bed. If I push through until half past nine, ten, suddenly I'm wide awake again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [41:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2467) > "we often start with a precipitating event, something starts it, exams, death in the family, divorce, something starts this inability to sleep because you're super stressed." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [43:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2597) > "And that's what we call the cognitive behavioral model of insomnia, and then that's why we use CBTI to treat insomnia, because we get rid of that behavior, so the first thing we do is make them spend less time in bed, if they can't fall asleep, get up, go and do something to distract yourself to get that sleepy feeling again, go back to bed, and then the cognitive anxiety kind of changes once the sleep comes back." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [43:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2630) > "So my specific question to you is to explain to them that sleep actually finishes the learning process and locks in what you've just spent hours learning." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Sleep and learning · [44:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2668) > "and in 1928, which is a long time, it's nearly a hundred years ago, there was a paper, wouldn't pass muster now, just two people that they did this research on," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and learning · [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2697) > "So the studying technique that I always recommend to, to students is that they study for an hour and a half, if they can, take a thirty-minute nap, wake up, have a cup of tea, study for another hour and a half, take a thirty-minute nap." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep and learning · [46:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2810) > "And people don't understand caffeine. They go, oh, it only works for two hours. No, no, no, it's there for six hours." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Stimulants and caffeine · [48:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2938) > "The worst I ever heard was a shift worker at the Hendrina Power Station who was drinking thirty cups of filter coffee a shift." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Stimulants and caffeine · [49:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=2971) > "And the problem is that if you then give people sleeping tablets, they don't work because there's this massive anxiety. Sleeping tablets don't manage anxiety." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [50:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3053) > "So sometimes we do say to, say to children particularly, try some rescue remedy, try some viral, but at dinner, not before you go to bed, because by then the anxiety is up here and it might do that." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Insomnia and anxiety · [51:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3099) > "And then you include in your, your before bedtime, your thirty minutes of me time. And I say that's not allowed to be digital at all. So it can be an adult coloring in book. It can be beading." >, Amy Dewes-Goulborn, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [52:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3152) > "what was really, what was, what made a big impression on me was hearing that de-stressing or having that me time is all about things you cannot do quickly. They've got to be slow things, okay?" >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [53:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3181) > "yeah, they do have to shut off social media. There's a very good link between social media and anxiety." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Technology and melatonin · [54:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3271) > "you go an hour and a half before any screens down, down, down the brightness. Okay. Reduce the brightness, try to stay off social media because it's not helping. It's not helping. Then about, it's a, then half an hour before you want to go to bed, you have to have something that kind of disconnects you." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [55:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3304) > "15 minutes before you want to fall asleep. Go actually into bed. Do something to kind of distract your head if you need to," >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Sleep hygiene and routine · [55:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3330) > "So sleeping with pets, fifty percent of pet owners, it was a huge number, I didn't realize it was that high, fifty percent of pet owners sleep with their pets on their bed." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Pets and sleep · [57:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3441) > "So humans, we know what we call monophasic sleepers, we have one piece of sleep here. Dogs are polyphasic, and cats are also polyphasic." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Pets and sleep · [58:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3482) > "So at, if you have a dog there, you'll sleep at seventy-five percent, but if you don't have the dog there, you sleep at sixty percent." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Pets and sleep · [60:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3643) > "Once you get to about fifty-five, we know that it's low, it's too low at fifty-five. Okay. And then it continues to drop, and about seventy, you have nothing." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Gender and ageing · [62:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3759) > "Women's sleep gets worse, men's are snoring, and then it hits together, and the women are going, I can't sleep." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Gender and ageing · [63:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3794) > "so my, my backstory is always that I will come as a doctor. My job is to practice evidence-based medicine, and so I will always give you the evidence that we have from research rather than just what's out there as, as a thing." >, Alison Bentley, guest · topic: Evidence-based medicine · [65:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521635_high.mp3#t=3905) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) This conversation discussed sleep health, particularly focusing on teenagers and their sleep patterns. Dr. Alison Bentley, from the Restonic Ezintsha Sleep Clinic, led the discussion with Amy-Dewes-Goulborn (counselor at Bryanston High School) and Gershom Aitchison (headmaster of Edu Inc. Private School). The conversation covered several key areas: daytime napping for teenagers, with Dr. Bentley explaining the optimal nap duration and timing; the importance of sleep quantity for teenagers, emphasizing their need for more sleep than adults; the impact of technology on sleep, particularly regarding melatonin production; sleep hygiene practices and routines; the relationship between sleep and academic performance, with Dr. Bentley highlighting how sleep consolidates learning; the effects of poor sleep on mental health and anxiety; and the use of melatonin supplements in treating sleep issues. The discussion also touched on the impact of pets on sleep quality and gender differences in sleep patterns as people age. Throughout the interview, Dr. Bentley emphasized the critical role of sleep in overall health, memory consolidation, and academic performance, while providing practical advice for parents and teenagers to improve sleep habits. Connect with Amy · Bryanston High School · Restonic Ezintsha Sleep Clinic · Restonic SA Website · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Est Optimum Sui | Prefects' Honours Evening Speeches - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2024-07-13-prefects-honours-evening-speeches/ - Date: 2024-07-13 (as at 2024-07-13) - Guest: Mika, Myles, Solana Britz, Luca Di Nicola, Kyle Mayhew - Themes: Being your best self, Authenticity and self-acceptance, Honesty with yourself, Personal growth habits, Embracing imperfection, Prefect leadership - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1460177 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mika - prefect · Education Incorporated - One of the prefects who delivered a speech at the 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of Being Your Best Self. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Myles - prefect · Education Incorporated - One of the prefects who delivered a speech at the 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of Being Your Best Self. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Solana Britz - prefect · Education Incorporated - One of the prefects who delivered a speech at the 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of Being Your Best Self. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Luca Di Nicola - Prefect · Education Incorporated - One of the prefects who delivered a speech at the 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of Being Your Best Self. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Kyle Mayhew - prefect · Education Incorporated - One of the prefects who delivered a speech at the 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of Being Your Best Self. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This episode presents the speeches five prefects of Education Incorporated gave at the 2023 Honours Evening. Education Incorporated is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. Each prefect interprets the school motto, Est Optimum Sui, 'be your best self'. Mika argues that your best self is the person you are comfortable being. Myles starts from honesty with yourself and authenticity. Solana describes a set of lifelong growth habits. Luca argues that being your best self is not perfection and that it creates a ripple effect in the community. Kyle closes with an end-of-year toast to embracing your quirks. The presenter frames the speeches in terms of what prefects are chosen for and what the role involves. **Key ideas** - Mika argues against aiming at an idealised future self. She says your best self is the person you are genuinely comfortable being. ([01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=76) [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=76) [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=88) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=175)) - Mika holds that comfort and confidence with yourself come before growth, because without them you cannot identify areas to grow. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=97)) - Myles says honesty with yourself is the starting point. Authenticity lets you adapt to situations without fundamentally changing who you are. ([03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=193) [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=212) [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=243) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=276)) - Solana treats the motto as a lifelong compass, not something that applies only during school. ([05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=310)) - Luca argues that being your best self means the best version of yourself, flaws and all, and finding a balance that works uniquely for you. ([09:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=568) [09:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=581) [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=588)) - Luca says being your best self goes beyond personal gain and creates a ripple effect that supports the community. ([11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=669) [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=683)) - Kyle frames being your best self as accepting your quirks and flaws rather than being a superhero all the time. ([13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=792) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=793) [13:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=804) [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=854)) **Solana's compass for being your best self** ([06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=381) [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=405) [07:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=421) [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=436) [07:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=454) [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=485)) 1. Set specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time-bound SMART goals for various aspects of life. 2. Regularly reflect on your values, goals and actions, and adjust course if needed. 3. View challenges and obstacles as opportunities for personal development. 4. Practise mindfulness so you make intentional choices rather than reacting impulsively. 5. Stay curious and committed to lifelong learning of new knowledge, skills and experience. **Lessons** - Mika advises giving yourself time to make mistakes and to explore your identity, for example through fashion, study styles or music, to find what makes you comfortable. ([02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=154)) - Myles advises staying honest with others but starting to be honest with yourself. ([03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=212)) - Solana recommends SMART goals and regular reflection to keep your choices aligned with your values. ([06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=405) [07:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=421)) - Luca suggests treating being your best self as a continuous journey, not a final destination. ([11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=693)) - Kyle encourages letting go of worries and making time to rest and relax. ([12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=759) [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=776)) **Who it's for:** Pupils, parents and teachers interested in how Education Incorporated's prefects interpret the school motto. It also suits anyone looking for student perspectives on authenticity, honesty, self-acceptance and personal growth habits. **Facts stated in the episode** - The speeches were given at Education Incorporated's 2023 honours evening. ([02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=175) [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=557)) - Luca states the school motto is Est Optimum Sui, meaning be your best self. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=557)) - Mika quotes Oscar Wilde: be yourself, everyone else is already taken. ([02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=129)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does Education Incorporated's motto Est Optimum Sui mean?** A: Luca explains that the school motto, Est Optimum Sui, means be your best self. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=557)) **Q: Is being your best self about becoming an ideal version of yourself?** A: Mika argues that it is not. She says it is about embracing who you are and being genuinely comfortable with that person. ([01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=76) [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=88) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=175)) **Q: Where should someone start if they want to be their best self?** A: Myles says practically everyone must start with honesty, especially honesty with yourself. Authenticity follows from that. ([03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=212) [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=243)) **Q: What practical habits help with personal growth?** A: Solana recommends SMART goals, regular reflection on values, treating challenges as opportunities, mindfulness, and lifelong learning. ([06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=405) [07:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=421) [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=436) [07:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=454) [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=485)) **Q: Does being your best self mean being perfect?** A: Luca says it is not about being perfect but being the best version of yourself, flaws and all. Kyle adds that it is not about being a superhero 24/7. ([09:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=581) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=793)) **Q: How does being your best self affect other people?** A: Luca argues that it creates a ripple effect: positive attitude, determination and kindness help a community thrive on mutual support. ([11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=669) [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=683)) **Q: What does being a prefect at Education Incorporated involve?** A: The presenter says prefects are chosen for leadership, responsibility and commitment to a positive school environment. The role means setting an example, solving conflicts with integrity and supporting fellow students. ([00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=13) [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=894)) **Q: Is the motto only meant for school years?** A: Solana says it is not limited to school and is often considered a lifelong philosophy or compass for self-improvement. ([05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=310)) ### Passage: Mika: your best self is who you're comfortable being [01:16-03:02, 292 words] Note (AI): Mika's full argument against chasing an idealised self, and her view that comfort and confidence come before growth. Mika, guest [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=76): > Many advocate for focusing on the person you aspire to become. However, I would like to diverge from that notion. If I were to stand here today and tell you that I'd be leading you astray, it's not about aspiring to become an idealized version of yourself. Instead, it's about embracing who you are, genuinely comfortable being. I'm not suggesting that you don't have goals to grow in life, but how do you achieve them without truly being comfortable and consequently confident with yourself? You wouldn't know which areas to identify for growth. Aspire to be someone you're truly comfortable with being, and in turn, that individual will pave numerous ways for growth. In a society that often measures success by external accomplishments, we must recognize that true fulfillment stems from internal peace with yourself. It's not about matching someone else's expectations, but about aligning with our authentic selves. As Oscar Wilde wisely said, be yourself, everyone else is already taken. To be your genuine self is to acknowledge your strengths, celebrate your uniqueness, and accept your vulnerabilities. It's a journey that liberates us from the restraints of comparison, allowing us to appreciate the beauty of our own individuality. So keep in mind, the journey to becoming your authentic self demands both time and patience. Allow yourself the freedom and time to make mistakes, enjoy embarrassing moments, reconsider friendships, and explore various aspects of your identity. Whether it's fashion, studying styles, or music, through this exploration, you'll find what truly makes you comfortable. While the journey may be exhausting, rest assured there's something for each of us at the end. So I'm here today to tell you that the person you're truly comfortable with being, that's your best self, now and always. ### Passage: Myles: honesty and authenticity as building blocks [03:13-04:50, 217 words] Note (AI): Myles lays out a two-part case: honesty with yourself, then authenticity, which lets you adapt without changing who you are. Myles, guest [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=193): > So, Est Optimum Sui, be your best self. These four words are quite significant. They can set out how you should live your life. There can be many interpretations for being one's best self, and they're all dependent on who you are. No matter who you are, however, there is one main thing that practically everyone must start with, and that is honesty. Keep being honest with others, but start being honest with yourself. People are honest with others, but not necessarily themselves. And when you are honest with yourself, There's something else that ties in wonderfully with it. That is authenticity to oneself. Now, authenticity. To be authentic with yourself, you need to accept who you are. Not try to be someone else, but learn who you are and embrace that person. When you are truly authentic with yourself, you are able to adapt to situations without changing who you are fundamentally. Throughout my entire life, I've seen plenty examples of this, of people who own change who they are, depending on the situation that they might be in or the friend group they're with. You need to be real. Trust who you are and just be honest with yourself. These two ideas are the main building blocks to Est Optimum Sui, being your best self. ### Passage: Solana's compass of habits for personal growth [06:21-08:34, 278 words] Note (AI): Solana gives the most practical guidance in the episode: SMART goals, reflection, mindfulness, lifelong learning and adaptability. Solana Britz, guest [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=381): > The motto Be Your Best Self can serve as a powerful and enduring compass for guiding one's life in various aspects, such as continuous improvement, which embraces a mindset of constant growth and improvement. Strive to be better today than what you were yesterday. This involves setting personal and professional goals and working towards them. Set specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound SMART goals for various aspects of your life. These goals provide direction and milestones for your journey to becoming your best self. Regularly reflecting on your values, goals, and actions. Assess whether your current choice aligns with your aspirations and values. Adjust your course if needed to stay true to your version of your best self. View challenges and obstacles as opportunities for personal development. Facing adversity can bring out your strengths and resilience, helping you evolve into a more resilient and capable person that is mindful and present. Practice mindfulness to stay present in the moment. Being aware of your thoughts and actions allows you to make intentional choices that align with your best self, rather than reacting impulsively. And just be true to yourself and your values. Authenticity is a key component of being your best self, and avoid compromising your principles for external validation and strive to live in alignment with your true identity. You need to stay curious and committed to lifelong learning, seek new knowledge, skills, and experience that contributes to your personal and professional growth. This continual learning process keeps you engaged and adaptable. Adaptability is to embrace life. Life is dynamic, and being your best self involves the ability to navigate and adapt to new circumstances, challenges, and opportunities. ### Passage: Luca on imperfection, balance and the ripple effect [09:28-11:28, 347 words] Note (AI): Luca uses humour to argue that being your best self is not perfection and that it benefits the wider community. Luca Di Nicola, guest [09:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=568): > But what does it truly mean to be your best self? Is it an unattainable standard, a distant aspiration, or is it a journey we embark upon each day? Well, let me share a little wisdom I picked up this year. Being your best self is not about being perfect. It's about being the best version of yourself, flaws and all. Now, I know we're all juggling academics, extracurriculars, and the occasional existential crisis, but being your best self is finding the balance that works uniquely for you. It's about discovering your strengths, embracing your quirks, and of course, mastering the art of setting multiple alarms to conquer those early morning classes. So, how can you be your best self? Well, it's a bit like making the perfect sandwich. Layering dedication, a sprinkle of passion, a dash of resilience, and let's not forget the secret sauce of compassion, and voila, you've got the recipe for success, or at least a pretty tasty metaphor. Now, why should you even bother being your best self? Well, aside from the fact that it impresses your grandparents during holiday dinners, being your best self sets you up for life. It's not just about acing exams or landing that dream job. It's about navigating the intricate dance of life with confidence and grace. Think about being your best self as having a superpower. Imagine going through life with a cape of self-assurance, prepared to tackle challenges with unwavering determination, whether it's personal relationships or mastering the art of sleeping in class whilst looking like you're paying attention. Being your best self becomes the key to unlocking doors and paving the way for success in the face of diverse challenges. But here's the twist. Being your best self isn't just about personal gain. It's about creating a ripple effect that touches the lives of those around you. Your positive attitude, determination, and kindness become the catalyst for a community that thrives on mutual support. After all, a rising tide lifts all boats, and so does a person committed to being their best selves. ### Passage: Kyle's send-off: quirks, flaws and adventure [13:12-14:22, 188 words] Note (AI): Kyle closes the year with an end-of-year toast to accepting flaws and living as your unapologetic self. Kyle Mayhew, guest [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=792): > Now folks, being your best self is not just about being a superhero 24/7. It's about accepting your quirks, relishing your uniqueness, and flaunting your flaws like they're just the latest fashion trend. After all, who wants to just be another clone in a sea of sameness? As we bid adieu to this whirlwind of a year, let's raise our invisible cups, or real ones if you have, and toast the sheer audacity of being unapologetically you. To the graduates, to the adventurers, and to every soul in this room and beyond, remember this: life's a treasure trove of memories waiting to be unearthed. So grab that shovel, put on your adventure boots, and dance through the carnival called life with your own unique swagger. So here's to you, to me, to us, the architects of our destiny, painting the canvas of life with hues of laughter, shades of courage, and strokes of brilliance. As we bid farewell, let's march ahead, heads held high, hearts beating to the rhythm of our dreams. Embrace your quirks, seize the day, and always, always be a gloriously, imperfect, beautifully authentic self. ### Quotes > "As Oscar Wilde wisely said, be yourself, everyone else is already taken." >, Mika, guest · [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=129) > "So I'm here today to tell you that the person you're truly comfortable with being, that's your best self, now and always." >, Mika, guest · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=175) > "You need to be real. Trust who you are and just be honest with yourself." >, Myles, guest · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=276) > "Strive to be better today than what you were yesterday." >, Solana Britz, guest · [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=396) > "After all, a rising tide lifts all boats, and so does a person committed to being their best selves." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · [11:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=683) > "here's to embracing the imperfect perfection of being your best self and lighting up the path for others to follow." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=704) > "After all, who wants to just be another clone in a sea of sameness?" >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · [13:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=804) > "Embrace your quirks, seize the day, and always, always be a gloriously, imperfect, beautifully authentic self." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=854) > "Congratulations, my friends, for this is just the prologue to your epic tale." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=863) ### Claims > "These students have been chosen for their exemplary leadership, responsibility, and unwavering commitment to creating a positive school environment." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Prefect leadership · [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=13) > "Many advocate for focusing on the person you aspire to become. However, I would like to diverge from that notion." >, Mika, guest · topic: Being your best self · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=76) > "it's not about aspiring to become an idealized version of yourself. Instead, it's about embracing who you are, genuinely comfortable being." >, Mika, guest · topic: Authenticity and self-acceptance · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=88) > "I'm not suggesting that you don't have goals to grow in life, but how do you achieve them without truly being comfortable and consequently confident with yourself? You wouldn't know which areas to identify for growth." >, Mika, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=97) > "In a society that often measures success by external accomplishments, we must recognize that true fulfillment stems from internal peace with yourself. It's not about matching someone else's expectations, but about aligning with our authentic selves." >, Mika, guest · topic: Authenticity and self-acceptance · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=115) > "Allow yourself the freedom and time to make mistakes, enjoy embarrassing moments, reconsider friendships, and explore various aspects of your identity. Whether it's fashion, studying styles, or music, through this exploration, you'll find what truly makes you comfortable." >, Mika, guest · topic: Authenticity and self-acceptance · [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=154) > "No matter who you are, however, there is one main thing that practically everyone must start with, and that is honesty. Keep being honest with others, but start being honest with yourself." >, Myles, guest · topic: Honesty with yourself · [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=212) > "To be authentic with yourself, you need to accept who you are. Not try to be someone else, but learn who you are and embrace that person. When you are truly authentic with yourself, you are able to adapt to situations without changing who you are fundamentally." >, Myles, guest · topic: Authenticity and self-acceptance · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=243) > "Throughout my entire life, I've seen plenty examples of this, of people who own change who they are, depending on the situation that they might be in or the friend group they're with." >, Myles, guest · topic: Authenticity and self-acceptance · [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=263) > "It is not limited to a specific time or context, such as being applicable only during school. Instead, it is often considered a lifelong philosophy or compass that guides individuals in their continuous journey of self-improvement." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Being your best self · [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=310) > "Set specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound SMART goals for various aspects of your life. These goals provide direction and milestones for your journey to becoming your best self." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=405) > "Regularly reflecting on your values, goals, and actions. Assess whether your current choice aligns with your aspirations and values. Adjust your course if needed to stay true to your version of your best self." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [07:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=421) > "View challenges and obstacles as opportunities for personal development. Facing adversity can bring out your strengths and resilience, helping you evolve into a more resilient and capable person that is mindful and present." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=436) > "Practice mindfulness to stay present in the moment. Being aware of your thoughts and actions allows you to make intentional choices that align with your best self, rather than reacting impulsively." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [07:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=454) > "You need to stay curious and committed to lifelong learning, seek new knowledge, skills, and experience that contributes to your personal and professional growth. This continual learning process keeps you engaged and adaptable." >, Solana Britz, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=485) > "I want to reflect on a guiding principle that shapes our journey at this esteemed institution, the school motto, Est Optimum Sui, which means be your best self." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Being your best self · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=557) > "Being your best self is not about being perfect. It's about being the best version of yourself, flaws and all." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Embracing imperfection · [09:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=581) > "Now, I know we're all juggling academics, extracurriculars, and the occasional existential crisis, but being your best self is finding the balance that works uniquely for you." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Being your best self · [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=588) > "Layering dedication, a sprinkle of passion, a dash of resilience, and let's not forget the secret sauce of compassion, and voila, you've got the recipe for success, or at least a pretty tasty metaphor." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=614) > "Being your best self isn't just about personal gain. It's about creating a ripple effect that touches the lives of those around you. Your positive attitude, determination, and kindness become the catalyst for a community that thrives on mutual support." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Prefect leadership · [11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=669) > "let's remember that being your best self is not a final destination. It's a continuous journey of growth, resilience, and a fair share of laughter along the way." >, Luca Di Nicola, guest · topic: Being your best self · [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=693) > "This year, let me tell you, has been a rollercoaster ride, with loops and surprises that even an amusement park would envy." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · topic: Being your best self · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=727) > "Let go of those worries, fears, and doubts. Release them into the wild and watch them vanish like socks in a washing machine, mysteriously and forever." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · topic: Embracing imperfection · [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=759) > "Take that breather, savour the peace like it's your last slice of pizza at a party, and indulge in some quality relaxation time." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · topic: Personal growth habits · [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=776) > "being your best self is not just about being a superhero 24/7. It's about accepting your quirks, relishing your uniqueness, and flaunting your flaws like they're just the latest fashion trend." >, Kyle Mayhew, guest · topic: Embracing imperfection · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=793) > "being a Prefect at Education Incorporated means setting a positive example, solving conflicts with integrity, and supporting fellow students through challenges." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Prefect leadership · [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460177_high.mp3#t=894) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Est Optimum Sui - Be Your Best Self Our prefects each delivered a speech at our 2023 Honours Evening on the theme of "Being Your Best Self" Hear Mika, Myles, Solana, Luca, and Kyle share their stories. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Meet our Ambassadors - Lilli and Luca - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2024-07-13-meet-our-ambassadors-lilli-and-luca/ - Date: 2024-07-13 (as at 2024-07-13) - Guest: Luca DiNicola, Lilli Jackson - Themes: Role of an ambassador, Ambassador versus prefect, Personal growth and confidence, Balancing responsibilities, Advice for younger students, Representing school values - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1460197 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Lilli Jackson - Ambassador · Edu Inc - Awarded the ambassador position at honours evening at the end of 2023; describes it as being kind of head girl for the school. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Luca DiNicola - Ambassador · Edu Inc - Awarded the ambassador position at honours evening at the end of 2023; also a prefect, elected two years ago. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short interview with Lilli Jackson and Luca DiNicola, the two current ambassadors of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. The host asks how they explained the role to family, how it differs from being a prefect, why they think they were chosen, and what has changed in them since. They also cover the hardest part of the job, whether the responsibility ends with the term, and what they would advise younger students who want the role. The host closes by describing the role as embodying the school's values. **Key ideas** - Luca describes the ambassador role as the nearest equivalent to head boy and head girl at another school: people who represent the school to the best of their ability. ([00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=41) [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=91)) - Luca distinguishes the roles: a prefect has more jobs and duties, while an ambassador is more an icon for the school. ([01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=68) [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=71)) - Lilli says the role made her more open, more sure of herself and more communicative, and credits this to the trust people placed in her. ([02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=135) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157)) - Luca argues that representing the school continues after the title ends, including as an alumnus. ([03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=190) [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=203)) - Both ambassadors advise younger students to be themselves. Luca stresses authenticity, vulnerability and a moral compass; Lilli says to just be yourself. ([03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=215) [03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=224) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=234) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=234)) - The host characterises the ambassador role as embodying the school's values and being an example to other students. ([04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=241) [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=282)) **Lessons** - Luca advises aspiring ambassadors to stay authentic, vulnerable and truthful to themselves, and to have the courage to grow. ([03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=215) [03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=224)) - Lilli identifies balancing the role with schoolwork and extracurricular activities as its main challenge. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=102) [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=177)) - Lilli suggests that being trusted with responsibility can build a student's confidence. ([02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=135) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157)) - Luca holds that a student represents the school in everything they do, with or without a title. ([03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=190) [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=203)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc learners, especially younger students who hope to become ambassadors, and parents who want to understand what the ambassador role involves and how it differs from being a prefect. **Facts stated in the episode** - The two ambassadors were awarded the position at honours evening at the end of 2023. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=19)) - The host says the ambassadors have taken on PR tasks this year and have met influential people. ([04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=261)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is an Edu Inc ambassador?** A: Luca says it is the nearest equivalent to head boy and head girl at another school. The host describes it as embodying the school's values and being an example to other students. ([00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=41) [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=282)) **Q: How is being an ambassador different from being a prefect?** A: Luca says prefects have more jobs and duties, while an ambassador is more an icon for the school, though ambassadors also have responsibilities. ([01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=68)) **Q: How does becoming an ambassador change a student?** A: Lilli says she became more open, more sure of herself and more communicative. She attributes this to the trust people placed in her. ([02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=135) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157)) **Q: What is the hardest part of being a school ambassador?** A: Lilli says it is balancing the role with her schoolwork and extracurricular activities. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=177)) **Q: Does the ambassador responsibility end when the term ends?** A: Luca says no. The title goes, but you still represent the school, including after you leave as an alumnus. ([03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=190)) **Q: What advice do Edu Inc ambassadors give students who want the role?** A: Luca advises being authentic, vulnerable and true to your moral compass. Lilli says to baffle people with your brilliance but just be yourself. ([03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=215) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=234)) **Q: Why does Luca think he was chosen as ambassador?** A: Luca says he has grown a lot at Edu Inc, has embraced the school's ideals and values, and represents them well. ([01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=105)) ### Passage: Explaining the ambassador role and how it differs from prefect [00:02-01:25, 268 words] Note (AI): Sets out what the ambassador title means to the students and how Luca separates it from the duties of a prefect. Unidentified speaker, host [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=2): > Hello and welcome to the Edu Inc podcast. Today in studio we have Lilli Jackson and Luca DiNicola. Hi. Hi. The two current Edu Inc ambassadors. And we're going to have a little chat today about what that actually means and how you get there if this is an aspiration that you might have. You were awarded this position at honors evening at the end of 2023 and I'm sure you went home and you sent a few WhatsApps to family, you maybe spoke to grandparents and said that you had received the honor, the, the great honor of becoming an Edu Inc ambassador. Yeah. And then inevitably I'm quite sure somebody said, well, what is that? So how did you explain the role to them? Luca DiNicola, guest [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=41): > I basically said, the only thing that comes close to it is it's the equivalent of head boy and head girl in another school, people who represent the school to the best of their ability. Unidentified speaker, host [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=52): > So then how would that be different to being a prefect? Because you're also a prefect and have been, when were you elected as prefect, Luther? Luca DiNicola, guest [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=59): > Two years ago. Unidentified speaker, host [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=60): > So you've been a prefect grade nine, ten, and eleven. Luca DiNicola, guest [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=63): > Ten and eleven. Ten and eleven, right. Unidentified speaker, host [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=65): > Okay, so then how is that different to being an ambassador? Luca DiNicola, guest [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=68): > Prefectship, you have a lot more responsibilities and duties to do. As an ambassador, you're more an icon for the school, but a prefect, you have jobs to do, you have responsibilities towards the school, which you do have as an ambassador, but I think being a prefect is a bit more work. ### Passage: Why they were chosen and how it changed them [01:42-03:02, 230 words] Note (AI): The two ambassadors describe their growth, where their confidence came from, and the hardest part of the job. Unidentified speaker, host [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=102): > Exactly. Why do you think you were awarded this position? Luca DiNicola, guest [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=105): > I think personally, looking back on what I used to be, I think I've grown a lot at Edu Inc, and I've become a much better person, if I do say so myself. I think I've embraced the ideals and values of Edu Inc to the best of my ability, and I think I represent them well. Unidentified speaker, host [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=124): > Yeah, you certainly do. Lilli, since you received this award, what would you say has changed in you? what characteristics have developed? What is different since you received this award? Lilli Jackson, guest [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=135): > I've become a more open person, more sure of myself, more communicative to the people around me, and it's helped me with my relationships and my, like, friendships with other people. That's great. And Unidentified speaker, host [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=148): > where do you think that confidence came from? Was it because other people had recognized this in you, and you felt that you now could believe in yourself more? What, where did that come from, do you think? Lilli Jackson, guest [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157): > Just the trust that was bestowed upon me, people's recognizing that I can have this responsibility and that I will do okay with it. Unidentified speaker, host [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=168): > And then, Lilli, what do you think has been the most challenging or, or a challenging part of the job? Is there any Lilli Jackson, guest [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=176): > one thing you can think of? Balancing it with my school and my extracurricular activities, probably. ### Passage: Lasting responsibility and advice for aspiring ambassadors [03:05-04:00, 165 words] Note (AI): Gives both ambassadors' advice to younger students and Luca's view that representing the school continues after the title ends. Unidentified speaker, host [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=185): > Does the role of ambassador end when your term of office ends? Luca DiNicola, guest [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=190): > No, not necessarily. The title is gone, but you still have a responsibility towards the school. Even if you leave the school, you're still an alumni and you, you care about your school, so you want to do everything you can for it. So even if you're not an ambassador, you still represent the school with everything you do. Unidentified speaker, host [03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=208): > Absolutely. And what advice do you have, Luca, for younger students who might want to consider becoming an ambassador? Luca DiNicola, guest [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=215): > If you aspire to be an ambassador, make sure you're being authentic and vulnerable and staying true to your core principles and your moral compass. You must have the courage to grow and become who you really are and who you really want to be. You have to be truthful to yourself. Unidentified speaker, host [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=230): > Absolutely. Lilli Jackson, guest [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=231): > Lily, what advice do you have for the younger students? Baffle people with your brilliance. Use big words, but just be yourself. ### Quotes > "As an ambassador, you're more an icon for the school," >, Luca DiNicola, guest · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=71) > "Just the trust that was bestowed upon me," >, Lilli Jackson, guest · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157) > "Balancing it with my school and my extracurricular activities, probably." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=177) > "So even if you're not an ambassador, you still represent the school with everything you do." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=203) > "You must have the courage to grow and become who you really are and who you really want to be." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · [03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=224) > "Baffle people with your brilliance. Use big words, but just be yourself." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=234) > "live the school motto, be your best self." >, Unidentified speaker, host · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=241) ### Claims > "You were awarded this position at honors evening at the end of 2023 and I'm sure you went home and you sent a few WhatsApps to family," >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Role of an ambassador · [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=19) > "I basically said, the only thing that comes close to it is it's the equivalent of head boy and head girl in another school, people who represent the school to the best of their ability." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · topic: Role of an ambassador · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=41) > "Prefectship, you have a lot more responsibilities and duties to do. As an ambassador, you're more an icon for the school, but a prefect, you have jobs to do, you have responsibilities towards the school, which you do have as an ambassador, but I think being a prefect is a bit more work." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · topic: Ambassador versus prefect · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=68) > "Also, just saying it's, I'm now kind of head girl for the school. Yeah. I did use the word ambassador a lot." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · topic: Role of an ambassador · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=91) > "I think personally, looking back on what I used to be, I think I've grown a lot at Edu Inc, and I've become a much better person, if I do say so myself. I think I've embraced the ideals and values of Edu Inc to the best of my ability, and I think I represent them well." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · topic: Personal growth and confidence · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=105) > "I've become a more open person, more sure of myself, more communicative to the people around me, and it's helped me with my relationships and my, like, friendships with other people." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · topic: Personal growth and confidence · [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=135) > "Just the trust that was bestowed upon me, people's recognizing that I can have this responsibility and that I will do okay with it." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · topic: Personal growth and confidence · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=157) > "No, not necessarily. The title is gone, but you still have a responsibility towards the school. Even if you leave the school, you're still an alumni and you, you care about your school, so you want to do everything you can for it. So even if you're not an ambassador, you still represent the school with everything you do." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · topic: Representing school values · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=190) > "If you aspire to be an ambassador, make sure you're being authentic and vulnerable and staying true to your core principles and your moral compass. You must have the courage to grow and become who you really are and who you really want to be. You have to be truthful to yourself." >, Luca DiNicola, guest · topic: Advice for younger students · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=215) > "Baffle people with your brilliance. Use big words, but just be yourself." >, Lilli Jackson, guest · topic: Advice for younger students · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=234) > "I know that we've put quite a few tasks on your shoulders this year. There's been quite a lot of PR going on. You've met a couple of influential people, and you've acquitted yourselves very, very well." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Balancing responsibilities · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=261) > "It is the embodiment of the school's values. It is holding those values, flying the flag, and, constantly being the example of those values to the rest of the students in the school." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Representing school values · [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1460197_high.mp3#t=282) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Learn about the journey to being an Edu Inc Ambassador and what it means to live the spirit of our school. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## NeuroDiverse Journeys: Embracing Challenges, Celebrating Triumphs | Nicola and Jo - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2023-11-19-neurodiverse-journeys-embracing-challenges-celebrating-triumphs/ - Date: 2023-11-19 (as at 2023-11-19) - Guest: Jo, Nicola - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Autism diagnosis journeys, Finding the right school, Early intervention and therapy, Parent advocacy, Stigma and public judgement, Empathy in autistic children, Parental self-care, Honesty with children - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1381960?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jo - Mother of a 13-year-old son on the autism spectrum, diagnosed around age 4, who moved to Education Incorporated and won the Dux Award at the end of his first year. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Nicola - teacher - Mother of a 19-year-old son on the autism spectrum, diagnosed around age 7. A teacher who taught at Radford House, a school for gifted children. In their own words: > "I'm also a teacher, so I kind of have the view from both sides, being in the classroom, dealing with it, being a mom dealing with it, and trying to deal with other teachers in other schools dealing with my child." [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=62) > "Radford House is a school for gifted children, and that's where my life actually changed in terms of being a mom and also in terms of being a teacher, because it gave me the insights that I would never have had in any other situation." [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=628) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Gershom Aitchison, headmaster of Education Incorporated, talks with two mothers of autistic sons. Nicola, also a teacher, describes 19-year-old James, who is twice exceptional, and years of moving between schools and interventions. Jo describes 13-year-old Jesse, from sensory overwhelm and early therapy through a hard mainstream period to thriving after a move to Education Incorporated. They discuss diagnosis, labels, advocacy, public judgement, institutions such as hospitals and airports, parental self-care, honesty at home, and moments that showed their sons' empathy. Both mothers call the journey a privilege. **Key ideas** - Nicola argues that accepting a diagnosis is not labelling the child but empowering the parent to understand what they face. ([36:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2204) [36:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2210) [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2264)) - Both mothers credit early and intensive intervention; Nicola says tools for self-regulation cut James's meltdowns by eighty percent. ([11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=709) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=727) [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1187) [40:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2425)) - Jo describes swimming upstream in a system that did not fit her son despite committed teachers, until he said he was stupid. ([24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1465) [24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1494) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1617)) - Jo says being heard by teachers and having small classes changed Jesse's confidence and results. ([29:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1765) [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1827) [32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1957) [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1974)) - Jo urges parents not to let pessimistic predictions steal their joy and to focus on today's step. ([45:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2708) [45:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2708) [45:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2723) [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2782)) - Both mothers reject the claim that autistic people lack empathy; Nicola describes a circle of empathy that deepens with complexity. ([59:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3555) [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3592) [60:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3642) [61:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3706) [65:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3958)) - The host argues the only expectation should be raising a decent human being; what the child achieves is up to them. ([43:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2630)) - Jo and the host favour complete honesty with children from the start, which Nicola frames as respect. ([71:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4282) [72:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4325) [72:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4337)) **Lessons** - Nicola advises parents to advocate and educate teachers about why their child behaves as they do, even when told they are making excuses. ([38:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2338) [39:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2377) [41:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2511)) - Jo suggests parents investigate medical aid benefits, which she says many do not know how to use for therapy. ([23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1436)) - Nicola recommends growing a thick skin toward public criticism and listening only to people who build you up. ([48:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2882) [49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2962) [49:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2982)) - Jo warns that parents also need to thrive; she neglected self-care and lost her sense of self. ([44:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2667) [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2828)) - The host says preparing children for change in advance helps reduce overwhelm. ([33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2033) [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2068)) **Who it's for:** Parents of children recently diagnosed on the autism spectrum or with twice-exceptional profiles, parents weighing school options, and teachers wanting to understand the parent's side of supporting neurodiverse pupils. **Facts stated in the episode** - Nicola's son James was diagnosed with ADHD at four and received his formal autism diagnosis at seven. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=505)) - Nicola says some facilities she looked at cost 25,000 Rand a month. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=505)) - Nicola says the Davis Program cost about a hundred thousand rand. ([11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=677)) - Nicola reports James's meltdowns cut by eighty percent after learning management tools. ([12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=727)) - Jo's son asked for small classrooms of maybe 10 in a class. ([30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1827)) - Jo's son won the Dux Award at the end of his first year at Education Incorporated. ([32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1957)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Should I get my child diagnosed if I'm worried about labelling them?** A: Nicola says the diagnosis is not a label on the child; it empowers you because you understand what you are dealing with. She cites a family whose home life changed once the father understood the spectrum. ([36:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2204) [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2264)) **Q: Does early therapy make a difference for autistic children?** A: Jo calls early intervention, OTs and play therapy one of the best things they did. Nicola says an intensive dyslexia programme taught James self-regulation tools and cut his meltdowns by eighty percent. ([11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=677) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=727) [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1187)) **Q: Do autistic children lack empathy?** A: Both mothers say no. Jo calls it a stigma and a lie, recounting her son worrying about shop staff feeding their children; Nicola describes empathy that grows more intense as situations get more complex. ([59:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3555) [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3592) [60:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3642) [61:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3706)) **Q: How do I cope with strangers judging my child's meltdowns in public?** A: Nicola advises growing a thick skin. She used humour and carried a card saying people had no idea what she was dealing with, and some people later told her they would never judge a mother again. ([48:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2882) [49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2962) [49:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2982)) **Q: What should I do when a doctor tells me to lower my expectations?** A: Jo found those words both the hardest and in a way the best; removing pressure let her son surprise her. She warns against letting predictions steal your joy and to focus on today. ([21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1313) [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1409) [45:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2723) [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2782)) **Q: What signs showed a school environment wasn't working?** A: Jo describes her son's hand tightening at the school crossing and him coming home saying he was stupid. Nicola describes repeatedly being told by principals the school was not the right environment. ([24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1494) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1617) [55:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3316)) **Q: Should I be fully honest with my autistic child?** A: Jo has a complete honesty policy because children can see through lies; the host says honesty upfront avoids later trauma; Nicola calls it giving them respect. ([71:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4282) [72:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4325) [72:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4337)) **Q: Where do parents of neurodiverse children find support?** A: Jo found Facebook groups and Autism South Africa helpful but felt lonely; Nicola says reaching out to people who had been there was the best thing she did. ([16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=970) [41:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2511)) ### Passage: Radford House insights and the Davis Program [10:22-12:32, 341 words] Note (AI): Nicola links teaching gifted neurodiverse children to her son's turnaround, with the cost and measured effect of an intensive dyslexia programme. Nicola, guest [10:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=622): > And at this stage, I moved to a school called Radford House, where I started teaching. And Radford House is a school for gifted children, and that's where my life actually changed in terms of being a mom and also in terms of being a teacher, because it gave me the insights that I would never have had in any other situation. I realized I was surrounded by neurodiverse kids, but they were all highly, highly gifted, and I realized that very often, not always, but it goes hand in hand. And what these kids, now that they were in an environment where these people got it, and they were given that space to learn the way they needed to learn, they were thriving. But unfortunately for us, I felt James had missed out on so much, and those foundations were still, it wouldn't have been fair to put him in the environment at that point. And I enrolled him in something called the Davis Program, which cost me something ridiculous, like a hundred thousand rand, but it's It changed his life. It, it was a, it was a dyslexia program. It's a huge international program, but they also have, an autism program too that's connected to it. And because of James needing it so intensely, that's why it was so, so expensive. It's normally like a three, four day course. He needed ten days. And also bear in mind, autism cannot, it, it, it's not a curable thing, but when you teach tools on how to manage yourself and how to deal with a lot of the symptoms, that's where the difference happens. And James learned incredible tools. His meltdowns cut by eighty percent, just because he, he learned, like management tools and how to regulate himself a little bit better. He, It just, it unlocked so much that he could function so much better because he could manage himself better and he felt more in control because a lot of it is about feeling overwhelmed and out of control. ### Passage: Diagnosis, lowered expectations and the unexpected stage debut [20:52-23:39, 575 words] Note (AI): Jo describes the diagnosis process, the doctor's words, and how removing pressure let her son surprise her. Jo, guest [20:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1252): > His diagnosis came a little bit later. I think he was maybe four years old at the time. And, you know, I had suspected it. I had done enough research for us, thankfully, you know, Dr. Google was around, not that I'm advocating for Dr. Google, but I could You could research, you could look things up. Facebook was also a thing, so we had joined a number of Facebook support groups and, you know, just talking there. But I didn't have friends I could necessarily talk to. I didn't have mothers in the same space as me. So we went through, met some wonderful, wonderful people from Autism South Africa, and we got a slot to have him tested. And it was actually at Joburg Gen, I think, at the time that we had him tested, and there were different therapists there. And what's it called? The ADAS, that's right. So we did the ADAS. And so we got his diagnosis, went back to his doctor, and I remember so, like it was yesterday, you know, her sitting there and her words were, you know, you need to assume nothing and lower your expectations. And those are very heavy words for parents to hear at the time. And, you know, she actually didn't even mention at the time, she, you know, she didn't go like, oh, your son is on the autism spectrum. I think she sort of had assumed that we understood. And, and eventually my husband was like, what are you actually saying? Like, what is, what, what, what are we saying? What's wrong? And she said, no, well, your son, he's, he's autistic. I mean, it's, it's clear as, clear as day was, was her words. But going back to, you know, lower the, your expectations, it was some of the hardest words I've heard as a parent and some of the, I would say, possibly some of the best words at the same time. Because we do, as parents, we, you know, we hope a lot for our children. There's a lot of pressure we put on them. And at that stage, I took it all away. I took everything away from him as far as the pressure that I would have of him, you know, being on a first team rugby or, or doing anything like that. it just, I just put it aside. And this little kid actually got to grow up in an environment where Where he didn't have parents who were pushing him to do those type of things, and he found it himself. So grade one, he comes to me and he says, Mom, I'm going to do the ice Detford. And my face, my heart, everything just dropped because I thought to myself, oh my goodness, child, you've never been on a stage. I mean, he would sit in the, we would sit in the audience during, you know, concerts in primary school, and he'd be the kid with the headphones on in the back with us watching the other kids. So he'd never been in a concert. Now he's going to get up on stage and do the ice Detford. And he did it. And I think that's one of the great things you can actually learn about this journey is that when they, when you take away pressure and you let kids find it in their own time, they'll surprise you immensely. ### Passage: Jesse chooses a new school and thrives [29:25-32:43, 623 words] Note (AI): Shows a child articulating his own learning needs, the family's school search, the choice to repeat a year and the outcome. Jo, guest [29:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1765): > And then probably one of the pivotal moments in our life happened. Jess said he wanted to go back to school. It had now been, you know, two years, past COVID. And I said to him, I said, well, Jess, tell me, you know, where would you want to go? and this is another thing, you know, is that, with maturity and so much intervention, Jesse was able to really articulate his needs. he's also incredibly bright, and this is, you know, such a juxtaposition to a child who's saying I'm stupid, is I had a child who also had, he just, he, loves history. He has such a passion for it. He was watching documentaries in the History Channel from the age of six. So he has such a, a passion and such an inquisitive mind and, a photographic mind. So, you know, when he's a child saying I'm stupid, but then he can recite, you know, programs and, and, you know, battles, great battles of our, of our, in history, I was like, something just doesn't fit with me. So he had said to me, Mom, I want to go to a school, but I want it to be small classrooms, you know, maybe 10 in a class were actually his words to me. And, you know, this is what I'd like to do. And so that's when we started to investigate. I was nervous to, you know, find a school that was just a home school type of environment because, you know, we'd been so programmed into keep it mainstream, keep it mainstream, keep it mainstream. And that's obviously when we came across Education Incorporated. It was December, everybody was closed, and we managed to meet in January. And I think that was really a turning point for us was all those years of struggling to find the environment where, you know, he would fit in. We walked into a space where he felt comfortable right from the get-go. And I think the difference was that, you know, he wasn't having to conform straight away. It wasn't you know, I don't know, it's so hard to explain, but you just know as a mother, when your child is happy, there is something that your heart just feels different. And I don't know how to explain it. You sleep better. I smile more. You know, your kid's happy, everything changes. And so, yeah, his journey with Edu Inc started then. we, Jesse actually chose to stay down a year. he probably needn't have, but, and this is something else, you know, I've just learned as a mother, he's a end of the year baby, and it was always going to be a struggle for him. He was always going to be young for his age group. And the opportunity to stay back, and it was something we were trying to do for a number of years. But again, when you're in a mainstream system where everything is, you know, cookie cutter shapes and it's in boxes, you really, you know, it would be a miracle to try get them to agree to keep this child down a year. And I just felt that from a maturity point of view, from everything that he That this would be something beneficial. And at the end of the day, that was something proposed to Jess, and that was something he chose. He said, actually, no, I'm tired of struggling. I'd like to, you know, have the upper hand. And that was one of the best decisions we've made for him. He's completely excelled from a child who said, I'm stupid, to a child that won the Dux Award at the end of his first year ### Passage: Nicola on persistence, reaching out and the gift [40:23-42:56, 423 words] Note (AI): Nicola's core advice: early intervention, refusing to give up, reaching out to experienced parents, and reframing autism as a gift. Nicola, guest [40:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2423): > And then also, the early intervention, I was told when James was about four that I need to really prepare well for the future because there's no guarantee that he will be independent. he could very well need support as an adult. He might need to be in a facility where, you know, not, not an extreme facility, but just for an adult who would need support. And he's the furthest thing from that. And that's because I was like a chihuahua. I did not give up. I, I spent what I needed to spend. I went down every rabbit hole. I researched. I got every intervention under the sun and got as much emotional support for him and myself as possible. I leant on the support that I could get, but again, as, as Joe had said, it is very difficult when your child is among, not his peers per se, more like I've got friends, they've got kids, they're similar ages. So you just assume, oh, the kids can play together. No, never worked like that, just because it didn't work. It didn't fit because James Couldn't gel. And it is difficult when you see other kids thriving in the same environment, trying to explain why your child isn't and seeing that it can be very, very easy for certain kids and it's so not easy for others. So again, advocacy, education, and don't give up. Just keep going. Don't give up and reach out, reach out for people who've been there. That's the best thing I ever did. I'd reach out to people who had been there and now in turn, I'm reaching back to others who are at the beginning of their journey. And I've made that a huge part of what I do is to just guide people through this because the only way out is through and you're never fully out of it, but It, it becomes easier. It does. As you grow with it, as you learn, it does become easier and you learn to realize that to a large extent, it's a huge gift. And I know that can sound weird, especially to somebody who has no knowledge of, of the spectrum, but in many ways, it is a huge gift. And I would never want to take that away from my son. I'd want to take away the challenges that came with it and the discomfort and the difficulties, but his brain is incredible. And I embrace it and I love him for that. ### Passage: Stop stealing your joy: the rugby story [45:08-46:31, 288 words] Note (AI): Jo warns parents against pessimistic predictions, using her husband's fear about rugby and how it turned out. Jo, guest [45:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2708): > The one thing I'm going to say is stop stealing your joy, because we were also told that. We were also said, you know, most likely he'll get to 16 and not be able to pack a suitcase for himself. You know, you'll probably still have to pack his bags, et cetera, et cetera. It's probably hard to find a wife. Stop. Stop right now. Think about what's happening today and how you can get your child through that. It's a step. It's a step ladder. It's not about the future. And I think that's one of the things that it just, it crushes us as humans, our spirits. I remember my husband, we had listened to a talk by a well-known radio presenter, also with a son on the spectrum, and he had mentioned how, you know, he could never take his son to rugby games because it was always too loud. And of course, I mean, you know, South Africans, we are the champions, and rugby is very important to us, and it's important to my husband. And I remember leaving that That talk in my husband's face and he looked at me and he's like, I'm like, as a father, it's one of the things I want to do with my son and I'm just, that breaks me right now. It breaks my heart. And at the stage, you know, our child is four, you know, and it breaks my heart that I'll never be able to take my son to a rugby game. And at that point, he stole his joy right there. My son is 13. Let me tell you who was screaming at the rugby, you know, and so don't predict it. ### Passage: The Fourways Mall empathy moment [59:52-61:32, 332 words] Note (AI): A concrete story Jo uses to challenge the claim that autistic people lack empathy. Jo, guest [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3592): > So I came into his room one night and, you know, we'd say goodnight to them, and we'd gone downstairs, watched some TV, and I came back upstairs. And so it's late, and he should be asleep. And I see this little boy, and he's just lying there, and his, you know, his eyes look, teary. And I'm like, Jax, what's, what's wrong? He says, no, mom, you know, I'm thinking about Fourways Mall. And so this will give perspective as well as to when this happened, because Fourways Mall has been developed for quite a while. And he said, you know, with all the developments going on at Fourways Mall at the moment, and, and the building and, and the demolition, I don't think people really want to go shop there anymore. So I'm like, okay, what is this, like, where's this conversation going? I'm thinking, why are we thinking about shopping at night? And he says, well, no, mom, listen, if people don't shop there anymore, then the shops aren't going to do enough business. And if the shops aren't doing enough business, they're not going to have enough money to pay their staff. And if their staff can't, you know, don't get paid and, or, or lose their jobs, how are they going to go home and feed their children? And that's when I sat back and I thought, my child, you are going to change the world, because I don't know how many children who are driving past Fourways Mall and looking at a construction site are thinking about the worker, the teller, the store, you know what I'm saying, the staff, not even the stores, just the staff, and how are they going home to feed their children. And for me, that was really just the moment where I sat back and I just thought, you know, if we could all just be a little bit more like you, the world would be a very different place. ### Quotes > "he would say, Mom, even the walls are loud." >, Jo, guest · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1149) > "often we are hearing our children, but we're not really listening to what that means." >, Jo, guest · [19:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1156) > "you're not giving your child the label, you are empowering yourself because you understand what you're dealing with." >, Nicola, guest · [36:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2210) > "I was like a chihuahua. I did not give up." >, Nicola, guest · [40:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2452) > "the only way out is through and you're never fully out of it, but It, it becomes easier." >, Nicola, guest · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2540) > "The one thing I'm going to say is stop stealing your joy," >, Jo, guest · [45:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2708) > "there's no such thing as a perfect parent." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [47:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2876) > "some have even come to me and said, I will never judge a mother again, because you do not know what they are dealing with." >, Nicola, guest · [49:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2982) > "People just see the autism. They don't see James." >, Nicola, guest · [57:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3421) > "It's a stigma, and it is a lie." >, Jo, guest · [59:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3565) > "if we could all just be a little bit more like you, the world would be a very different place." >, Jo, guest · [61:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3688) > "the Macy is the beautiful part. The Macy is where you grow. The Macy is where you learn." >, Jo, guest · [69:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4183) ### Claims > "I'm also a teacher, so I kind of have the view from both sides, being in the classroom, dealing with it, being a mom dealing with it, and trying to deal with other teachers in other schools dealing with my child." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=62) > "my son's what they refer to as 2E, or twice exceptional, and this means he's on both sides of exceptional. He is intellectually gifted, but he's got dyslexia, which is a learning disability," >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=80) > "James would catnap. So from newborn, he'd sleep 20 minutes, wake up for an hour or so, sleep another 20 minutes, wake up for 10. And this is over 24 hours. So by the time he was six months old, I had such severe postnatal depression, obviously from the sheer exhaustion." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=176) > "she had a balloon in her back room, and James knew he could go into the back room and blow his angry feeling into the balloon and bring it out and let it go. And just those little things, even though he wasn't coping, the fact that somebody had his back meant the world to me." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=331) > "because he's highly intelligent and has a very good memory, they didn't realize he wasn't learning to read, because, you know, you've got the books, and the kids all read, and the teacher reads, and he memorized it." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=374) > "Many neurodiverse children actually don't need a remedial school because it's not about remediating high functioning autism. Sure, yes, he had dyslexia, but that also doesn't require necessarily a remedial school because your learning functions are fine. it's more about intervention." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=458) > "He'd been diagnosed with ADHD at four, and at seven, he got his formal diagnosis. And I searched high and low. I looked at some facilities. They could offer me the world, but for 25,000 Rand a month." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=505) > "I've learned, like with James, the best, that's where he's always thrived, is having a positive male teacher in his corner." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=556) > "Radford House is a school for gifted children, and that's where my life actually changed in terms of being a mom and also in terms of being a teacher, because it gave me the insights that I would never have had in any other situation." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=628) > "I enrolled him in something called the Davis Program, which cost me something ridiculous, like a hundred thousand rand, but it's It changed his life." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=677) > "autism cannot, it, it, it's not a curable thing, but when you teach tools on how to manage yourself and how to deal with a lot of the symptoms, that's where the difference happens." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=709) > "His meltdowns cut by eighty percent, just because he, he learned, like management tools and how to regulate himself a little bit better." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=727) > "My biggest concern is that we still don't have that formal school background and unfortunately the world runs on paperwork." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [14:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=889) > "I think, you know, Have been a mother of a child with a special need, atypical, it's a lonely journey. And so you just feel a little bit more, like you're, you know, you have some sanity in your life when you, when you hear other people talk about it." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parent advocacy · [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=970) > "he would say, Mom, even the walls are loud. And this is, it was something so profound for me, and it's also something I've learned as a mother on this journey, is that often we are hearing our children, but we're not really listening to what that means." >, Jo, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1149) > "we started with therapy and it was one of the best things we did, the early intervention, the OTs, the play therapies, etc. We didn't have a diagnosis at that time." >, Jo, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1187) > "her words were, you know, you need to assume nothing and lower your expectations. And those are very heavy words for parents to hear at the time." >, Jo, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1313) > "I think that's one of the great things you can actually learn about this journey is that when they, when you take away pressure and you let kids find it in their own time, they'll surprise you immensely." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1409) > "there is a lot of benefits to a medical aid. You just don't know it, and there's no one out there telling you about it and how to use your benefits to the maximum." >, Jo, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1436) > "from our therapist point of view, they really pushed and said, you know, try keep him mainstream, try keep him mainstream. There's a lot of stigma at the time that if we didn't, we'd never get him back into mainstream." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1465) > "We had incredible teachers, and it wasn't for a lack of people trying, the effort, the energy, everything was there. But you're in a system that you're just fighting it the whole time." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1494) > "That's where Jesse started to say he was stupid. You know, my son would come home from school and say, I'm stupid. No mother ever wants to hear those words out of their, out of their child's mouth." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1617) > "And I gave him the next three months off. We just were kids again. I felt like we need to unlearn what the anxiety that he had around school and the environment. And we did that. And then we homeschooled for one year. We had to go right back to basics." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1736) > "Mom, I want to go to a school, but I want it to be small classrooms, you know, maybe 10 in a class were actually his words to me." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1827) > "He's completely excelled from a child who said, I'm stupid, to a child that won the Dux Award at the end of his first year at Education Incorporated." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1957) > "when he felt like he was being heard, when he felt like he could have the conversations with the teachers that he wasn't able to have before, that's significant." >, Jo, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=1974) > "I know that in my experience, change is a big problem. Gray areas are a big problem. And if you prep appropriately and have the meaningful conversations in advance, it helps with that sense of overwhelm." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2033) > "I think what is very useful that you've said, Joe, is that it's having a voice, understanding yourself, and being able to express your needs, because that'll give you a sense of control in the environments." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parent advocacy · [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2068) > "Imagine a spot within a huge globe, and you, you have different people in those spots. It's not just a linear, a one out of ten or a, an eight out of ten. It's within this globe because there's so many unique characteristics." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [35:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2113) > "one of the big things people say is, I don't want to give my child a label. But you need to understand you're not giving your child the label, you are empowering yourself because you understand what you're dealing with." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [36:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2204) > "All the things that used to frustrate the father so much and make him so unhappy and cause so many arguments and so many fights, as soon as he realized why, and he understood the spectrum better, their whole family life changed because there was a reason." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Autism diagnosis journeys · [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2264) > "James's trick would be to close his eyes during class if he was listening and trying to take in what the teacher was saying. but he would just get kicked out because he's apparently, you know, sleeping in class." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [38:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2338) > "And all I would get is Don't make excuses for him. But I wasn't. I was advocating. I was educating. And another thing of, word of advice I have is to advocate." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Parent advocacy · [39:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2377) > "I was told when James was about four that I need to really prepare well for the future because there's no guarantee that he will be independent." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [40:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2425) > "So again, advocacy, education, and don't give up. Just keep going. Don't give up and reach out, reach out for people who've been there. That's the best thing I ever did." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Parent advocacy · [41:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2511) > "We expect you to be a decent human being, be able to relate to other human beings, understand your influence on the space around you, but as to what you are going to achieve, that's entirely up to you to do that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parental self-care · [43:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2630) > "first and foremost is breathe. We are so, so easy to criticize ourselves on this journey, and really, you are going to do the job. You are doing the best you can." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [44:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2667) > "Stop. Stop right now. Think about what's happening today and how you can get your child through that. It's a step. It's a step ladder. It's not about the future." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [45:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2723) > "And at that point, he stole his joy right there. My son is 13. Let me tell you who was screaming at the rugby, you know, and so don't predict it." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2782) > "I forgot that as a parent, we need to thrive too. So I didn't practice self-care. I didn't practice any of those things. And I found myself in a position where I didn't know who I was anymore." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2828) > "another word of advice I would give is grow a thick skin, because when you are out there, and I'm not talking about in the schools, I'm just talking about going to the shops or a birthday party, you're going to have a lot of people criticize your parenting," >, Nicola, guest · topic: Stigma and public judgement · [48:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2882) > "I'd actually carry a, like a little sort of pseudo business card that I'd made for myself that just said, you have no idea what we're dealing with. Please leave me to handle my son in the way I know best." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Stigma and public judgement · [49:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=2962) > "for us, it's dealing with, institutions that don't know how to deal with children, or even adults for that matter, who are neurodiverse. And I'm talking about hospitals and airports." >, Jo, guest · topic: Stigma and public judgement · [51:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3068) > "now, you know, how do we expect schools to know better when environments who are supposed to deal with neurodiverse children in treating them haven't even got that, got that right." >, Jo, guest · topic: Stigma and public judgement · [53:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3202) > "every time I get called in and sit down at that principal's table and be told, I'm sorry, but we are not the environment for your child. You need to make another plan." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Finding the right school · [55:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3316) > "I know that I've got this beautiful, bright, kind, very special little boy, and people won't see it. People just see the autism. They don't see James." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Stigma and public judgement · [56:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3411) > "his response was, I'd love to, but I promised my cousin I'd take her for lunch. And what 19-year-old turns down an opportunity like that to take his 13-year-old cousin for lunch, but he made her a promise," >, Nicola, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [57:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3450) > "a lot of people say, oh, people on the autism spectrum or, they have no empathy. You know, they show no empathy. And that is, that is something that we hear all the time. No, that's not right. It's a stigma, and it is a lie." >, Jo, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [59:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3555) > "if people don't shop there anymore, then the shops aren't going to do enough business. And if the shops aren't doing enough business, they're not going to have enough money to pay their staff." >, Jo, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [60:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3642) > "I also see it as kind of this circle of empathy that goes outwards, and you've got the immediate empathy for a situation right here and right now, and I find that the more complicated it gets, the more intense the empathy is." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [61:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3706) > "I need you guys to be okay because I know that this makes you happy and this is what you need and, and this is, this is a good life for you." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [64:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3876) > "Mom, I've lost a lot of people that I love. I've lost both my grandpas, I've lost my great aunt, my godmother. I know what it means to lose somebody you love. Why would I cry over a fictional character that doesn't exist?" >, Nicola, guest · topic: Empathy in autistic children · [65:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=3958) > "Edu Inc is a normal school. We are, you know, a high-achieving school, a highly academic school. But because we are committed to having relationships with human beings, we can see who they are as human beings and are prepared to listen to them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Finding the right school · [67:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4038) > "one of the jobs that we have as primary caretakers, as parents and as educators, is to teach them the appropriate expression of mad, sad, glad, and afraid because they are feeling them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [67:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4074) > "they need to learn to socialize, and what becomes through osmosis to a lot of us is something that has to be laid out." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Early intervention and therapy · [68:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4111) > "My son would be the person that I look up to in life because he has taught me the most." >, Jo, guest · topic: Parental self-care · [70:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4204) > "So we have a complete honesty policy in our home. You know, we have told Jesse the truth from day one as far as, you know, if he's had questions." >, Jo, guest · topic: Honesty with children · [71:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4282) > "unwiring through not being honest is going to take a lot longer and a lot more trauma. So the honesty upfront, the programming upfront, the expectation set upfront makes our lives a lot easier," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Honesty with children · [72:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4325) > "it's also giving them the respect they deserve by not packaging things in pretty boxes, because they don't want that." >, Nicola, guest · topic: Honesty with children · [72:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1381960_high.mp3#t=4337) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this conversation between Gershom Aitchison (Edu Inc Headmaster) and two mothers Nicola and Jo who have children on the autism spectrum. Nicola's son is 19 and was diagnosed around age 7. Jo's son is 13 and was diagnosed around age 4. They discussed their journeys raising neurodiverse children, including the challenges with getting diagnoses, finding supportive school environments, dealing with public perceptions and stigma, and pivotal moments of seeing their children's empathy and potential. Key themes included the importance of early intervention and consistent therapy, being a tireless advocate for your child, finding other parents to connect with, and having no expectations except giving your child the tools to be a decent human being. They acknowledge there is no single recipe for success given each child's uniqueness. The mothers agree this difficult journey has been a privilege that has shaped them profoundly. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Teen Vaping: Edu Inc probes research into long-term health effects | Tendani Mulaudzi - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2023-10-24-teen-vaping-edu-inc-probes-research/ - Date: 2023-10-24 (as at 2023-10-24) - Guest: Tendani Mulaudzi - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Teen vaping and addiction, Vaping research and legislation, Parental responsibility, Vape accessibility, School discipline and learning, Anxiety and belonging - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1373047 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Tendani Mulaudzi - freelancing journalist · Business Day - Freelancing journalist for the Business Day who wrote an article on research into the long-term effects of vaping; has some experience in counseling and is in recovery herself. In their own words: > "So I have some experience in counseling, and I've seen that many of the kids that I've counseled have left rehab and started vaping despite knowing how addictive it is, and that's what piqued my interest." [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=76) > "I am in recovery myself and I know with addiction there's obsession, constant obsession. How am I going to get my next fix?" [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1045) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Edu Inc headmaster Gershom Aitchison and Jacqueline Aitchison talk with journalist Tendani Mulaudzi about teen vaping. Tendani describes a Manchester Metropolitan University study of vaping's long-term effects, interviews with teens, and legislation abroad. Jacqueline reports that vaping has caused most of the school's suspensions and argues that teen addiction is lifelong. The speakers criticise parents who allow vaping at home, discuss easy retail and delivery access, describe nicotine withdrawal disrupting learning, and set out the school's one-week suspension rule. They close by urging parents to read the article and watch The Big Vape. **Key ideas** - Tendani reports that long-term effects are unknown, and that an 18-month Manchester Metropolitan University study is testing smokers, non-smokers and vapers. ([00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=50) [13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=818)) - Jacqueline and Tendani connect teen vaping to anxiety and the need to fit in; Tendani cites a UCT finding that 30 to 40 percent use it to cope. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=172) [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=177) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=197) [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=772) [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=782)) - Jacqueline argues nicotine addiction formed in adolescence becomes a decades-long battle. ([04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=288) [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=329) [05:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=337)) - Gershom argues vaping must be seen differently from smoking because it is odourless, easy to hide and delivers nicotine directly. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=378) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=418) [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=431)) - The speakers reject the 'under my roof' approach, saying it cannot contain vaping and creates double standards. ([08:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=516) [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=529) [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=564) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=575) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=584) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1032)) - Tendani and Jacqueline describe easy access: no ID checks at stores and vapes offered through fast food delivery. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=614) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=655) [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1255)) - Jacqueline says addicted teens cannot get through a school day, which drives deception and makes learning impossible. ([15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=920) [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=946) [15:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=959)) **Lessons** - Gershom and Jacqueline hold that legislation cannot replace parenting; parents must set and enforce boundaries. ([11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=668) [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=676) [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1370)) - Jacqueline warns that allowing vaping at home tends to push the habit into school and into hiding. ([15:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=959) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1032) [19:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1197)) - Tendani suggests teens may ignore warnings because they feel invincible, so warnings alone may not work. ([12:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=755)) - Tendani flags that vapes can be used for illegal substances such as marijuana, which parents should watch for. ([14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=877)) - Jacqueline recommends parents read Tendani's article and watch The Big Vape with their teenagers. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1417)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers, school leaders and teachers facing vaping on campus, and anyone wanting a South African view of teen vaping, access and addiction alongside current research and legislation. **Facts stated in the episode** - Manchester Metropolitan University has started an 18-month study into vaping's long-term effects. ([00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=50)) - A University of Cape Town study found about 30 to 40 percent of teens used vaping as an anxiety coping mechanism. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=197)) - Tendani gives the average starting age for vaping as 15, with about 27% vaping in the country. ([11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=715)) - Jacqueline says vaping has been the source of most suspensions in the school's community. ([02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=133)) - At Edu Inc, a first vaping offence brings a one-week suspension and confiscation of the vape. ([19:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1143)) - Tendani's article appeared in Business Day on 16 October. ([23:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1394)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is there research on the long-term health effects of vaping?** A: Tendani says Manchester Metropolitan University has started an 18-month study comparing smokers, non-smokers and vapers, including fitness tests, but it is early and results are not yet known. ([00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=50)) **Q: Why do teenagers start vaping?** A: Tendani and Jacqueline point to fitting in and anxiety. Tendani cites a UCT study finding 30 to 40 percent of teens used vaping to cope with anxiety. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=177) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=197) [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=772)) **Q: At what age do South African teens start vaping?** A: Tendani says the average age of beginning to vape is 15, and metrics stand at about 27% vaping in the country. ([11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=715)) **Q: Is it okay to let my teen vape at home where I can see them?** A: Jacqueline calls this terrifying and says vaping can never be contained within the home. Tendani says permission at home did not stop her drinking outside it as a teenager. ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=529) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=584) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1032)) **Q: How does vaping affect a teenager at school?** A: Jacqueline says addicted teens cannot get through a school day without nicotine, leading to lying and frequent bathroom trips. Gershom says apparent tummy aches may be nicotine withdrawal. ([15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=920) [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=946) [15:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=959) [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=992)) **Q: How easy is it for teens to buy vapes?** A: Tendani says the teens she interviewed had never been ID'd at store counters, and Jacqueline notes vapes are advertised and delivered through fast food delivery services. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=614) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=655)) **Q: What happens at Edu Inc if a pupil is caught vaping?** A: Gershom says a first offence means a week's suspension, confiscation of the vape and a conversation with the parents. ([18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1108) [19:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1143)) **Q: Which countries are regulating vaping?** A: Tendani says the UK is in talks about banning disposable vapes, France plans to do so, and New Zealand, Germany and Australia have passed various laws. ([03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=229)) ### Passage: Teen interviewee vaping to fit in and cope [02:52-04:04, 199 words] Note (AI): Links a first-hand interview, the UCT anxiety finding and international legislation in one sequence from the journalist. Tendani Mulaudzi, guest [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=172): > So one of the girls that I interviewed, obviously I cannot use her name, but she is a 17-year-old who left long-term rehab after a year and went to a new school, and she had to use vaping as a way, firstly, to fit in, and secondly, for her anxiety, because there was a lot of stuff going on at home, and she says that the vaping made her feel less anxious. So in a study done by the University of Cape Town on the subject, they found that about 30 to 40 percent of teens used vaping as an anxiety coping mechanism. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=208): > I think that might speak to a bigger problem in our society. And I wonder if it's not just a South African problem, but maybe a more global problem as well. Tendani Mulaudzi, guest [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=218): > For sure, yes. I think that around the world they are seeing these patterns amongst teens. And in that, a lot of countries have actually passed legislation on vaping. So the UK is in talks about banning vaping, disposable vapes specifically. France has announced that they are also planning to do so. And then New Zealand, Germany, and Australia have passed various laws around vaping. ### Passage: Why teen brains make vaping addiction lifelong [04:48-06:17, 287 words] Note (AI): Jacqueline sets out the core worry about brain development, lifelong addiction and parental complacency, ending with a concrete example from her class. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=288): > I think for me, one of the bigger concerns, specifically, and I'm referring now to obviously to teenagers, because that's who we are dealing with in this. I don't believe any e-cigarette was ever intended for a teenager. I think they were intended for adults, but the reality of the situation is exactly what you said, Tendani, about the, it's cool, it's chic, it looks good, it tastes good, so I want to fit in with this. And the fear that I have over this whole thing, or the concern that I have, is that Other than the addictive side of things, it's what's happening in that teenager's brain in terms of what's being mapped while they are teenagers and all of that mapping is taking place. That level of addiction, this is something they're going to fight for the rest of their lives. This is not something that they can just pick up and put down. This is a long-term, decades-long addiction issue that's actually being instilled in teenagers, and I think people are, because they have this perception of, oh, no, it's not as bad as drugs, it's not as bad as cigarettes, they are conveniently pulling the rug over that side of this. Well, what about the addiction that's now in place? And as you were saying in your article, the average age for teen vaping is 15. I was chatting to my grade nine class about this last week and coming to do the podcast on vaping and just chatting to them about what their thoughts were. And one of my grade nines said to me that she has a friend who's 13, whose parents bought her the vape for her birthday. 13. ### Passage: Host's two main issues with vaping [06:18-08:36, 447 words] Note (AI): Gershom argues vaping differs from smoking in concealment and delivery, and calls for parents, vendors and schools to share responsibility. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=378): > I think that brings up one of the two main issues that I have with vaping. First of all, I think it's irresponsible of parents to do that kind of thing because they're sending the wrong message to their children. You're giving them a tobacco product. Nicotine is derived from that tobacco, and there's a reason that globally tobacco products are banned for sale to people under the age of eighteen. I think the second issue that I have is that we are looking at vaping in through the same lens as we do tobacco smoking. And while there are similar traits because of the nicotine product, the way that it's delivered, the way that the kids have accessibility to it, the fact that you could smell a smoker from a mile off, but you can't with vapers, we are going to, while looking at it through the same lens, realizes that, realize that it's an entirely different thing that we are combating at this point. The fact that kids can hide it in their sleeves, it can be odorless. It's just, you know, directly delivering nicotine straight to the brain, a teenage brain, and we know that nicotine addiction in teens is going to be a lifelong battle. Coming back to the parents, and something that I noted on the big vape, I think that it takes a village to raise a child, and while legislation can be put in place to stop the sale of nicotine products to kids under the age of 18, and there certainly needs to be responsibility from people and vendors that are selling it, and they need to be strict about it, there also needs to be parenting happening, and schools also need to be talking about the dangers of vape. I remember when I was at school, the way to discourage us from smoking was they brought in a whole lot of different lungs. And showcased the gross black tar lungs on, on stage. And that was meant to be, and it certainly was. I didn't want my lungs looking like that. But after living in Joburg, they probably do. But what are we going to do about vaping? Because there's such a cool factor about it. And one of the things that came out in the big vape was the 23-year-old that was hospitalized for vaping, saying, I'm not ready to give it up because it doesn't suit my lifestyle at this point. We have a lot of things to deal with here, not just the stigma of smoking. There's a, a lifestyle and an acceptance, a passive acceptance from parents, which shouldn't be in there as well. ### Passage: The 'under my roof' double standard [08:36-10:39, 417 words] Note (AI): All three speakers challenge the permissive home rule, with Tendani drawing on her own teenage drinking and unchecked retail access. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=516): > I think that's part of the, the, the challenge that parents are facing, because it's such a complicated issue. So the default, and again, you'll know this, Gersh, because we've heard this so many times in the office, where the parent says, As long as they're doing it under my roof with me under, you know, that I can see what's going on, then it's fine. That is terrifying for me. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=537): > So let's put it in perspective. Nicotine is addictive. There's a reason why there's an age restriction on it. So, and it's addictive to the point that you can't not do it. Would you allow your children to drink vodka or whiskey to the point that they are addicted to it and can't live without it as long as they're doing it under your roof at the age of 13? Would you allow them to do cocaine, which is addictive as long as it's under the roof? You know, it... Jacqueline Aitchison, host [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=561): > Well, it's... How long is that piece of string? Because if you... If your 15-year-old is sitting vaping with you and you're now watching the rugby and dad's having a beer and the child says, can I have a beer with you? And he says, no, don't be ridiculous, you're 15. And he's going, but I can vape. So can we talk about that double standard? Tendani Mulaudzi, guest [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=578): > For sure. And I think... You know, I think about my teenagehood and drinking. I started drinking at fourteen and it was the norm. And parents would say, as long as it's done under our roof and, you know, they can have a few drinks at a braai because we are able to see them, but we still went out and illegally got alcohol. You know, it doesn't stop me from leaving the house and doing it on my own. It actually enables me further. And the fact that you can also just walk up to a counter at any local grocery store and buy a vape, you know, these kids that I interviewed, neither of them had ever been ID'd when they go to the counter at spa or pick and pay or wherever. And they look young, you know, I, I feel like there should be some sort of discernment from the cashier that this person is not meant to be doing this. But again, it makes no difference if the parents are aware and are allowing it because these kids will still do it. By the way. ### Passage: Nicotine addiction during the school day [15:20-17:57, 510 words] Note (AI): Explains how home vaping drives withdrawal, deception and lost learning at school, including Tendani's perspective from her own recovery. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=920): > It's a tricky one, and I'm going to go back to the sore point of when parents are saying that it's fine within the home, as long as it's with them. And the reality is that that can never be contained just within the home and under the roof of the home. That's not a realistic expectation. Gershom Aitchison, host [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=938): > Yeah, Tendani touched on that itself, yeah. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=940): > And hugely because of the level of nicotine addiction means that A fifteen, whoever it is who's vaping, they can't get through a six or seven or eight hour school day without their vape at that point. They need the nicotine in between. I mean, they're barely getting through a three hour exam if they are that addicted to the nicotine. So what's happening then is they are being forced into a position of becoming duplicitous, lying about it, they're being sneaky, they're doing all these things that we'd really rather not be having at school. And quite frankly, the parent who has said it's fine to do it at home has almost enabled that behavior because the protection has been lifted of, no, you are 15, I don't care what your friends are doing, you will not. And if I find you doing it, there will be consequences. Gershom Aitchison, host [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=987): > And then we have kids who halfway through the school day are feeling sick and nauseous. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=992): > Exactly. Gershom Aitchison, host [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=992): > And it's a tummy ache, and then it's not really, it's nicotine withdrawal because they need to have a hit. It's nicotine withdrawal, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [16:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=997): > or it's the child who can't get through a single lesson without going to the bathroom because, of course, you know, as adults, we're not very bright in the mind of a teenager, so we don't recognize the pattern of every lesson having to sneak off to the bathroom. And as adults, we're too stupid to work out all the hiding places for the vapes and things. But the point is they've almost been forced into this level of duplicitousness because For every hour of the weekend or, or from when I get home until the next morning, it's fine for me to be vaping. So I can sit and vape all day, but that means I cannot get through it at school. There is never an instance where that's going to be contained within the home. Tendani Mulaudzi, guest [17:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1037): > I also wonder, you know, just based on addiction and what addiction, what addiction looks like. I am in recovery myself and I know with addiction there's obsession, constant obsession. How am I going to get my next fix? How am I going to Get through the day and to sit in a lesson as a child and try to concentrate when those thoughts are going through your mind must be, it must be impossible for them to actually learn anything. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1068): > It is impossible. In terms of what your brain's doing at that point and which part of your brain is active at that point, it is impossible. There is no way they are taking in what the teacher's teaching. ### Passage: How Edu Inc sanctions vaping [18:28-20:21, 383 words] Note (AI): Describes the school's one-week suspension policy and the difficulty when parents condone vaping at home. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1108): > I think what we need to start off as a departure point is that schools don't like expelling kids and they don't like suspending them. The, the magic wand for all of us is that the kids are behaving, there's no drugs, alcohol, bullying, vaping on campus, and that the kids are at school doing what they're supposed to do. Suspension is not the outcome we want, but there has to be a sanction for breaking the rules. And most schools just classify vapes directly under their code of conduct where it comes to tobacco use and tobacco products, and we've certainly followed the same stringent rules when it comes to that. If you get caught with a vape, first time, you're suspended for a week. The vape gets confiscated, and obviously there's a conversation with the parents. Fortunately, we have cameras everywhere in the school, so it's never really an issue when it comes to owning up to it. But as you say, I'm curious to know what those conversations are like at home if the parents do condone it, and how are they going to do it? Are the kids going to school with a nicotine patch now to get them through the day so they can vape when they get home again? So at Edu Inc, if a child is caught vaping, then they're suspended for a week. We call the parents in, and the conversation is pretty much around what we're having right now. It's just taking away from why they're here, and that is the learning, and it's disrupting that learning for themselves, and it's certainly not the outcome that we want. We are here to study, we're here to learn, and we're here to be educated. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1187): > Yeah, it's a very difficult situation because the misinformation has resulted in such a lot of confusion around the safety, you know, as we've discussed. And essentially, if a parent is allowing vaping in the home, and then the child's being suspended for vaping at school, the parent is inherently complicit in the suspension. So how do you impose sanctions on the child, but the parent's going, oh, well, we got caught? It's a very difficult situation when you're trying to create a community that partners in the education of a child. ### Quotes > "Not cigarettes, not drugs, not alcohol, not any other issue, but vaping." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=138) > "This is a long-term, decades-long addiction issue that's actually being instilled in teenagers," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [05:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=337) > "the fact that you could smell a smoker from a mile off, but you can't with vapers," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=418) > "So can we talk about that double standard?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=575) > "Yeah, we can't parent by legislation." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=676) > "And for a teenager, that's paramount. That's, that's worth more than anything else, just to be accepted." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=782) > "they would rather ruin their bodies and ruin their lives to fit in, despite knowing better." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · [13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=801) > "There is never an instance where that's going to be contained within the home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1032) > "We are here to study, we're here to learn, and we're here to be educated." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1184) > "Well, as we said, it takes a village to raise a child," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1356) ### Claims > "There's a study that has been started by the Manchester Metropolitan University in the UK. it's an 18-month study that goes into the long-term effects of vaping." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vaping research and legislation · [00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=50) > "So I have some experience in counseling, and I've seen that many of the kids that I've counseled have left rehab and started vaping despite knowing how addictive it is, and that's what piqued my interest." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=76) > "even within our own school community, it has been the source of most of our suspensions, vaping. Not cigarettes, not drugs, not alcohol, not any other issue, but vaping." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=133) > "Is there a correlation between vaping and the increase in anxiety that we're seeing in our teens? But as I say, that could be a whole topic by itself." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Anxiety and belonging · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=157) > "she is a 17-year-old who left long-term rehab after a year and went to a new school, and she had to use vaping as a way, firstly, to fit in, and secondly, for her anxiety," >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Anxiety and belonging · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=177) > "So in a study done by the University of Cape Town on the subject, they found that about 30 to 40 percent of teens used vaping as an anxiety coping mechanism." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Anxiety and belonging · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=197) > "So the UK is in talks about banning vaping, disposable vapes specifically. France has announced that they are also planning to do so. And then New Zealand, Germany, and Australia have passed various laws around vaping." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vaping research and legislation · [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=229) > "I think what I remember hearing on the documentaries that the inside of your lungs has a surface area of a rugby field, for example, and when you're starting to reduce that, you're reducing your ability to actually take in the oxygen that you need." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Health effects · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=261) > "I don't believe any e-cigarette was ever intended for a teenager. I think they were intended for adults, but the reality of the situation is exactly what you said," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=296) > "That level of addiction, this is something they're going to fight for the rest of their lives. This is not something that they can just pick up and put down." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=329) > "And one of my grade nines said to me that she has a friend who's 13, whose parents bought her the vape for her birthday." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=369) > "First of all, I think it's irresponsible of parents to do that kind of thing because they're sending the wrong message to their children. You're giving them a tobacco product." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=382) > "The fact that kids can hide it in their sleeves, it can be odorless. It's just, you know, directly delivering nicotine straight to the brain, a teenage brain, and we know that nicotine addiction in teens is going to be a lifelong battle." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=431) > "there also needs to be parenting happening, and schools also need to be talking about the dangers of vape." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=466) > "where the parent says, As long as they're doing it under my roof with me under, you know, that I can see what's going on, then it's fine. That is terrifying for me." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=529) > "If your 15-year-old is sitting vaping with you and you're now watching the rugby and dad's having a beer and the child says, can I have a beer with you?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=564) > "I started drinking at fourteen and it was the norm. And parents would say, as long as it's done under our roof and, you know, they can have a few drinks at a braai because we are able to see them, but we still went out and illegally got alcohol." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Parental responsibility · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=584) > "these kids that I interviewed, neither of them had ever been ID'd when they go to the counter at spa or pick and pay or wherever." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vape accessibility · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=614) > "if fast food delivery merchants are advertising these products and you can actually get them via your fast food delivery, what chance do the parents have of actually protecting?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Vape accessibility · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=655) > "But by the same measure, I want to say we can't abdicate the parenting. The parenting is still, it, it is still our job to protect the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=668) > "And like Jax said, it starts at 15. That's the average age of beginning to vape. And as the years go, go higher, you know, metrics stand at about 27% of them vaping in the country." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=715) > "Unfortunately, also with teens, despite warnings on things, they still continue to do the thing that's bad for them because of that feeling that they're invincible, they're going to live forever." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [12:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=755) > "they're surrounded by social media that is constantly reinforcing that belief. And that they have to be vaping to be cool and in with the crowd and, you know, accepted." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Anxiety and belonging · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=772) > "I think they're more focused on the physical effects, but I definitely think that there should be more studies into the addiction and the levels of addiction." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vaping research and legislation · [13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=818) > "she said that this is actually one of the biggest dangers of vaping is that it can be used for illegal substances within the vape," >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vape accessibility · [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=877) > "they can't get through a six or seven or eight hour school day without their vape at that point. They need the nicotine in between." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=946) > "So what's happening then is they are being forced into a position of becoming duplicitous, lying about it, they're being sneaky," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [15:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=959) > "And it's a tummy ache, and then it's not really, it's nicotine withdrawal because they need to have a hit." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=992) > "I am in recovery myself and I know with addiction there's obsession, constant obsession. How am I going to get my next fix?" >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Teen vaping and addiction · [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1045) > "I think what we need to start off as a departure point is that schools don't like expelling kids and they don't like suspending them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1108) > "If you get caught with a vape, first time, you're suspended for a week. The vape gets confiscated, and obviously there's a conversation with the parents." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School discipline and learning · [19:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1143) > "essentially, if a parent is allowing vaping in the home, and then the child's being suspended for vaping at school, the parent is inherently complicit in the suspension." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [19:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1197) > "So instead of walking out onto the balcony to smoke, she can just smoke her vape at her desk." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vape accessibility · [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1255) > "I feel that that aspect of vaping is something that needs to be considered in terms of the long-term effects, because smoking isn't done as regularly as vaping in a person's day." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vape accessibility · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1281) > "I think that the study is very important because it will allow countries and governments to form opinions or form legislation around vaping." >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vaping research and legislation · [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1320) > "It takes good parenting to set the boundaries and understand what the expectation of the home values are, and parents are vigilant about this and not condoning it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1370) > "So my article was written in the business day on the 16th of October. So there is a link to the article on the businesslive.co.za website," >, Tendani Mulaudzi, guest · topic: Vaping research and legislation · [23:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1394) > "I would strongly encourage them to go and read the article and possibly even to go and watch the big vape with their teenagers on Netflix." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parental responsibility · [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1373047_high.mp3#t=1417) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Electronic cigarettes, also known as vapes or e-cigarettes, have become popular since they were first developed in the early 2000s. Whether it be in the comfort of their own homes or on the patio of a restaurant or office block, adults and adolescents alike are choosing to vape, leaving only a fruit-scented aroma in their wake. How is this impacting our children and schools? Connect with Tendani · Business Day article on vaping research · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Coding education in South Africa - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2023-10-17-coding-education-in-south-africa/ - Date: 2023-10-17 (as at 2023-10-17) - Guest: Cameron Busch - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Coding curriculum access, Resilience through coding, Unplugged early learning robotics, Cross-curricular teaching, Teachers learning alongside students, School coding solutions - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1370729 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Cameron Busch - Lead Coding and Robotics Facilitator · iStore Education - Trains teachers and students on Apple's Everyone Can Code curriculum from early learners to higher ed; was a teacher before joining iStore Education after going through its coding program. In their own words: > "What I do at ISO Education is I train teachers as well as students on coding and robotics, the curriculum that Apple offers, which is the Everyone Can Code curriculum, ranging from early learners all the way through to higher ed." [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=29) > "I think what helps me is I was a teacher myself before working at ISO Education, and, you know, you mentioned that teachers are overburdened, and it was clearly evident to me that yes, we are." [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=528) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Gershom Aitchison talks with Cameron Busch of iStore Education about bringing coding and robotics into South African schools. Cameron, a former teacher who now trains teachers and students on Apple's free Everyone Can Code curriculum, describes how the curriculum and teacher guides work, a progression from unplugged Indy robotics to the Sphero Bolt and Swift Playgrounds, and how coding builds resilience and supports cross-curricular teaching. The host frames code as a language for giving instructions. They close on advice for teachers, the delayed Department of Education rollout, and how parents and schools can get support. **Key ideas** - Cameron says the Everyone Can Code curriculum is free but requires an iPad or MacBook, and its teacher guide includes solutions and extra puzzles to support new teachers. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=97) [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=101) [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=121)) - Cameron argues coding's repeated trial and error builds resilience and grit, which become life skills rather than coding skills; the host adds that trial and error is the curriculum's value. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=97) [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=153) [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=200) [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=215)) - The host argues code in its simplest form is a language for giving instructions, and that learning it should improve maths and clarity in English writing. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=335) [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=345) [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=442)) - Cameron describes a scaffolded progression: unplugged, picture-based Indy robotics for Grade R to 3 or 4, then the Sphero Bolt with Everyone Can Code commands, then Swift Playgrounds and higher ed content. ([04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=272) [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=783) [13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=800) [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=830) [14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=883) [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=911)) - From his own teaching, Cameron says coding and robotics meant repeating content less, gave instant feedback on gaps, and excited learners, improving retention. ([08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=528) [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=558) [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=589) [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=604)) - Cameron advises teachers to learn with their students rather than acting as custodians of knowledge; the host agrees that saying 'I don't know' is powerful. ([16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=975) [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=985) [16:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=989)) - Cameron says iStore Education tailors offerings after visiting a school and works alongside existing Chromebooks and Microsoft tools, since learners won't enter a single-ecosystem world. ([17:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1056) [18:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1139) [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1166) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1217)) **Scaffolded coding and robotics progression** ([04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=272) [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=310) [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=783) [13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=800) [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=830) [14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=883) [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=911)) 1. Early learners (Grade R to 3, even 4): unplugged Indy robot with floor colour mats and picture-based puzzle cards, no screen time. 2. Intermediate phase: move to the Sphero Bolt, a robotic ball with an LED screen. 3. Use the Bolt alongside Everyone Can Code to reinforce commands, conditional statements and for loops. 4. Then move to Swift Playgrounds and higher ed offerings for more technical content. **Lessons** - Cameron suggests teachers new to coding can rely on the supplied teacher guide, which includes solutions and extra puzzles. ([02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=121)) - Cameron advises teachers to become students themselves on a coding journey rather than trying to know everything. ([16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=975) [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=985) [16:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=989)) - Cameron recommends intertwining robotics with coding lessons when teaching concepts like conditionals and loops. ([15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=911)) - Cameron argues teachers who acquire coding skills will be in demand given the Department of Education's push. ([16:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1016) [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1021)) - Cameron says schools need not discard existing Chromebooks or Microsoft tools to add iPads for coding. ([20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1217)) **Who it's for:** South African teachers, school leaders and parents considering introducing coding and robotics, especially those unsure where to start with young learners or worried about the extra load on teachers. **Facts stated in the episode** - Cameron says the Everyone Can Code curriculum is free but needs an iPad or MacBook. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=101)) - Cameron says the Indy can be used from Grade R to Grade 3, even Grade 4. ([13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=800)) - Cameron says the drafted Department of Education coding document has been delayed, he thinks, until 2025. ([16:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1016)) - Cameron cites a statistic that only nineteen percent of Grade 4 learners can read for understanding. ([18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1098)) - The Sphero Bolt is a small robotic sphere with an LED screen, per Cameron. ([14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=883)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Does Apple's Everyone Can Code curriculum cost money?** A: Cameron says the curriculum itself is free, though you need an iPad or MacBook to access it, and no textbooks need to be bought. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=101)) **Q: How can young children learn coding without screen time?** A: Cameron describes the Indy robot, used with colour mats on the floor and picture-based puzzle cards, suitable from Grade R to Grade 3 or 4. ([04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=272) [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=783) [13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=800)) **Q: Why is coding said to build resilience in kids?** A: Cameron says children keep trying a coding problem until they get it right, building resilience and grit that become skills for life. ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=200) [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=215)) **Q: Does coding help with subjects other than computer science?** A: The host argues coding helps problem-solving in maths and makes learners clearer writers in English; Cameron calls coding cross-curricular and illustrates with a sandwich-instructions example. ([02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=138) [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=442) [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=452)) **Q: What should a teacher do if they don't know how to code?** A: Cameron advises learning with the students and becoming the student yourself instead of trying to be the custodian of knowledge. ([16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=975) [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=985)) **Q: When is coding becoming compulsory in South African schools?** A: Cameron says the Department of Education had a drafted document that he thinks has been delayed until 2025. ([16:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1016)) **Q: How do parents or schools contact iStore Education about coding?** A: Cameron says to contact education at iStore.co.za; for schools, the team visits before quoting to tailor an offering. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1059) [18:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1139)) **Q: Do schools have to switch entirely to Apple devices to use this coding programme?** A: Cameron says no: Google apps work on iPad, and schools are not asked to throw away Chromebooks or Microsoft software. ([20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1217)) ### Passage: Free curriculum, trial and error, and resilience [01:37-03:38, 485 words] Note (AI): Explains what the Everyone Can Code curriculum costs and includes, and why Cameron sees coding's trial and error as building resilience and transferable skills. Cameron Busch, guest [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=97): > So the nice thing about the curriculum that Apple offers, the Everyone Can Code curriculum, the curriculum itself is free. If you want to have access to the curriculum, yes, we do need a device. We need an iPad or a MacBook. But to access the curriculum, you don't need to go out and purchase textbooks. It comes out with a learner guide as well as a teacher guide. So if you as a teacher are taking the journey on and you're new and you're fresh and, you know, you only have a Bachelor of Education and you're scared to take this journey, The teacher's guide that is supplied comes with all the solutions, it comes with extra research to do, extra puzzles to do for, to equip you as a teacher to ensure that you aren't bombarded with this new content and you aren't taken out of your comfort zone. But I feel like if you're taken out of your comfort zone, that's where you grow and develop. Sure. So I think more teachers in our country should be taking on this responsibility and bringing coding in, because I feel coding is something that is cross-curricular. It shouldn't just be a coding classroom. Sure. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=150): > And it's not something that you can break. Coding is, by its design, is about trial and error, and I think that's a lot of the value in the curriculum. Definitely. Well, that's a lot of the value in the cross-curricular part of things. So if you don't get the code right, the device just won't do what you want it to do. Correct. And then you can stop and start again, and I think that's Kids can teach teachers a lot about that, because that failing fast, failing forward, trial and error is part of what we'd like them to do, and we certainly want that to be able to translate into maths and science, where that's actually the learning. It's not just about putting out the perfect formula and getting it right every time. Cameron Busch, guest [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=184): > Definitely. I think it also goes to the philosophy that I hold dearly to myself, is there's no winners and losers, there's lessons learned and lessons taught. Sure. And coding is something that really drives that narrative where you'll see these children try over and over and over again, and I find myself battling, if I get something wrong, I'll try three times and I just give up. Sure. Where these kids, when they, when they going with, when they're trying to solve this coding problem, they don't stop until they get it right. So there's a lot of resilience and grit that's been built in the same place. I mean, these are transferable skills that these, these learners start to harness, where it's not a, it's no longer a coding skill, it's a, it's a skill that they can take into their life. ### Passage: Code as a language of clear instructions [05:35-08:03, 503 words] Note (AI): The host demystifies coding as giving instructions, links it to maths and English, and Cameron illustrates sequencing with the peanut butter sandwich example. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=335): > So I think a lot of people are terrified of the concept of coding, because it feels like they have to suddenly become math geeks and engineers and things like that. But in its simplest form, code is using a language to give an instruction. A hundred percent. And it doesn't matter if that language is pictures or colors or shapes that instruct something to happen, that's what it means. So if you've got triangle, triangle, square equals stop, Then you want to know that when you read triangle, triangle, square, that that means stop. Correct. And if you've got circle, circle, square, that means go, and if you add another square, it means go fast. So if kids are reading the code, even if it's in a GUI, a graphic interface, they should be able to read the instructions like a sentence. Go forward, stop, wait two seconds, go forward, turn right, stop. Correct. So I think if people understand that code is just a way of telling a digital device how to do something, be it a robot, a picture, or a book that you're busy writing, that's what code is. It's just using a different language to do so, and there are a lot of languages out there. And fortunately, it seems to me that the accessibility to coding is not hard coding, which is actually typing out the, the, the language as it were. It's about understanding they've put it into a graphic user interface where you can drag blocks with variables and it's do what you need to do. Block-based coding. Block-based coding. I think that's where it starts, and I think if people understand that, because it's Tapes and pictures and colors that do that. It's why you can do your first part with the youngsters without doing screen time, because they can pick it up like that. It's a logical sequence. I can see that learning coding is going to help with math, as we spoke about the cross-curricular part of it. And the problem-solving aspects that coding provides that you can translate into mathematics. Sure. But also, it's going to make them better writers of English, because they're going to be clearer with their instructions and the intent of what they're writing. Cameron Busch, guest [07:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=450): > The, the common example I use, there's a, there's a video that circulated quite a while back where a father got his son and daughter to write an instruction to make a peanut butter sandwich. And they would give this instruction to the father, and he would go to a T, their instructions, and when you actually see how he understood the instructions and deli- and actually executed it, you can see how skewed the instructions were. And this is where that whole English encoding translates. If you don't sequence your code properly and you don't give the instructions or the commands the way it's Meant to be intended to be executed, you can see where these things can start to fall apart. ### Passage: A former teacher on coding in his classroom [08:48-10:09, 246 words] Note (AI): Cameron's first-hand account of how coding and robotics reduced repetition, gave instant feedback and increased learner engagement. Cameron Busch, guest [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=528): > I think what helps me is I was a teacher myself before working at ISO Education, and, you know, you mentioned that teachers are overburdened, and it was clearly evident to me that yes, we are. The admin is ridiculous, on top of all the teaching we need to do. And learning code and going through ISO Education's coding program, that's how I ended up at ISO Education, is going through their program, I realized the tool that Coding and Robotics offers in terms of content delivery. And we spoke about cross-curricular, and coding and robotics helped me execute my objectives and my deliverables in a more creative way where I found myself I had to repeat content less. I didn't have to try and re-explain things. With the practicality that the robotics and the coding offers, learners were able to retain all the information. They were able to critically think about the information, and it made my life easier. I didn't have to go back and think, because you know, feedback is crucial as a teacher. So that instant feedback where if they would code something in quickly in my lesson, and the robot Sphera would talk it out, I would be able to see immediately, okay, where is this lapse in information? It made my job easier, and also it got the students excited to come to my class. And when students are excited to learn, they retain information on a much higher level. ### Passage: Scaffolding from Indy to Sphero Bolt [13:50-15:57, 382 words] Note (AI): Lays out the progression of robotics products and curriculum across age phases, useful for schools planning where to start. Cameron Busch, guest [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=830): > we see a lot of parents wanting their young child to have less screen time, and Sphera identified that, and they developed this awesome little robotics tool, this little robot, that allows you to solve puzzles that translates to coding in terms of getting a competition, thinking up, getting a problem-solving skills up, and the collaborative aspect as well, because they're communicating with their peers on, where do you think this tile goes? This is a left, this is more of a 45-degree turn, where this is a 90-degree turn, do you think this should go here? Do you allow them to communicate their, their questions, their problems, and this is where it all translates to that scaffolding, where we develop young brilliant minds with the Indy, and then we take these coding concepts that they have developed with this product and translate it to eventually when we get to our intermediate phase and we start to use the bolt more often. Now the bolt is still a Sphero, it's a Sphero bolt, where it's a little sphere, which has a LED screen on it, and it has a little robotic... Think of it as a robotic ball, a Sphero that moves around with a LED screen. Now, Sphero has a curriculum for this that is available, but we like to use it in conjunction with our Everyone Can Code curriculum, where when we start to learn commands, how do you issue commands to the Sphero? When you're looking at conditional statements or you're looking at your for loops, you should have this robotics encoding element intertwined. So you're allowed to reinforce this new information at the learners' gathering. So if you're bringing coding into your school, whether you're starting at grade one, grade four, grade seven, or matric, if you're introducing the concepts, introducing commands, command is a command, we all need to start somewhere. But once we've gone through our process of introducing it at a younger level, then we can start getting to the more complicated sections where we've already established and developed these problem-solving abilities and their coding knowledge, that's when we can start getting into the really technical stuff that's available in our higher ed offerings or in Spheros and, and sort of playgrounds, higher ed offerings. ### Passage: How parents and schools get started [17:36-20:32, 588 words] Note (AI): Covers contact routes, tailored school assessments, the literacy challenge, and working alongside existing Google and Microsoft tools. Cameron Busch, guest [17:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1056): > So if parents would like to find out more information with regards to our coding offerings, they can contact education at iStore.co.za, and there they will put you through to the relevant people in terms of what equipment you would need, what, apps you would need. We are there to help you. We aren't there to just dropbox and leave you alone. We, we believe in walking the journey with you. We know it's a, it's a treacherous path, okay? It's a very scary path. I mean, you look back ten years ago, you mentioned it, it, it was deemed as a very geeky, very, you know, you got to just pump a bunch of lines into a computer and this is your code. It's a, it's a much more interactive journey now where they've realized the, the need for it in the South African context and to make it accessible. You read the stats that only nineteen percent of learners at grade four can read for understanding. You can see how difficult it can be when introducing a thing like coding. So we need to ensure that our parents, not just our teachers, understand what's going on in the school context to ensure that they have the support when they go home, and us at iStore Education will be able to help them walk this journey. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1119): > And what do you offer schools? you said that either iStore lead coding and robotics facilitator. What do you offer schools? If edu, if schools want to Cameron Busch, guest [18:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1127): > get into this, what do they do? So as well, you, you would contact education at iStore Education, and we would tailor make an offering that suits your school. parameters. Whether you are a public school with a thousand and three hundred learners or you're a private school with four hundred learners, even less, we ensure that we come to your school before giving you a quote to see what it is your school requires. Do you need us to come and look at your access points in terms of just setting up your internet to ensure that your devices will con- consistently be connected to the, to the network? So we'll come through to you, see what solution we can provide you, and remember, we don't just offer a coding and robotic solution, we offer an education solution. So we use the iPad superpowers alongside our coding offerings to ensure that the holistic cross-curriculum approach, we can tick that box. Sure. Gershom Aitchison, host [19:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1181): > So I suppose while you need to have Apple devices to access the coding and things like that, you're certainly not going to turn your nose up at a school that has, you know, Microsoft products and Google products that they're using. It, you know, you're not threatened by that. Cameron Busch, guest [19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1198): > No, not at all. I mean, we, we see that Google Classroom, all of our Google apps work on the iPad as well. So if you want to have a class with a lab of twenty iPads, we're not asking you to throw away all your Chromebooks. We aren't asking you to work, throw away all your Microsoft software, or your, or hardware, that is. We, we encourage you to use it as a collaborative aspect, because I mean, when these students leave school, they aren't guaranteed to go into an Apple-only ecosystem or a Windows-only ecosystem. If they are able, just like coding, if you are able to understand multiple languages, you're only setting up yourself for, for, for greener pastures. ### Quotes > "But I feel like if you're taken out of your comfort zone, that's where you grow and develop." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=134) > "there's no winners and losers, there's lessons learned and lessons taught." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=187) > "it's no longer a coding skill, it's a, it's a skill that they can take into their life." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=215) > "code is using a language to give an instruction." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=347) > "And when students are excited to learn, they retain information on a much higher level." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=604) > "But taking on a coding journey, become the student yourself." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=985) > "lot of power in a teacher saying, I don't know, but I'm happy to learn with you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [16:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=989) > "We aren't there to just dropbox and leave you alone. We, we believe in walking the journey with you." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1071) > "we don't just offer a coding and robotic solution, we offer an education solution." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1166) > "if you are able to understand multiple languages, you're only setting up yourself for, for, for greener pastures." >, Cameron Busch, guest · [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1226) ### Claims > "What I do at ISO Education is I train teachers as well as students on coding and robotics, the curriculum that Apple offers, which is the Everyone Can Code curriculum, ranging from early learners all the way through to higher ed." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=29) > "the curriculum itself is free. If you want to have access to the curriculum, yes, we do need a device. We need an iPad or a MacBook." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=101) > "The teacher's guide that is supplied comes with all the solutions, it comes with extra research to do, extra puzzles to do for, to equip you as a teacher to ensure that you aren't bombarded with this new content" >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=121) > "So I think more teachers in our country should be taking on this responsibility and bringing coding in, because I feel coding is something that is cross-curricular. It shouldn't just be a coding classroom." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=138) > "Coding is, by its design, is about trial and error, and I think that's a lot of the value in the curriculum." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Resilience through coding · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=153) > "I think it also goes to the philosophy that I hold dearly to myself, is there's no winners and losers, there's lessons learned and lessons taught." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Resilience through coding · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=184) > "Where these kids, when they, when they going with, when they're trying to solve this coding problem, they don't stop until they get it right. So there's a lot of resilience and grit that's been built in the same place." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Resilience through coding · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=200) > "So when it comes to our early learners, the Everyone Can Code early learners helps teachers to introduce coding concepts in a more unplugged manner." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=239) > "the Indy is something that we, we are starting to push a lot more with the, the early learners, where there's no screen time required," >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=272) > "there's activities within Swift Playgrounds where you can create books using code. You can create artwork using code, putting different shapes together" >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=310) > "But in its simplest form, code is using a language to give an instruction." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Code as language · [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=345) > "But also, it's going to make them better writers of English, because they're going to be clearer with their instructions and the intent of what they're writing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=442) > "there's a video that circulated quite a while back where a father got his son and daughter to write an instruction to make a peanut butter sandwich." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Code as language · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=452) > "I think what helps me is I was a teacher myself before working at ISO Education, and, you know, you mentioned that teachers are overburdened, and it was clearly evident to me that yes, we are." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Teachers learning alongside students · [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=528) > "coding and robotics helped me execute my objectives and my deliverables in a more creative way where I found myself I had to repeat content less." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=558) > "So that instant feedback where if they would code something in quickly in my lesson, and the robot Sphera would talk it out, I would be able to see immediately, okay, where is this lapse in information?" >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=589) > "And when students are excited to learn, they retain information on a much higher level." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=604) > "And the more senses that we are able to integrate into the learning process, and including what is now considered the sixth sense, which is balance, you are going to have a better outcome for learning." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [10:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=618) > "It isn't this old, out, outdated, direct instruction model where most of our classrooms in South Africa follow the industrial model," >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Cross-curricular teaching · [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=673) > "Edu Inc is embarking on that, the ATCE endeavor, which allows children to learn proper programming, build apps, and actually end up with a qualification that is on their CVs when they leave school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School coding solutions · [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=752) > "So essentially you get these color mats that you put on the floor, and you get given cards that you gotta solve for a puzzle. Now, there's no words, it's picture-based," >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [13:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=783) > "So from your grades R to grade three, even going to grade four, the indie can be used to help develop these problem-solving capabilities" >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=800) > "Now the bolt is still a Sphero, it's a Sphero bolt, where it's a little sphere, which has a LED screen on it," >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Unplugged early learning robotics · [14:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=883) > "When you're looking at conditional statements or you're looking at your for loops, you should have this robotics encoding element intertwined." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=911) > "I would say learn with the students. A lot of the times teachers want to have be this custodian of knowledge, and they want to know everything and be able to impart this knowledge onto their learners." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Teachers learning alongside students · [16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=975) > "lot of power in a teacher saying, I don't know, but I'm happy to learn with you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teachers learning alongside students · [16:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=989) > "Because, yes, they had a drafted document and it's been delayed for, I think, until 2025 now." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [16:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1016) > "But if you as a teacher can get the skill behind you, you are going to be a skill that is in demand." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Teachers learning alongside students · [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1021) > "they can contact education at iStore.co.za, and there they will put you through to the relevant people in terms of what equipment you would need," >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1059) > "We aren't there to just dropbox and leave you alone. We, we believe in walking the journey with you." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1071) > "You read the stats that only nineteen percent of learners at grade four can read for understanding. You can see how difficult it can be when introducing a thing like coding." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: Coding curriculum access · [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1098) > "Whether you are a public school with a thousand and three hundred learners or you're a private school with four hundred learners, even less, we ensure that we come to your school before giving you a quote to see what it is your school requires." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [18:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1139) > "remember, we don't just offer a coding and robotic solution, we offer an education solution." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1166) > "So if you want to have a class with a lab of twenty iPads, we're not asking you to throw away all your Chromebooks." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1203) > "when these students leave school, they aren't guaranteed to go into an Apple-only ecosystem or a Windows-only ecosystem." >, Cameron Busch, guest · topic: School coding solutions · [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370729_high.mp3#t=1217) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this episode, Gershom Aitchison speaks with Cameron Busch, Lead Coding and Robotics Facilitator at iStore Education, about coding education in South Africa with a focus on accessibility and resilience. Connect with Cameron Busch · iSchool Africa Website · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Disability inclusion in education - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2023-10-17-disability-inclusion-in-education/ - Date: 2023-10-17 (as at 2023-10-17) - Guest: Chelsea Williamson - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Defining disability, Apple accessibility features, Teacher training, Screen time versus assistive devices, Language of disability, Guest's personal journey, Inclusive school support - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1370733?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Chelsea Williamson - in charge of disability inclusion · iSchool Africa and iStore Education - Supports people with disabilities using technology at iSchool Africa and iStore Education; has dyslexia; got ninety percent in her honors year and completed a master's in law focusing on disability rights. In their own words: > "my role within them is supporting people with disabilities from the youngest age, children with disabilities, disabilities across the board, vision disabilities, hearing, physical, motor, cognitive disabilities," [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=67) > "I got ninety percent in my honors year at university, and I've just completed my master's in law." [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1071) > "I've now just completed my master's in law and focusing on disability rights, and none of that would have been possible without access to technology." [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1103) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Gershom Aitchison, headmaster of Edu Inc (a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, Grades 4 to 12), talks with Chelsea Williamson of iSchool Africa and iStore Education about technology for learners with disabilities. Chelsea defines disability broadly, including invisible disabilities, describes Apple's built-in accessibility features such as spoken content, dictation and color filters, and explains how she trains teachers. She draws on her own dyslexia and academic journey, argues that devices can be assistive rather than mere screen time, and makes the case for using the word disability over calling it a superpower. **Key ideas** - Chelsea argues disability is broader than visible impairments; she cites the WHO figure that seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. ([02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=138) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=155) [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=241)) - Chelsea says Apple's accessibility features are built in and can be turned on independently out of the box. ([04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=289) [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=344) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=367)) - Chelsea trains teachers on all accessibility features, customised per school, so they can handle any learner's needs. ([08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=488) [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=491) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=542)) - Chelsea distinguishes negative screen time from a device used as an assistive device, such as a non-speaking learner's voice. ([14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=852) [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=920) [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=967) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=986)) - The host holds that technology at Edu Inc is a tool, not a crutch, and that screen time should be differentiated by use. ([14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=863) [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=873) [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=877)) - Chelsea argues the word disability gives access to accommodations, while calling it a superpower can set children up to fail later. ([18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1131) [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1178) [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1264) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1281)) - Chelsea credits access to technology for taking her from struggling in high school to top student and a master's in law. ([17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1045) [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1048) [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1071) [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1103)) **Lessons** - Chelsea advises showing teachers the full range of accessibility features, since a school may later receive a learner with a different disability. ([08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=488) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=532)) - Chelsea's experience suggests learners should be told early about their barriers and how to overcome them, not only their strengths. ([21:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1291) [21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1297)) - Chelsea says a device used for communication or reading is an assistive device, not screen time. ([15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=920) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=986)) - Chelsea notes accessibility settings made on one Apple device carry across devices on the same Apple ID. ([13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=784) [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=830)) **Who it's for:** Teachers, school leaders, parents and therapists supporting learners with dyslexia, autism, ADHD, vision or hearing barriers, and schools wanting to become more inclusive using Apple technology. **Facts stated in the episode** - Chelsea says fifteen percent of the global population is people with disabilities. ([02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=140)) - Chelsea cites the World Health Organization: seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. ([04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=241)) - Chelsea got ninety percent in her honors year and has completed a master's in law. ([17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1071)) - iStore Education serves schools that can afford technology; iSchool Africa serves rural, township and disability-focused schools that cannot. ([00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=40) [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=46)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What counts as a disability?** A: Chelsea gives the legal definition: a long-term reoccurring impairment that prevents someone accessing life to the fullest on an equal basis as others. She includes dyslexia, autism, depression and anxiety. ([02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=138) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=155)) **Q: How many disabilities are invisible?** A: Chelsea cites the World Health Organization saying seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. ([04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=241)) **Q: Do you need to install apps to use Apple accessibility features?** A: Chelsea says no: the features are built in and can be turned on out of the box, even by asking Siri, without needing help. ([05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=344) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=367)) **Q: Which iPad features help learners with dyslexia?** A: Chelsea describes spoken content (speak screen and speak selection), spell, look up for definitions, and dictation for speech to text. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=617) [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=631) [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=700)) **Q: Is screen time bad for children with disabilities?** A: Chelsea distinguishes negative screen time from using a device as an assistive device, like a non-speaking autistic learner who uses his iPad as his voice. ([14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=852) [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=920) [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=967)) **Q: Should we call a child's learning difference a superpower instead of a disability?** A: Chelsea argues the word disability gives access to accommodations, and that superpower language can leave people without words to ask for support in higher education. ([18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1131) [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1178) [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1264)) **Q: How can schools or parents get support from iSchool Africa?** A: Chelsea invites them to email her or visit iSchoolAfrica dot com; she also supports schools transitioning to being inclusive. ([23:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1391) [23:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1412)) ### Passage: What counts as a disability, including invisible ones [02:18-04:14, 330 words] Note (AI): Chelsea gives the legal definition, global and WHO figures, and extends disability to dyslexia, autism, depression and anxiety. Chelsea Williamson, guest [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=138): > So I think first off, I want to start by saying globally, fifteen percent of the global population is people with disabilities, and I think people underestimate how many people with disabilities there are worldwide, and they also don't have a good enough understanding of what a disability is. So the legal definition of a disability is a long-term reoccurring impairment that prevents somebody from being able to access life to the fullest on an equal basis as others. And this includes something as simple as being able to enjoy life to the fullest. So thinking of your social activities just as much as the education space, as much as employment and everything. And I, I love that definition because it allows you to understand that a disability is not the thing that we immediately think of. It's not the barriers, but it's actually allowing people to see that beyond those barriers is a person. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=190): > So that's quite generalized. What do you mean by disabilities? You, as I said, in my mind, it's somebody with a hearing aid or You know, sight impairment or a walking stick or something like that, what do you guys consider to be a disability? Chelsea Williamson, guest [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=205): > So those are all disabilities. and a disability is anybody who has something, a barrier that prevents them from being able to enjoy life to the fullest. It could be anything, something as small as, not small, but something as what people have deemed to be trivial, but dyslexia and autism, so you've got your invisible disabilities as well. Those are also disabilities. So Gershom Aitchison, host [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=227): > ADHD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, By your definition, long-term depression, things like that too? Chelsea Williamson, guest [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=235): > Depression, anxiety, definitely. Mental health, there's, there are definitely disabilities. in fact, the World Health Organization says that seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. So you might think of somebody with a hearing aid or somebody in a wheelchair, but actually seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. It's the ones that we can't see. ### Passage: Custom teacher training across all accessibility features [08:08-09:18, 225 words] Note (AI): Explains why Chelsea shows schools every accessibility feature rather than only those matching one disability, and how teachers benefit too. Chelsea Williamson, guest [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=488): > My approach generally when I, when I approach schools, I, I like to custom make my training because I also understand that no school, even if you have two schools that cater for the same disability, they're going to have different needs, and every child is also different. So I like to first of all custom make each package, but also give each school the opportunity to see all of the accessibility features. That's Gershom Aitchison, host [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=511): > good, yeah. Chelsea Williamson, guest [08:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=512): > Because what I've seen in my experience is if I go into a school, for example, that has neurodiverse disabilities, and I only show them speak, screen, dictation, you know, your text-to-speech, your speech-to-text accessibility features, your color filter for learners with dyslexia, then they get a low vision child, and all of a sudden they don't know what to do, they don't know how to do it. So if I expose them to all of the accessibility features, it really helps them get that holistic, understanding of the accessibility features, first of all. And second of all, nine times out of ten in my training, when I show all of the accessibility features, Teachers start coming forward to me going, actually, I am colorblind, actually, I am hard of hearing, actually, and I get to start working with the teachers, supporting them as well as supporting the learners. ### Passage: Spoken content and dictation features explained [10:17-11:57, 326 words] Note (AI): A practical walk-through of speak screen, speak selection, spell, look up and dictation, with Chelsea's own dyslexia experience. Chelsea Williamson, guest [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=617): > So, being neurodiverse myself, I use these accessibility features on a daily basis. so I love talking about them. You're never putting me on the spot. So my, my absolute favorite one is, it's called spoken content. So spoken content is broken down into speak screen and speak selection. What that means is speak screen, if I want to read a book, a whole paragraph, a whole page, I just swipe my fingers down, two fingers from the top of the screen, and all that text in that document will be read aloud to me. If I don't want to read the whole document, I can just highlight the sentence or highlight the word or highlight whatever the paragraph that I'm wanting to be read aloud, say speak, and it will just read that portion to me. Other things you can do is you can highlight a specific word and say spell. So fantastic for your learners with dyslexia, especially your auditory learners that need things read aloud to them. They, they can have those words read aloud to them. You can also highlight a word and say, look up. So it'll give you the definition of that word. This has helped me so much, especially be having dyslexia myself. I'll sometimes read something and I'll know that I know a word, but I don't know what the word is. So if I highlight it and I say, look up, it gives me that dictionary definition, and then I know I can continue reading from there. So that speaks screen and spoken content, which is ultimately text to speech. Then there's dictation, which is speech to text. It allows me to push a button on my keyboard, and then I can speak into my device using punctuation, it speaks emojis and all of that as well. So I can speak however I want to, and as I speak, whatever I say will be typed for me. ### Passage: Screen time versus assistive device [14:12-16:45, 470 words] Note (AI): Addresses the common parent concern about screen time and distinguishes entertainment use from devices that give a non-speaking learner a voice. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=852): > One of the things that is a global phenomenon is that we're told that the screen time with kids is a problem. And I find a lot of conversations I have with parents are about screen time, and I think we need to differentiate between what screen time is, where it is your device is being used for entertainment and escapism rather than being used as a tool. And at Edu Inc, one of our big focuses on is that technology is not a crutch. It is a tool. You can rely on it, but sometimes you're in the middle of nowhere where you can't use the technology, and you still have to be able to do what you need to do. And working on your homework, working on the technology as a tool is not necessarily a bad thing if it is enriching your life and making it fuller. It's not just shoving a screen in front of a child and allowing them to disengage. This is an engaging process. Any thoughts on that? Chelsea Williamson, guest [15:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=903): > So I believe that there's positive screen time and negative screen time, which is exactly... Yeah, it's exactly what you're talking to. You know, there is negative screen time where somebody is mindlessly playing games or watching videos, and that is negative over long periods of time. But when we're talking about using Apple technology for children with disabilities, it's not even about screen time. We say that your iPad or your Apple device becomes an assistive device, and we have to acknowledge that difference. Because for a user who struggles with literacy skills, for example, to be able to hold up your iPad, take a photo of a sign, and then know... and have that sign read aloud to you, that's life-changing. That has the potential to save someone's life, actually, at the end of the day, give them much-needed information, to be able to go into the store and not be able to identify objects, and then use your device to be able to help you in that process. You're struggling with communication. There's a beautiful story, a learner that I'm working with in Cape Town, he has, he's non-talking autistic, which means that he cannot communicate through spoken, language. So he uses his iPad as a communication device. He types what he wants to be said into his device, and as he types a word, it gets spoken aloud for him. That is, that's not even screen time, that's an assistive device. That is his voice, and that has enabled him to access education on an equal basis as others, and that's the power of these devices. It's not only fun and a nice to have, but it's a necessity for a lot of these children and a lot of people with disabilities. ### Passage: From struggling in high school to top student [17:25-18:38, 231 words] Note (AI): Chelsea's own story shows the effect of access to technology and a disability unit on her academic results. Chelsea Williamson, guest [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1045): > So my, my journey has been quite interesting. When I moved to South Africa, it was about halfway through high school, I was actually asked to leave the school that I attended in South Africa because they didn't know how to deal with me. Later on, when I started engaging with technology in higher education, I all of a sudden went from a child who was Barely passing in high school to the top student in my class. I got ninety percent in my honors year at university, and I've just completed my master's in law. So when I went into tertiary education, I was involved in the disability unit, which meant that I got access to technology, which really enabled me to succeed. In my honors year, I got ninety percent. I was top student, which in comparison to in high school, I was struggling to get by. I was told I wouldn't be able to finish school. That was a big achievement. But then when I got access to technology, was top student in my honors, and I've now just completed my master's in law and focusing on disability rights, and none of that would have been possible without access to technology. Technology has allowed others to be able to see the potential in me and me to see the potential in myself and believe in myself as well. ### Passage: Why use the word disability rather than superpower [18:51-21:46, 551 words] Note (AI): A direct exchange where host and guest disagree on language, with Chelsea arguing the word disability unlocks accommodations. Gershom Aitchison, host [18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1131): > One of the words that I have personally a strong feeling towards is using the word disability when it comes to kids and the neurodiversity that they have in that space. I don't want kids to think they're disabled. I want them to think that, you know, I personally believe that those challenges are part of their superpower and are going to make them stronger, better people. Why are you using the word disability, and do you think that it has a psychological impact negatively on students? Chelsea Williamson, guest [19:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1160): > I ironically think it has a positive impact. People without disabilities have made this word disabled or disability a swear word, because they're scared of it, because going back to what we said in the beginning of the conversation, immediately they think, oh my gosh, it's somebody without an eye, it's somebody in a wheelchair. And when you take away neurodiversity from that term disability, you're actually removing people from their right to be able to access accommodations. And like I shared in my story, when I was in school, people didn't acknowledge my disability. They didn't give me any accommodations because they didn't know what it meant or how to support me. And it was only later on in life when I got to the disability unit and I learned, oh wait, I do actually have a disability. It's why I have this barrier. It's why I have this struggle. It's why I can't do this. But because of my disability, I can use this, I can use this, I can use this, and I can overcome those barriers. And using the word disability for me personally Has empowered me to have access to my accommodations. And we actually see this conversation being had on quite an international level. the United Nations, they use what's called person-first language, which means calling somebody a person with a disability. So you're acknowledging that they're a person before they have a disability. And if we all work together at removing the stigma from that word disability, we can all start to see that disability is not a swear word. It's actually such an empowering thing if you use it in the correct context. When you say things like to a child, and this is my opinion, and I, I, I hope that you understand where I'm coming from, but when you say to a child, you have a superpower, it's great in school, but what happens when they reach higher education? People don't see it as a superpower. You get seen as a burden. And now all of a sudden you haven't engaged with the right language to be able to describe what it is that you have and the support that you need, so you're actually setting them up to fail later on. Life. And yes, I have strengths. Don't take that away from me. There are things that I can do far better than anybody else because of my disability. And yes, those are my superpowers, but you can't negate the barriers that I'm faced with on a daily basis as well. And I wish people engaged with me on a, on, at a very young age on what my barriers are and how to overcome them, rather than just focusing on my superpowers. ### Quotes > "It's not the barriers, but it's actually allowing people to see that beyond those barriers is a person." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=184) > "just like human rights are afforded to everyone, we want our products to be accessible to everyone." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=292) > "Chelsea, it sounds like you bring a toolbox in, you unpack the whole toolbox and show us all the tools." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=565) > "technology is not a crutch. It is a tool." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=877) > "That is, that's not even screen time, that's an assistive device. That is his voice," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=986) > "It's not only fun and a nice to have, but it's a necessity for a lot of these children and a lot of people with disabilities." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [16:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=997) > "Technology has allowed others to be able to see the potential in me and me to see the potential in myself and believe in myself as well." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1111) > "People without disabilities have made this word disabled or disability a swear word, because they're scared of it," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [19:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1163) > "It's actually such an empowering thing if you use it in the correct context." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [20:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1253) > "you're actually setting them up to fail later on." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1281) > "And yes, those are my superpowers, but you can't negate the barriers that I'm faced with on a daily basis as well." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · [21:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1291) ### Claims > "The difference is iStore Education is for schools that can typically afford to purchase this technology themselves." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: iSchool Africa and iStore Education · [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=40) > "iSchool Africa, we target schools in rural and township areas and special needs schools that can't afford this technology themselves." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: iSchool Africa and iStore Education · [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=46) > "my role within them is supporting people with disabilities from the youngest age, children with disabilities, disabilities across the board, vision disabilities, hearing, physical, motor, cognitive disabilities," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: iSchool Africa and iStore Education · [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=67) > "We've got an app development program where we upskill people with disabilities to study app development and hopefully gain meaningful employment, because there's some scary statistics around the unemployment of people with disabilities in South Africa." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: iSchool Africa and iStore Education · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=88) > "globally, fifteen percent of the global population is people with disabilities, and I think people underestimate how many people with disabilities there are worldwide," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Defining disability · [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=140) > "So the legal definition of a disability is a long-term reoccurring impairment that prevents somebody from being able to access life to the fullest on an equal basis as others." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Defining disability · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=155) > "in fact, the World Health Organization says that seventy percent of disabilities are invisible. So you might think of somebody with a hearing aid or somebody in a wheelchair," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Defining disability · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=241) > "Tim Cook, he's the CEO of Apple, he says, just like human rights are afforded to everyone, we want our products to be accessible to everyone." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=289) > "So they've got a team in the different states and the different countries across the world that are actively engaging with people with disabilities and finding what are the barriers that they have and how can they use their products to overcome it." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=315) > "Out of the box, When you open that device out of the box, you are able to start turning on accessibility features." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=344) > "Independently, people with disabilities can turn on their accessibility features and use it straight out of the box." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=367) > "So there's a, a accessibility feature called color filters, which is directly used for people who are color blind, and then it lists the different types of color blindness," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=381) > "We find that The golden standard for us is an, is an iPad that you can use an Apple Pencil with and attach a keyboard because we don't want them typing on the screens." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Apple accessibility features · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=431) > "I like to custom make my training because I also understand that no school, even if you have two schools that cater for the same disability, they're going to have different needs, and every child is also different." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Teacher training · [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=491) > "So if I expose them to all of the accessibility features, it really helps them get that holistic, understanding of the accessibility features, first of all." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Teacher training · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=532) > "nine times out of ten in my training, when I show all of the accessibility features, Teachers start coming forward to me going, actually, I am colorblind, actually, I am hard of hearing," >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Teacher training · [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=542) > "But I think the biggest challenge is teaching people to realize that the toolbox is not just screwdrivers and hammers. There's a lot more other specialized tools for the job." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher training · [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=582) > "So spoken content is broken down into speak screen and speak selection. What that means is speak screen, if I want to read a book, a whole paragraph, a whole page, I just swipe my fingers down, two fingers from the top of the screen, and all that text in that document will be read aloud to me." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=631) > "This has helped me so much, especially be having dyslexia myself. I'll sometimes read something and I'll know that I know a word, but I don't know what the word is." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Guest's personal journey · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=680) > "Then there's dictation, which is speech to text. It allows me to push a button on my keyboard, and then I can speak into my device using punctuation, it speaks emojis and all of that as well." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=700) > "So It's not that my iPhone is learning once, then my Apple Watch is learning twice, and then my iPad's learning again. Because you're all on the same Apple ID, it learns your voice." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=784) > "But if I customize it on one device, it goes across to the other devices as well. So I don't have to go and set up my accessibility features on all my devices ten times." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Apple accessibility features · [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=830) > "we need to differentiate between what screen time is, where it is your device is being used for entertainment and escapism rather than being used as a tool." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Screen time versus assistive devices · [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=863) > "And at Edu Inc, one of our big focuses on is that technology is not a crutch. It is a tool. You can rely on it, but sometimes you're in the middle of nowhere where you can't use the technology, and you still have to be able to do what you need to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Screen time versus assistive devices · [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=873) > "But when we're talking about using Apple technology for children with disabilities, it's not even about screen time. We say that your iPad or your Apple device becomes an assistive device, and we have to acknowledge that difference." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Screen time versus assistive devices · [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=920) > "a learner that I'm working with in Cape Town, he has, he's non-talking autistic, which means that he cannot communicate through spoken, language. So he uses his iPad as a communication device." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Screen time versus assistive devices · [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=967) > "When I moved to South Africa, it was about halfway through high school, I was actually asked to leave the school that I attended in South Africa because they didn't know how to deal with me." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Guest's personal journey · [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1048) > "I got ninety percent in my honors year at university, and I've just completed my master's in law." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Guest's personal journey · [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1071) > "I've now just completed my master's in law and focusing on disability rights, and none of that would have been possible without access to technology." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Guest's personal journey · [18:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1103) > "I don't want kids to think they're disabled. I want them to think that, you know, I personally believe that those challenges are part of their superpower and are going to make them stronger, better people." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language of disability · [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1141) > "And when you take away neurodiversity from that term disability, you're actually removing people from their right to be able to access accommodations." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Language of disability · [19:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1178) > "the United Nations, they use what's called person-first language, which means calling somebody a person with a disability. So you're acknowledging that they're a person before they have a disability." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Language of disability · [20:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1232) > "when you say to a child, you have a superpower, it's great in school, but what happens when they reach higher education? People don't see it as a superpower. You get seen as a burden." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Language of disability · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1264) > "And I wish people engaged with me on a, on, at a very young age on what my barriers are and how to overcome them, rather than just focusing on my superpowers." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Language of disability · [21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1297) > "They can also look at our website, iSchoolAfrica dot com, and have a look at some of the services that we can provide for schools." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Inclusive school support · [23:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1391) > "We also support schools in making that transition to being an inclusive school. A lot of schools, they want to start including children with disabilities into their ecosystem, but they don't know where to start." >, Chelsea Williamson, guest · topic: Inclusive school support · [23:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1370733_high.mp3#t=1412) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Gershom Aitchison speaks to Chelsea Williamson, iSchool Africa and iStore Education, about technology access and support for children with disabilities in South Africa. Connect with Chelsea Williamson · iSchool Africa Website · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## The Power of Youth - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2023-04-19-the-power-of-youth/ - Date: 2023-04-19 (as at 2023-04-19) - Guest: Katryst Chari - Host: Jenny Ostrowick - Themes: Becoming a young author, Writing and editing process, Reading and perspective, Symbolism in fiction, Writer's block, Pseudonyms and privacy, Advice for aspiring authors - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1301762 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Katryst Chari - published author - Became a published author at age 16 through an annual competition; has a short story published in 'Social Justice Stories: viruses, villains, victims & victors'; working on a novel called Loving Me Will Never Work. In their own words: > "As you've heard, my name is Katryst, and I became a published author at age 16." [00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=48) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Jenny Ostrowick, an English teacher at Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, marks World Book Day by interviewing Katryst Chari, who became a published author at 16 through an annual competition for 12 to 18 year olds. Katryst talks about balancing Matric with writing, rewriting a story she has worked on since thirteen, how reading and a wider view of the world feed perspective, using symbolism, the challenge of making familiar ideas fresh, overcoming writer's block, writing under an alias for privacy, and her advice to aspiring young authors: just do it. **Key ideas** - Katryst treats unfinished work as 'in the works' rather than failed, setting a story aside until she can return with a different perspective. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=210) [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=234) [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=280) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=293)) - Katryst argues reading gives one kind of perspective, but a wider range of knowledge and a bigger picture view of the world is what really helps writing. ([06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=364) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=398) [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=420)) - The host argues editing means changing the story itself and doing research, not only fixing spelling and grammar. ([05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=307) [05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=330)) - Katryst says writing for publication showed her English teachers may have a point about symbolism, since she builds underlying meaning into her own fiction. ([07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=446) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=509) [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=548)) - Katryst sees lack of support and the need to make already-done ideas fresh as the main challenges for young authors. ([09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=573) [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=617)) - Katryst uses an alias for privacy, to separate her work from who she is. ([13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=810) [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=821) [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=882)) - Katryst's advice to aspiring authors is to act on the dream despite possible failure, because not trying leads to regret. ([16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=995) [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1007)) **Katryst's personal approach to writer's block** ([10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=649) [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=696) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=705) [12:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=733)) 1. Remove yourself entirely from the story rather than forcing the stuck point. 2. Just live life and experience things. 3. Notice what you can use in the story while living. 4. Return to the book with renewed drive once the block lifts. 5. Accept it may take days, weeks or months, and find what works for you. **Lessons** - Katryst suggests separating work time from free time and writing within protected free time. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=98)) - Katryst recommends reading your own draft as a reader, and being willing to rewrite it. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=210) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=239)) - Katryst says writer's block can last months and that is acceptable. ([11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=696)) - Katryst advises that no single writing method suits everyone; each writer must find what works for them. ([12:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=733)) - Katryst urges young writers to try, since regret comes from never acting. ([16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=995) [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1007)) **Who it's for:** Teenagers who want to write and publish, English teachers looking for a young author's view on editing and symbolism, and parents of aspiring writers in South Africa wanting to know about the national youth writing competition. **Facts stated in the episode** - The host states World Book Day falls on 23 April 2023. ([00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=23)) - Katryst became a published author at age 16. ([00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=48)) - The competition is open to entrants aged 12 to 18, per Katryst. ([02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=136)) - Between 30 and 60 entries are selected each year, depending on budget. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=159)) - The competition is run by the South African Schools Debating Board with the Center for Sexuality, AIDS, and Gender at the University of Pretoria. ([19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1140)) - The host says a girl named Stacey wrote Smelly Cats at seven and is on book four of the series. ([15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=941)) - The host says The Outsiders, read by the grade eights, was written by an author aged seventeen. ([16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=964)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How can a teenager in South Africa get a story published?** A: Katryst describes an annual competition hosted by the South African Schools Debating Board with the Center for Sexuality, AIDS, and Gender at the University of Pretoria, open to ages 12 to 18, which selects 30 to 60 entries a year. ([01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=118) [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=136) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=159) [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1140)) **Q: How does a Matric student find time to write?** A: Katryst says she set a goal around Grade ten to keep work and free time separate, and writes during her free time. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=98)) **Q: Do you need to read a lot to be a good writer?** A: Katryst says yes and no: reading gives perspective, but you can see the world differently without it, and a wider range of knowledge is what really helps writing. ([06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=364) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=398) [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=420)) **Q: Are English teachers reading too much into symbols like blue curtains?** A: Katryst jokes that sometimes a chair is just a chair, but says that as a writer she builds underlying meaning into her fiction, so teachers may have a point. ([07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=446) [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=495) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=509) [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=548)) **Q: How do you get over writer's block?** A: Katryst steps away from the story completely and lives life, noticing things she can use, which gives her drive to return. She says it can take months and each writer must find their own method. ([10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=649) [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=696) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=705) [12:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=733)) **Q: Should a young author use a pseudonym?** A: Katryst says it depends on whether the name makes the person or the person makes the name; she uses an alias purely for privacy, to separate her work from herself. ([13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=810) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=810) [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=821) [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=882)) **Q: What advice does a young published author give aspiring writers?** A: Katryst says just do it: you may fail, but not trying leads to regret, and pleasing people is tiring. ([16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=995) [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1007) [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1060)) **Q: What is Katryst Chari writing now?** A: She is working on a novel called Loving Me Will Never Work, which she hopes to get to publishers by the end of the year and says is meant to make readers cry. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1109)) ### Passage: How a national competition led to publication [01:58-03:29, 237 words] Note (AI): Explains the route by which a school pupil can get published in South Africa, and how Katryst reframed the COVID theme through symbolism. Katryst Chari, guest [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=118): > There's actually an annual competition that occurs in our country that you may not be aware of, and it's actually hosted by SASDB in partnership with CSA&G, and it's hosted by the University of Pretoria, and it's basically this annual competition. Anyone in the country can participate as long as they're under the age of 18, and I may be wrong here, but it's over the age of 12, so 12 to 18, and you submit via the theme. They send you a PDF document, and you can write on anything, fiction, nonfiction, essay, poem, whatever the hell you want, whatever your shtick is, and you submit it, and they select between 30 to 60 entries depending on the budget they have for the year. Jenny Ostrowick, host [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=166): > That's fantastic. And it's through them that you became published, and I believe you have a short story and a novel on the way that you're busy writing right now. Katryst Chari, guest [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=175): > Yes. So with them, I did a short It was about COVID, villains, viruses, victors and victims, around that wording, and I actually decided to twist the story and make the virus mankind, and use symbolism to signify how man is their own virus, and COVID was actually this type of anti-hero, per se. in terms of novels, I have a few things in the works, but getting them to the standard I believe they should be is a process in itself. ### Passage: Scrapping and rewriting a story written since thirteen [03:30-04:55, 254 words] Note (AI): Shows a young writer reading her own work as a reader, rewriting it repeatedly, and setting it aside rather than calling it a failure. Jenny Ostrowick, host [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=210): > Well, that's actually one of the things that I wanted to know. Quite often we believe that when we set a challenge for ourselves that we have to complete it, and if we don't meet our standard, that we are a failure. Do you find that doing something artistic like writing, that you'd actually have some incomplete tasks, things that are on the wayside? Katryst Chari, guest [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=234): > I would never state it as incomplete, but rather in the works. I have this story that I've been working on since I was thirteen, that I was ready to send out to publishers, I had done the editing process, and I was happy with it, until I decided to read it as a reader, and the more I read it, the more it felt like I was writing for Wattpad and not for a bookstore, and the more I read it, the more upset with it I got, and I actually scrapped the whole thing, redid it, didn't like it, scrapped the whole thing, and redid it again, and to this day I'm still not happy with it, and what I decided was, it's a good story idea, but the way I'm executing it, not so much. So I put the book aside, and I will come back to it, but I need to come back to it with a different perspective, so I give myself time to get that different perspective, and then I will approach that story again, cause there's No such thing as a failed story. ### Passage: Does being a good writer require being a reader? [06:04-07:15, 189 words] Note (AI): Katryst argues reading is one source of perspective but a wider view of the world is what improves writing. Jenny Ostrowick, host [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=364): > would it be safe to say that you'd think that being a good writer means to be a good reader? Katryst Chari, guest [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=370): > Yes and no, and I can tell you why. Because it's about perspectives. Reading helps you get those perspectives. When you read, it's different genres, different writing styles, different ways of writing, different ways of communicating even. Each author has their own way of conveying that imagery and that message, and that's why I love fiction so much, because it's actually a very difficult thing to do. However, you don't need reading to get that perspective. For example, you could see the world differently to other people. You may be looking at the same leaf, but see a different shade of green to other people. And if you have that creative mindset where you can open your eyes to the world around you, you don't need reading. Reading helps you in one aspect of perspective for writing, but it's not the only thing you need. You need that wider range of knowledge, that bigger picture view on the world. That's the real thing that helps you with your writing. ### Passage: Are English teachers over-reading the blue curtains? [07:26-09:22, 322 words] Note (AI): A student-turned-author explains how writing for publication changed her view of symbolism and deeper meaning taught in English class. Jenny Ostrowick, host [07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=446): > So I actually have a personal question. I've seen on social media lately that English teachers are often sort of like in a way made fun of because we look for the deeper meaning when we're reading novels. For example, a teacher might look at a sentence and we read about the blue curtains and we say that this represents our protagonist's feelings of deep sadness. And then the opinion about these posts is basically that we're just looking for things that aren't really there. And sometimes it really is just about blue curtains. So what is your opinion about this? So when you write, do you use figurative language to convey a deeper meaning or are teachers just looking for things that don't exist? Katryst Chari, guest [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=490): > I'm not going to lie. I have my own personal example and is the, he sat on the chair. Sometimes just let the boy sit on the chair. In peace. No, honestly, it flips both ways. I find myself crapping on English teachers for that exact same reason. But when I started writing to be published, I realized that my shtick as an author is having that underlying meaning and that reading in between the lines. And I actually really love having those real world issues incorporated into my fictional writing. So you will often see my main target audience is your young adults, your new adults. Those are the people I branch for. But within that group, I also reach for those critical thinkers, those analysts, if you will. And if you did read in between the lines, you would see in my own fictional writing, there is that symbolism of maybe the blue curtain is a little more than a blue curtain. And I think it took switching perspectives and actually being the writer to realize that, oh, English teachers may actually have a Point because I am doing this myself. Oops, and I'm sorry. ### Passage: Overcoming writer's block by living life [10:49-12:28, 313 words] Note (AI): Katryst describes her personal method for getting out of a months-long writing slump. Jenny Ostrowick, host [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=649): > So that being said, though, how would you overcome writer's block? If everything's been done before, what do you do when you get stuck? Katryst Chari, guest [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=657): > You're calling me out. You're in that spot, aren't you? Yes. experimenting. The thing is, what happens when you write, at least personally, you get so stuck on a specific point that you're trying to get across that you can't figure out how to get across that specific point, and you need to figure out how to get around that, and the more you think how to get around it, the more stuck you're going to get. So removing yourself entirely is what I would do, because what happens is, and I'm actually experiencing writer's block right now, and I'm starting to get over it finally, even though it's been a couple months. And yes, it does take months to get over writer's block, that's fine. Days, months, weeks, it's okay. But I've been in a writing slump for a couple of months, and I actually decided that I'm going to take myself completely away from the story and just live life. And the more I've been living life, the more I've been seeing, I can use this, I can use this, I can use this. And it's giving me also a drive to go back to that book and to continue it, because the writer's block is not there, because I'm not thinking about the writing. I'm just thinking about living, experiencing, and I can use this in my story, I can use that. So it's going to be different for everybody. What works for me won't work for the next guy, because we're all different people. And that's what makes us beautiful. So that's my personal method. But it's going to be different for every single person, and you need to find what works best for you. ### Passage: Why she writes under an alias [13:30-15:14, 307 words] Note (AI): Sets out her reasoning for using a pseudonym: privacy and separating the work from the person. Katryst Chari, guest [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=810): > Well, I guess that depends on do you think the name makes the person or the person makes the name? That's the first question you need to ask, and once you have the answer to that, you can go down different bridges. For me, I use the alias Katryst because purely privacy. I may become famous for my writing, I don't know. I know one of my dreams and aspirations is to have one of my books become a movie. Maybe like shoot for New York Times bestselling author first, but we're reaching for movie next. But I use an alias purely for privacy. I don't mind people knowing my real name, but it's none of your business nor your concern. And at the end of the day, what people lose about famous people is the fact that they are still human. And I want that thing of, I separate the actor from the character, or the actress from the character. And I always get annoyed with my friends when they're busy talking about the character and the actor as the same person, because they're not. So I separate the name, the person, Ryan Reynolds, From the character that he is or the character that he plays. There are two different people in my mind, and I use an alias to do the exact same thing, to separate my work from me. Because my work is what I do, what I'm putting out there, what I'm presenting, but who I am isn't necessarily my work. And having that division is something that people fail to understand is, yes, you're a celebrity, yes, you're in the spotlight, but I also have my own life. And I'm not always for you to see and for you to take pictures of. But I have my private life, keep it private. ### Quotes > "I would never state it as incomplete, but rather in the works." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=234) > "cause there's No such thing as a failed story." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=293) > "You may be looking at the same leaf, but see a different shade of green to other people." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=407) > "Sometimes just let the boy sit on the chair. In peace." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=495) > "You're not going to be sitting in Hollywood sipping cocktails in your penthouse mansion." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=580) > "do you think the name makes the person or the person makes the name?" >, Katryst Chari, guest · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=812) > "But I have my private life, keep it private." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=911) > "Do it. Just do it. There's more to that sentence, but just do it." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=995) > "At the end of the day, it's your life, and pleasing people is a little bit tiring." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1060) > "I am that author. I will kill characters off without hesitation. And that does include the main character, thank you very much." >, Katryst Chari, guest · [18:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1109) ### Claims > "On the 23rd of April, 2023, is World Book Day, and in celebration of this event, we have invited Katryst Chari to join us in studio today" >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Becoming a young author · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=23) > "As you've heard, my name is Katryst, and I became a published author at age 16." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=48) > "Asked me two years ago, and I would have told you I'm going into law, but through adventure and experiment and reading, I found my love of writing, and that's where I'm heading towards now in terms of career." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=62) > "I made it a goal at around Grade ten to make sure that I have a balance between this is work, this is my free time, don't touch my free time." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Balancing school and writing · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=98) > "Anyone in the country can participate as long as they're under the age of 18, and I may be wrong here, but it's over the age of 12, so 12 to 18, and you submit via the theme." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=136) > "and you submit it, and they select between 30 to 60 entries depending on the budget they have for the year." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=159) > "I actually decided to twist the story and make the virus mankind, and use symbolism to signify how man is their own virus, and COVID was actually this type of anti-hero, per se." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Symbolism in fiction · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=186) > "I have this story that I've been working on since I was thirteen, that I was ready to send out to publishers, I had done the editing process, and I was happy with it, until I decided to read it as a reader, and the more I read it, the more it felt like I was writing for Wattpad and not for a bookstore," >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Writing and editing process · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=239) > "So I put the book aside, and I will come back to it, but I need to come back to it with a different perspective, so I give myself time to get that different perspective, and then I will approach that story again, cause there's No such thing as a failed story." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Writing and editing process · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=280) > "And part of the writing process is that you edit your work and not just change the spelling or the grammar, but actually change your story." >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Writing and editing process · [05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=307) > "It is about doing the research and making sure that you get the right perspective and making sure that the story is the best version of what you can give to the world." >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Writing and editing process · [05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=330) > "However, you don't need reading to get that perspective. For example, you could see the world differently to other people. You may be looking at the same leaf, but see a different shade of green to other people." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Reading and perspective · [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=398) > "Reading helps you in one aspect of perspective for writing, but it's not the only thing you need. You need that wider range of knowledge, that bigger picture view on the world. That's the real thing that helps you with your writing." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Reading and perspective · [07:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=420) > "So basically, reading Is the cheap version of getting that knowledge. If you can't afford to go to Europe, you're going to read about it instead." >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Reading and perspective · [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=436) > "But when I started writing to be published, I realized that my shtick as an author is having that underlying meaning and that reading in between the lines. And I actually really love having those real world issues incorporated into my fictional writing." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Symbolism in fiction · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=509) > "So you will often see my main target audience is your young adults, your new adults. Those are the people I branch for." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Symbolism in fiction · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=527) > "And I think it took switching perspectives and actually being the writer to realize that, oh, English teachers may actually have a Point because I am doing this myself." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Symbolism in fiction · [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=548) > "One of the challenges I would say is just support in general. I mean, obviously with this industry, it's not the millionaire industry." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Challenges for young authors · [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=573) > "When it comes to creative, everything has been done before, and it's how can I take this idea that has definitely been done before, but make it new and make it fresh." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Challenges for young authors · [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=617) > "I read an article a couple of months ago about the idea that there are only seven plots, that as you say, everything's been done before," >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Challenges for young authors · [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=634) > "And yes, it does take months to get over writer's block, that's fine. Days, months, weeks, it's okay." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Writer's block · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=696) > "I actually decided that I'm going to take myself completely away from the story and just live life. And the more I've been living life, the more I've been seeing, I can use this, I can use this, I can use this." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Writer's block · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=705) > "What works for me won't work for the next guy, because we're all different people. And that's what makes us beautiful. So that's my personal method. But it's going to be different for every single person, and you need to find what works best for you." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Writer's block · [12:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=733) > "Well, I guess that depends on do you think the name makes the person or the person makes the name? That's the first question you need to ask," >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Pseudonyms and privacy · [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=810) > "For me, I use the alias Katryst because purely privacy. I may become famous for my writing, I don't know. I know one of my dreams and aspirations is to have one of my books become a movie." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Pseudonyms and privacy · [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=821) > "I use an alias to do the exact same thing, to separate my work from me. Because my work is what I do, what I'm putting out there, what I'm presenting, but who I am isn't necessarily my work." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Pseudonyms and privacy · [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=882) > "There's a girl named Stacey who at the age of seven also wrote a book. She wrote Smelly Cats and is on book number four in the series." >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Becoming a young author · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=941) > "our grade eights right now, they're busy reading a novel called The Outsiders, which was written by a lady named A.C. And she was seventeen when she wrote and published the, the novel" >, Jenny Ostrowick, host · topic: Becoming a young author · [16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=964) > "Go do the thing you want to do. Sure, you may fail, but at least you did it. Because the thing about regrets is if you don't do the action, you'll never know." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Advice for aspiring authors · [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1007) > "Also, Vincent van Gogh, when he was alive, his art meant nothing, but now that he's dead, his art is worth millions." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Advice for aspiring authors · [17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1049) > "The name of the book I'm currently working on is Loving Me Will Never Work. And the goal is to make you cry mercilessly." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1102) > "The people that host the annual competition is the South African Schools Debating Board in partnership with Center for Sexuality, AIDS, and Gender at the University of Pretoria." >, Katryst Chari, guest · topic: Becoming a young author · [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1301762_high.mp3#t=1140) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A Look at Young Authors In this episode Jenny Ostrowick talks to Katryst Chari about what is means to be a young author in South Africa. Katryst has a short story published in a book called 'Social Justice Stories: viruses, villains, victims & victors'. She shares valuable insight about how to overcome common challenges as an author and shares her literary journey with us. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## New year; new blood: Edu Inc faculty changes for 2023 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-12-01-new-year-new-blood-edu-inc/ - Date: 2022-12-01 (as at 2022-12-01) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Faculty changes for 2023, Teacher recruitment process, Departing teachers, New teacher qualifications, Staff community and network - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1258466 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In the last Edu Inc podcast of 2022, hosts Gershom Aitchison and Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison, Executive Head, announce faculty changes for 2023 at Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB. Gershom names three departing teachers, one maternity leave and their replacements, with each newcomer's qualifications. Jax explains the two-interview hiring process, including a panel of current teachers. She also describes how departing staff remain part of the school's network. **Key ideas** - Gershom frames the departures as life events the school supports, saying Edu Inc will not stand in the way of PhDs and love. ([00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=27) [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=27) [00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=55) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=126)) - Gershom states that each departing teacher is replaced by a named newcomer whose qualifications he lists. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=97) [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=122) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=142) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=184) [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=223)) - Jax attributes the high demand for teaching posts to the school's emphasis on staff professional and personal development. ([04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240)) - Jax argues current teachers must have a say in hiring because the team picks things up if a ball is dropped. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=271) [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=278)) - Both hosts describe the panel interview as demanding: Jax calls it grueling, and Gershom likens it to basic training in the army. ([04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=285) [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=285) [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=370) [06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=372)) - Jax says departing teachers stay in the network through guest classes and visits. ([05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=330) [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=341)) **Edu Inc teacher hiring process (as described by Jax)** ([04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=253) [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=271) [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=285)) 1. Receive and review a large number of CVs; many came in over three or four months. 2. Run a two-interview process for candidates. 3. Hold the second interview with a panel of the current teachers who will work with the newcomer. 4. Use the panel's feedback, which Jax says has always been on point. **Lessons** - Jax suggests that giving current staff a formal say in hiring builds ownership of the teaching space. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=271) [05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=305)) - Gershom suggests a demanding interview can become a memorable, confidence-building experience for those who get through it. ([05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=356) [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=370)) - Jax indicates that keeping departing staff connected, through guest classes and visits, extends the school's network. ([05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=330)) **Who it's for:** Parents and pupils of Edu Inc who want to know who is teaching which subjects in 2023. Also teachers considering applying to the school and wanting to understand its hiring process. **Facts stated in the episode** - Three faculty members leave at the end of 2022; one goes on maternity leave in the first term of 2023. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=35)) - Swasthi Maharaj has a BSc in genetics and microbiology from the University of KwaZulu-Natal. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=97)) - Masedi Mmonatau has a master's in chemical engineering from Wits. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=184)) - Ms. Khan is due in early February; Matt Matthyser covers for two and a half months. ([03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=202)) - Many CVs were received over three or four months; hiring uses a two-interview process. ([04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=253)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Which teachers are leaving Edu Inc at the end of 2022?** A: Gershom says three faculty members are leaving. Mr. Mudlia leaves to complete his PhD, Ms. Brief moves to Switzerland to marry, and Mr. Remneren moves to teach physics in the Western Cape. Ms. Khan goes on maternity leave. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=35) [00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=55) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=126) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=175)) **Q: Who is teaching maths at Edu Inc in 2023?** A: Gershom says Ms. Snow takes over Mr. Mudlia's position. Swasthi Maharaj teaches maths literacy and Grade 7 and 8 maths. Matt Matthyser covers Ms. Khan's maternity leave. ([01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=75) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=97) [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=202)) **Q: Who replaces the physics teacher at Edu Inc?** A: Gershom says Masedi Mmonatau takes the position. She has a master's in chemical engineering from Wits. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=184)) **Q: Who is the new history teacher?** A: Gershom names Angus Lowe as Ms. Brief's replacement. He is studying his master's in Educational Management, Law and Policy and is described as an avid history geek. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=142)) **Q: How does Edu Inc hire teachers?** A: Jax describes a rigorous two-interview process. The second interview is with a panel of current teachers, because the new person must work with the team. ([04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=253) [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=271)) **Q: Why do so many people want to teach at Edu Inc?** A: Jax attributes the high demand to the emphasis the school places on the professional and personal development of its staff. ([04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240)) **Q: How long will the maternity cover last?** A: Gershom says Ms. Khan is due in early February and Matt Matthyser will cover for two and a half months. ([03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=202)) **Q: Do departing teachers stay involved with the school?** A: Jax says Mr. Mudliar and Mr. Ramniran are not disappearing and will do guest classes and pop in. ([05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=330)) ### Passage: Mr. Mudlia leaves for PhD; maths posts reassigned [00:15-02:01, 338 words] Note (AI): Sets out the scale of the 2023 changes. Explains how the maths teaching posts are being filled and names the qualifications of the incoming teachers. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=15): > In this, our last podcast of 2022, I'd like to share some very exciting news about our faculty for next year and talk a little bit about what 2023 is going to look like. Edu Inc will never stand in the way of PhDs and love, and that's certainly something that's happened within our community in this last year. We have three faculty members leaving us at the end of this year, and one faculty member who is going on maternity leave in the first term of next year. It is with great sadness that we see Mr. Mudlia leaving us to complete his PhD, and if any of you manage to listen to Do You Really Want to Be a Math Teacher podcast recently, you would know that Mr. Mudlia has given us a year of his life while trying to do a PhD, and is at a point where juggling both the rigors of Edu Inc and the demands of teaching core maths and doing a PhD has just been a step too far. He's going off to be Dr. Mudlia, and we wish him well in the next few years while he attains his PhD, and he's still part of our community and available to Ms. Snow, who is going to be taking his position with an exile degree and experience in further studies mathematics. I know that his very large shoes are well filled. So the big question is going to be who fills the position of math literacy if Ms. Snow is filling the rather large shoes of Mr. Mudlia from next year. And Swasthi Maharaj will be joining us to teach maths literacy and the grade seven and eight maths. She has a BSc in genetics and microbiology from the University of KwaZulu-Natal and is very passionate and excited about maths. That's certainly something that grade sevens and eights really need to feel as they're going into the FET phase of maths, be it for maths core, further studies maths, or for maths literacy. ### Passage: History, physics and maternity cover replacements announced [02:02-03:52, 318 words] Note (AI): Names the remaining departures and the replacements for history, physics and junior maths, with each newcomer's qualifications. This matters to parents tracking who teaches their children. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=122): > The second teacher that is going to be moving on is Ms. Brief. Ms. Brief has found love, and unfortunately not locally, and is heading off to Switzerland next year to marry the man and love of her life. And while it seems to be a little bit sudden, we are also in good hands with her replacement, Angus Lowe, who's currently studying his master's in Educational Management, Law, and Policy, and is an avid history geek. I'm quite sure he'll keep us all enthralled with his historical accounts of what really happened in certain places around the world. The last teacher leaving is Mr. Remneren, our beloved physics teacher, and it seems that the draw of the Western Cape, the coastline, the wine, I don't know what the appeal is of Cape Town or the Western Cape, but a lot of Gautengers seem to be drawn there these days, and he is emigrating to continue his career as a physics teacher in the IAB space in the Western Cape, and we wish him well on that journey. He'll certainly be supporting Ms. Masedi Mmonatau, who will be taking his position, and we're very excited to have her join our team. She has a master's in chemical engineering from Wits, and is very keen to share her passion for physics, chemistry, and all things engineering with the students. And then finally, Ms. Khan is due to have a child next year in the beginning of February, and while her absence is going to be missed sorely, especially with the kids battling with raspberry pies and the junior maths, We are very fortunate to have the very experienced Matt Matthyser come in and take over for her for the two and a half months. With an honours degree from Wits and lots of years of teaching experience in the maths field, I think that we are in good hands. ### Passage: How Edu Inc selects its teachers [04:00-05:46, 360 words] Note (AI): The Executive Head explains the two-interview process and the panel of current teachers, and why staff have a say in hiring. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240): > The demand to be a teacher at Education Incorporated is very high, and this is generally because of the amount of emphasis that we place on the professional and personal development that our staff undergo while they are with us. It means that we've seen a great deal of CVs over the last three or four months, and it's quite a rigorous process that gets these candidates through the door. It's a two-interview process, and I have to say that one of the things that I've really enjoyed seeing over the last few months is the second interview that these people have gone through. This is an interview that they do with a panel of the current teachers, because The new person's going to have to work with the team. It's the team who picks things up if a ball is dropped. It's very, very important that they have a say in that space. And I can tell you something, I'm very, very pleased that I have never been interviewed by any of those panels, because they are pretty grueling. They've done their jobs exceptionally well. The feedback we've had from them has always been really on point. I have to say, I sat today listening to one of the panels and I was just, I just had a moment of feeling incredibly proud of our staff. The amount of agency and ownership that they have over the teaching space at Edu Inc is incredible to see. The strength of the team, the strength of this faculty is second to none. I keep being reminded of that when I watch these panels in action. So I have no doubt that we have chosen fantastic candidates for next year. I believe the strength of this faculty is just, it just continues to grow. The network continues to grow because people like Mr. Mudliar and Mr. Ramniran, they're not disappearing. We're going to see them doing guest classes. We're going to see them popping in, and I look forward to that. I look forward to this ever-expanding family that we have, and I'm feeling very confident that our kids are in great hands. ### Passage: Panel interview remembered; welcome to new faculty [05:47-06:43, 203 words] Note (AI): Shows how teachers themselves experience the panel interview and closes with the hosts' welcome to the incoming staff. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=347): > It also amazed me when listening to Mr. Mudliar, the outgoing teacher, and Ms. Snow. The, the incoming teacher, although she's been with Edu Inc for a few years now, just talking about that process and how even two years, three years after her initial interview, that panel interview was something that was quite memorable for her, and that little chuckle from both of them at the end of the podcast when they wished the candidates well, knowing that it's a little bit like basic training in the army. It's something you don't want to do, but you have to do it, but feel really good because it was so hard and you got through it and are standing on the other side of it. So on that final note, I'd like us to extend a very warm Edu Inc welcome to our new faculty members as we go into 2023. I know that the Edu Inc community is a great community to be part of. I know that the teachers are going to really feel welcome and give their best. I look forward to seeing what they do for us, and I look forward to seeing the new energy that they bring into the school. ### Quotes > "Edu Inc will never stand in the way of PhDs and love," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=27) > "The demand to be a teacher at Education Incorporated is very high," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240) > "It's the team who picks things up if a ball is dropped." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=278) > "I'm very, very pleased that I have never been interviewed by any of those panels, because they are pretty grueling." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=285) > "The strength of the team, the strength of this faculty is second to none." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=312) > "I look forward to this ever-expanding family that we have, and I'm feeling very confident that our kids are in great hands." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=341) > "it's a little bit like basic training in the army. It's something you don't want to do, but you have to do it," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=372) ### Claims > "Edu Inc will never stand in the way of PhDs and love, and that's certainly something that's happened within our community in this last year." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Departing teachers · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=27) > "We have three faculty members leaving us at the end of this year, and one faculty member who is going on maternity leave in the first term of next year." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Faculty changes for 2023 · [00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=35) > "Mr. Mudlia has given us a year of his life while trying to do a PhD, and is at a point where juggling both the rigors of Edu Inc and the demands of teaching core maths and doing a PhD has just been a step too far." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Departing teachers · [00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=55) > "he's still part of our community and available to Ms. Snow, who is going to be taking his position with an exile degree and experience in further studies mathematics." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Faculty changes for 2023 · [01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=75) > "Swasthi Maharaj will be joining us to teach maths literacy and the grade seven and eight maths. She has a BSc in genetics and microbiology from the University of KwaZulu-Natal and is very passionate and excited about maths." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New teacher qualifications · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=97) > "That's certainly something that grade sevens and eights really need to feel as they're going into the FET phase of maths, be it for maths core, further studies maths, or for maths literacy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New teacher qualifications · [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=111) > "Ms. Brief has found love, and unfortunately not locally, and is heading off to Switzerland next year to marry the man and love of her life." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Departing teachers · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=126) > "her replacement, Angus Lowe, who's currently studying his master's in Educational Management, Law, and Policy, and is an avid history geek." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New teacher qualifications · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=142) > "he is emigrating to continue his career as a physics teacher in the IAB space in the Western Cape, and we wish him well on that journey." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Departing teachers · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=175) > "Ms. Masedi Mmonatau, who will be taking his position, and we're very excited to have her join our team. She has a master's in chemical engineering from Wits, and is very keen to share her passion for physics, chemistry, and all things engineering with the students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New teacher qualifications · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=184) > "Ms. Khan is due to have a child next year in the beginning of February, and while her absence is going to be missed sorely, especially with the kids battling with raspberry pies and the junior maths, We are very fortunate to have the very experienced Matt Matthyser come in and take over for her for the two and a half months." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Faculty changes for 2023 · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=202) > "With an honours degree from Wits and lots of years of teaching experience in the maths field, I think that we are in good hands." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New teacher qualifications · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=223) > "The demand to be a teacher at Education Incorporated is very high, and this is generally because of the amount of emphasis that we place on the professional and personal development that our staff undergo while they are with us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=240) > "It means that we've seen a great deal of CVs over the last three or four months, and it's quite a rigorous process that gets these candidates through the door. It's a two-interview process," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=253) > "This is an interview that they do with a panel of the current teachers, because The new person's going to have to work with the team. It's the team who picks things up if a ball is dropped. It's very, very important that they have a say in that space." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=271) > "I'm very, very pleased that I have never been interviewed by any of those panels, because they are pretty grueling. They've done their jobs exceptionally well. The feedback we've had from them has always been really on point." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=285) > "The amount of agency and ownership that they have over the teaching space at Edu Inc is incredible to see. The strength of the team, the strength of this faculty is second to none." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staff community and network · [05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=305) > "The network continues to grow because people like Mr. Mudliar and Mr. Ramniran, they're not disappearing. We're going to see them doing guest classes. We're going to see them popping in, and I look forward to that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staff community and network · [05:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=330) > "just talking about that process and how even two years, three years after her initial interview, that panel interview was something that was quite memorable for her," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=356) > "knowing that it's a little bit like basic training in the army. It's something you don't want to do, but you have to do it, but feel really good because it was so hard and you got through it and are standing on the other side of it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment process · [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1258466_high.mp3#t=370) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) We are delighted to announce some exciting changes to our stellar team for 2023. While it is always sad to say goodbye to Edu Inc Team members, it is also a fantastic opportunity to welcome new energy and continue growing the exceptional team of people who work with our children everyday. Our new additions are: Matt Matthyser - Honours degree & Higher DIploma in Education; Swasthi Maharaj - BSc Genetics and Microbiology; Angus Lowe - Honours degree in Educational Management, Law and Policy (currently busy with Masters in Educational Management and Leadership); and Masedi Mmonatau - Masters in Chemical Engineering. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Are you ready to be a REAL Math teacher? - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-11-15-are-you-ready-to-be-a/ - Date: 2022-11-15 (as at 2022-11-15) - Guest: Julian Mudliar, Lauren Snow - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc, Teaching without textbooks, Small class teaching, Cognitive levels in maths, Professional development, School culture and fit - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1251863 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Julian Mudliar - maths teacher · Edu Inc - Came from a government school; about four and a half years at Edu Inc teaching grade nine to twelve maths; IEB marker in 2019 and 2020; collaborated with a Wits professor; leaving to finish his PhD. In their own words: > "Because of the small class size, I actually got to experiment and employ the findings from research into my actual classroom practice and actually try and think, how can I make maths more enjoyable, more relevant for my children?" [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=232) > "it also helped that over the four and a half years that I collaborated with a Wits professor where we developed COVID-19 tasks and actually implemented them in the classroom, and the kids really enjoyed that." [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=247) > "I've actually done research with novice teachers, so they don't really like to deviate from topic. but more experienced teachers, they are more willing, if there's something that's unexpected, to actually explore that in their lesson." [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=640) > "so I know in 2019 and 2020, I applied to be a IEB marker and I was accepted. So yeah, in that space there was, in terms of marking, I did mark NSC papers." [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=940) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Lauren Snow - teacher · Edu Inc - Taught maths literacy at Edu Inc for two years, helped with the AP maths program, and is taking over core maths from Julian. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The host, Gershom Aitchison, talks with Edu Inc's senior maths department. Julian Mudliar is leaving to finish his PhD, and Lauren Snow is taking over core maths from him. They discuss what it takes to teach at Edu Inc: passion and pedagogical content knowledge, teaching without a textbook, and adapting to small classes. They explain the four cognitive levels used in maths and the professional development available to staff. They also describe the application process, which asks for a CV, a SAIT certificate and a teaching video, followed by an interview with a panel of teachers. **Key ideas** - Julian argues that relying on an open textbook limits teaching. His view is that notes and examples a teacher creates themselves allow spontaneous, interactive lessons. ([04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295)) - The host says candidates who answer yes to 'do you need a textbook to teach?' make the school question their content knowledge and confidence. ([05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=328)) - Lauren names passion for the subject as the most important qualification. Julian stresses pedagogical content knowledge, meaning the ability to make content accessible to learners. ([07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=456) [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=503) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=508)) - Julian's research found that novice teachers avoid deviating from the topic. Lauren links a teacher's willingness to stretch to their confidence in their own knowledge. ([10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=607) [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=640) [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=687)) - Both teachers say small classes allow near-instant, detailed feedback, pitched to each learner's cognitive level. ([21:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1312) [22:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1343)) - The department classifies maths problems into four cognitive levels and discusses them with students so that learners know their strengths. ([24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1477) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1529) [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1683)) - The host describes the teaching video as the most important part of the application and says many applicants fail to send it. ([29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1778) [29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1786) [31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1874)) - Julian says the teacher panel tests cultural fit and grit, including whether a candidate will put in extra effort for struggling learners. ([31:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1918)) **Four cognitive levels for maths problems** ([24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1477) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1529) [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1570)) 1. Knowledge: definitions and formulas, learned by rote. 2. Routine procedures: skills-based tasks the learner has routinely seen. 3. Complex or multiple step procedures: several steps, or wording manipulated to make it harder. 4. Explanation and analysis, or problem solving: unseen questions that integrate across different strands. **Lessons** - Lauren and Julian suggest making maths relevant to learners' lives, for example by linking statistics to COVID-19 data or using real-life tasks such as income tax. ([01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=80) [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=404)) - Julian advises teachers to plan assessments early and meet deadlines, allowing time for external pre-moderation. ([18:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1124)) - Lauren advises combining an organised, structured lesson plan with the adaptability to build on relationships with learners. ([17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1050)) - Julian says closer relationships in small classes require care to maintain boundaries: friendly, but not a friend. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1242) [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1255)) - The host argues that teachers must be willing to leave their own comfort zone if they expect it of students. ([35:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2140)) **Who it's for:** Maths teachers considering applying to Edu Inc, teachers moving from large classes to small ones, and anyone interested in teaching maths without a textbook or using cognitive levels in assessment. **Facts stated in the episode** - Julian Mudliar is leaving Edu Inc to finish his PhD, planning to become a professor. ([00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=12)) - Julian says staff have around two thousand rand a year for courses, with half refunded if they teach the course back to colleagues. ([15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=912)) - Julian applied to be an IEB marker in 2019 and 2020 and was accepted. ([15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=940)) - Julian previously taught about thirty-five learners per class, in forty-minute lessons, at a government school. ([11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=714)) - According to Julian, section A of the IEB matric maths exam is about seventy-five marks of knowledge and routine questions. ([28:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1733)) - Lauren says the maths cognitive levels are broken into four stages. ([24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1495)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does Edu Inc ask for when teachers apply?** A: The host says applicants send three things: a CV, a SAIT certificate, and a video of themselves teaching. Candidates the heads of school like are then passed to a panel of teachers for a further interview. ([29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1786) [31:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1885)) **Q: Why is the teaching video so important in Edu Inc's hiring?** A: Lauren says it shows the candidate in a teaching environment. The host calls it probably the most important part of the process and says many applicants do not send it. Julian notes it cannot show how a teacher handles real-time learner questions. ([30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1820) [31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1874)) **Q: Why don't Edu Inc maths teachers use textbooks?** A: Julian says teachers who read from a textbook rely on it, while teachers who create their own notes and examples can be spontaneous and interactive. Lauren says this frees her to be creative and to use examples students suggest. ([04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295) [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=363)) **Q: What qualifications does Edu Inc prefer for teachers?** A: The host says the school prefers an undergraduate degree with an honours or master's plus a PGCE, because such teachers have deeper subject knowledge. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=527)) **Q: What are the cognitive levels in maths?** A: Lauren describes four levels: knowledge; routine procedures; complex or multiple step procedures; and explanation or analysis. Julian describes the last level as problem solving, meaning unseen questions that integrate different strands. ([24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1529) [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1570)) **Q: How are IEB matric maths papers structured?** A: Julian says section A, about seventy-five marks, covers knowledge and routine, while section B covers complex and problem-solving questions. ([28:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1733)) **Q: What professional development do Edu Inc teachers get?** A: Julian says staff have around two thousand rand a year for courses and get half back if they teach the course to colleagues. Lauren says being HOD of your own subject makes you grow. ([12:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=739) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=826) [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=912)) **Q: How is teaching a small class different from a large government school class?** A: Julian recalls teaching thirty-five learners in forty-minute lessons, which left little room to explore unexpected questions. He says small classes let teachers know each learner and give detailed feedback, and that there is no teacher table. ([11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=714) [22:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1343) [23:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1399)) ### Passage: Julian's path from government school to Edu Inc [03:14-04:19, 219 words] Note (AI): Julian describes how small classes let him apply maths education research and collaborate with a Wits professor on classroom tasks. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=194): > So one of the things that makes Edu Inc a little bit different is we talk about the concept of entrepreneurial employees, kind of carving your own path, as it were, at Edu Inc. Julian, you've been with us, I think it's almost five years by the end of this year. Julian Mudliar, guest [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=210): > Yeah, about four and a half years, yeah. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=212): > And you came from the big, I think you came from a big government school before you joined us. That's correct. Do you want to talk a little bit about your path and what, what you've carved out for you and what your, what you've done in those four and a half years at Edu Inc? Julian Mudliar, guest [03:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=225): > so I always thought it was important that for my own practice, I felt like I didn't really know the research that was out there in maths education. Because of the small class size, I actually got to experiment and employ the findings from research into my actual classroom practice and actually try and think, how can I make maths more enjoyable, more relevant for my children? And I also think, it also helped that over the four and a half years that I collaborated with a Wits professor where we developed COVID-19 tasks and actually implemented them in the classroom, and the kids really enjoyed that. ### Passage: Why Edu Inc maths teachers do not use textbooks [04:55-06:37, 305 words] Note (AI): Explains the school's interview question about textbooks and how both teachers build their own relevant examples to engage reluctant learners. Julian Mudliar, guest [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295): > Yeah, I feel that if you have the textbook open, you're just going to rely on the textbook and read from the textbook, but if you created the notes yourself, you already created the examples, and it's more spontaneous in the moment you can actually develop your own examples in that space of time, and it's more interactive with the learner than if you're just reading from a textbook or do examples straight from the textbook. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=316): > I think also that it makes it more relevant to the students. You can read, it becomes more topical. If you know that something is topical out there that they are having access to at the moment, you can incorporate it into your examples. it can be quite intimidating for teachers when we ask them at their interviews, do you need a textbook to teach? The ones that say yes, we start questioning the content knowledge and their confidence in the classroom. We asked you that question two years ago, Lauren, what are your thoughts on that? Lauren Snow, guest [05:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=343): > I was honestly quite relieved that I didn't have to rely on a textbook because without the textbook, you're allowed to be creative and will often have students coming up with examples in the classroom and, it gets them engaged. So when I've got eight kids in a class who despise math, to be honest, getting them to shout out numbers and be part of the learning process helps them make a connection to the subject that they might not want to be a part of. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=382): > Yeah. So it seems that one of the skills that is essential to be an educating teacher is making the teaching relevant to the students. And being quite flexible in what is going to allow them to engage while sticking to the core principles of teaching. ### Passage: Novice versus experienced teachers and the elastic band [10:07-12:08, 349 words] Note (AI): Julian's research on novice teachers, Lauren's point about confidence, and a comparison with large government-school classes. Gershom Aitchison, host [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=607): > So this is a rabbit hole that I want to just jump in very quickly, maybe just ankle deep, and just ask, are one would equate more experience in the classroom With teachers being more comfortable to go slightly off topic and make it relevant and engaging for the learners, whereas less experienced or less knowledgeable teachers would be quick to jump back into what they know and are comfortable with. You know, for me, teaching's always about being an elastic band. Sometimes you need to stretch it and give yourself more time, and then sometimes you let it go. So what are your findings so far in that space? What are your thoughts on that? So Julian Mudliar, guest [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=640): > I've actually done research with novice teachers, so they don't really like to deviate from topic. but more experienced teachers, they are more willing, if there's something that's unexpected, to actually explore that in their lesson. But that's not... I don't want to generalize, because there are some novice teachers who started who are very eager to work with the learner contributions in the classroom. But I think it happens more with time and experience. Lauren Snow, guest [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=664): > I think it also speaks to the edging process. technically, I am still a novice teacher, but I'm very willing to engage with the learners. It's Almost a byproduct of the Edu Inc setup, and there's no way around it. You've also, it speaks to the confidence of the teacher. If you're confident in your knowledge, you're more willing to be that elastic band and stretch and snap, whereas I think teachers that are more rigid in their Thought process or what they've learned are, they, they don't want to stretch and snap because they might be under-mined. Julian Mudliar, guest [11:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=707): > That's true. I also think the small class size makes it easier that you can actually deal with these unexpected learner contributions. Because when I worked at a government school, I was teaching like thirty-five learners, and it's very hard in that you've got like forty minutes per lesson, if something unexpected comes to actually explore an, unexpected maths concept. ### Passage: Professional growth, HOD responsibility and support networks [12:19-15:30, 566 words] Note (AI): Details the growth, moderation, IEB networks and course budget available to teachers, which matters to anyone considering applying. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=739): > I think also just to create some context to your comments about, I'm an, I'm still technically a novice teacher. I think not all novice teachers are created equal. You know, two years at Edu Inc has certainly thrown you in the deep end, and you have a lot more experience over two years than some teachers have been teaching for ten years. and I know that you've You know, through your PGCE and meeting other teachers and that, you know people that whose trajectory is a little bit different to yours. So do you want to share what that's been like for you? Lauren Snow, guest [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=767): > It's quite odd. I have been in contact with various teachers who started teaching in relatively similar positions at the same time as me, and the amount of growth that I've experienced in comparison to them is astounding. I, I can't really have many conversations about my career with them because they're so far behind. It, I feel, I feel sorry for them. Whenever someone talks to me about, oh, wouldn't you want to leave? Wouldn't you want to come work with me in this school, that school? Absolutely not. Gershom Aitchison, host [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=808): > So what has been that professional development? You know, on our, on our recruitment, process, one of the things that we list is Honors and recognition as part of the rewards for teaching, but more importantly, extensive personal and professional growth. Would you concur with that? Would you agree with what that statement? Lauren Snow, guest [13:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=825): > A hundred percent. Well, you're kind of the HOD of your own subject at Edu Inc, and with that comes a lot of responsibility, and you, you get it done. that in itself makes you grow. Other than that, we've got our hybrid setup that we execute very well. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=848): > One of the other things that I always say to the teachers is, you know, first year teaching at Edu Inc is tough because you own HOD, you, you don't have a department to rely on, but you certainly have your colleagues to rely on, and moderation is an important part of that. You know, internally, you know, you've got Julian moderating you and vice versa because you have the skills. You've also created a network of teachers in other private schools that are at the same standard that you're at. And more important, you have direct access to the, the subject specialists in that subject with the IEB that you can have a conversation with. Lauren Snow, guest [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=877): > The communication within the Edu Inc staff is absolutely brilliant, and there's a great support structure here. And then also with the collaboration that we can have within the IEB, there's no way for you to go wrong. There, everywhere you turn, there's support and, opportunities for growth. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=899): > Julian, your thoughts, it's been, you know, Lauren's been doing this for two years at Edu Inc, you four and a half years in, would you, what would, what would your feeling be on the professional development within the Edu Inc community outside of your studies and things like that? Julian Mudliar, guest [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=911): > I think they, so as staff, you have like around two thousand rand under the budget each year, so you can choose what courses to do, and if you teach back the course to the staff through the Crossfire Nation, you get half the money back. so yeah, I think there is quite a bit of room for professional development at Edu Inc. ### Passage: The four cognitive levels in maths [24:37-26:48, 363 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step explanation of how the department classifies every maths problem and shares those levels with students. Lauren Snow, guest [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1477): > So within math, we break every single problem up into a specific cognitive level. We discuss these with the students throughout the teaching process, from when we introduce the topic all the way through to assessment. Those cognitive levels are broken up into four stages. The first is your knowledge. That's just definitions, parrot learn it, and that's it. Gershom Aitchison, host [25:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1505): > Formulas and things like Lauren Snow, guest [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1506): > that. Then you've got your routine procedures. Those are things you've routinely seen you can do, those are just skills-based. Gershom Aitchison, host [25:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1513): > So where does times tables fall into that? Lauren Snow, guest [25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1515): > That would be knowledge. it also depends on what grade level you're at, but at the grade nine level, it's definitely knowledge. then we've got, so we've got the knowledge, routine procedures, then we've got your complex or multiple step procedures. So that's anything that takes a few steps to do, anything that we manipulate the wording to make it more complex, and then finally we have your explanation, your analysis, and that's really getting into the nitty gritty of why and explain and analyze. Gershom Aitchison, host [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1552): > So that, that's the maths question that they walk out of the metric maths paper going, sure, that pap, that, that question was unsolvable, and we've never seen something like that before, and we were never taught that. Do you want to add to that, Julian? Julian Mudliar, guest [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1563): > Yeah, Lauren summed it up quite nicely. So yeah, she talks about knowledge routine complex. Yeah, and problem solving is something that's unseen in a way. It's an unpredictable type of question, but you have to integrate across different strands. Like I know in the paper one IAB question, you have to work backwards from a parabola to a cubic function. So that requires quite a bit of brain work to do that, but it's something a bit unpredictable, because they haven't Gershom Aitchison, host [26:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1590): > asked that a lot. And, and that's the high order thinking that the kids... Julian Mudliar, guest [26:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1594): > Yeah, so especially the complex and problem solving, about fifty percent, yeah, it's always a higher order than in, the knowledge and routine that Lauren was say, saying, like solve for X. That's something that you teach them in a class, you reproduce the procedure. ### Passage: Edu Inc's teacher application process and teacher panel [29:38-32:34, 586 words] Note (AI): Sets out the three application requirements, why the teaching video matters, and why a panel of teachers interviews candidates. Gershom Aitchison, host [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1778): > So like most things Edu Inc, it's quite an unusual application process for teachers, and essentially looking for three things. The first is your CV, so we know what your qualifications are. The second thing is your SAIT certificate, so we know that you're allowed to teach and are qualified to teach. And the third thing we ask for is a video of yourself teaching. And I thought it might be useful to just share a little bit about what the most important of those three things is, in your opinion. Lauren Snow, guest [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1807): > It's definitely the video. We want to see you in the teaching environment, whether that be you teaching your, a class, or you teaching a group of teenagers. Julian Mudliar, guest [30:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1818): > Yeah. But the thing with the video, though, it is tough because you don't have learners in real time where they're asking you questions or something's unexpected. So the video is quite good. You get a sense of how the teacher's going to teach, whether they're a traditional, type of teacher or they're, they're going to use routine questions. But I think because it's not in real time, it's a bit difficult, not really interactive. Sure. Gershom Aitchison, host [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1844): > Well, it, it speaks to the hidden curriculum there, and I think part of that is Edu Inc is a very tech school, and even if you don't have a teaching video and you end up putting your cell phone on a tripod and you're teaching a concept to your teddies or your neighbor's kids, it's a great way to see that you understand how to actually digitize some of the analog process, which is very important, and make it accessible for the learners. But it also is a little bit about problem solving, too. It's a basic instruction, and one of our biggest frustrations at the moment is How many people do not send that video, and it's probably the most important part of, of the process. And then the second unique thing is, you know, once, Jax and myself as the heads of the school have met you, because we like what we've seen, we then hand you over to a panel, of teachers, because a lot of schools don't do that, but essentially it doesn't matter if the bosses like them, you're the guys that have to work with them. And perhaps just share a little bit about You've, you guys have been on the panels, even though you haven't, you know, in your words, you're a novice, which you're not. You have been, on a few panels, and Julian certainly seems to have been on every single one of them. They find him the most scary on the panels, but just share about why that's such an important part of the, of the process too. Julian Mudliar, guest [31:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1918): > I think it's to find out whether you're the right fit, for Edu Inc, whether you're going to fit the culture, and we can probe you a little more to find out, if, are you willing to put in the effort, to stay every afternoon. So like for maths, there are quite a few learners that struggle. Are you willing to put in the effort to help the learners if they're not understanding a maths concept? Yeah. So we just need, we also want to get an idea, do you have that grit, what it takes to be, a maths educator? It's not easy teaching mathematics. There's so many things happening in the classroom. you might get unexpected questions and to think on your feet. ### Quotes > "I don't think there's any other subject that teaches you how to calculate income tax," >, Lauren Snow, guest · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=86) > "You have to be passionate about your subject." >, Lauren Snow, guest · [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=461) > "it's not just good enough that you know the content, but you have to try and make it accessible for your learner." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=508) > "for me, teaching's always about being an elastic band. Sometimes you need to stretch it and give yourself more time, and then sometimes you let it go." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=631) > "I'm friendly towards you, but I'm not your friend." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1255) > "especially in a subject like math, where a lot of students feel invisible. They Feel seen in our classes, and because of that, they are willing to engage." >, Lauren Snow, guest · [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1273) > "a lot of learners might feel like hidden figures in other classrooms, and they hide in the background, but at Edu Inc, because it's so small, there's nowhere for them to hide." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1289) > "It gives me a, a vibe of, being in the trenches with them, and I think they, they feel that camaraderie, and it motivates them a lot." >, Lauren Snow, guest · [23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1414) > "It's not easy teaching mathematics. There's so many things happening in the classroom." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1945) > "Be prepared for the worst, but expect the best." >, Lauren Snow, guest · [35:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2134) > "we're never paid as much as we should be for the amount of work that we do, so there's got to be other trade-offs." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [36:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2184) ### Claims > "and what's precipitated this event is the very unusual occasion of one of our math teachers leaving, and that's Mr. Mudlia Julian, who is planning on becoming a professor, and his step to doing that is finishing his PhD" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=12) > "You really realize how applicable it is in real life, and I mean, I don't think there's any other subject that teaches you how to calculate income tax," >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Maths literacy · [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=80) > "I've been able to really exercise the students' brains without them really realizing it all the time, and they've had immense fun doing it." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Maths literacy · [02:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=132) > "I think she's established quite a good, relationship with the children, and she's interacted a lot with the learners who are going to be doing core maths from grade ten to twelve, so she knows them quite well." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=166) > "Because of the small class size, I actually got to experiment and employ the findings from research into my actual classroom practice and actually try and think, how can I make maths more enjoyable, more relevant for my children?" >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=232) > "it also helped that over the four and a half years that I collaborated with a Wits professor where we developed COVID-19 tasks and actually implemented them in the classroom, and the kids really enjoyed that." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professional development · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=247) > "I feel that if you have the textbook open, you're just going to rely on the textbook and read from the textbook, but if you created the notes yourself, you already created the examples, and it's more spontaneous in the moment" >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Teaching without textbooks · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=295) > "it can be quite intimidating for teachers when we ask them at their interviews, do you need a textbook to teach? The ones that say yes, we start questioning the content knowledge and their confidence in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teaching without textbooks · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=328) > "So when I've got eight kids in a class who despise math, to be honest, getting them to shout out numbers and be part of the learning process helps them make a connection to the subject that they might not want to be a part of." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Teaching without textbooks · [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=363) > "Like, especially when, like with COVID-19, there was a lot of data being generated in that time, and to actually make the learner see, how can I link what I know in statistics with the COVID-19 data?" >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Making maths relevant · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=404) > "I think the first word that pops into my mind is passion. You have to be passionate about your subject. For example, Gillian and I, our first priority is math. That's what we love, and teaching is how we express that," >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [07:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=456) > "So a teacher, you need the right, how can we say, pedagogical content knowledge. In simple words, it's not just good enough that you know the content, but you have to try and make it accessible for your learner." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=503) > "unabashedly we always say we'd like teachers that have an undergrad degree with an honors or even a master's, but with a PGCE because they have a deeper knowledge, and have taken the subject matter a little bit further." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=527) > "especially about equity in your maths classroom. Who's getting access to your questions? I mean, are you asking specific learners questions only, or are your learners getting an opportunity to participate?" >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Classroom equity · [09:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=583) > "I've actually done research with novice teachers, so they don't really like to deviate from topic. but more experienced teachers, they are more willing, if there's something that's unexpected, to actually explore that in their lesson." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Novice and experienced teachers · [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=640) > "If you're confident in your knowledge, you're more willing to be that elastic band and stretch and snap, whereas I think teachers that are more rigid in their Thought process or what they've learned are, they, they don't want to stretch and snap because they might be under-mined." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Novice and experienced teachers · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=687) > "Because when I worked at a government school, I was teaching like thirty-five learners, and it's very hard in that you've got like forty minutes per lesson, if something unexpected comes to actually explore an, unexpected maths concept." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=714) > "I have been in contact with various teachers who started teaching in relatively similar positions at the same time as me, and the amount of growth that I've experienced in comparison to them is astounding." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Professional development · [12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=769) > "Well, you're kind of the HOD of your own subject at Edu Inc, and with that comes a lot of responsibility, and you, you get it done. that in itself makes you grow." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Professional development · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=826) > "so as staff, you have like around two thousand rand under the budget each year, so you can choose what courses to do, and if you teach back the course to the staff through the Crossfire Nation, you get half the money back." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professional development · [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=912) > "so I know in 2019 and 2020, I applied to be a IEB marker and I was accepted. So yeah, in that space there was, in terms of marking, I did mark NSC papers." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professional development · [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=940) > "I had a lot of support, from the person who's the head of the cluster. I got a lot of support when I first started as a maths teacher, and she showed me everything, how to put the file together." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professional development · [16:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=988) > "you first of all have to be organized and then very adaptive. So that would be something about like having your lesson planned and relatively structured, and then being able to bounce off of the relationships" >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1050) > "When there's deadlines, you need to make sure that you meet the deadlines, time your sleep. So for instance, if you have exam papers that need to be signed off by your phase head, you give it in advance and don't leave things to the last minute." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professionalism · [18:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1124) > "the word I was looking for ties into passion, it ties into what you're saying about being professional and a grown-up, and that is self-awareness, self-knowledge, self-confidence, because it's your space," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Professionalism · [19:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1189) > "it's important to maintain that boundary, because very easy for the, when I, when I taught in large classes, there's a strict boundary, but I noticed at Edu Inc, it gets blurred a bit." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Teacher-learner relationships · [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1242) > "Another thing that's really nice about the small class sizes, as we're discussing the marking, is the kids get almost instant feedback. As they've done the assessment, it gets marked, and within a day or two, they know where they went wrong," >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [21:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1312) > "because it's so small, you can actually give them very detailed feedback, like knowledge routine you did quite well, but maybe complex or problem-solving you're struggling with. So I do that for each learner." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [22:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1343) > "I know when I walk into either of your classrooms, you're sitting with the kids in a group working together. You're not standing at the front of the classroom with that traditional, you know, sage on the stage kind of scenario." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small class teaching · [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1376) > "I know in traditional classrooms, we're very used to having a teacher table, like I had when I was working in a government school, but when I came here, it was a bit of a culture shock where I saw there's no teacher table, you have to sit with the learners." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Small class teaching · [23:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1399) > "Those cognitive levels are broken up into four stages. The first is your knowledge. That's just definitions, parrot learn it, and that's it." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1495) > "then we've got your complex or multiple step procedures. So that's anything that takes a few steps to do, anything that we manipulate the wording to make it more complex, and then finally we have your explanation, your analysis," >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [25:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1529) > "problem solving is something that's unseen in a way. It's an unpredictable type of question, but you have to integrate across different strands. Like I know in the paper one IAB question, you have to work backwards from a parabola to a cubic function." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1570) > "the learner will know exactly where they are in terms of their strengths. Are they good with knowledge and routine, but they maybe struggle with something with the multi-step procedure or something a bit unfamiliar." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1683) > "understanding how the paper's been structured gives you an element of control because you know what to expect, and it might mitigate some of the anxiety that's going into an exam." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [28:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1707) > "the way the IEB structures the exams, like the metric exam, section A, about seventy-five marks, that's really knowledge and routine, and section B is more your complex and problem solving." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Cognitive levels in maths · [28:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1733) > "The first is your CV, so we know what your qualifications are. The second thing is your SAIT certificate, so we know that you're allowed to teach and are qualified to teach. And the third thing we ask for is a video of yourself teaching." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1786) > "It's definitely the video. We want to see you in the teaching environment, whether that be you teaching your, a class, or you teaching a group of teenagers." >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1807) > "the thing with the video, though, it is tough because you don't have learners in real time where they're asking you questions or something's unexpected." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1820) > "one of our biggest frustrations at the moment is How many people do not send that video, and it's probably the most important part of, of the process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1874) > "once, Jax and myself as the heads of the school have met you, because we like what we've seen, we then hand you over to a panel, of teachers," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [31:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1885) > "I think it's to find out whether you're the right fit, for Edu Inc, whether you're going to fit the culture, and we can probe you a little more to find out, if, are you willing to put in the effort, to stay every afternoon." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: School culture and fit · [31:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1918) > "In my interview process, the Second interview was definitely the most scary. I was a lot more nervous with that than I was for my interview with Jax and Gersh, the heads of the school," >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: Hiring maths teachers at Edu Inc · [32:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=1956) > "it's about being part of Whatever's going on at the school, whether that's a club, whether that's putting in some extra time with the students, whether it's, attending an event or looking after the school hamster" >, Lauren Snow, guest · topic: School culture and fit · [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2052) > "the second thing is I say to parent, to the, the students and the teachers, you're going to work harder than you've ever worked before." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School culture and fit · [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2101) > "I never thought I'd ever have to be a chief, individually running a check exam session. But yeah, I got into it, and it's a lot of hard work, but yeah, you'll do things that you didn't expect that you're gonna be doing," >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: School culture and fit · [35:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2118) > "you cannot expect kids to get out of their comfort zone if you as a teacher are not prepared to get out of your own comfort zone at times." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School culture and fit · [35:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2140) > "it's not been a smooth ride. There's been a lot of bumps along the way, but it's been very productive. I've learned a lot more, than in the previous school I worked at, so I'm grateful for that." >, Julian Mudliar, guest · topic: Professional development · [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1251863_high.mp3#t=2336) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Today the "Geek Squad" (AKA the senior math department) are in the studio to talk about a rare vacancy that has opened up as a result of a teacher heading off to a doctorate in mathematics. If you've ever wondered what it takes to be a REAL teacher at Edu Inc, then take a listen. And share with any teachers you know who may be up to the challenge. Are you brave enough to see how good you could be as a teacher? Edu Inc Teaching Vacancies · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## 'Good enough' should not define your child's education - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-11-08-good-enough-should-not-define-your/ - Date: 2022-11-08 (as at 2022-11-08) - Guest: Mike Stopforth - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Choosing a school, Leadership and school culture, Corporate versus independent schools, Involving children in decisions, Parents' due diligence, Education beyond marks - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1249315 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mike Stopforth - Director · Beyond Binary - Runs a business interested in the intersection of leadership, technology and impact, and works with business leaders navigating digital transformation. In their own words: > "The business is interested in what, lies at the intersection of leadership and technology and impact. And I, I deal a lot with business leaders who are trying to navigate some of the challenges around digital transformation." [00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=48) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Hosts Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison of Education Incorporated talk with Mike Stopforth, who runs a business focused on leadership, technology and impact, about moving his six-year-old daughter from a convenient, shareholder-driven private school to an independently run one at similar cost. Mike argues that leadership shapes culture, and that the principal's intentionality is what differentiates otherwise similar schools. The conversation widens to how parents make emotional, convenience-based school choices, how far children should be involved in the decision, and why parents should question schools as partners. The hosts add that school value should be measured by the person produced, not just marks. **Key ideas** - Mike argues that culture, set by leadership style, determines whether organisations succeed, and applies this to schools. ([00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=42) [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=59) [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=60)) - Mike contrasts a school run to report profit to shareholders with one existing as its own end, which showed more focus on teachers and community. ([07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=473) [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=530) [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=573)) - Mike says standardised school brands can still vary dramatically depending on who runs them, likening it to Wimpy restaurants where only staff engagement differs. ([12:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=751) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=790) [14:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=844) [14:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=870)) - Mike notes parents' school choices are often emotional and based on their own outdated experiences, with location and affordability dominating. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=214) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=276) [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=334)) - Mike distinguishes involving children in decisions from letting them make decisions; Gershom holds the adult should make the final call. ([21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1276) [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1370) [26:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1560)) - Mike argues his generation was bred to trust institutions and parents must unlearn this and question schools as partners. ([39:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2398) [40:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2414) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2480)) - Gershom argues the return on education should be measured by the person produced, not only by marks. ([42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2526) [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2540) [43:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2589)) **Lessons** - Mike's experience suggests that meeting a school's leadership and watching whether stated values show up in teachers and students reveals culture. ([00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=42) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=668) [12:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=721)) - Mike cautions that a school meeting is a sales pitch and outcomes also depend on luck with individual teachers. ([07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=473) [10:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=605)) - Mike advises parents that they can change their mind; over-obsessing about the perfect school can paralyse action. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1345)) - Mike says parents should not expect a school to cover everything and should supplement with other communities such as Scouts. ([34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2061) [35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2126) [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2156)) - Jacqueline advises doing due diligence and accepting that past choices were the best possible with the information available then. ([37:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2263)) **Who it's for:** Parents in South Africa weighing up private schools, especially those comparing corporate-owned and independently run options at similar fees, or deciding how much say their children should have in school and university choices. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mike's commute to the first school was four minutes; to the new school it is 22 to 23 minutes on an average day. ([07:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=476)) - Mike attended Benoni Junior, Benoni West and Benoni High on the East Rand. ([17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1070)) - Mike says corporate-styled schooling has been a revolution in South African education over the last 20 years. ([12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=765)) - Mike recalls a 1986 visit to Benoni Junior School with a model of grenades and mines. ([40:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2440)) - Mike's brother matriculated from the National School of the Arts. ([30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1805)) - The hosts' nephew was a 2020 COVID matric; their niece earned four honours blazers at Bryanston. ([32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1963) [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1999)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why can two private schools with similar fees feel so different?** A: Mike Stopforth argues the difference comes from leadership: one school he saw was run to report profit to shareholders, the other existed to be the best school it could be, with greater focus on teachers and community. ([07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=473) [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=530) [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=573) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=790)) **Q: What really drives how parents choose a school?** A: Mike says location, then affordability, usually dominate, and his own choice was emotional and convenience-based. Jacqueline recounts an analysis showing a local school's waiting list was about location and road access. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=276) [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=334) [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=404)) **Q: Should I let my child choose their own school?** A: Mike distinguishes involving children from letting them decide, favouring shared accountability; Gershom believes the adult should make the final decision while teaching the child how it was reached. ([21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1276) [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1370) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1528) [26:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1560)) **Q: Why do parents let children decide where to go to school?** A: Mike thinks it is not lack of care but because parents are terrified of disappointing their children. ([23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1424) [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1432)) **Q: What happens if I pick the wrong school?** A: Mike says children are adaptable and parents can change their minds; Jacqueline tells parents they made the best decision possible with the information at the time. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1345) [37:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2263)) **Q: How should parents relate to their child's school?** A: Mike says parents are in partnership with the school and should ask questions as they would of a fund manager, rather than deferring to it as an authority. ([39:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2398) [40:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2414) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2480)) **Q: Should a school provide every activity my child needs?** A: Mike says no institution can cover all bases; parents should know what they expect of the school and supplement with other experiences, as Scouts did for his son. ([34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2061) [35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2126) [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2156)) **Q: How should I judge the return on school fees?** A: Gershom compares fees to a wealth-manager investment and advises auditing it, measuring returns by the depth of the person being created, not just marks. ([02:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=165) [42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2526) [43:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2589)) ### Passage: The email: two schools, one surprise meeting [00:42-02:22, 315 words] Note (AI): Sets out Mike's thesis that leadership shapes culture and the story of moving his daughter after an unexpected school meeting. Mike Stopforth, guest [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=42): > So, so the email is, is, is part of a, a, a marketing initiative around a business that I run. The business is interested in what, lies at the intersection of leadership and technology and impact. And I, I deal a lot with business leaders who are trying to navigate some of the challenges around digital transformation. And my theory is that digital transformation works or fails almost entirely based on the culture of an organization, and that, as we all know, is largely, determined and dictated to by the style of leadership of that, that entity. And I wanted to use the analogy of picking a school for my six-year-old daughter, an appropriate, primary, school for my daughter, and we, we landed up picking initially a school that was super convenient, really close to where we lived. It was the most easy, pain-free decision to make, and, and we believed that we were based almost exclusively on the amount of money that we were paying, making a good decision that would be kind of endorsed The quality of the, the institution that we were investing in. We only realized that maybe that wasn't the best decision when we got a phone call from a school that we'd put her name down at earlier in the process. Didn't imagine we'd get in there. and when we got the phone call, we went for a meeting, again, kind of reluctantly, because we were sort of happy where we were, met with that school, and we're just really blown away, really astounded at the contrast between that experience and, and what we were kind of okay with already. And yeah, it got me thinking a lot about the role that leadership can have in making two completely otherwise similar entities substantially different in the way they're approached, in this case, the, the topic of educating our children. ### Passage: Shareholder-driven school versus school as its own end [07:53-10:57, 547 words] Note (AI): Mike's detailed comparison of commute, ownership model, teacher focus and community, with his own caveats about being sold a story and luck. Mike Stopforth, guest [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=473): > Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it's worth pointing out, though, that the difference in the, in the commutes between these two schools is, in the one case it was four minutes, in the other case it's 22, 23 minutes on an average day. so it's, it's quite substantially different, but it's not insurmountably far. we're not driving 45 minutes, because I think if it was 45 minutes, we would have, she would still be in the previous school, if I'm honest with you, I don't know if we would have made that, decision. It was within the, the, the realm of what was still reasonable for us. So I think it's still a big factor, and in a, a load-shed Johannesburg one out of 17 traffic lights working world, that's definitely, definitely has some weight. Okay, so that's the, that's the first thing. The massive distinction for me, and, you know, being, being really interested in how organizations are formed and how they create value and how they run and how they run over, over years as they evolve, was the substantial difference in an institution that was clearly created and, and running for the purposes of being able to report a profit back to, to shareholders. And then an institution that existed for the purposes exclusively of being essentially its own end, the, the very best school that we can be with the resources that we have available to us, for all intents and purposes, kind of a nonprofit mindset, for lack of a better, better phrase. Neither of those are, are perfect models. They both have their pros and cons. But in our, in our instance, and in our experience of this particular example, the one that intended to be a school in and of itself, first, had what appeared to be a far greater focus on the quality of the team that worked around our children, the quality of the instruction and development of those, talented teachers, the level of intentionality, the, the kind of Community feel, a lot more investment in building the parent-teacher-student community. So there, you know, there were just subtle things that became big things when we added them, all together. Having said that, it's not lost on me that I could have gone to that meeting and been sold a wonderful story by, obviously, the person who's best positioned to tell me that story. That's their job, right? And then, you know, the first teacher that my child had in grade one could have been, there could have been a significant personality clash, or it might not have worked as well as it did. We, we got lucky. you know, I, I, I know the, the impact and weight and the kind of ripples through one's life of the impact of a really good teacher at those formative, stages, well, any stage of one's educational career, but especially those early, early years. We got lucky. she loves her teacher, but it could have been different. It could have been somebody that she didn't connect with. So, yeah, again, I, I'm not suggesting that the one is a perfect model and the other isn't. There's just so many variables in what makes it work for one and not for another. ### Passage: The Wimpy analogy and the principal's role [12:31-14:45, 421 words] Note (AI): Explains why standardised school brands still vary: staff engagement and the principal's intentionality make the difference. Mike Stopforth, guest [12:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=751): > I, I imagine so. I'd hope so. and I suppose, again, it depends on who you're having that conversation with and their role in, in reinforcing those principles. But yeah, it's, it's, if you'll excuse the pun, it's really interesting to me that the impact of more corporate-styled schooling, more, call it brand-based, building these, these incredible, schools across the country that have a very high standard of education and give access to so many more people for, for a really high standard of education, that's been a revolution, I think, in education in South Africa over the last 20 years, and I don't want to poo-poo that at all. but I think what, what we certainly experience is that the variance in the experience of that individual institution can, can be quite dramatic depending on who, who's running that particular school. That was, that Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=799): > was really the crux of your, your email, that you felt that it was the leadership style or the, the leadership intention that was different between the two schools, because one leader was reporting to shareholders and, and whatnot, from a corporate perspective, whereas the other leader didn't have those pressures. They didn't have the corporate pressures. Their pressures were more on education delivery, and how do I get that right? Mike Stopforth, guest [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=824): > Yeah, I love a wimpy. I'm not an expert on much, but I'm pretty, pretty, authoritative when it comes to wimpies in my local area. But I'm being facetious, but, but like everything is the same in a wimpy, everything, even the size of the store, the menu, the stuff it's printed on, the, the, how the food tastes, how the eggs are cooked, everything is standardized. The only thing that could possibly be different is how staff are engaged and motivated, and you can feel that. Right. You feel it, you know, if everything else is the same, that's the one thing that will feel different, and it can feel substantially different. And, and so I think that's what I'm saying is that, what it ultimately comes down to, and this is not unique, obviously, to education, but it's, it's It feels like it's exacerbated in that environment. the role of the principal and the intentionality of the principal and the amount of buy-in and support that, that he or she has from the community of people that make their jobs possible, one of the hardest jobs in the world, that has a massive, massive impact on the way the school comes to life. ### Passage: Mike's own school decisions across two marriages [15:19-18:29, 592 words] Note (AI): Personal history of outsourced and hindsight-driven school choices, and how his own schooling helped him recognise a good culture. Mike Stopforth, guest [15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=919): > Yeah, so, so I mean, it's worth giving a bit more context, because this is not the first time I've made a decision about where to send a child to school. I was married before, I have two older kids, one is 17, and another one is four, 13. Oh my God, I hope she doesn't listen to this, 13. And then the little one is, is six. the two older ones, my, my ex-wife is a, is a school teacher. Again, a, a grade one, primary school teacher, read into that what you want. And what was really interesting was in, in that relationship, I kind of outsourced almost entirely the decision-making process to, to Wendy, because she is absolutely the authority in our dynamic on the topic. she would do instinctively a lot of the due diligence. She would, you know, chat on the teacher grapevine around what options were available and, and, you know, when, when we were, when we lived in Benoni and when we had to make a decision about where to send, my eldest, we did a lot of homework. And actually, Wendy and Ethan kind of moved to the same school together. So she got a new position at a very good primary school in Benoni, and he was at the school as well, and that worked amazingly well for us, for a very long time. Until they moved down to Cape Town, then we had to make a completely new set of decisions about schools that we really knew absolutely nothing about whatsoever. That was a different experience. that came down to where Wendy could get a, a teaching post, and she felt most comfortable having the kids at the same school that she was. Also, just logistically, it was easier. But that, That the first school in Cape Town was almost certainly not the right school for them. Now, again, in retrospect, once we were able to compare or create contrast, it was the best solution under the circumstances for us, but definitely when we looked at it and evaluated it afterwards, and Wendy and I have spoken about this at length, it was, you know, it wasn't. Now, my second wife, Anna, defers to me on school decisions because my mom's a teacher, and I've had two kids, so I'm supposed to have more experience in this realm. So it's really interesting that, like, my experience of the decision-making around these, you know, tectonic moments for our children have been very different depending on the two relationships. Now, not everybody will have that experience, but in this instance, I think when we went to have that introductory meeting, there was something that rekindled, something I recognized as being a very familiar Feeling about, and, and, and that feeling was I was just, I was extraordinarily lucky as a young kid to go to three pretty remarkable schools on the East Rand, a lot of variability in them. I went to Benoni Junior, Benoni West, and Benoni High. Managed to avoid Benoni Technicon, thank God. but, but yeah, so they, but they were extraordinary schools, in no small part because the, the principals that were in those schools, one of them, Brian Lotto, who is at Benoni High School for many years, is legendary. Points I'm making is that I got a sense at that age of what it meant to be in a safe, inspiring, encouraging, challenging, resilience-building environment, where people really, really cared about what was happening on your education journey. ### Passage: Involving children without handing them the decision [21:16-23:43, 526 words] Note (AI): Mike's answer on child-led school choices: resilience, changing your mind, shared accountability and his son's university due diligence. Mike Stopforth, guest [21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1276): > So, Jax, there's a couple of things that I want to pick up on there. so as much as I've used, big adjectives to try and describe how seriously we took this decision, I do also think that our children are incredibly adaptable and incredibly resilient, and you can obsess to the point of a paralysis, picking the exact right path for them, and land up actually not being able to act, and that can be just as bad. the, the important thing to remember, I think, about your child's educational journey is that it is a partnership with you and them, and that it is a discussion, and that obviously they don't just get to go out and feel like doing this, or I don't want to do it, or whatever it might be, but, but there is certainly room to go, is this the right journey for you, and, and how do we know that, and, and, you know, what are you experiencing, and, and so on. And, and like we say, we could, we could put them in the best environment, and they could land up in a classroom with a, a very unpleasant element that makes, you know, a bully or whatever, that makes a great environment a terrible environment for them, and all the other variables might be right. So, you know, it, it's difficult to know to any degree of certitude, but I think I think parents need to take comfort in the fact that you can change your mind and you can evolve your thinking about what's right for your child and so on. And my brother had a very different schooling journey to me because he has very different needs. So, you know, my ex, Wendy, she was at Benoni High School too. She hated it. She landed up at, at Queens and, and Joburg and loved it. So, you know, no two children are the same. And so we've got to, we've got to be very open-minded about that. I think there's a substantial difference between involving our children in decisions, any decision, and having them make the decision. I think, I think a level of shared accountability and responsibility is so important in terms of their feeling, like I have equity in this, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm accountable, I, I helped choose this journey. Yeah, there's buy-in. I've looked at, yeah, so I've been thinking about this a lot with my son and his university, choices now. And I don't know that we've gotten it right, but it feels like him and I have done a lot of thinking and a lot of talking about it and a lot of due diligence and where we've been able to, we've tried to invest in getting him connected to people that have been to different institutions and different faculties and really, you know, kind of get into the meat of, yeah. And again, I don't care if he changes within six months, but at least we gave him the right foundation to, to think about it himself and, and share equity in the, in the decision-making process. ### Passage: Unlearning blind trust in educational institutions [39:58-41:45, 376 words] Note (AI): Links Mike's apartheid-era schooling to parents' deference and argues for questioning schools like a fund manager. Mike Stopforth, guest [39:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2398): > Yeah, yeah. Asking piercing questions. I've got this weird thing where even at the age of 42, if I'm in any principal's office, I start to have like heart palpitations. So we were, but I, there's actually a deeper thing around this, which I, I, I don't want to get into, into too much depth right now, but certainly my generation of privileged, certainly white South Africans were bred at a very young age to trust centralized educational institutions, largely because those institutions were, you know, they, they were propagating a very dysfunctional system and had to do a very good job of forcing us to trust the way they worked. You know, that was how it worked. if you could indoctrinate people at the ear, earliest levels, I mean, I was telling a bunch of young guys that I trained with the other day that I remember at six, six years old, having somebody come into Benoni Junior School, it's 1986, with a, a black wall model. Extruded model of, of like grenades and mines that you had to be careful of if you saw in the school playground. I remember that. No, I remember it. I swear to God. I hope I'm not imagining this. Gav, Gav's shaking his head like he remembers it. Thank God. All right. But no, I re- like that was the schooling environment. So now, what I'm saying is the product of that is that we, we were bred to trust centralized educational institutions as being immutable forces of authority in our lives. And part of what we need to unlearn is, is you're, you're in partnership with the, with the school. You, you are working with them to get to the right outcome, and then you must, you must ask questions like you would of a fund manager, to go back to, you know, Gersh's analogy earlier on, like, are we making the right decisions about where we're investing this money, and how do I know that, and how do we develop that trust and that simpatico, not just a yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir, I appreciate you, you, you know, offering us the privilege of having our child in your school. It's a partnership. ### Quotes > "digital transformation works or fails almost entirely based on the culture of an organization," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=60) > "The problem is that I went to school thirty years ago, right?" >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [03:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=220) > "The only thing that could possibly be different is how staff are engaged and motivated, and you can feel that." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=845) > "I remember the way that made me feel. I don't remember learning about Macbeth," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [19:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1143) > "I think parents do it because we're terrified of disappointing our children, most of us." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1432) > "I think sometimes kids also like to know that the adult is still driving the car." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [26:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1579) > "our job is not to pay the school to do the job of being a parent." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [35:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2127) > "get comfortable in the mud, get comfortable getting dirty, and don't fear getting in the mud." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [36:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2218) > "None of us remember our metric marks, but all of us remember the journey." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2540) > "That journey that you walk with your kid, not, not for them." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · [44:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2656) ### Claims > "The business is interested in what, lies at the intersection of leadership and technology and impact. And I, I deal a lot with business leaders who are trying to navigate some of the challenges around digital transformation." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=48) > "my theory is that digital transformation works or fails almost entirely based on the culture of an organization, and that, as we all know, is largely, determined and dictated to by the style of leadership of that, that entity." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=59) > "we landed up picking initially a school that was super convenient, really close to where we lived. It was the most easy, pain-free decision to make, and, and we believed that we were based almost exclusively on the amount of money that we were paying, making a good decision" >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=83) > "investing in your child's education is, I think, the difference between using somebody to do unit trusts where you just go, here it is, and you trust that it's getting done, or using a wealth manager." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [02:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=165) > "The, the decision we make about what school we want to send our kids to is going to be informed largely by our own experiences. The problem is that I went to school thirty years ago, right? So the, the school system is different." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=214) > "generally speaking, at a primary school level, it's about, it's about, location, location, location. And then the second variable will be affordability, and then the third, I guess, would be some of the other things." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=276) > "I'm surrounded by teachers, and yet even my decision-making process was quite, instinctual and, and emotional in, in that moment. Very much more convenience and emotion-based than maybe via the really good objective, logical benchmarks that we just spoke about." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=334) > "And it turned out, when we got down to the crux of it, that it was location. It was where the school was located and access to the schools in terms of roads. It was as simple as that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=404) > "I could actually, for the very same cost, the same value, be getting good plus. I could be getting a whole lot more here. Same, same money, but a lot more bang for buck." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=445) > "the difference in the, in the commutes between these two schools is, in the one case it was four minutes, in the other case it's 22, 23 minutes on an average day." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [07:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=476) > "was the substantial difference in an institution that was clearly created and, and running for the purposes of being able to report a profit back to, to shareholders. And then an institution that existed for the purposes exclusively of being essentially its own end," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Corporate versus independent schools · [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=530) > "had what appeared to be a far greater focus on the quality of the team that worked around our children, the quality of the instruction and development of those, talented teachers, the level of intentionality, the, the kind of Community feel, a lot more investment in building the parent-teacher-student community." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=573) > "it's not lost on me that I could have gone to that meeting and been sold a wonderful story by, obviously, the person who's best positioned to tell me that story." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [10:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=605) > "that was evidenced in the language around values and principles that seemed to be consistent throughout almost every interaction that we had with everybody in the school." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=668) > "what was different for me here was this was a kind of A very creative expression of the absolute truth of what they intended to do as an institution, and then that's been reinforced ever since." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [12:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=721) > "the impact of more corporate-styled schooling, more, call it brand-based, building these, these incredible, schools across the country that have a very high standard of education and give access to so many more people for, for a really high standard of education, that's been a revolution, I think, in education in South Africa over the last 20 years," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Corporate versus independent schools · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=765) > "the variance in the experience of that individual institution can, can be quite dramatic depending on who, who's running that particular school." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Corporate versus independent schools · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=790) > "everything is standardized. The only thing that could possibly be different is how staff are engaged and motivated, and you can feel that." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [14:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=844) > "the role of the principal and the intentionality of the principal and the amount of buy-in and support that, that he or she has from the community of people that make their jobs possible, one of the hardest jobs in the world, that has a massive, massive impact on the way the school comes to life." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [14:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=870) > "I kind of outsourced almost entirely the decision-making process to, to Wendy, because she is absolutely the authority in our dynamic on the topic." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [15:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=950) > "That the first school in Cape Town was almost certainly not the right school for them." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1010) > "I was extraordinarily lucky as a young kid to go to three pretty remarkable schools on the East Rand, a lot of variability in them. I went to Benoni Junior, Benoni West, and Benoni High." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1070) > "I got a sense at that age of what it meant to be in a safe, inspiring, encouraging, challenging, resilience-building environment, where people really, really cared about what was happening on your education journey." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Leadership and school culture · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1095) > "I had the most extraordinary English teacher in grade eleven and twelve, and, and I have no doubt that my passion for that, you know, for link, communication is in no small part due to her inspiration." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Education beyond marks · [18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1131) > "One of the things we hear quite often when we, we're talking to prospective parents is the child's going to make this decision." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Involving children in decisions · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1211) > "our children are incredibly adaptable and incredibly resilient, and you can obsess to the point of a paralysis, picking the exact right path for them, and land up actually not being able to act, and that can be just as bad." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1289) > "parents need to take comfort in the fact that you can change your mind and you can evolve your thinking about what's right for your child and so on." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1345) > "I think there's a substantial difference between involving our children in decisions, any decision, and having them make the decision." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Involving children in decisions · [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1370) > "I don't think that parents defer to their children's whims on this topic because they don't care about their education. I think parents do it because we're terrified of disappointing our children, most of us." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Involving children in decisions · [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1424) > "Opportunities like this to partner with a child on making big decisions that affect their lives, big decisions on an investment that's going to shape who they are as people is a great opportunity to teach how to make good decisions." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Involving children in decisions · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1528) > "fundamentally, I believe the adult is the one that should make the final decision at the end of the day as an opportunity to teach the children how we get to that decision as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Involving children in decisions · [26:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1560) > "these are the four institutions I think are really good options for us. These are some of the faculties. Like if we do a matrix, these are the faculties that these four institutions are really strong in, right?" >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Involving children in decisions · [27:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1636) > "Where these kids are growing up in the generation of the long tail, anything you want is customized, made for you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1745) > "If you're in a position to take advantage of a long tail, which is a school that has a specific niche or is specifically there for a specific reason or known for it, and your child, and that suits your child's needs, then certainly consider it" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1785) > "he landed up matriculating from the National School of the Arts. That's where he was most happy, he was most fulfilled, and certainly where his talents and gifts found a home." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Choosing a school · [30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1805) > "And then of all things, but only high school had a very good Scottish pipe band, bizarrely enough. And I discovered that thing, and I was like, I want to do that. And that became my little long-tail community." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Education beyond marks · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1905) > "he was a, a COVID matric, a 2020 matric, so a lot of his year was spent out of school studying on his own. But he loved it and absolutely thrived in it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1963) > "But Bryanston was the place for her to go to, and four honors blazers later and in, you know, into everything at the school, it was the right place for her to be," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=1999) > "no institution can cover all of those bases. I mean, that's, that's pretty obvious. What, what am I expecting the school to do, and how do I measure the efficacy of that?" >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2061) > "Edu Inc, because of our size, is a bit of a print on demand. You know, We don't have the huge sports fields." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing a school · [34:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2089) > "as parents, our job is not to pay the school to do the job of being a parent. our job is to be parents and ask the school to do the job that we expect it to do" >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2126) > "if I look at the impact it's had on him from a leadership and independence and capability and resilience perspective, it's been extraordinary." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Education beyond marks · [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2156) > "The only thing that sounds like a recipe is that conversation needs to happen, reflection needs to happen, and honesty needs to happen. Sometimes you might have to divorce your educational experience from what your child's is," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parents' due diligence · [36:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2188) > "you've got to reconcile that you made the best decision you could at that time with the information you had at that time. So do your due diligence so that you have the best information available when you are playing in mud." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parents' due diligence · [37:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2263) > "my generation of privileged, certainly white South Africans were bred at a very young age to trust centralized educational institutions," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [40:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2414) > "I remember at six, six years old, having somebody come into Benoni Junior School, it's 1986, with a, a black wall model." >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [40:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2440) > "you're in partnership with the, with the school. You, you are working with them to get to the right outcome, and then you must, you must ask questions like you would of a fund manager," >, Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Parents' due diligence · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2480) > "And I think that any school that is focusing entirely on just getting good marks creates a very shallow person. And I think that we need to remind ourselves that the educational journey is about the human being that comes out at the end of it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Education beyond marks · [42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2526) > "My advice to parents as a, as an educator and somebody who's passionate about growing people is curate that process. You don't necessarily have to interfere in that process, but audit it" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parents' due diligence · [43:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2589) > "Just as every child go has their own educational journey, every parent is also Walking alongside their child on the journey." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Involving children in decisions · [44:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1249315_high.mp3#t=2644) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) In this episode, Gershom and Jax Aitchison (Headmaster and Executive Head of Education Incorporated) talk to Mike Stopforth (Director at Beyond Binary) about his decision to move his young daughter from a corporate-owned private school to an independently run private school. He discusses his experience of two private schools with similar fee structures but very different cultures: one whose leadership is driven by shareholders; the other whose leadership is driven by quality relationships, and the effect of these leadership styles on the culture of the schools as a whole. Connect with Mike on LinkedIn · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Inspiring message to the class of 2022. - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-11-03-inspiring-message-to-the-class-of/ - Date: 2022-11-03 (as at 2022-11-03) - Guest: Colin Iles - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Valediction rite of passage, Exponential technology futures, Automation and free services, Humanities in a tech world, Curiosity as life strategy - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1247572 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Colin Iles - Gave the talk at Edu Inc's Valediction, sharing his thoughts on what the future might look like for the school's future alumni. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Headmaster Gershom Aitchison introduces a recorded message from Colin Iles to Edu Inc's graduating class, delivered at the school's Valediction. Colin sketches possible futures enabled by converging technologies: longer lifespans, telepathy, food preservation without fridges, and energy, data and transport costs moving towards zero. He admits nobody knows how likely this is and argues that human philosophies and the humanities will shape lives more than science. His single piece of advice to the graduates is to stay curious for as long as they can. **Key ideas** - Colin argues graduates face multiple Gutenberg moments at once, with technologies that augment one another. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=177) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=185) [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=200)) - Colin suggests the class could see lifespans into the hundreds of years, telepathy at scale, and food preserved without fridges. ([01:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=81) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=98) [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=127) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=142)) - Colin reasons that converging trends in connectivity, chips, batteries, algorithms and solar could make transport free or very cheap. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=210) [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=271) [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=326) [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=349)) - Colin speculates that automating productivity from sunlight could challenge the concept of money. ([06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=376) [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=388)) - Colin holds that lives will be determined more by our philosophies, and that the humanities show how we work within the world. ([06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=406) [07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=432) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461)) - Colin's one suggestion is to stay curious, which he says opens possibilities, avoids hubris and judgement, and deepens friendships. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=511) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=532) [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=572) [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=599) [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=615)) **Lessons** - Colin advises accepting failure and looking foolish as part of experimenting, comparing it to learning to ride a bicycle. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=557)) - Colin argues curiosity helps leaders keep unlearning and relearning, and stay interested in what peers and staff say. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=572) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=587)) - Colin maintains humans will still design the rules, even where machines make determinations later. ([07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=475) [08:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=484)) - Colin says there is no excuse for limiting what you are curious about in an exponential world. ([10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=629)) **Who it's for:** Graduating students and their parents, Edu Inc's school community, and anyone curious about how exponential technologies might shape the next generation's lives and which personal qualities Colin Iles thinks will matter. **Facts stated in the episode** - Colin Iles says battery improvement in 2018 was 60%, as China came on stream. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=271)) - Colin says solar costs have fallen every year for the last 30 or 40 years at a 10, 15, 20% rate. ([05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=326)) - Colin cites Starlink placing satellites to give internet access to every corner of the globe. ([03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=222)) - Gershom Aitchison is headmaster and co-founder of Education Incorporated. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=4)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the Valediction at Edu Inc?** A: Gershom Aitchison describes it as a very important rite of passage where students share their journey with peers and parents and acknowledge the people who helped and supported them. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=4) [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=8) [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=13)) **Q: How did Gershom Aitchison meet Colin Iles?** A: Gershom says they met on a podcast that didn't become a podcast because they agreed on too much, which showed a likeness in thinking about education and the future. ([00:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=45) [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=58)) **Q: What future technologies does Colin Iles think today's graduates might see?** A: He mentions lifespans into the hundreds of years, companies trying to reverse aging, telepathy replacing phones, food preservation without fridges, and near-zero costs for energy, data and transport. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=98) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=113) [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=127) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=142) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=169)) **Q: Could transport become free in the future?** A: Colin argues that if trends in internet access, chip power, sensors, batteries, algorithms and solar continue, the natural conclusion is transport could become free or incredibly cheap. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=210) [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=349)) **Q: Will automation make money obsolete?** A: Colin speculates that converting sunlight into automated productivity could challenge the concept of money as outdated, though he says he has no idea how likely any of this is. ([06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=388) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=406)) **Q: Why do the humanities still matter if technology keeps advancing?** A: Colin says science shows how things work but the humanities show how we work within that world, and he can't imagine outsourcing decisions about how we operate as a species to machines. ([07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461) [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=475)) **Q: What is the single best advice for school leavers facing a fast-changing world?** A: Colin's one suggestion is to be as curious as you can for as long as you can, because curiosity drives experimentation and opens up possibilities. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=511) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=532) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=532)) **Q: How does curiosity help relationships and leadership?** A: Colin says curiosity helps avoid hubris and judgement, keeps you interested in what peers and staff say, and in his experience leads to deeper, larger friendship groups. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=587) [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=599) [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=615)) ### Passage: Why the valediction matters and how Colin came [00:08-01:18, 222 words] Note (AI): The host explains the purpose of Edu Inc's Valediction and why he invited Colin Iles to speak to the graduating class. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=8): > At Edu Inc, the valediction is a very, very important rite of passage, and one of the key elements is that the students get to share their journey and their thoughts on their journey with their peers and with their parents. It's a time for them to acknowledge the people that have helped them along the path, the people who've supported them, and to kind of prepare what the future generations in the school might have to experience and the things that they might have to overcome. And we had the privilege this year of having Colin Iles talk at our valediction and share his thoughts on what the future might look like for our future alumni. I met Colin in a podcast that didn't become a podcast when we ended up agreeing on too much, and he wanted a boxing match, but what it did highlight for us is that There was a likeness in thinking on what education should look like and the future that these kids are going to be walking into. And I think that the message he gave them was very pertinent. I certainly had to listen to it more than once to take it all out. I would like to share this message with our community so that everybody understands what the future might hold for them. ### Passage: Unimaginable futures: lifespans, telepathy, fridges and Gutenberg moments [01:21-03:15, 352 words] Note (AI): Colin sets out concrete examples of technologies he believes could reshape graduates' lives, framed as multiple Gutenberg moments. Colin Iles, guest [01:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=81): > Hi everyone, I'm so sorry I couldn't be with you to celebrate the journey to date and talk to you in person about the potential futures that lie ahead. Because my word, how lucky you all are. You're now living in a world where technology is enabling futures that were unimaginable just a few years ago. Let's take an example. You could be the generation that sees average lifespans increase into the hundreds of years. I'm not just talking about the potential for cures on major dread diseases like cancers and heart attacks. Actually becoming a, a reality for you. I'm talking about companies that are raising billions of dollars who are literally, quite literally trying to reverse aging. You could also be the generation that starts to go and throw away mobile phones and interact with each other using telepathy. Telepathy is already tried and tested, converting brainwaves into text, we read it or go and retranslate it back into brainwaves. This has been done. But can it be done at scale? Will you be the generation that has implants that allows you to do this? On a more mundane note, will you be the generation that sees the fridge go the way of the fax, as we find new ways to go and preserve food using microbials and genetic engineering? After all, the fridge is only there with the, perhaps the exception of beer and wine, it's only there to preserve food. It's its primary function. And if you can use microbials to help, say, lettuce sit on the side of your kitchen for three or four months without needing a fridge, goodbye fridge. And you may be the generation that sees the cost of energy, data, and even transportation move to zero, at least for basic services. You see, you're living in a world where you aren't simply experiencing one Gutenberg moment, you're experiencing multiple ones. And the Gutenberg moment, if you don't know, was when the printing press was invented and released, and you think about how that transformed the world as effectively access to information was democratized. ### Passage: Thought experiment: how converging technologies could make transport free [03:30-05:54, 430 words] Note (AI): A worked argument stacking internet access, chips, sensors, batteries, algorithms and solar trends to reach a conclusion about near-free transport. Colin Iles, guest [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=210): > So consider, as an example, say, how transport might change if the following statements remain true over your lives. Let's imagine that the access to the internet continues increasing at exponential rates, and why not? Companies like Starlink are trying to do that as they place satellites to go and give access to every corner of the globe. Imagine that the processing power of chips continues to follow Moore's law, so everything that you've seen over the last couple of years, which is quite impressive as our phones went from one gigabyte up to 256 gigabytes and 512 gigabytes, is just blown out of the sky because we actually now go and have phones and access to technology with thousands of gigabytes of processing data. What happens if the size of sensors continues to fall so that they're smaller and cheaper, and they give better quality, just like the cameras on your phones are improving in terms of pixels? Imagine that across every sensory data set that you need to drive a car. What about the data storage, sorry, the battery storage, energy storage? We've seen batteries reducing in price, improving in capacity every single year for the last sets of decades. In 2018, we saw an improvement of 60%, as China basically came on stream. What if that continues? They get smaller, more powerful, last longer. What happens if our algorithms continue to improve, and by using the data sets that are available to them, they're actually able to self-learn to a scale we can't even imagine today? Maybe in the next couple of years, they'll even pass the Turing test, where outputs from computers become indistinguishable from what we as humans would have produced. And does this mean in turn that we can move to a, not just a low-code environment, a no-code environment, where just by asking for things to be written in code and machine language, it gets written for us? Of course, one last thing to put into the puzzle, which could change everything, is that original energy source. And my word, are we getting good at translating the sun's energy into solar, because again, that's been reducing in cost every single year, year in, year out for the last 30 or 40 years at a 10, 15, 20% rate. So my natural conclusion isn't simply that we're going to live in a world of self-driving vehicles. This is why I'm not highlighting these sets of potential conditions. The natural conclusion is we could live in a world where, in this case, transport becomes free. ### Passage: Philosophy, humanities and human fallibility over technology [06:46-08:30, 346 words] Note (AI): Colin admits uncertainty and argues that philosophies and the humanities, not science alone, will shape how people live with technology. Colin Iles, guest [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=406): > Anyway, how likely is all of this to happen? I've actually got no idea. I don't think anyone does, and I think perhaps some of you have got better ideas than anything I could come up with. Humans certainly have the possibility of making everything I've just suggested occur, and we equally have the possibility of destroying everything that's been created to date, including our own planet. So you see, where I've just described how we have the opportunity to do these amazing things by using our ever-expanding knowledge of the sciences, the reality is I think our lives are going to be more determined by our own philosophies. And to me, this should be an incredible positive, because sometimes I get incredibly depressed about the impact of technology. I feel it's going to impinge on my life in a way where I no longer know what role to play. It's moving so quickly, I lose my sense of relevance. I just feel old. I lose my sense of self. But I find remembering the following, helps. While science might show us how things work, it's the humanities that show us how we work within that world. And this is critical, because I can't imagine a world where we outsource decisions about how we should operate as a species to machines. So we're always going to still have lawyers to set rules as to who's at fault when an automated accident occurs. We might use machines to make the determination at a later point, but we will be the ones that design the rules. We'll also want historians to help us still interpret the past so we can better plan for the future. I dare say we're going to need politicians as well to continue providing us with the hope, or frustration at least, that they can actually do policies that improve the lives for everybody. So whilst the world will change in many ways, I don't think we will. Humans are going to remain as fallible as we've been for tens of thousands of years. ### Passage: One suggestion: stay curious for as long as possible [08:31-11:04, 473 words] Note (AI): The core advice of the talk: curiosity drives experimentation, avoids hubris and judgement, and builds deeper friendships. Colin Iles, guest [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=511): > So what does this mean for you? Well, perhaps a better question of thinking forward, how can you improve the chances that you continue growing from the solid basis incredible school has given you, and actually lead a fulfilling, happy, prosperous life? I've got one suggestion. I'm sorry, I've only got one suggestion. And it's not an easy one, actually, when I think about it. But I want you to try to be as curious as you can for as long as you can. Because being curious, I think, opens up a world of possibilities. It's curiosity that's going to drive you to experiment and to try new things. It's curiosity that's going to drive you to go and explore new spaces and new worlds and new ideologies. And if you've got that ability to be curious, it also allows you to get out and run these experiments, and sometimes you're going to fail and you're going to fall over and things aren't going to make sense, you're even going to make yourselves look relatively stupid. But just like riding a bicycle, by being curious and trying these new things, you grow, you learn, you get better, you go and advance yourselves. Incidentally, I think curiosity is what helps us to avoid, hubris. It's horrible. I would never want to be someone who's being perceived by others as a dictator, someone who doesn't listen, who is unable to take advice from others, especially if I'm in a leadership position. And I think curiosity helps you to avoid that trap. It helps you to continually unlearn, to relearn, and therefore be interested in what your peers or the people that end up working for you have got to say. I think it's curiosity, therefore, that helps us to avoid becoming judgmental. And again, I don't want you to think of me as judging you or vice versa. It's much more interesting to ask questions like why and how and what could we and how could we. So it's my experience that curiosity also seems to have this impact where the people that are curious form deeper friendships, more meaningful friendships, and certainly larger friendship groups that they're able to go and associate with. And in this world where it is exponential, whether you're interested in science or social science, there can be no excuses For there being a limit to what you can be curious about, because there is still so much to discover, and as humans we're creating so many new constructs that they've also got to be understood, discovered, and rediscovered too. So good luck, congratulations on making it to this pinnacle in your lives. Wherever you go next, whatever you decide to do, I hope that from time to time you remind yourself to try to rediscover how to become curious. ### Quotes > "And if you can use microbials to help, say, lettuce sit on the side of your kitchen for three or four months without needing a fridge, goodbye fridge." >, Colin Iles, guest · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=159) > "you're living in a world where you aren't simply experiencing one Gutenberg moment, you're experiencing multiple ones." >, Colin Iles, guest · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=177) > "It's moving so quickly, I lose my sense of relevance. I just feel old. I lose my sense of self." >, Colin Iles, guest · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=452) > "While science might show us how things work, it's the humanities that show us how we work within that world." >, Colin Iles, guest · [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461) > "we will be the ones that design the rules." >, Colin Iles, guest · [08:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=484) > "So whilst the world will change in many ways, I don't think we will." >, Colin Iles, guest · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=503) > "I want you to try to be as curious as you can for as long as you can." >, Colin Iles, guest · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=532) > "I think curiosity is what helps us to avoid, hubris. It's horrible." >, Colin Iles, guest · [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=572) > "It's much more interesting to ask questions like why and how and what could we and how could we." >, Colin Iles, guest · [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=608) ### Claims > "I'm Gershom Aitchison, I'm headmaster and co-founder of Education Incorporated. At Edu Inc, the valediction is a very, very important rite of passage," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Valediction rite of passage · [00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=4) > "one of the key elements is that the students get to share their journey and their thoughts on their journey with their peers and with their parents. It's a time for them to acknowledge the people that have helped them along the path, the people who've supported them," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Valediction rite of passage · [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=13) > "I met Colin in a podcast that didn't become a podcast when we ended up agreeing on too much, and he wanted a boxing match," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Valediction rite of passage · [00:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=45) > "There was a likeness in thinking on what education should look like and the future that these kids are going to be walking into." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Valediction rite of passage · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=58) > "You could be the generation that sees average lifespans increase into the hundreds of years." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=98) > "I'm talking about companies that are raising billions of dollars who are literally, quite literally trying to reverse aging." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=113) > "Telepathy is already tried and tested, converting brainwaves into text, we read it or go and retranslate it back into brainwaves. This has been done. But can it be done at scale?" >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=127) > "will you be the generation that sees the fridge go the way of the fax, as we find new ways to go and preserve food using microbials and genetic engineering?" >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=142) > "And you may be the generation that sees the cost of energy, data, and even transportation move to zero, at least for basic services." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Automation and free services · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=169) > "the Gutenberg moment, if you don't know, was when the printing press was invented and released, and you think about how that transformed the world as effectively access to information was democratized." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=185) > "these technologies we're going to go through in a minute, they're augmenting, meaning the benefit of one revolutionary change is assisting in catalyzing yet another, yet another, and yet another." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=200) > "Companies like Starlink are trying to do that as they place satellites to go and give access to every corner of the globe." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=222) > "We've seen batteries reducing in price, improving in capacity every single year for the last sets of decades. In 2018, we saw an improvement of 60%, as China basically came on stream." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=271) > "Maybe in the next couple of years, they'll even pass the Turing test, where outputs from computers become indistinguishable from what we as humans would have produced." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=299) > "are we getting good at translating the sun's energy into solar, because again, that's been reducing in cost every single year, year in, year out for the last 30 or 40 years at a 10, 15, 20% rate." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=326) > "The natural conclusion is we could live in a world where, in this case, transport becomes free." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Automation and free services · [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=349) > "We're not having to pay individuals for their labor and productivity anymore, we're automating that process." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Automation and free services · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=376) > "as we convert sunlight into automated productivity, we start to go and challenge the concept of money because it becomes outdated. Why do we need it if we've automated so much?" >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Automation and free services · [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=388) > "Anyway, how likely is all of this to happen? I've actually got no idea. I don't think anyone does, and I think perhaps some of you have got better ideas than anything I could come up with." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Exponential technology futures · [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=406) > "Humans certainly have the possibility of making everything I've just suggested occur, and we equally have the possibility of destroying everything that's been created to date, including our own planet." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=415) > "the reality is I think our lives are going to be more determined by our own philosophies." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=432) > "sometimes I get incredibly depressed about the impact of technology. I feel it's going to impinge on my life in a way where I no longer know what role to play. It's moving so quickly, I lose my sense of relevance." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=443) > "While science might show us how things work, it's the humanities that show us how we work within that world. And this is critical, because I can't imagine a world where we outsource decisions about how we should operate as a species to machines." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=461) > "So we're always going to still have lawyers to set rules as to who's at fault when an automated accident occurs. We might use machines to make the determination at a later point, but we will be the ones that design the rules." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=475) > "So whilst the world will change in many ways, I don't think we will. Humans are going to remain as fallible as we've been for tens of thousands of years." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Humanities in a tech world · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=503) > "But I want you to try to be as curious as you can for as long as you can. Because being curious, I think, opens up a world of possibilities." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=532) > "sometimes you're going to fail and you're going to fall over and things aren't going to make sense, you're even going to make yourselves look relatively stupid. But just like riding a bicycle, by being curious and trying these new things, you grow, you learn, you get better, you go and advance yourselves." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=557) > "I think curiosity helps you to avoid that trap. It helps you to continually unlearn, to relearn, and therefore be interested in what your peers or the people that end up working for you have got to say." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=587) > "I think it's curiosity, therefore, that helps us to avoid becoming judgmental. And again, I don't want you to think of me as judging you or vice versa." >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=599) > "So it's my experience that curiosity also seems to have this impact where the people that are curious form deeper friendships, more meaningful friendships, and certainly larger friendship groups" >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [10:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=615) > "And in this world where it is exponential, whether you're interested in science or social science, there can be no excuses For there being a limit to what you can be curious about, because there is still so much to discover," >, Colin Iles, guest · topic: Curiosity as life strategy · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1247572_high.mp3#t=629) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) "We had the privilege this year of having Colin Iles's talk at our Valediction. And share his thoughts on what the future might look like for our future alumni. At Edu Inc, the Valediction is a very, very important rite of passage. And one of the key elements is that the students get to share their journey and their thoughts on their journey with their peers and with their parents. It's a time for them to acknowledge the people that have helped them along the path, the people who have supported them, and to kind of prepare what the future generations in the school might have to experience and the things that they might have to overcome. I met Colin in a podcast that didn't become a podcast when we ended up agreeing on too much. And he wanted a boxing match. But what it did highlight for us is that there was a likeness and thinking on what education should look like, and the future that these kids are going to be walking into. And I think that the message he gave them was very pertinent. I certainly had to listen to it more than once to take it all out. And I would like to share this message with our community so that everybody understands what the future might hold for them." - Gershom Aitchison - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gershom-aitchison-1b074b234/ Visit our website http://educationincorporated.co.za YouTube Video · Gershom Aitchison · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Mandarin comes to Edu Inc - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-10-20-mandarin-comes-to-edu-inc/ - Date: 2022-10-20 (as at 2022-10-20) - Guest: Jenny Liao - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Language and culture, HSK certification, HSK versus academic exams, Lesson format and cost - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1241575 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jenny Liao - founder · Hello Panda - Came to South Africa in 1992 and volunteered teaching at Chinese schools; did a teaching course at the University of Beijing, Culture and Language University; ran two weeks of Mandarin, plus Spanish and Arabic, at Edu Inc. In their own words: > "I come to South Africa in 1992, and I have been volunteer to, teach at the Chinese schools. So it's always been a passion of mine to teach." [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=38) > "Over the year, I got, more and more requests from local children's parents to teach their little one this beautiful language. So I went to do a teaching course at the University of Beijing, Culture and Language University." [00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=50) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) **Key ideas** - Jenny argues language teaching should aim to build interest rather than perfection, by incorporating culture, food and sport. ([03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=183) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=235) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=235)) - Gershom holds that language learning happens within a culture and is about communicating, not getting it perfect. ([03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=186) [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=186) [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=260)) - Jenny plans to align lessons with the HSK, the Chinese standard test with six levels and an internationally recognised certificate. ([05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=307) [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=356) [06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=375) [06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=389)) - Jenny sees HSK as lifestyle learning that continues after school, while Cambridge A/O-levels suit learners with a home-language background. ([10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=645) [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=664) [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=680) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=732)) - Gershom says the Edu Inc offering will likely start as an extramural open to students, teachers and parents. ([05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=317)) **Lessons** - According to Jenny, HSK certificates can be added to a CV and employers needing Chinese skills will ask for HSK. ([06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=389) [12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=768) [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=771)) - Jenny says learners who study further can sit a higher HSK level directly without rewriting lower levels. ([07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=452)) - Jenny's students continue learning by watching Chinese cartoons and series after building the basics. ([11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=680) [11:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=699)) **Facts stated in the episode** - Jenny Liao came to South Africa in 1992. ([00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=38)) - Jenny says the HSK was established in 1984 and has six levels. ([06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=375) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=410)) - Jenny says HSK exams in the Johannesburg area run about once every three months. ([06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=410)) - Proposed cost is about 750 rand per month for one weekly lesson. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=490)) - Jenny cites seventy countries officially teaching Chinese in their national education systems. ([09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=588) [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=590)) - Jenny says Chinese became one of six official UN languages for World Tourism in January 2021. ([10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=612)) - Jenny recalls 42 of her class of 46 went abroad to learn English. ([09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=553)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Where can I write the HSK in Johannesburg and how often?** A: Jenny says the University of Johannesburg has a testing centre, with a few others in the area, and exams run about once every three months. ([06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=410)) **Q: Do I have to pass HSK level one before writing a higher level?** A: No. Jenny says if you know your level is HSK four, you can just write that test, and you can certify anywhere in the world. ([05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=307) [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=452)) ### Passage: Jenny Liao's path to teaching Mandarin at Edu Inc [00:32-03:03, 411 words] Note (AI): Covers the guest's background and her account of the two-week Global Languages programme at Edu Inc, including why she chose the school. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=32): > Jenny, tell me how this passion for Mandarin started and where your journey with Mandarin started. Jenny Liao, guest [00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=37): > Right. I come to South Africa in 1992, and I have been volunteer to, teach at the Chinese schools. So it's always been a passion of mine to teach. Over the year, I got, more and more requests from local children's parents to teach their little one this beautiful language. So I went to do a teaching course at the University of Beijing, Culture and Language University. So it's just evolved from there. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=73): > So I should be starting the podcast by saying 你 好 吗 ? Jenny Liao, guest [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=77): > 我 很 好 , 谢 谢 。 Gershom Aitchison, host [01:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=79): > So that's a little bit of Mandarin, and I probably butchered the pronunciation of it, but I think that it's one of the, the fastest growing languages in the world and one of the most widely spoken languages. I just want to rewind a little bit and talk a little bit about how you got involved with Edu Inc. it started last term. if you wouldn't mind just talking a little bit about the Global Languages program that you offered at the school and the success of it from an outsider. We know from the inside that it was very successful from, you know, feedback from our students and, our parents. But how did you experience it from the outside, and what kind of value did you, did you see in that space? Jenny Liao, guest [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=114): > So for me, Edu Inc come across as being a very unique age school, very, tech-driven, and always open to big and new ideas. So for us to try to roll out, language in the educational, facility, we thought about Edu Inc. That is actually the first school that come to mind. It's very small, and the principal and the vice principals are always, have their hands on deck, and it's very IT-driven. So regardless of on-site teaching or online teaching, we know it's not going to be disrupted. So we had a meeting, with Gershon, and then the things just start from there. So we actually had two week of Mandarin, and we also facilitate Spanish and also Arabic, and then the response has been great. The children had a lot of fun learning the language, the culture, and we also make some cultural food. So from that, I already had a great two week with the students, and I'm looking forward to have a proper, lesson next year with them. ### Passage: Why culture belongs in language teaching [03:03-05:04, 354 words] Note (AI): Sets out the guest's teaching principle of building interest through culture, food and sport rather than perfection, and the host's view on communication. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=183): > You touched on something that's quite important, I think, for people to understand that learning a language doesn't happen in isolation. It happens within the context of a culture. Essentially, language represents the culture and the ideas of people. When teaching Mandarin, how do you incorporate the culture of the Chinese people or the Taiwanese people into the Mandarin classes? And we don't call it Chinese. Can you also perhaps just tell us why we don't call it? We speak in Chinese, we speak in Mandarin, just to create some context for that as well. Jenny Liao, guest [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=212): > So some people know just Chinese, some people also say I can speak Mandarin, some people say I speak Chinese Mandarin, so regardless people know that, what you're talking about. So it doesn't really matter, people will understand when you talk about Chinese or Mandarin, it's the same language. Yes. And culture is a big aspect of language because my principle to teach a language is not for children to have hundred percent, is to have the interest in the language, and by doing that, you have to incorporate the culture, the fun part of it, and that really stick with the children once they grasp the beauty of the language through culture, through the food, through the sports, yeah. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=260): > I think also there's often a, a conception that language is about getting it perfect, and I think we tend to forget that the focus on language is actually about communicating with each other. And in my experience, people who speak Mandarin, especially Chinese people and Taiwanese people, are very open to the fact that you're trying to speak, even if you're butchering it. It's quite a difficult language to speak with the different tones and things like that, but they, I think most people appreciate you attempting to communicate with them on their level. Is that your experience too? Jenny Liao, guest [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=289): > Yes. I love the quotes by, Nelson Mandela. He says that when you speak a language that he understands, it goes to their head. However, if you speak a language that is their language, you speak into their hearts. ### Passage: The 2023 plan and how HSK certification works [05:07-08:01, 492 words] Note (AI): Explains the planned extramural offering and the HSK structure: six levels, exam centres, frequency, and skipping levels. Practical detail for parents considering enrolment. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=307): > So what are the plans for 2022, 2023 at Edu Inc? I know that we've spoken about introducing it, to the school. It's something that we're really looking forward to doing. We're probably going to start as an extramural, but it's not going to be open just to students, it's going to be open to teachers and parents, so our community as a whole. It's a fun language to learn, and it's a language that does open opportunities, especially if you're traveling in the East. Talk to me a little bit about what your offering is and the HSK certificate certification and things like that, please. Jenny Liao, guest [05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=338): > Thanks, Gershon. I think that, is very kind of you to, open up your facility and then offer the language not for just your school students, but to teachers and also the community. So the plan hasn't set hundred percent. However, I do vision that, we're going to offer our lessons in line with the HSK. So what is HSK is Hanyu Shui Ping Kaoshi. So it's actually the Chinese standard test structure. It's very, very, practical. So for example, HSK actually have six levels, level one to level six. And then level one, you'll learn about hundred to two hundred words, that is, you will be using your daily lives. And then by doing that, you will also be able to write the HSK, exams, and that is, international standardized exams, and you will receive your certificate that you can attach to your CV or use it later in life. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=405): > And what is the cost for doing the assessment, for example, and where does that happen? Jenny Liao, guest [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=410): > So HSK is actually being, established in 1984. So they're very established, and then every year they run their exams, through different, facilities. So in Gerberg, I know the University of Johannesburg have a testing center, and then there are few, around the area, and then the exam runs about once every three months. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=434): > Right, so when you're ready, you can register for the exam and go and write the certificate. Jenny Liao, guest [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=437): > Correct, correct. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=438): > And how long is that certificate valid for once you have it? Do you have it, or does it kind of expire, or...? Jenny Liao, guest [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=444): > from my knowledge, they do expire. However, so for example, right now we do HSK one, and then later on in life, you don't have to write HSK one again. So if you do carry on study, and then you know that your level's at HSK four, so you can actually just write that test. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=465): > So you don't have to, have qualified for the next level of the test. Jenny Liao, guest [07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=468): > No, you don't. So Gershom Aitchison, host [07:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=469): > if you've been overseas for four years and you've picked up the language and you learn it, you can come back and certify yourself at level four or five if you feel that that's the competency level that you're at. Jenny Liao, guest [07:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=478): > Yes, that's correct, and you can certify anywhere in the world. ### Passage: Mandarin's rising global status [08:59-10:24, 192 words] Note (AI): Gives the guest's case for learning Mandarin now, with her own schooling story and stated figures on national curricula and UN status. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=539): > Jenny, what's the status of Mandarin globally at the moment? Why is it at the forefront of most people's minds? Jenny Liao, guest [09:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=549): > I do believe that we are in the new generation now, in new era. So when I was little, it's all about learning English. So I remember that we are a class of 46, and 42 of us went oversee abroad, so we know how to speak English properly in the English environment. So right now we can see that Chinese economy is globally just, it is huge, and to learn a language that, will be the most spoken language in the world is very, very powerful. So that says that, the stats shows that seventy countries actually officially, incorporate Chinese language teaching in their national education system. So that shows that the importance of the language. Gershom Aitchison, host [10:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=602): > And you also mentioned before we started the podcast that the UN has also, it's one of the six languages that they've adopted, if that's not, if that's correct? Jenny Liao, guest [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=611): > Yes, yes. So Chinese actually being, officially categorized as one of the six official language of the United Nation for the World Tourism in January 2021. ### Passage: HSK compared with Cambridge and IEB Mandarin [10:45-12:59, 340 words] Note (AI): Distinguishes lifestyle HSK learning from academic A-level, O-level and matric options, with advice on who should pursue which. Gershom Aitchison, host [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=645): > I also know that the IAB offers Mandarin as, or Chinese as one of its, metric subjects and offerings, and that you can do Mandarin at an O-level and an A-level through Cambridge. How does that align with the HSK and your, your vision for, for Mandarin? Jenny Liao, guest [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=662): > So how I see it is the Cambridge A-level, O-level is geared towards children that do speak the language at home, however they do move abroad, or for the children that have been, living in China and have some language, Chinese language background. So where we focus on as the HSK is more of a lifestyle learning, so it just don't stop after metric. So we actually teach you the basic, then from that, you will be able to carry on learning at your own pace, at your own time, at your own medium. For example, we have few students being with us for few years, and what they're doing now is they will watch the Chinese cartoon, or they will watch Chinese series, and then from that, they can continuous learning. So for me, that is more enrich in the language in your life to do that going forward, compared to the Cambridge A-level, O-level, Gershom Aitchison, host [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=727): > that's... Or the IB metric. Yes, Jenny Liao, guest [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=728): > or, or the IB metric. For me... I don't encourage parents or students to gear for that unless you have a very solid background of the language. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=741): > So it sounds like the A-levels, O-levels, the metric IEB language is predominantly for Mandarin home language speakers. It's also got a very strong academic purpose behind it, whereas what you're offering with the HSK is more about access to the culture, access to the media, access to people. It's more about being part of that community and part of that culture rather than having an academic motive behind it. Is that correct? Jenny Liao, guest [12:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=766): > Yes, that's correct. And also, going forward, if you do apply for a job, if they do need, the person that to have some Chinese skill, they will ask for HSK. ### Quotes > "Edu Inc come across as being a very unique age school, very, tech-driven, and always open to big and new ideas." >, Jenny Liao, guest · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=115) > "learning a language doesn't happen in isolation. It happens within the context of a culture." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=186) > "my principle to teach a language is not for children to have hundred percent, is to have the interest in the language," >, Jenny Liao, guest · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=235) > "if you speak a language that is their language, you speak into their hearts." >, Jenny Liao, guest · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=299) > "to learn a language that, will be the most spoken language in the world is very, very powerful." >, Jenny Liao, guest · [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=580) > "seventy countries actually officially, incorporate Chinese language teaching in their national education system." >, Jenny Liao, guest · [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=590) > "if they do need, the person that to have some Chinese skill, they will ask for HSK." >, Jenny Liao, guest · [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=771) > "learning Mandarin is important because one needs to know how to order your dumplings exactly the way that you want them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [13:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=786) ### Claims > "I come to South Africa in 1992, and I have been volunteer to, teach at the Chinese schools. So it's always been a passion of mine to teach." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=38) > "Over the year, I got, more and more requests from local children's parents to teach their little one this beautiful language. So I went to do a teaching course at the University of Beijing, Culture and Language University." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=50) > "I think that it's one of the, the fastest growing languages in the world and one of the most widely spoken languages." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=84) > "Edu Inc come across as being a very unique age school, very, tech-driven, and always open to big and new ideas." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Mandarin at Edu Inc · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=115) > "So we actually had two week of Mandarin, and we also facilitate Spanish and also Arabic, and then the response has been great. The children had a lot of fun learning the language, the culture, and we also make some cultural food." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Mandarin at Edu Inc · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=157) > "learning a language doesn't happen in isolation. It happens within the context of a culture. Essentially, language represents the culture and the ideas of people." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language and culture · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=186) > "people will understand when you talk about Chinese or Mandarin, it's the same language." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Language and culture · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=226) > "my principle to teach a language is not for children to have hundred percent, is to have the interest in the language, and by doing that, you have to incorporate the culture, the fun part of it, and that really stick with the children once they grasp the beauty of the language through culture, through the food, through the sports, yeah." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Language and culture · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=235) > "I think also there's often a, a conception that language is about getting it perfect, and I think we tend to forget that the focus on language is actually about communicating with each other." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language and culture · [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=260) > "in my experience, people who speak Mandarin, especially Chinese people and Taiwanese people, are very open to the fact that you're trying to speak, even if you're butchering it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language and culture · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=270) > "He says that when you speak a language that he understands, it goes to their head. However, if you speak a language that is their language, you speak into their hearts." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Language and culture · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=293) > "We're probably going to start as an extramural, but it's not going to be open just to students, it's going to be open to teachers and parents, so our community as a whole." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Mandarin at Edu Inc · [05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=317) > "we're going to offer our lessons in line with the HSK. So what is HSK is Hanyu Shui Ping Kaoshi. So it's actually the Chinese standard test structure." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=356) > "HSK actually have six levels, level one to level six. And then level one, you'll learn about hundred to two hundred words, that is, you will be using your daily lives." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=375) > "you will also be able to write the HSK, exams, and that is, international standardized exams, and you will receive your certificate that you can attach to your CV or use it later in life." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=389) > "So HSK is actually being, established in 1984. So they're very established, and then every year they run their exams, through different, facilities. So in Gerberg, I know the University of Johannesburg have a testing center, and then there are few, around the area, and then the exam runs about once every three months." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=410) > "later on in life, you don't have to write HSK one again. So if you do carry on study, and then you know that your level's at HSK four, so you can actually just write that test." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=452) > "So, from my end, we'll look at about, seven hundred and fifty rand per month. Okay. So that include, one lesson a week with homework and also daily conversation through WhatsApps." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Lesson format and cost · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=490) > "We will have a one-hour lesson a week, and in that week we will do revision, and we will also cover new work, and also homework will be given, and but what's very important is, we normally have a WhatsApp group, so whatever we learn in that week, we practice every day on the WhatsApp group." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Lesson format and cost · [08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=517) > "So when I was little, it's all about learning English. So I remember that we are a class of 46, and 42 of us went oversee abroad, so we know how to speak English properly in the English environment." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=553) > "So right now we can see that Chinese economy is globally just, it is huge, and to learn a language that, will be the most spoken language in the world is very, very powerful." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=573) > "the stats shows that seventy countries actually officially, incorporate Chinese language teaching in their national education system. So that shows that the importance of the language." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=588) > "So Chinese actually being, officially categorized as one of the six official language of the United Nation for the World Tourism in January 2021." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=612) > "the tourism industries, the The FET colleges, people who are actually on the ground dealing with tourists, dealing with people on their day-to-day lives, have a need to be able to speak Mandarin" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global importance of Mandarin · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=627) > "the Cambridge A-level, O-level is geared towards children that do speak the language at home, however they do move abroad, or for the children that have been, living in China and have some language, Chinese language background." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK versus academic exams · [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=664) > "So where we focus on as the HSK is more of a lifestyle learning, so it just don't stop after metric. So we actually teach you the basic, then from that, you will be able to carry on learning at your own pace, at your own time, at your own medium." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK versus academic exams · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=680) > "For example, we have few students being with us for few years, and what they're doing now is they will watch the Chinese cartoon, or they will watch Chinese series, and then from that, they can continuous learning." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK versus academic exams · [11:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=699) > "I don't encourage parents or students to gear for that unless you have a very solid background of the language." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK versus academic exams · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=732) > "what you're offering with the HSK is more about access to the culture, access to the media, access to people. It's more about being part of that community and part of that culture rather than having an academic motive behind it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: HSK versus academic exams · [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=752) > "going forward, if you do apply for a job, if they do need, the person that to have some Chinese skill, they will ask for HSK." >, Jenny Liao, guest · topic: HSK certification · [12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1241575_high.mp3#t=768) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Edu Inc, and Jenny Liao, founder of Hello Panda, talk about Mandarin in schools, its global importance and the plan for bringing it to Edu Inc in 2023. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Our Headmaster joins SA People for a conversation - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-09-16-our-headmaster-joins-sa-people-for/ - Date: 2022-09-16 (as at 2022-09-16) - Guest: Gershom Aitchison - Host: Melanie Walker - Themes: Small-school relationships and learning, Hybrid and online schooling, Service, grace and public figures, Individual sport and achievement, Experiential learning, Youth, influencers and respect, South Africans abroad - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1228872 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Gershom Aitchison - co-founder and headmaster · Education Incorporated - Teaches life orientation to grades eleven and twelve. Has taught maths, Afrikaans, English and business studies. Spent four years in Taiwan with his wife Jax, where he was academic head at a school. In their own words: > "So officially, I teach life orientation to the grade eleven and twelves, and it's just a way of me keeping my hand in the game and keeping unruly teenagers under thumb in the last couple of years." [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=127) > "But I have taught maths, Up till grade nine, I've taught Afrikaans at metric level, English at metric level, business studies at metric level." [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=138) > "You know, I've, I've studied quite extensively, and I, and I've never set foot on a campus, a university campus, because, not because I don't want to, it started off because the opportunity wasn't there," [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=824) > "I distinctly remember the, the Chinese school owner that we were working for when, and I was the academic head at that point, and she'd come to me and get a little bit worried because when a lot of Afrikaans was being spoken in the, in the staff room, she knew something was up," [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1134) > "Look, I'm a headmaster. I'm used to having teenagers not liking me, having an opinion that's different to me," [40:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2416) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Melanie Walker of the SA People Podcast talks with Gershom Aitchison, co-founder and headmaster of Education Incorporated (Edu Inc), an independent school with small classes by design. The conversation moves through weekly South African news items, including the Queen's death, sport and Cape Town investment. Gershom uses these to talk about how his school works: relationship-based teaching, the hybrid learning it built after lockdown, pupils who compete in individual sports, and experiential learning. He also shares his views on grace and service, influencers and critical thinking, and pronouns and respect. He adds personal background: his family history, his name, and his years teaching in Taiwan. **Key ideas** - Gershom argues that significant learning happens through meaningful relationships between pupils and teachers. This makes the teacher-pupil gap less formal than in larger schools. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=173) [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=173) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=179)) - Gershom says successful hybrid learning depends on three things: technology to do the work, technology to communicate, and technological behaviours. ([11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=689) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=705) [12:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=724)) - Gershom holds that face-to-face learning offers an 'osmotic' exchange of knowledge and ideas that can get lost online. ([12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=776)) - Gershom says pupils are attracted to the school because there is no compulsory team sport, so they can focus on their own sports. ([23:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1423) [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1435)) - Gershom describes a 'hidden curriculum' of grit, patience and critical thinking, taught through gardening, practical skills and how pupils evaluate influencers. ([32:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1944) [32:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1949) [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2248)) - Gershom argues that public figures like the Queen and Mandela deserve respect for their self-sacrificing service, and that grace is called for when they die. ([07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=445) [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=480) [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=570)) - On pronouns, Gershom says he uses someone's chosen pronoun out of respect once a relationship exists. He objects to the expectation that a stranger must conform to someone's reality. ([38:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2290) [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2309) [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2336)) **Three elements of hybrid learning** ([11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=689) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=705) [12:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=724)) 1. Technology to do the work, both at school and at home. 2. In parallel, technology for communication, so pupils can hear, participate and see what is going on. 3. Technological behaviours: the discipline to work online without getting distracted. **Lessons** - Gershom's account suggests that planning early for disruption pays off: the co-founder's pre-lockdown plan, doubted at first by the board, let the school go online at once. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614) [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=633)) - Gershom notes that not every pupil suits online learning. Self-knowledge about whether you work better at home or on campus is useful for later study and work. ([12:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=724) [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=853)) - Gershom suggests that letting pupils drop compulsory team sport can free them to reach national and international level in individual pursuits. ([23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1435) [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1451) [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1478) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1504)) - Gershom advises teaching young people to evaluate influencers critically: take what is useful and leave the rest. ([36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2185) [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2248)) - Gershom treats practical tasks like gardening and changing a tyre as a way to teach patience and real-world skills. ([32:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1949) [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1993) [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2003)) **Who it's for:** Parents weighing independent schools with small classes, hybrid options or flexibility for pupils who compete in individual sports. Educators thinking about relationship-based teaching and experiential learning. South Africans at home and abroad who follow SA People's weekly news roundup. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom's family came to South Africa in 1876, landing in Durban as missionaries. ([20:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1200)) - Gershom and Jax spent four years in Taiwan, where he was academic head at a school. ([16:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1015) [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1134)) - Edu Inc alumna Kaylee Telfer was South Africa's number one female golfer, according to Gershom. ([24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1451)) - Two Edu Inc boys, in grades seven and eight, hold an SA national archery record, Gershom says. ([24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1478)) - Melanie says Mandela nicknamed the Queen Motla Lepula after her 1995 visit to South Africa. ([05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=322)) - Melanie reports R5.7 billion invested in Cape Town CBD, with eighteen new developments in 2021. ([29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1754)) - Melanie says the Springbok Sevens under Neil Powell won three World Series titles and 22 of 37 cup finals. ([27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1633)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What does Gershom Aitchison mean when he says Edu Inc is a boutique school?** A: He says it is focused on relationships and connections with the pupils. The school believes significant learning happens through meaningful teacher-pupil relationships, which makes the gap less formal than in a larger school. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=173) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=179)) **Q: How did Edu Inc handle the COVID lockdown?** A: Melanie says the school took all its pupils online the day after lockdown was announced. Gershom credits his wife Jax's plan, which the board had doubted two weeks earlier. This left the school able to offer a hybrid solution. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614) [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=633) [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=647)) **Q: What does a school need to make hybrid learning work?** A: Gershom lists three things: technology to do the work, technology to communicate, and technological behaviours. He calls the last one crucial, because some people are not geared towards working online. ([11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=689) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=705) [12:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=724)) **Q: Can pupils at Edu Inc attend school remotely from another city or country?** A: Yes. Gershom says the hybrid solution serves a grade eleven pupil living in the UK and a grade nine pupil in Durban, among others. ([10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=647)) **Q: Does Edu Inc play team sports like rugby?** A: Gershom says it could not field a rugby team. Instead it attracts pupils in individual sports, who value not having compulsory hockey, netball or rugby. Some pupils play club sports elsewhere. ([23:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1423) [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1435)) **Q: What sporting achievements have Edu Inc pupils had?** A: Gershom mentions alumna Kaylee Telfer, who was South Africa's number one female golfer and is now a pro. He also mentions two boys holding an SA national archery record, a paintball honours award, and a grade ten girl who came fourth in the world at tap dancing. ([24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1451) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1468) [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1478) [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1493) [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1504)) **Q: Does the school teach practical life skills like gardening?** A: Gershom says vegetable growing happens in fits and starts and teaches grit and patience. Pupils also learn to use tools, and grade four to six pupils learn to change a car tyre. ([32:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1944) [32:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1949) [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1993) [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2003)) **Q: What does a headmaster think about kid influencers?** A: Gershom objects to the 'Kardashian style of influencing' as toxic and false. He also says some children have better-developed EQs than their parents. He stresses teaching critical thinking so pupils can evaluate influence. ([36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2185) [36:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2202) [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2248)) **Q: What is Gershom Aitchison's view on using preferred pronouns?** A: He says he uses someone's chosen pronoun out of respect once a connection is established. He finds it challenging to be expected, as a stranger, to conform to someone else's reality on first meeting. ([38:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2290) [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2309) [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2336)) **Q: Where does the name Gershom come from?** A: Gershom says it is a biblical name: Moses' first son was called Gershom. It means stranger in a strange land. His missionary family arrived in Durban in 1876. ([20:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1200) [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1212)) ### Passage: Service, sacrifice and the Commonwealth [07:25-08:33, 218 words] Note (AI): Gershom sets out why he respects the service of the Queen and Mandela whatever their flaws, and why he objects to people casting judgment after their deaths. Gershom Aitchison, guest [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=445): > And there's a powerful allegiance with the Commonwealth. It certainly created a lot of opportunities for South Africa, I believe, post-apartheid as well. You made a comment in the beginning, unless you've been on a small island somewhere, you wouldn't know about it. The reality is she probably owns the small island, or it's part of the, of the, the Commonwealth, or it is part of the empire that she slowly dismantled. I think it is sad that people take this as an opportunity, as it did when Mandela died, to throw stones and cast judgments and say things about people who are human beings after all. Melanie Walker, host [07:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=478): > Yeah. Gershom Aitchison, guest [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=480): > I think what strikes me the most is regardless of who they were as a human being and what flaws they might have, is the incredible service they gave their countries and the people. And that service comes with sacrifice, self-sacrifice. It comes at a cost. And regardless of my personal opinion of her as a person, the same as Mandela, I have immense respect for the service and the fact that she put her country and people first, sometimes through very difficult times, and I cannot fathom The conversations and the decisions they've had to make in their lifetime to be able to give that service and render it. ### Passage: Going online the day after lockdown [10:14-11:16, 248 words] Note (AI): Shows how the school's early pandemic plan led to a hybrid offering that serves pupils who live in the UK and in Durban. Melanie Walker, host [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614): > One thing I was very impressed with your school was like literally the day after they announced the lockdown, you guys took all of your students online immediately and kept it going. Whereas so many schools in the country obviously couldn't. Gershom Aitchison, guest [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=624): > Yeah. Well, I, I think that's the advantage of being small, and I cannot take credit for that because Jax, the executive head, and my wife, and the co-founder was instrumental in that. I remember two weeks before we're sitting in a, in a board meeting talking about this and the plan, and we were all rolling our eyes, telling her that she was overreacting. But her plan, you know, worked out, and at least she had the foresight to think that this was going to happen. And it's left us in a position where we are able to offer a hybrid solution. I've got a grade eleven who lives in the UK, I've got a grade nine who's in Durban, and a few other students, you know, who have made use of this because the, the family's moved, into Africa for three months on a contract to work, and they're able to attend school digitally, presently in class, and not miss out on any of that and not have to change and disrupt their lives as it were. So that's one of the good things that have come out of it, and it's also helped us question how we, you know, engage in the learning process. ### Passage: Three things a hybrid school needs [11:29-13:08, 376 words] Note (AI): Gershom explains the three factors the school identified for hybrid learning, and what is lost when learning happens only online. Gershom Aitchison, guest [11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=689): > It's not just that, you know, we found when we did this, and, and I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm repeating myself because I keep saying this since we've been, you know, since COVID, but there's three basic things that we found in our investigation with the kids and the families and the teachers when we were looking at designing a hybrid solution. The first is obviously the technology to do the work, both at school and at, at home, and alongside that in parallel is your technology for communication, because it doesn't matter if you can work, but if you can't communicate effectively, and that is being able to hear, participate, and see what's going on, and it's all of those elements need to be engaged. But the last one is a crucial one, and that is technological behaviors. Some people are not geared towards it. They, they know that they need to be in a space separate from, you know, the place where they relax and socialize and things like that. So there are some people who are, and even in some cases, students who are very good At doing it online, because they have the technological behaviors and disciplines in place that they don't get distracted and watch YouTube, et cetera. But there's some others who are going, no, I can't, I don't want to fight that battle. I'd rather do it at school. They enjoy that interaction with the, with the teachers. They enjoy the interaction with their peers. Just walking between the campus, which is different, and it's relaxing, is a lot better for them than sitting at home. You know, the, the grade eleven, when he went off to the UK, went through six weeks of training and getting used to this, being at home, coming in, and even our grade nine, who's in Durban, whenever he gets an opportunity, he'll pop onto campus and see his friends, and when they're down there, they'll see him. It's not just about the social interaction. It's something about how we kind of feed off each other in a, in a, in an osmotic kind of way when it comes to knowledge and bouncing ideas off that sometimes gets lost online as well. ### Passage: Individual sport instead of compulsory team sport [23:43-25:10, 281 words] Note (AI): Describes how pupils focus on individual sports, and lists achievements in golf, archery, paintball and tap dancing at provincial, national and international level. Gershom Aitchison, guest [23:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1423): > no, we could not. However, there's a lot more sports out there that are not just team related. So we, we attract a lot of students who, perform very well in sports, but they're not team sports. And what attracts them particularly to Edu Inc is that they don't have the compulsory hockey or netball or rugby that they have to attend. They can actually focus on their sports. And we have very, very good representation, at provincial as well as national level for quite a lot of sports. So... Melanie Walker, host [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1450): > Like what? Gershom Aitchison, guest [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1451): > Well, one of our first elite sports kids was Kaylee Telfer, and she was South Africa's number one female golfer. this year she decided, she went, she got a full, scholarship to go overseas and study in, in, in America. she got her university degree and has gone pro this year. Melanie Walker, host [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1467): > Oh, fantastic. Gershom Aitchison, guest [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1468): > So Edu Inc, one of Edu Inc's alumni is now a pro golfer. We've had kids diving on, on the, the provincial and national stage, rock climbing on the provincial stage. Currently I've got a grade seven and a grade eight boy who hold the national record, SA national record and two golds for archery in their, their division that they shoot. I've given a child honors for paintball, representing South Africa in Belgium for paintball. No, are you serious? Melanie Walker, host [24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1492): > Paintball? Gershom Aitchison, guest [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1493): > Our honors board says paintball. Jax cringes every time she sees it, but he did it. Melanie Walker, host [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1497): > That's amazing. It Gershom Aitchison, guest [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1498): > is absolutely amazing. performing arts as well, we've got some really good dancers, and singers in the past. I think one of my grade ten girls at the moment Came fourth in the world for tap dancing last year ### Passage: Gardening, tools and the hidden curriculum [32:24-33:32, 254 words] Note (AI): Gives concrete examples of the practical learning the school builds in: vegetable growing, using hand tools and changing a car tyre. Gershom Aitchison, guest [32:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1944): > It happens in fits and starts, yes. So the interesting thing is, is The hidden curriculum here is grit and patience because carrots don't instantly grow. They have various vegetable patches at various times, and it's interesting watching them learn what grows in sun and what grows in shade and things like that. But every now and again, there's a crop of vegetables or tomatoes, you know, carrots or tomatoes or some spindly lettuce that ends up on a plate on my desk. So we've grown this, you're more than welcome to take it home and add it to your salad. it's not just the, the growing and getting the, you know, into the dirt and things like that. It's also learning to use a screwdriver and a hammer and knowing how to use that properly and what hammer is used for what. So, you know, in our technology and things like that, we make a space for the kids to do it, and the kids really love it, boys and girls getting involved and actually learning how to do that. You know, the, the LO teacher for grade four, five, and six is making sure they're all learning how to change a car tire and, you know, where to put the water. Yeah, but, Very much that experiential learning is, is very much part of it, and we're very lucky to have the flexibility as a private school to incorporate that, on women, of the students if they're interested in things like that. ### Passage: Pronouns, respect and relationships [38:10-39:14, 219 words] Note (AI): Gershom gives his reasoned position on pronouns, grounded in relationship and respect rather than expectation. The topic is live in schools. Gershom Aitchison, guest [38:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2290): > I haven't seen the story, but it's certainly conversations that, that are happening in our space as well. And the conversation that we're having is I feel, and I'm, I'm putting myself on the, you're putting me on the spot here, and at, at the risk of, you know, some bash, backlash, I think that when we choose to call somebody by a pronoun, by a different name, we do it because we do it out of respect to them. Generally, when you don't know somebody, you, what you see is what you get, and you basically call them a him or a her. until you get to know them and establish a connection, and then once you establish that connection, it's a lot easier to say, oh, right, you identify as something else, that's fine, I can, you know, I respect you and I respect the space you're in, and then we do so. The issue that I have is the expectation that as a stranger that I need to conform to your reality is a little bit of a challenge to me, and yeah, I like to live my life based on relationships and connections with people, and I'm quite happy to To honor them and respect them as, you know, how they would like to be. ### Quotes > "I have my news channel, it's called my wife and Gavin." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=68) > "We believe that significant learning happens when kids have a meaningful relationship with the people that are teaching them." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=173) > "And that service comes with sacrifice, self-sacrifice. It comes at a cost." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=488) > "Perhaps people need to be a little bit more gracious right now." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=588) > "Because there's always a South African somewhere." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [18:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1107) > "It was just nice having a little coded language that felt rather intimate and a lot like home." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [18:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1122) > "It means stranger in a strange land." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1217) > "the teenage world is a very, very strange place. I can say that for certain," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [20:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1251) > "So Edu Inc, one of Edu Inc's alumni is now a pro golfer." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1468) > "Our honors board says paintball. Jax cringes every time she sees it, but he did it." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1493) > "The hidden curriculum here is grit and patience because carrots don't instantly grow." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · [32:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1949) ### Claims > "So officially, I teach life orientation to the grade eleven and twelves, and it's just a way of me keeping my hand in the game and keeping unruly teenagers under thumb in the last couple of years." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=127) > "But I have taught maths, Up till grade nine, I've taught Afrikaans at metric level, English at metric level, business studies at metric level." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=138) > "Jax, who's my wife and the other co-founder, does the grade eight and nines, life orientation for exactly the same reason. It allows us to connect with the kids and have some face time with them." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=154) > "We believe that significant learning happens when kids have a meaningful relationship with the people that are teaching them." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=173) > "And I think the biggest adjustment that most teachers and students have to make is that while there's a great level of respect for the teachers and the position that they have, their relationship is there, which means the gap is a little less formal than what it normally is in a larger school" >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=179) > "We've got, WhatsApp groups for each class that Jax and I curate, and that's how the students are able to communicate." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Small-school relationships and learning · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=234) > "So I think The memes might express, I think that's how the youngsters do express some of the emotions and feelings these days," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=258) > "he'd nicknamed her, I've got to get this, Motla Lepula, which means comes with rain, to come with rain, because when she came out here to visit in 1995 in South Africa," >, Melanie Walker, host · topic: Service, grace and public figures · [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=322) > "And there's a powerful allegiance with the Commonwealth. It certainly created a lot of opportunities for South Africa, I believe, post-apartheid as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Service, grace and public figures · [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=445) > "I think what strikes me the most is regardless of who they were as a human being and what flaws they might have, is the incredible service they gave their countries and the people. And that service comes with sacrifice, self-sacrifice." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Service, grace and public figures · [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=480) > "I think this is the appropriate time to show a bit of grace, tolerance, and I think that grace speaks a lot about social kindness, perhaps, and I think that's perhaps what needs to be displayed now." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Service, grace and public figures · [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=570) > "One thing I was very impressed with your school was like literally the day after they announced the lockdown, you guys took all of your students online immediately and kept it going." >, Melanie Walker, host · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=614) > "I remember two weeks before we're sitting in a, in a board meeting talking about this and the plan, and we were all rolling our eyes, telling her that she was overreacting." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=633) > "And it's left us in a position where we are able to offer a hybrid solution. I've got a grade eleven who lives in the UK, I've got a grade nine who's in Durban," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=647) > "The first is obviously the technology to do the work, both at school and at, at home, and alongside that in parallel is your technology for communication," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=705) > "But the last one is a crucial one, and that is technological behaviors. Some people are not geared towards it." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [12:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=724) > "It's not just about the social interaction. It's something about how we kind of feed off each other in a, in a, in an osmotic kind of way when it comes to knowledge and bouncing ideas off that sometimes gets lost online as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=776) > "You know, I've, I've studied quite extensively, and I, and I've never set foot on a campus, a university campus, because, not because I don't want to, it started off because the opportunity wasn't there," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=824) > "You're starting to understand something about yourself, be it studying or work, that a lot of people that we as adults are only now having to figure out about ourselves." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Hybrid and online schooling · [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=853) > "When all our friends were going to London, Jax and I went to Taiwan instead for four years," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: South Africans abroad · [16:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1015) > "I distinctly remember the, the Chinese school owner that we were working for when, and I was the academic head at that point, and she'd come to me and get a little bit worried because when a lot of Afrikaans was being spoken in the, in the staff room, she knew something was up," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: South Africans abroad · [18:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1134) > "so yes, my family came to South Africa in 1876. They landed in Durban as missionaries." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Family background · [20:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1200) > "Gershom is a biblical name, and, apparently Moses' first son was called Gershom. It means stranger in a strange land." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Family background · [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1212) > "I'm, I'm not interested in what's going on in your world because it's quite terrifying. Let's focus on how to draw you out of that into the real world on occasions and have some conversations, please." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [21:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1260) > "And what attracts them particularly to Edu Inc is that they don't have the compulsory hockey or netball or rugby that they have to attend. They can actually focus on their sports." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Individual sport and achievement · [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1435) > "Well, one of our first elite sports kids was Kaylee Telfer, and she was South Africa's number one female golfer." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Individual sport and achievement · [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1451) > "Currently I've got a grade seven and a grade eight boy who hold the national record, SA national record and two golds for archery in their, their division that they shoot." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Individual sport and achievement · [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1478) > "I think one of my grade ten girls at the moment Came fourth in the world for tap dancing last year" >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Individual sport and achievement · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1504) > "City polo has made it available to people and accessible to people. You pay the same kind of fees you would pay You know, a normal riding school, you don't have to own the horses," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Individual sport and achievement · [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1554) > "They won three World Rugby Sevens Series titles, won 22 of 37 cup finals that they played." >, Melanie Walker, host · topic: Sport news · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1633) > "despite tough times with COVID, there's been five point seven billion rand invested. Eighteen new developments came on stream in 2021." >, Melanie Walker, host · topic: Cape Town investment · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1754) > "one thing I've always thought is a course that they should teach in every single school, okay, is how to grow your own food." >, Melanie Walker, host · topic: Experiential learning · [32:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1921) > "The hidden curriculum here is grit and patience because carrots don't instantly grow." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Experiential learning · [32:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1949) > "You know, the, the LO teacher for grade four, five, and six is making sure they're all learning how to change a car tire" >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Experiential learning · [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=1993) > "Very much that experiential learning is, is very much part of it, and we're very lucky to have the flexibility as a private school to incorporate that," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Experiential learning · [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2003) > "I think I have a, a major issue with, you know, the Kardashian style of influencing. I think it, there's a certain level of toxicity in there that's quite false," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2185) > "I'm in a fortunate position to see some kids who have EQs that are better developed than their parents and have a better understanding of how to manage relationships and things like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [36:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2202) > "part of the hidden curriculum in, in teaching is to teach critical thinking, and I think we need to look at it, critically evaluate it, if it influences us" >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2248) > "I think that when we choose to call somebody by a pronoun, by a different name, we do it because we do it out of respect to them." >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2309) > "The issue that I have is the expectation that as a stranger that I need to conform to your reality is a little bit of a challenge to me," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2336) > "Look, I'm a headmaster. I'm used to having teenagers not liking me, having an opinion that's different to me," >, Gershom Aitchison, guest · topic: Youth, influencers and respect · [40:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1228872_high.mp3#t=2416) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Melanie Walker invites Gersh as a guest on the SA People Podcast for a conversation about the different perceptions of news reports by people of different ages. SAPeople.com entertains, informs, inspires and connects South Africans globally. Listen to the SA People Podcast · Visit the Edu Inc website · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Global Languages initiative (and a new Edu Inc arrival) - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-06-06-global-languages-initiative-and-a-new/ - Date: 2022-06-06 (as at 2022-06-06) - Guest: Mrs van Schalkwyk - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Benefits of second languages, Language and culture immersion, Assessment and curriculum, Staff news and maternity leave - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1190696 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mrs van Schalkwyk - The language teacher, on maternity leave after the birth of her baby boy Stefan; her classes normally teach Afrikaans as a second language. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The hosts of the Edu Inc podcast (Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB) announce that the language teacher, Mrs van Schalkwyk, has had a baby boy. They explain that the maternity locum did not work out. The language teacher argues for the cognitive value of second languages. She explains the rubric-based, non-examinable assessment and confirms the curriculum is on track for term three. **Key ideas** - The language teacher argues a second language opens neural pathways that a home language does not, and that learning many languages is highly beneficial. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=85) [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=85) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=105) [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=115)) - Gershom Aitchison holds that language develops in the context of culture, so each language is taught with its culture, history, art and food. ([03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=186) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=240) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=245) [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=252)) - Gershom Aitchison hopes exposure to harder languages shows pupils that Afrikaans is not difficult, as a hidden curriculum. ([02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=120) [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=120)) **Lessons** - The hosts treat an unexpected staffing gap, a locum who did not work out, as a chance to run a planned project. ([00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=29) [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=29) [00:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=49)) - Gershom Aitchison argues that teaching a language without its culture loses nuance, meaning and value. ([04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=240) [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=245)) - The language teacher says a non-examinable language block can still be assessed by rubric on participation and engagement. ([04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=281)) - Gershom Aitchison suggests pupils already learning languages on Udemy could get guidance from this exposure and take languages further through Hello Panda. ([05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=359) [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=374)) **Who it's for:** Parents and pupils of Edu Inc who want to know what replaces Afrikaans in term two and how it is assessed. Also educators interested in short immersive language blocks and arguments for learning second languages. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mrs van Schalkwyk had a baby boy named Stefan a couple of weeks before the episode. ([00:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=14)) - Hello Panda suggested each language be taught over a two-week period. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=172)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What are the benefits of learning a second language?** A: The language teacher says it opens neural pathways a home language does not, and it is extremely beneficial to learn as many languages as possible. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=85) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=105)) **Q: Will this project put students behind in Afrikaans for term three?** A: The language teacher says she is not concerned. The curriculum is on track, and term three resumes as normal. ([05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=324)) **Q: Is the project only about speaking the languages?** A: No. Gershom Aitchison says it provides cultural context, and creative arts will explore the art, culture, cooking and food of each language. ([03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=186) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=240) [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=252)) ### Passage: Locum gap opens the Global Languages project [00:29-02:00, 259 words] Note (AI): Explains why Afrikaans is replaced this term, links the project to the host's survey, and gives the language teacher's case for second languages. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=29): > Part of the planning in Mrs. VanSkalkwijk's maternity leave was in hiring a locum. We went through our usual hiring processes, including the teacher shadowing Mrs. VanSkalkwijk at the end of the first term, but unfortunately, the locum teacher has not worked out. It's left us with a great opportunity to explore a project that we started in the first term. Most of you will remember that you completed a, a form, a survey on global languages in an African indigenous language that I did through my Harvard studies in the first term. I'm very excited that we're going to be able to explore this this term in the last six weeks. But before we dive into the details on that, I thought we might ask the language teacher, Ms. van Skalkwijk, why we learn a second language and what the value of that is. Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=74): > I'm just so excited about this opportunity and having the kids engage with some other second languages other than Afrikaans. The thing for me is learning a second language explores corners of your brain, it opens neural pathways that learning a home language does not open. I have posters in my class that shows you all the different sparks in your brain that you acquire when you learn a second language. I think that this is a wonderful opportunity for our kids to start exploring that and see everything that we've been saying, what Afrikaans does for you, we're not making it up. It is extremely beneficial to learn as many languages as possible. ### Passage: Taiwan experience and the six-week language plan [02:14-03:55, 333 words] Note (AI): Sets out the Hello Panda two-week structure, the Mandarin, IsiZulu and Arabic sequence and the reasons behind it, preceded by the Taiwan anecdote. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=134): > whenever I have this conversation with parents or students who are asking about why they have to learn Afrikaans, I can't help thinking about the experience that we had in Taiwan when we had to learn a bit of Mandarin because we were surrounded by foreign teachers from countries all over the world. And it was very apparent that teachers who had come from a country who had a second language as part of their regular curriculum definitely picked up the Mandarin a lot easier than teachers who came from countries who focused only on one language. So Mr. Aitchison, Ms. Muskalpek, what is the plan? What do we have to look forward to in the next few weeks? Gershom Aitchison, host [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=170): > When we started this project, we reached out to a company called Hello Panda, and when we were talking to them about what our victory condition was, they suggested that we do each language over a two-week period so that the students could properly immerse themselves in the culture, the history, the art of the language. It's not just about speaking the language, it's providing a context for that language. Starting the first two weeks with Mandarin. I particularly like the choice of Mandarin for two reasons. One, it's the second biggest spoken language in the world, and the second thing is that it's a pictographic language, and generally read from right to left. It's going to challenge the students and be exciting for them to learn to write some of the symbols and some of the, the numbers and some of the words. I thought that would be a very nice opportunity to, to stretch their brains a little bit. In the second two weeks, we are planning to do IsiZulu as the indigenous African language. In the final two weeks, we are planning on doing Arabic, for much the same reason as we are looking at exploring the Mandarin. And I think it's going to challenge the students and be quite exciting. ### Passage: Immersion, rubric assessment and returning in term three [03:55-05:38, 284 words] Note (AI): Answers the practical parent questions: how culture is included, how pupils are assessed, what appears on report cards, and whether the curriculum stays on track. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=235): > Your plan is for this to be fully immersive. It is a cultural experience, not just basic language. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=240): > I think that language is always developed in the context of the culture, and without the context of the culture, the language loses some of its nuance and meaning and value. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=250): > So we'll be incorporating subjects like creative arts. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=252): > Creative arts and has been incorporated into it, and in the creative arts, they're going to be exploring the art, the culture, the cooking, and the food, et cetera. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=261): > What is the implication of this project on assessment for the rest of term two? Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=266): > There's still going to be a mark on their report cards called global languages instead of Afrikaans, and they will still be assessed rubric-based because we still want our children to learn how to embrace the language. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=280): > So what would that rubric look like? Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=281): > We still encourage participation, engagement, enthusiasm, and we really want the kids to fully embrace this opportunity to become multilingual citizens. So it will be a non-examinable experience in the sense like it will work exactly like technology or creative arts. They will still be assessed on certain criteria that I've already mentioned now. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=306): > What about the impact of this project on moving forward into term three? Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=311): > I'm not concerned about it at all. I know I've mentioned this to my students, how great it is for you to just engage with a second language. So that's already a great development. As far as the curriculum go, everything is on track and we are exactly where we're supposed to go. Term three, we will resume as normal with Mrs. Van Skalkwijk, and we are on course with the curriculum. ### Quotes > "we'd like to say a very warm welcome to the newest member of our Edu Inc family." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=21) > "learning a second language explores corners of your brain, it opens neural pathways that learning a home language does not open." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=85) > "It is extremely beneficial to learn as many languages as possible." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=115) > "There's always the hidden curriculum that they realize that Afrikaans is not a difficult language to learn" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=120) > "teachers who had come from a country who had a second language as part of their regular curriculum definitely picked up the Mandarin a lot easier" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=152) > "It's not just about speaking the language, it's providing a context for that language." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=186) > "without the context of the culture, the language loses some of its nuance and meaning and value." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=245) > "we really want the kids to fully embrace this opportunity to become multilingual citizens." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=286) ### Claims > "A couple of weeks ago, Mrs. VanSkalkwijk had her little baby boy, whose name's Stefan, and we'd like to say a very warm welcome to the newest member of our Edu Inc family." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staff news and maternity leave · [00:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=14) > "Part of the planning in Mrs. VanSkalkwijk's maternity leave was in hiring a locum. We went through our usual hiring processes, including the teacher shadowing Mrs. VanSkalkwijk at the end of the first term, but unfortunately, the locum teacher has not worked out." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staff news and maternity leave · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=29) > "Most of you will remember that you completed a, a form, a survey on global languages in an African indigenous language that I did through my Harvard studies in the first term. I'm very excited that we're going to be able to explore this this term in the last six weeks." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [00:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=49) > "learning a second language explores corners of your brain, it opens neural pathways that learning a home language does not open." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · topic: Benefits of second languages · [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=85) > "I think that this is a wonderful opportunity for our kids to start exploring that and see everything that we've been saying, what Afrikaans does for you, we're not making it up. It is extremely beneficial to learn as many languages as possible." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · topic: Benefits of second languages · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=105) > "There's always the hidden curriculum that they realize that Afrikaans is not a difficult language to learn after being exposed to possibly languages like, Mandarin or Arabic or IsiZulu or something like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Benefits of second languages · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=120) > "it was very apparent that teachers who had come from a country who had a second language as part of their regular curriculum definitely picked up the Mandarin a lot easier than teachers who came from countries who focused only on one language." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Benefits of second languages · [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=150) > "we reached out to a company called Hello Panda, and when we were talking to them about what our victory condition was, they suggested that we do each language over a two-week period so that the students could properly immerse themselves in the culture, the history, the art of the language." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=172) > "I particularly like the choice of Mandarin for two reasons. One, it's the second biggest spoken language in the world, and the second thing is that it's a pictographic language, and generally read from right to left." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=193) > "It's going to challenge the students and be exciting for them to learn to write some of the symbols and some of the, the numbers and some of the words." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=207) > "In the second two weeks, we are planning to do IsiZulu as the indigenous African language. In the final two weeks, we are planning on doing Arabic, for much the same reason as we are looking at exploring the Mandarin." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [03:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=220) > "I think that language is always developed in the context of the culture, and without the context of the culture, the language loses some of its nuance and meaning and value." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language and culture immersion · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=240) > "Creative arts and has been incorporated into it, and in the creative arts, they're going to be exploring the art, the culture, the cooking, and the food, et cetera." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Language and culture immersion · [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=252) > "There's still going to be a mark on their report cards called global languages instead of Afrikaans, and they will still be assessed rubric-based because we still want our children to learn how to embrace the language." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · topic: Assessment and curriculum · [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=266) > "We still encourage participation, engagement, enthusiasm, and we really want the kids to fully embrace this opportunity to become multilingual citizens. So it will be a non-examinable experience in the sense like it will work exactly like technology or creative arts." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · topic: Assessment and curriculum · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=281) > "As far as the curriculum go, everything is on track and we are exactly where we're supposed to go. Term three, we will resume as normal with Mrs. Van Skalkwijk, and we are on course with the curriculum." >, Mrs van Schalkwyk, guest · topic: Assessment and curriculum · [05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=324) > "take something that can be considered myth into reality so that they are making more informed decisions about the languages that they are learning. A lot of our students are learning languages through Udemy and courses like that, and this hopefully will give them a little bit of guidance." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=359) > "maybe even they reach out to Hello Panda afterwards as an extramural to learn some of these languages if they want to take it further." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Global Languages initiative · [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1190696_high.mp3#t=374) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Firstly we say Congratulations!!! to Mrs van Schalkwyk on her new bundle of joy. Then we talk about the exciting Global Languages initiative for Term 2. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid’s impact on independent education: a Kodak moment? - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-03-15-covid-s-impact-on-independent-education/ - Date: 2022-03-15 (as at 2022-03-15) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Covid school response, Hybrid classrooms, Kodak moment reflection, Defensive theory in leadership, Sector collaboration, Schooling from home vs online schools, Teacher burnout - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1165545 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A recorded conference address in which Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison, executive head of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, speaks to heads of central region independent schools. She recounts how the school moved online in three days in March 2020, refined its remote teaching and built hybrid classrooms. She then uses Kodak's collapse and defensive theory to argue that the sector missed a chance to reflect on its core business and collect data during Covid. She closes with practical uses of hybrid technology and a call for partnership between schools. A short Q&A covers replicating the classroom, teacher burnout and commercial online schools. **Key ideas** - Jax argues that schools' Covid responses depended less on school size than on how leaders think about education and its future. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=124)) - Jax says a fast communication channel was vital. Edu Inc used short podcasts shared on WhatsApp, Facebook and email, because going radio silent would have blown up the effort. ([06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376) [06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=411) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=868) [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=877)) - According to Jax, three elements make online or hybrid teaching work: technology for communication, technology for work, and essential tech behaviours. ([14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=882) [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=911)) - Jax reports that the teachers' design workshop found sound, not visuals, is the main challenge in hybrid classrooms. The school solved it with ceiling-hung boom microphones. ([15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=948) [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1007) [16:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1011) [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2697)) - Jax uses Kodak's collapse after 120 years as a warning that independent education risks irrelevance if it holds on to the way it has always worked. ([27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1664) [27:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1672) [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1754) [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2052)) - Drawing on defensive theory, Jax says leaders overlook the taken for granted because examining it threatens control, winning, emotions and rationality. ([29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1786) [29:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1794) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1808)) - Jax argues that the sector did not gather data on how schools taught during Covid. It therefore has no risk assessment or roadmap for a future crisis. ([26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1643)) - Jax proposes hybrid uses beyond lockdown: learners attending from anywhere, shared teachers across schools, guest teachers, and more accessible professional development. ([35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2158) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2158) [37:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2234) [38:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2292) [38:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2320)) **Edu Inc's Covid lockdown pivot plan** ([04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=244) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=253) [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376) [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376) [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=459) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=542)) 1. Firm up the backend: sort out the admin side and set up Google Classrooms for every class. 2. Establish a very fast communication channel to all stakeholders, using podcasts. 3. Run a soft test: learners bring the devices they will use at home; the school lends laptops where needed. 4. Run a hard test: run the normal timetable with children at home and fix glitches. **Lessons** - Jax advises projecting calm confidence to staff, parents and board. A new delivery method does not mean teachers stop being the educational professionals. ([09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=596)) - Jax says teachers must be equipped before they are held to quality standards. Edu Inc supplied screens and fibre, with at least ten megs per person. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=772) [13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=796)) - Jax suggests that failures during Covid are the more useful stories, but only if leaders are brave enough to reflect on what they got wrong. ([23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1383)) - Jax argues that leaders need not be technical experts. They should champion the work, identify capable people and give them room to iterate. ([39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2353) [39:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2362) [39:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2375)) - Jax suggests schools should partner rather than compete, for example by asking the sector for help instead of offering nothing. ([34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2080) [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2107) [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2107)) **Who it's for:** Heads and leaders of independent schools weighing post-Covid hybrid teaching, anyone interested in how one school ran remote learning during lockdown, and parents comparing school-driven schooling from home with commercial online schools. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jax says she and Gershom founded the school together in 2013. ([01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=91)) - Jax says Edu Inc was running at about seventy percent paper and pen before Covid. ([05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=334)) - Jax says Edu Inc found ten megs per person was the minimum bandwidth and put fibre into teachers' homes. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=772)) - Jax says the first day of schooling from home was Wednesday the 25th. ([09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=542)) - Jax says the school was closed down again in January 2021 and could pivot within a day. ([17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1048)) - Jax says Kodak was founded in 1892 and went bankrupt in 2012, aged 120. ([27:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1672)) - Jax reports 100% pass and 100% bachelor's entrance in 2020 and 2021. ([46:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2778)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How did Edu Inc move online so quickly when lockdown was announced?** A: Jax says they had a Covid contingency plan. After the president's announcement they firmed up the backend, set up Google Classrooms over a weekend, sent a podcast to parents, ran a device soft test and then a hard test of the timetable. They were fully online in three days. ([03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=232) [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=244) [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=253) [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376) [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=459) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=542)) **Q: What is the hardest part of making a hybrid classroom work?** A: According to Jax, sound rather than visuals is the challenge, and the communication screen should sit at the back of the room. Edu Inc solved the audio feedback problem with professional ceiling-hung boom microphones. ([16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1007) [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1021) [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2697)) **Q: What does the Kodak story have to do with schools?** A: Jax argues that Kodak failed because it clung to traditional film despite knowing the world was changing. She sees the pre-Covid threat to education as a similar unwillingness to change, and says schools are still in the window to get ahead of the curve. ([27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1664) [27:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1672) [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1754) [33:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1985)) **Q: What is defensive theory in leadership?** A: Jax cites Brodbeck and McGill: it is the tendency to overlook the taken for granted, like a fish that cannot see water. Examining it feels threatening because we may lose control, may not win, may not suppress negative feelings, and may not be rational. ([29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1786) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1808)) **Q: What did independent schools get wrong during Covid, according to this talk?** A: Jax fears the sector focused on getting back to normal and forgot its core purpose. It did not gather data on how schools taught, what tech was needed or what the pandemic cost, so it has no roadmap for a future crisis. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1507) [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1643)) **Q: Can schools share teachers using hybrid classrooms?** A: Jax suggests linking classes so one teacher teaches several at once, for example two schools' grade five Zulu classes, splitting the cost. She says Edu Inc has run guest teachers online and found it productive. ([37:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2234) [38:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2292)) **Q: How did Edu Inc deal with teacher burnout?** A: Jax calls burnout a real thing but more a leadership question than a hybrid question. She shifted to a cheerleading management style and uplifted teachers, and reports 100% pass and 100% bachelor's entrance in 2020 and 2021. ([45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2735) [45:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2747) [46:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2778)) **Q: Is schooling from home the same as an online school?** A: Jax says no. She told a parent their child had done schooling from home, not online school. It is entirely school driven with the school's professionals, whereas online schools are a different dynamic. An audience head warned that some online school learners fail exams. ([43:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2637) [46:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2801) [46:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2814) [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2828)) ### Passage: Firming up the backend at a tech-orientated school [04:04-05:59, 333 words] Note (AI): Explains why a tech-orientated school still used paper and pen, and how the first step of the lockdown plan was executed over one weekend. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=244): > So how did we manage that? I'm only going to refer to part of the plan because it's, it's really the only part that was relevant and necessary at the time. And step one for us was to firm up the backend. And I'm not referring to my personal gym plan at that point. I'm referring to the admin side of what needed to happen for us to become operational online in the event of a full lockdown. And I need to just diverge for a moment here and give you a little bit of context. Edu Inc is considered quite a tech school. We are up there, we pilot tech for global companies. We've taken children to Google, we've spent time in Google offices. We are very tech orientated. However, pre-COVID and post-COVID, there are no cell phones in our classrooms. If teachers prefer to work with textbooks, they are hard copy textbooks, and that might sound quite paradoxical, being a tech school who still doesn't allow phones in class and still has textbooks, but there is a philosophy behind that, and it's because we believe that we need to teach the children that tech is a tool, it's not a crutch, which the cell phones often become. What it means is that pre-COVID, although our entire back office was G Suite, we went with the Google option, Not all the teachers were operating fully on Google Classroom because we went to a school that had iPads, laptops, et cetera, as a matter of course. We weren't using e-books as textbooks. So we were probably still running at about seventy percent paper and pen before COVID. The other reason we do that is because our matrix still write paper and pen finals. So to only be using e-books and tablets and laptops meant that throughout their school career, we're kind of teaching them how to drive a car, and then they get to finals and we're saying, right, go and fly that aeroplane. ### Passage: Podcast communication, soft test and hard test [06:16-09:24, 557 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step account of how the school communicated with parents and tested devices and timetables in the first days of lockdown. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376): > Step two was to establish a very fast communication channel. That reached all the stakeholders simultaneously and easily. We all know that newsletters and emails sit in parents' junk files, out boxes, they don't, they're not looking at that. we had played around with a little bit of podcasting before we went, before COVID, and we chose this as our communication channel for what we needed to do in COVID for the fast pivot. And the reason we did that is because we could send these podcasts via the class WhatsApp groups, Facebook, email, put onto the website, wherever it was easiest for the parent to access, they could get it. And we made it available on multiple platforms, iTunes, Spotify, CastBox, whatever they could access, that's what they used. The morning of the Monday the 23rd, Sunday night, president announced lockdown, Monday morning, teachers are now making sure the kids have what they need, in terms of how to access Google Classroom, just checking out all of that to make sure the kids are completely au fait with all of that. Gersh and I were in the studio trying to record a very calm, educational podcast to send out to our parents on what our plan was going to be, and we made sure that that went out before the end of school on the Monday. Step three was our soft test, and what we did there was, in the podcast, we said, children must bring whatever device they plan to use for the lockdown. To school on Tuesday. And that was a little messy. I mean, obviously, we had children with iPads and some children with laptops, different types of laptops. We even had a few kids lugging in, you know, desktops for the day, just because that's what they would be using during the, the lockdown. Some kids had nothing. And in that instance, we signed out school laptops, school, Chromebooks and things for those kids to have access. One of the quick actions, the very quick actions that we did take was that we'd been looking for an opportunity for some time to incorporate things like Udemy into our curriculum, not in a, as an extramural, but actually as part of our curriculum, because we wanted to expose our kids to how easy it is to access online international learning and get recognized through certification for that. So in the Monday podcast, we told the parents that softer subjects, like creative arts, for example, and a couple of others, would be removed from the curriculum and replaced with a Udemy course. So on the Tuesday during the soft test, we were also getting kids logged on to, you know, getting them access, getting them registered, getting their passwords, and they could choose whatever course they wanted. Of course, remember at this time, we were still thinking that the lockdown was three weeks long. Then was our hard test, and the hard test was Wednesday the 25th, which really ended up our first day of online schooling, or rather schooling from home. Here the idea was to run the timetable as normal with the children at home, so that any, again, any glitches or issues or whatever training we needed to be doing with the children could happen as part of our hard test. ### Passage: Three objectives and the prerequisites to deliver them [11:32-14:16, 511 words] Note (AI): Sets out the school's objectives for remote teaching and the practical conditions: staff buy-in, teacher tech, teacher skills, parent and learner communication. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [11:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=692): > For us, the, the, these objectives were very clear right from the start, and the first one was that our learners may not miss a single day or a single hour of school, and that a complete timetable must run at all times. The second one was that the quality of the teaching and the assessments and the learning experience as a whole would not suffer due to the different delivery method. And the third one was that the online experience must replicate the classroom as closely as possible at all times. Those were the three main objectives that we kept putting out to the staff. This is what we're trying to do. This is what we're trying to do. Are you replicating the classroom experience? But we also realized that to make those three objectives possible, we had to have a few things in line. And the first thing, of course, was the staff buy-in. That was a biggie. There was no point in even trying to change objectives if we didn't have the staff on board. The second thing was we needed a very clear understanding of what the teachers at home tech needs were. There's no point in expecting them to, you know, provide quality education when we haven't equipped them to do so. Then we're just setting our own staff up to fail. So we had identified real technical specifications like two screens, et cetera, et cetera, which we then supplied. We actually put fiber into all of their homes because we realized that ten megs per person was the minimum. So if there was a family of four, that family needed at least forty megs going. Otherwise, your cameras didn't work, you know, there were, there were issues. We needed a clear understanding of what our teachers' skill levels were in this space, because it's all very well and good to, for the teachers to say, oh, yeah, I've got this, I know Google Classroom. But when it comes to the crunch, and the child is sitting on the other end of their Google Classroom, it's a different story, because now the teacher's not really being a teacher, they're being an IT specialist. So what was the level of their skill? We needed a very clear communication with our parents in terms of what they needed at home for us to achieve what we were trying to achieve. And to do this, we actually established a partnership with a local computer hardware supplier to get things at discounted prices. And if you remember, in that first six months of COVID, educational suppliers were throwing things at us. When I say we put fiber in our teachers' homes, I think we paid for one or two. The rest the companies paid for. And we needed clear communication to our learners about online behaviors that we needed for this to work. Things like get your PCs and things running half an hour before school, so that if an update starts, you're not sitting during class unable to connect. ### Passage: Teacher design workshop for the hybrid classroom [15:48-17:39, 361 words] Note (AI): Shows how teachers designed hybrid rooms by prototyping, what they discovered about sound and camera placement, and how it paid off in January 2021. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=948): > And then on the very last Saturday, November 2020, we got all the teachers in, and we did a design workshop, and I was quite concerned. I thought, these teachers are beyond exhausted. They are broken tired. But here's me calling them in and asking them to be highly creative in a design workshop. But there was there was something magical that happened then because we were bringing them in to a vision that we all shared and they were so excited to be part of that vision that they all just the the A game was brought to the design training and we had a fantastic day we started by designing we said to them this is your magic wand moment here's your Lego build the the best hybrid classroom you can think of they did that we then put them into another classroom with every piece of technology we owned in the school just dumped it all in various classrooms and we said build build what does it look like for you so they just spent time building and testing and iterating and changing and testing and iterating and we made some very interesting discoveries that day like the fact that The visuals are not what make hybrid work, it's the sound, the sound is the challenge. we did a whole lot of things that day, and oh, and that other thing was the, the communication, your tech for communication needed to be at the back of the room, not at the front of the room with the teacher, so some interesting discoveries that day. But it allowed us to then come back at in January of 2021, where we had actually then built some of those classrooms, not the whole school yet, we had put a few classrooms up, and according to the spec that the teachers had helped put together, so that made them excited to try and use it for, for real. It also meant that January 2021, we could pivot within a day, be fully online running, which was just as well, if you remember, because they closed us down again in January of 2021. ### Passage: Kodak case study and defensive theory [27:44-30:25, 425 words] Note (AI): The core argument: Kodak's failure as an analogy for independent education, and the psychology of the taken for granted that holds leaders back. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1664): > So here's a story you all know about to some degree, Eastman Kodak. I'm referring to a case study that I was busy with recently. Kodak was founded in 1892 and went bankrupt in 2012. So that company was 120 years old when it died. Kodak was as good as it got in the photographic industry. Pretty much like independent education is as good as it gets globally, and we have plenty of schools over 100 years old. I'm going to read directly from the study now. Investigations into why the giant in the photography industry failed revealed that even though the company was well aware of the world and that it was changing, the company was reluctant to leave its lucrative production of photographic film. With the onset of the digital revolution in the 1990s, the photography industry was facing disruptive change. How many times did we hear that phrase during COVID, disruptive change? As the world moved to digital imaging, Kodak failed to realize the impact of that change and developed strategies that could have helped it adapt to these changes and stay ahead. Kodak's management was so bent on holding onto their traditions that they did not grasp the potential that digital technology could have had on their industry, and this inability to keep up with the changes brought about by disruptive technology led to its ultimate failure. So our pre-COVID threat to education had a lot to do with what I've just read, perhaps an inability or an unwillingness to keep up with necessary change, to remain relevant, to let go, because this is the way we've always done it. And like most human behavior, we can actually attribute this to some psychology. There is a way of thinking. That defines this and it's called defensive theory. Some of you may have come across it when you studied leadership theory. Brodbeck and McGill define defensive theory as the tendency to overlook the obvious or the they call it the taken for granted. The taken for granted are like the the fish in the water, the fish can't see the water, it's just there. And taken for granted are difficult and painful to dislodge and more so the longer they've been there. And the prospect of really taking a long hard look at the taken for granted is very threatening to us on a psychological level for four reasons. We may lose control, we may not win, we may not be able to suppress negative feelings and we may not be rational. ### Passage: Four applications of hybrid for the sector [35:58-39:12, 502 words] Note (AI): Concrete uses of hybrid technology beyond lockdown: learners abroad, shared teachers across schools, sharing best practice, and cheaper professional development. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2158): > The first one is that hybrid dissolves borders, as demonstrated by our kids out of province and out of country. Fully integrated hybrid classrooms mean that learners can attend school from wherever they are. Families can semigrate, emigrate, parents can go off on contract work, children can go with them because they still attend school with you. What we do is we still give them the option of coming onto campus when they are around and that's they're very happy to do that. It's not as complicated as you might think. It takes a very simple spec of hardware that your parent takes off to your partner shop, they fill that list like a stationery list, app reduce prices because of the partnership and it's a win win all round. The second one is that hybrid maximizes resources. We often complain that we struggle to find teachers, especially in our our African languages. We are not moving forward as quickly as we should be in that space because we can't find the teachers who are suitably qualified and of a high quality. Or that that is too expensive, or that as a school we can't afford to bring in the new subject, these are all things that I've heard repeatedly. In a hybrid space, this allows us to link classes and have one teacher delivering lessons to more than one class in real time at the same time. Why can't, hypothetically, St Peter's grade five Zulu class be linked with our grade five Zulu class? We split the cost of that, we're saving resources on that, and the teacher using the online platform, whether it's Google or whatever the agreement is, is putting the work up, marking the work, doing the assessment, doing everything else as she would as if she was teaching those kids all in the same room. Hybrid allows for best practice to be shared. Again, best practice is something we talk about a lot, and it's absolutely valuable and vital to what we do. We all have that particular teacher of that particular subject who teaches that particular concept exceptionally well. Imagine a world where we could deliver that lesson to several classes at the same time across schools. Having a guest teacher online. Again, we've actually done this, and it's not difficult, and it's very productive. And for us as leaders, the extension of that is it allows us to take our peer observation to the next level as well. And the fourth one is that hybrid just makes us better. Teachers training and professional development is easier to access for teachers because it's not localized to one specific school or organization. You get the benefit of multiple perspectives because you're not all sitting as one staff in the same staff room trying to train. Courses that teachers normally miss because of geographical constraints or time restrictions, that all goes away because the courses are now accessible and most importantly, they're being offered at a reduced cost. ### Passage: Schooling from home versus online schools [46:41-48:08, 264 words] Note (AI): Jax distinguishes school-driven schooling from home from commercial online schools and gives her view on their sustainability. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [46:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2801): > and then your last question was about the online offerings. You know, we made a distinction early on as well. I think we had one parent who came in once and she said, you know, my child's doing so well online. I think I might remove them and put them in an online school. And our response to her was, your child's never done online school. Your child's done schooling from home. That's an entirely different proposition. And that opened the conversation to explain the difference that we, this is all still being facilitated by the school. It's entirely school driven. We are still the professionals in that space, whereas in the online space, it's an entirely different dynamic. We can't, I've, I've decided personally I can't focus on, what's happening in that space because, yes, we are all losing children to that space. How sustainable that is, is another question. just this morning I was talking to the ops manager and he was talking about seeing ads for an online school and all the advertising had little children in the ads. And I think we all know how unsustainable that was. So, yeah, I'm kind, I'm, I'm kind of feeling that we're riding a wave on that one and that it might be that home school influx that we had a few years ago, we might just see a reintroduction of a whole lot of online schools, children who think, oh, this isn't quite what I thought it was. So I think we, if we can ride the wave, we'll be okay there. ### Quotes > "we need to teach the children that tech is a tool, it's not a crutch, which the cell phones often become." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=309) > "the fastest way to blow up what we were doing is to go radio silent." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=877) > "The visuals are not what make hybrid work, it's the sound, the sound is the challenge." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [16:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1011) > "the philosopher Seneca said that luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparedness." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1113) > "The taken for granted are like the the fish in the water, the fish can't see the water, it's just there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [29:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1794) > "as soon as you move into the vocabulary of absolutes, it can never work. You might as well add five exclamation points, because rational is fast receding at that point." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [32:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1928) > "Online does work. It is working. And it's not supposed to be the same." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1940) > "They were trapped in an illusion of past success." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [34:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2052) > "Maybe as a sector, I don't know, less pride, more trust. Maybe less competition and more partnership." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2107) > "We don't have to be the geek. We don't have to be the nerd that understands all of this." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [39:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2362) > "it's up to us to choose our post-COVID Kodak moment and make sure that it's not our badge hanging there, because we led our schools into irrelevance." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2430) > "It just helps all of us as, as boats to rise on the tide. There's no downside." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2559) > "your child's never done online school. Your child's done schooling from home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [46:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2816) ### Claims > "We founded the school together in 2013, and yeah, we're a boutique school, meaning that we're a small school, and everything that comes with a small school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=91) > "what I've found is that COVID and the COVID responses of schools, the different COVID responses of schools, and the teachings and learnings that have come from this, had less to do with school size and probably a lot more to do with how we, the leaders of the sector, think about education as a whole" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=124) > "the chairman afterwards said to me, you know, Jax, the plan's great, but it's never going to come to that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=197) > "board meeting on the Wednesday, Sunday night, the president announced hard lockdown was coming. And in three days, we pivoted completely and we're completely online." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=232) > "step one for us was to firm up the backend. And I'm not referring to my personal gym plan at that point. I'm referring to the admin side of what needed to happen for us to become operational online in the event of a full lockdown." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=253) > "Edu Inc is considered quite a tech school. We are up there, we pilot tech for global companies. We've taken children to Google, we've spent time in Google offices." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=273) > "we believe that we need to teach the children that tech is a tool, it's not a crutch, which the cell phones often become." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=309) > "So we were probably still running at about seventy percent paper and pen before COVID. The other reason we do that is because our matrix still write paper and pen finals." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=334) > "Step two was to establish a very fast communication channel. That reached all the stakeholders simultaneously and easily. We all know that newsletters and emails sit in parents' junk files, out boxes, they don't, they're not looking at that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=376) > "we could send these podcasts via the class WhatsApp groups, Facebook, email, put onto the website, wherever it was easiest for the parent to access, they could get it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=411) > "Step three was our soft test, and what we did there was, in the podcast, we said, children must bring whatever device they plan to use for the lockdown." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=459) > "in the Monday podcast, we told the parents that softer subjects, like creative arts, for example, and a couple of others, would be removed from the curriculum and replaced with a Udemy course." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=517) > "Then was our hard test, and the hard test was Wednesday the 25th, which really ended up our first day of online schooling, or rather schooling from home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=542) > "just because we're online or the delivery method is different, it doesn't mean we are no longer the educational professionals. So we've got this." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=596) > "the first one was that our learners may not miss a single day or a single hour of school, and that a complete timetable must run at all times. The second one was that the quality of the teaching and the assessments and the learning experience as a whole would not suffer due to the different delivery method. And the third one was that the online experience must replicate the classroom as closely as possible at all times." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=696) > "the first thing, of course, was the staff buy-in. That was a biggie. There was no point in even trying to change objectives if we didn't have the staff on board." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [12:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=740) > "We actually put fiber into all of their homes because we realized that ten megs per person was the minimum. So if there was a family of four, that family needed at least forty megs going." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=772) > "when it comes to the crunch, and the child is sitting on the other end of their Google Classroom, it's a different story, because now the teacher's not really being a teacher, they're being an IT specialist." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [13:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=796) > "Every single time we learned something new, we put out a podcast, even if it was ten minutes long, that's fine. Just to keep the parents in the loop, because we knew at that point, the fastest way to blow up what we were doing is to go radio silent." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=868) > "one of the things we did learn early on was that there are three elements that make online or hybrid work. The first one, technology for communication. So that would be your screen over here on the child's desk or the teacher's desk where they are seeing everybody in the room, they're seeing the teacher and they are actually communicating there. The second one was technology for work." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=882) > "And the third one was the essential tech behaviors that I mentioned just now. We had to have certain behaviors in place to make this work." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [15:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=911) > "And then on the very last Saturday, November 2020, we got all the teachers in, and we did a design workshop, and I was quite concerned. I thought, these teachers are beyond exhausted." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=948) > "we made some very interesting discoveries that day like the fact that The visuals are not what make hybrid work, it's the sound, the sound is the challenge." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [16:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1007) > "the communication, your tech for communication needed to be at the back of the room, not at the front of the room with the teacher," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1021) > "It also meant that January 2021, we could pivot within a day, be fully online running, which was just as well, if you remember, because they closed us down again in January of 2021." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1048) > "We have a learner in KZN who went to KZN at the beginning of COVID and has never come back, but he's online every single day he still attends Edu Inc. We have another one who's living in the UK, he left at the end of last year, and he'll come back to write matric next year." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [17:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1071) > "the philosopher Seneca said that luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparedness. And we had been looking for this opportunity to put on big fat seven league boots and take a huge leap forward in our educational space." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid school response · [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1113) > "A lot of us had been band-aiding. We had been band-aiding with robotics programs and coding programs and that sort of thing. But we hadn't really embraced the evolutionary step that we need to be making." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [19:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1169) > "learners in our schools, for all of us, are faster and more knowledgeable than we are about the very technology and their skills that their careers and their lives will need when they leave us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1187) > "Stories about Kodak moments that weren't so good, maybe those are actually the ones that are more helpful. But only if we are brave enough to really explore and reflect on what we got wrong." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1383) > "we may have forgotten that our our purpose is the high quality of children, regardless of the uncontrollable distractions, regardless of the things we can't control." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1507) > "we gathered no data that would allow us to construct a risk assessment in the event of another national global crisis. So right now, our COVID legacy does not currently include a roadmap for future generations who come after us," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1619) > "I fear that we didn't do it because we were just in such a hurry to get back to normal. How quickly could we get back on campus so we could keep doing what we've always done?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1643) > "Kodak was founded in 1892 and went bankrupt in 2012. So that company was 120 years old when it died." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [27:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1672) > "So our pre-COVID threat to education had a lot to do with what I've just read, perhaps an inability or an unwillingness to keep up with necessary change, to remain relevant, to let go, because this is the way we've always done it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1754) > "Brodbeck and McGill define defensive theory as the tendency to overlook the obvious or the they call it the taken for granted. The taken for granted are like the the fish in the water, the fish can't see the water, it's just there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Defensive theory in leadership · [29:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1786) > "the prospect of really taking a long hard look at the taken for granted is very threatening to us on a psychological level for four reasons. We may lose control, we may not win, we may not be able to suppress negative feelings and we may not be rational." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Defensive theory in leadership · [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1808) > "Online does work. It is working. And it's not supposed to be the same." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Defensive theory in leadership · [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1940) > "We still have the chance to be ahead of this curve. We are still in the window period, as long as we recognise the digital opportunity that has been presented." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Kodak moment reflection · [33:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=1985) > "what do we do when we have a whole chunk of kids who can't afford to be shuttled to school because petrol's at forty rand a litre? Do we just keep losing those kids to the UCT online school, or do we recognize that we actually do have some strategies that we figured out at this point?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2021) > "they realized that they had a small percentage of students who would not be able to afford data to manage an online offering. So instead of that school reaching out to the rest of us as a sector for help, they just didn't offer anything." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2080) > "Maybe as a sector, I don't know, less pride, more trust. Maybe less competition and more partnership." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2107) > "The first one is that hybrid dissolves borders, as demonstrated by our kids out of province and out of country. Fully integrated hybrid classrooms mean that learners can attend school from wherever they are." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2158) > "In a hybrid space, this allows us to link classes and have one teacher delivering lessons to more than one class in real time at the same time. Why can't, hypothetically, St Peter's grade five Zulu class be linked with our grade five Zulu class?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [37:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2234) > "Imagine a world where we could deliver that lesson to several classes at the same time across schools. Having a guest teacher online. Again, we've actually done this, and it's not difficult, and it's very productive." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [38:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2292) > "hybrid just makes us better. Teachers training and professional development is easier to access for teachers because it's not localized to one specific school or organization." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [38:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2320) > "So our responsibility as leaders, the way I see it, is to be a champion. We don't have to be the geek. We don't have to be the nerd that understands all of this. I certainly am not. But we do need to be able to recognize, to identify the person who can." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Defensive theory in leadership · [39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2353) > "We need to allow them the space to innovate, to be creative, to experiment in the space, understanding that a tech journey is an iterative process." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [39:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2375) > "Don't just send your tech people. He will not meet with you. You have to be there too, because you are the champion for this, and it's only you that can make sure that it's sustainable." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [40:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2459) > "speaking on behalf of our low-fee schools, I'm wondering if an opportunity shouldn't be created for our low, low-fee schools to meet with you and Gersh and take this further in terms of their possibilities." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Sector collaboration · [41:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2515) > "how do we help resource these schools so that we can create these hybrid relationships that will help them out with high-quality education at a reduced cost? It just helps all of us as, as boats to rise on the tide." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sector collaboration · [42:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2550) > "we, we went a very similar route as you did, at our school, that tried to do all of that, and I think we were very successful at it. But I think we're still picking up on teacher burnout after all of this." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Teacher burnout · [43:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2584) > "because we see those kids who come from those schools who now have to use us as an exam venue, failing dismally because they didn't get proper teaching. So by us not offering that opportunity for parents, we're actually sending kids into opportunistic spaces where they are not served." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Schooling from home vs online schools · [43:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2637) > "through the podcast studio, actually, we, we got professional equipment, microphones that hang from ceilings, you know, proper boom microphones and things that hang, and we, we solved that problem." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classrooms · [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2697) > "Teacher burnout, real thing, but that's in my mind more of a leadership question than a a hybrid classroom question because this came down to how we pivoted as leaders." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher burnout · [45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2735) > "I know I had to change my whole management style during COVID to a far more cheerleading style than I'm naturally comfortable with, but it was what was required, so it got done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher burnout · [45:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2747) > "I have to say they've been spectacular. Our last two years, 2020, 21, we got 100% pass, 100% bachelor's entrance." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher burnout · [46:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2778) > "And our response to her was, your child's never done online school. Your child's done schooling from home. That's an entirely different proposition." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home vs online schools · [46:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2814) > "this is all still being facilitated by the school. It's entirely school driven. We are still the professionals in that space, whereas in the online space, it's an entirely different dynamic." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home vs online schools · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1165545_high.mp3#t=2828) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Hybrid in a post-Covid world. Relevance, reflection & practical application In this episode Jax addresses the Heads of central region independent schools, taking them through Edu Inc’s Covid journey, asking some tough questions about missed leadership opportunities and pointing out easily sustainable and practical contributions to education in a post-Covid world. Connect with Jax · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Introversion vs Shyness | Mikateko Mathebula - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2022-01-22-introversion-vs-shyness/ - Date: 2022-01-22 (as at 2022-01-22) - Guest: Mikateko Mathebula - Themes: Introversion versus shyness, Social anxiety, Signs of introversion, Self-understanding, Personal story - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1147636 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mikateko Mathebula - Describes herself as an extreme introvert with a little bit of shyness on top; gave a TED Talk titled Shyness versus Introversion. In their own words: > "This story is the inspiration behind my TED Talk, Shyness versus Introversion, because I realized that it was important for the world to know the difference." [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=90) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short talk by Mikateko Mathebula, presented as her TED Talk, on the difference between introversion and shyness. She argues the two are often confused but are different concepts. She tells a personal story about a night out with her older sister's friends. She then offers definitions and nine pointers, drawn from a 2021 Healthline article, for telling the two apart. She closes by saying that understanding her introversion helps her play to her strengths. **Key ideas** - Mikateko argues that introversion and shyness are often confused but are completely different concepts, even though they share traits like quietness in crowds. ([00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=11) [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=18)) - She defines shyness as awkwardness or anxiety in social settings and fear of others' judgement, and introversion as choosing to be alone. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=99) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=105)) - She says that her introversion and shyness combined on one night out, and that her behaviour could have been perceived as rude. ([00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=41) [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=41) [00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=56) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=82)) - She says physical anxiety, panic when speaking and negative self-feelings point to shyness rather than introversion. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=157) [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=167) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=188)) - She says introverts recharge alone by choice, open up to few people and are good at self-reflection. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=150) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=182) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=216) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=235)) - She argues there is nothing wrong with preferring solitude, and that deep, reflective thinkers have their place in the world. ([04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=252) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=269) [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=278)) **Pointers to tell introversion from shyness** ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=99) [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=150) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=157) [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=167) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=182) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=188) [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=206) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=216) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=227) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=227) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=235)) 1. Needing time alone to recharge after socialising signals introversion. 2. Shaking hands, sweating or feeling trapped at gatherings suggests shyness more than introversion. 3. Panicking and stumbling over words when communicating suggests shyness. 4. Being happy alone by choice signals introversion. 5. Negative feelings about oneself and a belief that others judge you point to shyness. 6. Preferring texting to face-to-face talk is an introvert trait. 7. Being careful whom you open up to, often having one close person, suggests introversion. 8. Caring almost too much about others, even those who judge, is typical of shy people. 9. Strong awareness of one's emotions and good self-reflection suggest introversion. **Lessons** - Mikateko suggests that quiet behaviour among people you don't know well may be read as shyness or rudeness, even when it comes from introversion. ([00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=33) [00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=56) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=82)) - She suggests watching for anxiety symptoms such as shaking, sweating or panicking when speaking, which point to shyness rather than introversion. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=157) [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=167)) - She says that understanding your own introverted tendencies lets you play to your strengths and recognise the signs in others. ([04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=252)) - She says a person can be a mix of both introversion and shyness. ([00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=33) [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=83)) **Who it's for:** Teenagers, parents and teachers who want a simple way to tell introversion from shyness, and quiet people who feel misunderstood as stuck up or antisocial. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mikateko's pointers drew on an article written earlier in 2021 by Jeffrey Tetzel at Healthline. ([02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=133)) - Her TED Talk is titled Shyness versus Introversion. ([01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=90)) - The sister's friends she went out with were in their 20s. ([00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=41)) - She attributes the line 'quiet people have the loudest minds' to Stephen Hawking. ([04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=278)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is being an introvert the same as being shy?** A: Mikateko says no. She says they are often confused and share traits like quietness in crowds, but they are completely different concepts. ([00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=11) [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=18)) **Q: What is the difference between shyness and introversion?** A: She defines shyness as feeling awkward or anxious in social gatherings and fearing what others think, and introversion as choosing to be alone. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=99) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=105)) **Q: How can I tell if I'm shy rather than introverted?** A: She says shaking hands, sweating, feeling unable to escape, panicking when talking and negative feelings about yourself point to shyness. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=157) [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=167) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=188)) **Q: What are signs that someone is an introvert?** A: She lists needing alone time to recharge, being happy alone by choice, preferring texting, opening up to few people, and strong self-awareness and self-reflection. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=150) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=182) [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=206) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=216) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=235)) **Q: Can you be both introverted and shy?** A: Yes, by her own account. She calls herself an extreme introvert with a little shyness on top, and says the two joined forces one night. ([00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=33) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=82)) **Q: Why might a quiet person come across as rude?** A: She describes keeping her headset in and ignoring her sister's friends, and later realising her behaviour could have been perceived as rude. ([00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=56) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=82)) **Q: Is there anything wrong with preferring to be alone?** A: She argues there is nothing wrong with it and says deep, reflective thinkers have as much place in the world as anyone. ([04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=252) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=269)) ### Passage: A night out that inspired the talk [00:41-01:38, 181 words] Note (AI): Mikateko's own story shows how introversion and shyness combined in one evening could be read as rudeness, and why she chose this topic. Mikateko Mathebula, guest [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=41): > For example, once I went out with my older sister who was meeting up with a couple of friends, who mind you, were in their 20s. I'm not gonna lie, my social anxiety was kicking in really hard, and so, of course, my introverted nature got the best of me. The whole time I had my head set plugged in and just minding my own business. I didn't socialize with them and basically just ignored them. When about to separate at the end of the night, one friend commented, "You're so shy it's not even funny." I thought to myself, well, first of all, you guys are nearly double my age, so we literally have nothing in common. Second of all, I'd rather been at home Netflixing than being out here. And then I realized that my introversion and shyness had joined forces that night and that my behavior could have been perceived as rude. This story is the inspiration behind my TED Talk, Shyness versus Introversion, because I realized that it was important for the world to know the difference. ### Passage: Definitions and first seven pointers [01:39-03:46, 363 words] Note (AI): Gives her working definitions and a checklist listeners can use to ask whether they are introverted, shy, or both. Mikateko Mathebula, guest [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=99): > Shyness is the state of being awkward or anxious in social gatherings and fearing what others might think of you. Introversion is just choosing to be alone, maybe Netflixing or reading a book, sipping coffee next to that cozy fireplace. I know I sure am speaking for some introverts out there who would say that sounds like heaven. Now that I've told you one of my stories and given you short definitions of shyness and introversion, some of you may be wondering if you fall into one of these categories, or maybe like me, a bit into both. You may be asking yourself, am I really introverted or just extremely shy? With help from an article written earlier in 2021 by Jeffrey Tetzel at Healthline, I was able to come up with a few pointers on how to differentiate between introversion and shyness, and hopefully these pointers can help you answer your questions too. Pointer one, being able to boost a lot of people but needing some time alone to recharge is a sign of being an introvert. Pointer two, if you're attending a gathering and your hands start shaking, you start to sweat with anxiety or feel like you can't escape, you're probably more shy than introverted. Pointer three, unlike introverts who are able to communicate without any problems, shy people sometimes start to panic when trying to communicate, stumbling and tumbling over their words and making the anxiety even worse. Pointer four, introverts are happy and comfortable spending time by themselves, and they do so because they choose to. Pointer five, shy individuals often have negative feelings towards themselves, and this plays a huge role as to why they struggle to be socially active. These negative feelings tend to make them believe that others are judging them or painting an inaccurate picture of them. Pointer six, introverted people prefer to use their phones for texting when communicating rather than using them to talk to other people face to face. Pointer seven. Most introverts are careful about who they open up to. They would generally only have one person that they hang out with, sometimes to talk when going through rough times. ### Passage: Final pointers and embracing introversion [03:47-04:43, 170 words] Note (AI): Closes the checklist and explains how understanding her introversion helps her play to her strengths and support others. Mikateko Mathebula, guest [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=227): > Pointer eight. Shy people are often those individuals who care almost too much about others, even those who judge them for their shyness. Nine. Introverts are very aware of their emotions and feelings, which generally make them good at self-reflections. They can quickly identify when they've done wrong or hurt someone unintentionally. Hopefully these pointers can help you as much as they help me unravel the difference between being shy and being an introvert. Now that I understand my introverted tendencies, I can work more on playing to my strengths, recognizing these signs in others, and perhaps even help others to see that there's nothing wrong with us just because we prefer to be alone or watch a movie with one friend rather than go to a party. We think deeply and reflectively, so there is as much place in the world for us as there is for the experts who find all of this so much easier. Remember what Stephen Hawking taught us: quiet people have the loudest minds. ### Quotes > "I'm not stuck up, I'm not antisocial, I just appreciate your connection." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=6) > "Second of all, I'd rather been at home Netflixing than being out here." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=77) > "my introversion and shyness had joined forces that night" >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=83) > "I know I sure am speaking for some introverts out there who would say that sounds like heaven." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=113) > "there's nothing wrong with us just because we prefer to be alone or watch a movie with one friend rather than go to a party." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [04:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=262) > "We think deeply and reflectively, so there is as much place in the world for us as there is for the experts who find all of this so much easier." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=269) > "Remember what Stephen Hawking taught us: quiet people have the loudest minds." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=278) ### Claims > "Being an introvert is often confused with being shy, whereas in reality, the two are completely different concepts." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Introversion versus shyness · [00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=11) > "Although the two do share similar characteristics, such as not talking in large crowds, thinking before opening our mouths, or just having that one specific friend or that small group of friends to hang out with freely because we have no choice." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Introversion versus shyness · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=18) > "I'm an extreme introvert with a little bit of shyness on top. I've been described as both, depending on how close a relationship I have with the person." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Personal story · [00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=33) > "For example, once I went out with my older sister who was meeting up with a couple of friends, who mind you, were in their 20s. I'm not gonna lie, my social anxiety was kicking in really hard, and so, of course, my introverted nature got the best of me." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Personal story · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=41) > "The whole time I had my head set plugged in and just minding my own business. I didn't socialize with them and basically just ignored them. When about to separate at the end of the night, one friend commented, "You're so shy it's not even funny."" >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Personal story · [00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=56) > "And then I realized that my introversion and shyness had joined forces that night and that my behavior could have been perceived as rude." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Social anxiety · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=82) > "This story is the inspiration behind my TED Talk, Shyness versus Introversion, because I realized that it was important for the world to know the difference." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Introversion versus shyness · [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=90) > "Shyness is the state of being awkward or anxious in social gatherings and fearing what others might think of you." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Introversion versus shyness · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=99) > "Introversion is just choosing to be alone, maybe Netflixing or reading a book, sipping coffee next to that cozy fireplace." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Introversion versus shyness · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=105) > "With help from an article written earlier in 2021 by Jeffrey Tetzel at Healthline, I was able to come up with a few pointers on how to differentiate between introversion and shyness," >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=133) > "Pointer one, being able to boost a lot of people but needing some time alone to recharge is a sign of being an introvert." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=150) > "Pointer two, if you're attending a gathering and your hands start shaking, you start to sweat with anxiety or feel like you can't escape, you're probably more shy than introverted." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Social anxiety · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=157) > "Pointer three, unlike introverts who are able to communicate without any problems, shy people sometimes start to panic when trying to communicate, stumbling and tumbling over their words and making the anxiety even worse." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Social anxiety · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=167) > "Pointer four, introverts are happy and comfortable spending time by themselves, and they do so because they choose to." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=182) > "Pointer five, shy individuals often have negative feelings towards themselves, and this plays a huge role as to why they struggle to be socially active. These negative feelings tend to make them believe that others are judging them or painting an inaccurate picture of them." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Social anxiety · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=188) > "Pointer six, introverted people prefer to use their phones for texting when communicating rather than using them to talk to other people face to face." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=206) > "Pointer seven. Most introverts are careful about who they open up to. They would generally only have one person that they hang out with, sometimes to talk when going through rough times." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=216) > "Pointer eight. Shy people are often those individuals who care almost too much about others, even those who judge them for their shyness." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Social anxiety · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=227) > "Nine. Introverts are very aware of their emotions and feelings, which generally make them good at self-reflections. They can quickly identify when they've done wrong or hurt someone unintentionally." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Signs of introversion · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=235) > "Now that I understand my introverted tendencies, I can work more on playing to my strengths, recognizing these signs in others, and perhaps even help others to see that there's nothing wrong with us just because we prefer to be alone or watch a movie with one friend rather than go to a party." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Self-understanding · [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=252) > "We think deeply and reflectively, so there is as much place in the world for us as there is for the experts who find all of this so much easier." >, Mikateko Mathebula, guest · topic: Self-understanding · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1147636_high.mp3#t=269) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) I'm not Stuck up. I'm not anti-social. I just appreciate true connection. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Is your child's school run by Managers or Leaders? | Jax Aitchison - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-11-30-is-your-child-s-school-run/ - Date: 2021-11-30 (as at 2021-11-30) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Leadership versus management, Educational change management, Distributed leadership, Chaos theory in schools, School culture and vision, Training school leaders - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1132147 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Edu Inc Executive Head Jax Aitchison presents findings from a study module on the role of leadership in change in education. She argues that effective change in education depends on effective leadership. She also argues that school leaders often confuse leadership with management, and that most leadership research comes from the corporate sector. She cautions against applying chaos theory to schools too literally. She favours distributed leadership, with the principal curating culture and vision, and ends by calling for better training of principals. **Key ideas** - Jax argues that effective change in education is not possible without effective leadership, and that the quality of the leader determines the success of the change. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=114) [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=115)) - Jax argues that leadership and management are categorically different: managers produce order and predictability, while leaders produce the potential for dramatic change, and school leaders cause confusion by trying to do both. ([04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=253) [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=309) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=365)) - Jax notes that research on leadership specific to education is limited, so corporate leadership styles become templates for schools, and she argues that leaders must overlay their educational context. ([03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=186) [13:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=797)) - Jax cautions that the chaos theory butterfly effect implies a unilateral great-leader model, and that schools are full of emotionally invested stakeholders rather than mathematical variables. ([09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=573) [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=657) [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=678) [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=691)) - Jax favours distributed leadership, which emphasises leadership by expertise rather than by role, and cites evidence linking it to organisational improvement. ([13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=808) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=826) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=852)) - Jax argues that under distributed leadership the principal's role is to curate culture and vision so that role confusion does not spread, and that the principal is judged by the leaders left behind. ([14:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=880) [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=894) [15:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=916)) - Jax argues that many principals are not trained to improve their schools, and that they need training in leadership versus management and in complex systems. ([04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=292) [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=999) [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=1019)) **Lessons** - Jax suggests that parents judging a school should look at whether its leaders only keep order or actually lead change, since the two roles have different impacts. ([05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=309) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=365)) - According to Jax, a leader must first build a culture where staff feel confident enough to explore change. ([08:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=533)) - Jax advises that corporate leadership theory should not be copied into schools without adapting it to the educational context. ([11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=678) [13:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=797)) - Jax argues that a leader who loses sight of the whole system and its unintended consequences becomes ineffectual or a hindrance. ([16:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=980) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=993)) - Jax holds that leadership skills can be developed, which makes professional training for principals important. ([07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=468) [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=999)) **Who it's for:** Parents assessing how their child's school is led, school principals and teacher leaders, and students of educational leadership who want an overview of the literature on leadership, management, distributed leadership and chaos theory. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jax says the Wallace Foundation found that advocates of investing in leadership have had to rely more on faith than fact. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=172) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=182)) - Jax cites Nikki Giovanni: it's who controls the school you attend that matters. ([01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=63)) - Jax cites Philip Jackson comparing educational progress to a butterfly's flight rather than a bullet's. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=93)) - Jax names Salman Khan and Sir Kenneth Robinson as leaders who made inroads into educational reform. ([02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=129)) - Jax says the last eighteen months have shown how important it is to manage change well. ([01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=70)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between a school leader and a school manager?** A: Jax says management brings order and consistency by coping with complexity, organising people and running the system smoothly. Leadership creates a shared vision and uses it to drive and cope with change. ([06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=365) [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=737) [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=756)) **Q: Why do school principals struggle to bring about lasting change?** A: Jax says they often conflate leadership and management. They may have been promoted through the ranks with little leadership development, or received insufficient training. ([04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=292) [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=309) [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=999)) **Q: What leadership style works best for improving a school?** A: Jax argues for distributed leadership, which emphasises leadership by expertise rather than role. She says a substantial body of evidence links it to organisational improvement. ([03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=203) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=826) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=852)) **Q: Does chaos theory apply to how schools are run?** A: Jax explains that chaos theory shows small changes in complex systems can have big effects. She cautions that it implies a unilateral great-leader model and ignores the emotional investment of parents and teachers. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=586) [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=657) [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=691)) **Q: Can corporate leadership models be used in schools?** A: Jax says corporate styles are often used as templates because education-specific research is limited. She argues a school is not a corporate enterprise, so leaders must overlay their educational context. ([03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=186) [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=678) [13:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=797)) **Q: How should you judge a principal's success?** A: Jax suggests the main mark of a principal at the end of their tenure is how many good leaders they leave behind who can go even further. ([15:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=916) [15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=921)) **Q: Are good leaders born or made?** A: Jax reports that some studies say leadership skills can be acquired and honed, while others say essential qualities should already be part of a person's personality. She notes the debate still continues. ([07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=468)) ### Passage: Framing quotes and the essay's central argument [00:58-03:43, 458 words] Note (AI): Sets out Jax's thesis that the quality of leadership determines whether educational change succeeds, and notes how little research is specific to education. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=58): > the first quote that really struck me was one by Nikki Giovanni, and she said, it's not who you attend school with, but who controls the school you attend that matters. And that one stuck with me because it, it does emphasize the importance of the leadership in the school and the job that they have to do to manage change within that environment, and, and the last eighteen months has really shown us how important it is to be able to manage that change well. But when I started really digging into the topic and getting the research done, another quote struck me, and this one was by Philip Jackson, and he said that the path of educational progress more closely resembles the flight of a butterfly than the flight of a bullet, and I thought that was spot on because, it really does reflect some of the chaos that we deal with, or what feels like chaos that we deal with almost on a daily basis. but if I get into the, the, the writing and the readings that I've gotten into, essentially, effective change in education is just not possible without effective leadership. The quality of the leader determines the success of the change, and while those statements might be quite simplistic, they are no less true because of it. There is no doubt that accomplished educational leaders such as Salman Khan and Sir Kenneth Robinson have made inroads into revolutionizing much-needed educational reform, but these reforms appear really as hotspots of improvement in the greater tapestry of erratic and unsustained educational change that really has tended to define for many countries the past several decades. But based on the initial statement above, it's clear that successful educational renewal is really at the mercy of high-quality leadership. Research that seeks to define high-quality leadership, however, and educational leadership in particular, Quickly devolves into a quagmire of subjective interpretations, resulting in a situation where the Wallace Foundation tells us that those who have sought to make the case for greater attention and investment in leadership as a pathway for large-scale educational improvement have had to rely more on faith than fact. Consequently, research into leadership styles that best reflects the nuances of the education sector specifically is very limited compared to that of the corporate sector, which generally results in corporate leadership styles being used as templates for change management in the education sector. I argue that it is the role of the leader seeking educational renewal to have a robust understanding of the differences between educational leadership and educational management, how culture and vision play a role in change management, and how the transformational leadership style of distributed leadership is favorable when seeking educational reform. ### Passage: Why leadership and management are categorically different [04:13-06:21, 327 words] Note (AI): Explains why school leaders conflate the two roles and what each role produces, which gives parents a lens for judging their child's school. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=253): > Although the terms leadership and management are frequently used synonymously, the quantity of research conducted on the concepts over the previous two decades indicates a growing recognition amongst organizations of the importance of understanding the difference between these two concepts. School leaders in particular tend to conflate these roles because they understand that both roles involve deciding what needs to be done, creating networks of people to accomplish the agenda, and ensuring that the work actually gets done. But then they become enmeshed by the complementary nature of these roles by trying to fulfill both of them at the same time. Whether this is because school leaders frequently reach the position of leader as a result of being promoted through the educational ranks, where there is little exposure to the type of leadership development typically seen in a more corporate setting, or maybe simply due to insufficient training within the educational leadership sector, school leaders often struggle to create sustainable change because they do not recognize the sufficient distinction between management roles that cope with complexity, which bring order and predictability to a situation, and leadership, which is essentially learning to cope with rapid change. When you consider the differences between these two concepts, we see that educational leadership and educational management are not simply different configurations of a broadly similar general form of activity, but actually they are categorically different. And therefore, they have significantly different impacts on the ability of an institution to operate and manage change effectively. Fundamentally, two of the studies that I reviewed are in agreement that the two roles are very different, that management takes responsibility for the proper functioning of the institution, whereas leadership focuses more on the influencing of others for the purpose of achieving goals. Managers produce standards, consistency, predictability, and order. Leaders produce the potential for dramatic change, chaos, and possibly even failure. School leaders tend to create confusion by attempting to manage as well as lead. ### Passage: Chaos theory applied to schools, and its limits [09:33-11:57, 372 words] Note (AI): Jax describes the butterfly effect framing and argues that emotional investment by parents and teachers makes schools unlike corporations or equations. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=573): > In an effort to understand how leadership can predict, manage, and respond to changes, the previous two decades have seen the emergence of chaos theory being used as a framework to make sense of school systems. Chaos theory refers to a branch of mathematics that focuses on sensitive complex systems, where one minor change in the condition of a system can have substantial consequences. It has been adapted across a multitude of disciplines, including education, In an attempt to describe how a nonlinear complex system, such as a school, small and seemingly random changes are not so random after all, because they occur within an underlying non-random order, even though their effects can be system-wide. The new science of chaos has alerted us to the butterfly effect, to the very considerable impact that tiny fluctuations in a non-equilibrium system can have on its output. It's already generally recognized in the literature that it is the function of leadership to bring about qualitative change in the system. The theory suggests that the creative input of a single individual who is prepared to stand his or her ground can be enormously effective. However, we should be cautious of our application of the butterfly effect, and how we seek to use this as a basis to develop implications for educational leadership. It is potentially problematic because it focuses on the central idea of a unilateral leadership, which is really reminiscent of the whole great leader or trait theory style of leadership. This does not align with the more current theories that promote shared vision, team learning, and the leveraging of the potential residing in individuals. We have to remember that a school is not a corporate enterprise, nor is it a set of mathematical variables that can be clinically manipulated in an attempt to predict outcomes, as these studies sometimes attempt to do. These mathematical models fail to recognize that a school comprises stakeholders, parents and teachers, who have deep emotional investment in the operations that impact that investment or the children. Maintaining systems within a school is therefore messy, and the variable of emotional investment not found in corporate entities or mathematical equations frequently makes both daily operations and potential responses to change unpredictable. ### Passage: Distributed leadership and curating school culture [13:28-15:25, 306 words] Note (AI): Sets out the leadership style Jax favours, the role-confusion risk it creates, and how a principal's legacy is measured. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=808): > The style generally advocated for is a distributed leadership style as a basis of educational leadership that has proven to be effective in enacting sustainable change. The ability to build strong collaborative teams featured at the core of this leadership style is a consistent characteristic of high-performing school leaders, and a substantial body of empirical evidence points towards a positive relationship between leadership distribution and organizational improvement. However, the concept of educational leadership as an act of influencing others which necessitate actions that achieve goals, and that this is a delegated responsibility for a system in which others participate, introduces an interesting consideration. If we consider that distributed leadership emphasizes leadership by expertise rather than leadership by role, and that whoever influences others is doing the leading, that implies that leadership capabilities are required throughout the system for effective change to occur. If we ask who is doing the leading at any given time within a truly distributed system, where the influencer is leading and responsible for the system or mini-system within the greater system, the answer may include teacher leaders, team leaders, and potentially even student leaders. If this is the case, there is the potential for the previous challenge of the conflation of roles to abound on a large scale. Then the role of the educational leader is to curate the culture and vision of the school so as to ensure that the primary objectives of the vision are being met without the dilution of wayward individual leadership styles that are in conflict with the organizational culture or any role confusion. This way, the future forward thinking that defines distributed leadership is maintained, and the main mark of a principal at the end of his or her tenure is characterized by how many good leaders the principal leaves behind who can go even further. ### Passage: Seeing the whole system and training leaders [15:43-17:24, 276 words] Note (AI): Jax's conclusion, arguing that principals need training in leadership, management and complex systems in order to sustain reform. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=943): > The literature explores the butterfly effect as seen in chaos theory as a tidy way of attempting to make sense of modern school systems where unpredictable events and unintended consequences are frequent occurrences. The implication for the educational leader seeking reform is that a comprehensive understanding of complicated and complex systems is required, as well as where and how these can be correlated with systems theory so that in amongst the unpredictability of leading a nonlinear system such as a school, the vision and culture of improvement and change can be maintained within a stable environment that is conducive to change. A leader who is not able to retain the big picture and visualize the systematic working of the entire complex system, including how unintended consequences affect the system, is a leader who is swept up in the system itself. Such a leader is at best ineffectual and at worst a hindrance to any progress at all. Many principals do not know how to improve performance in their schools because they are simply not trained or equipped to do so, which begs the question, what professional development is required so that educational leaders are sufficiently equipped to effect reform within their institutions in the current educational climate? Ultimately, the more comprehensively educational leaders can be trained as high-quality leaders who understand the differences between school leadership and school management, the vital differences between complicated and complex systems, and how to apply these differences, the better these leaders will be equipped to lead their organizations to a place of readiness for change, to do the work of reform, and to sustain impactful progress in the education sector. ### Quotes > "it's not who you attend school with, but who controls the school you attend that matters." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=63) > "the path of educational progress more closely resembles the flight of a butterfly than the flight of a bullet," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=93) > "effective change in education is just not possible without effective leadership." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=115) > "have had to rely more on faith than fact." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=182) > "Managers produce standards, consistency, predictability, and order. Leaders produce the potential for dramatic change, chaos, and possibly even failure." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=365) > "a school is not a corporate enterprise, nor is it a set of mathematical variables that can be clinically manipulated" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=679) > "how many good leaders the principal leaves behind who can go even further." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [15:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=921) > "Such a leader is at best ineffectual and at worst a hindrance to any progress at all." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=993) ### Claims > "I've been tackling quite a big module in my studies, trying to get my teeth into it and get my head around it, and it's, the module's been on, the role of leadership in change in education," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Educational change management · [00:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=25) > "it does emphasize the importance of the leadership in the school and the job that they have to do to manage change within that environment, and, and the last eighteen months has really shown us how important it is to be able to manage that change well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Educational change management · [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=70) > "essentially, effective change in education is just not possible without effective leadership. The quality of the leader determines the success of the change, and while those statements might be quite simplistic, they are no less true because of it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Educational change management · [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=114) > "There is no doubt that accomplished educational leaders such as Salman Khan and Sir Kenneth Robinson have made inroads into revolutionizing much-needed educational reform, but these reforms appear really as hotspots of improvement in the greater tapestry of erratic and unsustained educational change" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Educational change management · [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=129) > "the Wallace Foundation tells us that those who have sought to make the case for greater attention and investment in leadership as a pathway for large-scale educational improvement have had to rely more on faith than fact." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Educational change management · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=172) > "research into leadership styles that best reflects the nuances of the education sector specifically is very limited compared to that of the corporate sector, which generally results in corporate leadership styles being used as templates for change management in the education sector." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [03:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=186) > "I argue that it is the role of the leader seeking educational renewal to have a robust understanding of the differences between educational leadership and educational management, how culture and vision play a role in change management, and how the transformational leadership style of distributed leadership is favorable when seeking educational reform." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=203) > "Whether this is because school leaders frequently reach the position of leader as a result of being promoted through the educational ranks, where there is little exposure to the type of leadership development typically seen in a more corporate setting, or maybe simply due to insufficient training within the educational leadership sector," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Training school leaders · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=292) > "school leaders often struggle to create sustainable change because they do not recognize the sufficient distinction between management roles that cope with complexity, which bring order and predictability to a situation, and leadership, which is essentially learning to cope with rapid change." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=309) > "Managers produce standards, consistency, predictability, and order. Leaders produce the potential for dramatic change, chaos, and possibly even failure. School leaders tend to create confusion by attempting to manage as well as lead." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=365) > "in educational leadership, individuals are responsible for their own leadership or influencing actions, regardless of whether they carry the responsibility for the functioning of the system in which they are influencing." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=401) > "Some studies very clearly state that leadership skills are not innate. They can be acquired and honed. However, other studies believe that specific essential leadership qualities should already be part of an executive's personality." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Training school leaders · [07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=468) > "The prospect of change can be daunting for those insufficiently prepared for it, and it is the role of the leader to first ensure the creation of a culture where employees are confident enough to explore this prospect." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School culture and vision · [08:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=533) > "Chaos theory refers to a branch of mathematics that focuses on sensitive complex systems, where one minor change in the condition of a system can have substantial consequences." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Chaos theory in schools · [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=586) > "It is potentially problematic because it focuses on the central idea of a unilateral leadership, which is really reminiscent of the whole great leader or trait theory style of leadership." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Chaos theory in schools · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=657) > "We have to remember that a school is not a corporate enterprise, nor is it a set of mathematical variables that can be clinically manipulated in an attempt to predict outcomes, as these studies sometimes attempt to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Chaos theory in schools · [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=678) > "These mathematical models fail to recognize that a school comprises stakeholders, parents and teachers, who have deep emotional investment in the operations that impact that investment or the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Chaos theory in schools · [11:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=691) > "It is generally accepted that the role of leaders include the characteristic activities of creating a shared vision within the organization, using that vision to catalyze, drive, and cope with change, living that vision in daily behavior, and building commitment to the vision through the establishment of a shared culture." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School culture and vision · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=737) > "Management, on the other hand, is characterized by their ability to bring order and consistency to the organization through coping with complexity, by organizing, aligning and motivating people, problem-solving, and ensuring the smooth operation of the system." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leadership versus management · [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=756) > "educational leaders must also be able to overlay their educational context to the leadership theory they subscribe to for the culture they are creating to be valid and credible." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School culture and vision · [13:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=797) > "a substantial body of empirical evidence points towards a positive relationship between leadership distribution and organizational improvement." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Distributed leadership · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=826) > "If we consider that distributed leadership emphasizes leadership by expertise rather than leadership by role, and that whoever influences others is doing the leading, that implies that leadership capabilities are required throughout the system for effective change to occur." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Distributed leadership · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=852) > "the answer may include teacher leaders, team leaders, and potentially even student leaders. If this is the case, there is the potential for the previous challenge of the conflation of roles to abound on a large scale." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Distributed leadership · [14:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=880) > "Then the role of the educational leader is to curate the culture and vision of the school so as to ensure that the primary objectives of the vision are being met without the dilution of wayward individual leadership styles that are in conflict with the organizational culture or any role confusion." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Distributed leadership · [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=894) > "the main mark of a principal at the end of his or her tenure is characterized by how many good leaders the principal leaves behind who can go even further." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Distributed leadership · [15:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=916) > "A leader who is not able to retain the big picture and visualize the systematic working of the entire complex system, including how unintended consequences affect the system, is a leader who is swept up in the system itself." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Chaos theory in schools · [16:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=980) > "Many principals do not know how to improve performance in their schools because they are simply not trained or equipped to do so," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Training school leaders · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=999) > "the more comprehensively educational leaders can be trained as high-quality leaders who understand the differences between school leadership and school management, the vital differences between complicated and complex systems, and how to apply these differences," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Training school leaders · [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1132147_high.mp3#t=1019) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) The role of leadership in promoting change in education. As you may well expect, this is a very important, and easy, question to ask. Answering it however, presents far more of a challenge. The good news is that, as part of her MA in Educational Leadership studies, Edu Inc Executive Head, Jax Aitchison, has applied quite some time to this very issue, and distilled some of her findings and advice into this podcast. Take a few minutes to listen in, you may well see your child's school differently. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Gender Stereotyping | Lulu Mabunda - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-09-11-gender-stereotyping/ - Date: 2021-09-11 (as at 2021-09-11) - Guest: Lulu Mabunda - Themes: Gender stereotyping in childhood, Girls' access to education, Masculinity stereotypes, Millennials and self-expression, Gender equality - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1098995 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Lulu Mabunda - South Africa - Grew up in South Africa with a sister and a brother. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short solo essay by Lulu Mabunda on gender stereotyping. She starts from a nineteenth-century nursery rhyme and her own childhood, where her mother and teachers set different expectations for girls and boys. She then argues that these stereotypes carry into adult cultural expectations: girls kept from school in poor areas, and rigid expectations of men. She describes millennials rejecting historical gender lines, credits LGBTQ+ communities with widening self-expression, and closes with her hopes for equality, citing Plato and Gloria Steinem. **Key ideas** - Lulu argues that gender stereotyping starts from birth, with pink and blue clothing, and continues through what parents and teachers say to girls and boys. ([00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=54) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=68) [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=83)) - Lulu describes a double standard in her family: her brother was cheered for having a girlfriend, while she would have heard talk of purity. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=101) [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=117) [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=120) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=126)) - Lulu says stereotypes do not end after childhood but turn into cultural expectations, including sending sons rather than daughters to school when money is short. ([02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=175) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=175) [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=187) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=204)) - Lulu argues that boys are raised to hide emotion, and uses the history of men's long hair to question the idea that real men have short hair. ([03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=237) [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250) [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=273)) - Lulu says millennials put individuality ahead of historical gender roles, and credits LGBTQ+ communities with widening self-expression. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=276) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=276) [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=288) [05:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=308) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=328)) - Lulu believes that equalising genders would keep more girls in school, reduce gender violence and make workplace pay fairer. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=353) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=377)) **Lessons** - Lulu's account suggests that everyday remarks to children, such as 'sit like a lady', can signal different expectations for girls and boys. ([00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=54) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=68)) - Lulu found that resisting stereotypes through her clothes and friendships led to name-calling, which shows the social cost of not conforming. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=142) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=159)) - In Lulu's view, girls' access to schooling in poor households is a concrete result of gender expectations. ([03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=204) [03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=224)) - Lulu uses history, such as men's hair before World War I, to show that some gender norms are recent and not fixed. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250)) **Who it's for:** Parents, teachers and students who want a young person's first-hand view of how gender stereotypes show up at home, at school and in society, and of how a younger generation sees self-expression and equality. **Facts stated in the episode** - Lulu says the nursery rhyme 'What are little boys made of?' was first published in the early 1800s. ([00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=7)) - Lulu says men commonly had long hair between the fourteenth and the nineteenth century. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250)) - Lulu says World War I led to men having short hair, for health reasons such as lice. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250)) - Lulu cites Harry Styles wearing a skirt in the December 2020 issue of Vogue. ([05:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=308)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How do gender stereotypes show up in children's everyday lives?** A: Lulu describes girls being given pink and boys blue, her mother telling the girls to tie their hair nicely and sit like a lady, and teachers telling girls to speak like a lady while boys were not told to speak like gentlemen. ([00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=54) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=68) [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=83)) **Q: Are boys and girls treated differently when it comes to dating?** A: Lulu recalls her five-year-old brother being congratulated for having a girlfriend, while she says she would have faced talk of purity, not congratulations. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=101) [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=117) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=126)) **Q: Why are some girls in South Africa still kept out of school?** A: Lulu says that in the poorest areas, when there is only enough money for one child, the boy is sent because he is expected to earn for the household. ([03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=187) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=204)) **Q: Is the problem of girls missing school unique to South Africa?** A: Lulu says it is not unique to South Africa and is all too common in many underdeveloped countries. ([03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=224)) **Q: Why do people think real men should have short hair?** A: Lulu says men had long hair between the fourteenth and nineteenth centuries, and that World War I brought short hair for soldiers for health reasons such as lice. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250)) **Q: How do millennials view gender stereotypes?** A: Lulu cites research showing millennials do not want to be defined along historical gender lines and value individuality, giving Harry Styles wearing a skirt in Vogue as an example. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=276) [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=288) [05:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=308)) **Q: What would change if gender stereotypes were broken down?** A: Lulu believes it would keep more girls in school, reduce gender violence, and create fairer workplaces without different pay scales for men and women. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=353)) **Q: What role have LGBTQ+ communities played in challenging gender norms?** A: Lulu says they have played a huge role in breaking stereotypes and have helped people define themselves through their clothes, identities and vocabulary. ([05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=328)) ### Passage: Childhood double standards at home and school [00:54-02:20, 264 words] Note (AI): Lulu's own account of the different rules she and her sister faced compared with her brother, told through specific remembered moments. Lulu Mabunda, guest [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=54): > First I observed the differences about what my mother said to my sister and I and what she said to my brother. Comments to us girls like, tie your hair up nicely, sit like a lady, or help out in the kitchen. Then I observed things my teacher might say about speaking like a lady, but I don't remember a time about boys being told to speak like a gentleman. Were people's expectations of girls different or maybe more than expectations of boys? We've all seen the newborn girls are given pink clothes and toys, and boys are given blue. So does the stereotyping stop from that young? For how long does it go on? Why has my brother always had more freedom to express himself than my sister and I? I remember the day he came home and told my parents that he had a girlfriend. He was congratulated and cheered on. Admittedly, he was five years old at the time, so it was pretty cute. That there was no way that I would have been cheered on or congratulated in my quest for a boyfriend. Regardless of my age or how cute it might have been, words such as purity would have featured in conversations, not congratulations. Why could he have a girlfriend, but I couldn't have a boyfriend? Why was that thought of me dating such a bad thing, but he was cheered on to do so? I may have not put my finger on what exactly was bothering me at the time, but I knew I wasn't okay with it. ### Passage: Stereotypes becoming cultural expectations and education gaps [02:55-04:24, 257 words] Note (AI): Connects childhood stereotyping to girls being kept out of school in poor areas and to rigid ideas of masculinity, with a historical note on hair. Lulu Mabunda, guest [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=175): > Growing up in South Africa and thinking and researching more about gender stereotypes, I soon realized that they don't go away after childhood. Instead, they divert into entire cultural expectations. It wasn't unusual to read stories about women who have not been allowed to go to school because the woman's place is to manage the household and do all the housework, and the man is to be the only earners in the household. Because of this, sons were sent to school but not daughters. The really scary revelation was when I realized that it is still happening in our most poverty-stricken areas. If there is only enough money for one child to go to school, the boy is pegged with the expectations that he will receive enough education to earn and bring money to the household, that this is his place. I have discovered that this is not a unique situation to South Africa, but is all too common in many underdeveloped countries. But even in the first world countries, gender stereotypes persists. Boys are raised to be men who are tough, strong, competitive, and never show affection of any other emotion that could be taken as a sign of weakness. A real man doesn't have long hair, and it is interesting to note that men of all stages had long hair between the fourteenth and the nineteenth century, and it was World War I that resulted in the change to men having short hair, for health reasons such as lice. Soldiers had to have short hair. ### Passage: Millennials, self-expression and a gender-equal future [04:36-06:35, 295 words] Note (AI): Lulu sets out her view of generational change, the role of LGBTQ+ communities, and the outcomes she believes equality would bring. Lulu Mabunda, guest [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=276): > Recent research into the millennial generation and their view on gender stereotyping shows that millennials do not want to be defined along the historical gender lines. Individuality is key for us to be recognized, for our individuality is more important than conforming to historical roles. For millennials, it is acceptable for women to wear feminine clothes and seen in a nurturing role as it is to wear black clothes and a Harley Quinn jacket while riding a motorbike. Millennial men are more comfortable than ever before wearing clothes that may have previously been considered feminine brands. For example, when Harry Styles wore a skirt in the December 2020s Vogue. This kind of breaking of gender roles is not unusual for millennials. Our LGBTQ plus communities have played a huge role in breaking these stereotypes and negative gender norms. They have made a massive contribution to the evolution of self-expression, acceptance, and helping people define themselves in term of their clothes, their identities, and the vocabulary they use when doing so. It is my hope that this is just the beginning of normalizing of genders. I believe that this equalizing is what will keep more girls in schools, results in less gender violence against both men and women, build fairer workplaces that do not have different pay scales for men and women, that can offer more political, economical, and social equality for men and women, and ultimately results in a world that isn't built on ignorant stereotypes. As Plato said, If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things. So hopefully in the future, as Gloria Steinum said, a gender equality society would be one where the word gender does not exist, where everyone can be themselves. ### Quotes > "words such as purity would have featured in conversations, not congratulations." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=120) > "Why could he have a girlfriend, but I couldn't have a boyfriend?" >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=126) > "I may have not put my finger on what exactly was bothering me at the time, but I knew I wasn't okay with it." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=135) > "I knew I did not want to be stereotyped." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=156) > "Do clothes and hairstyles have genders?" >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=273) > "Individuality is key for us to be recognized, for our individuality is more important than conforming to historical roles." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=288) > "If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=379) > "a gender equality society would be one where the word gender does not exist, where everyone can be themselves." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=388) ### Claims > "From a nursery rhyme first published in the early 1800s, What are little boys made of?" >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=7) > "First I observed the differences about what my mother said to my sister and I and what she said to my brother. Comments to us girls like, tie your hair up nicely, sit like a lady, or help out in the kitchen." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=54) > "Then I observed things my teacher might say about speaking like a lady, but I don't remember a time about boys being told to speak like a gentleman." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=68) > "We've all seen the newborn girls are given pink clothes and toys, and boys are given blue. So does the stereotyping stop from that young?" >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=83) > "I remember the day he came home and told my parents that he had a girlfriend. He was congratulated and cheered on. Admittedly, he was five years old at the time, so it was pretty cute." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=101) > "Regardless of my age or how cute it might have been, words such as purity would have featured in conversations, not congratulations." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=117) > "Over time, I began to change my behavior. I started on the types of clothes I wore and the colors of these clothes, and I included the people that I started to hang out with." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=142) > "So the more I did this, the more names I got called, from tomboy to daddy's girl to less innocent comments about the fact that many of my friends were boys," >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender stereotyping in childhood · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=159) > "Growing up in South Africa and thinking and researching more about gender stereotypes, I soon realized that they don't go away after childhood. Instead, they divert into entire cultural expectations." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Girls' access to education · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=175) > "It wasn't unusual to read stories about women who have not been allowed to go to school because the woman's place is to manage the household and do all the housework, and the man is to be the only earners in the household." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Girls' access to education · [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=187) > "The really scary revelation was when I realized that it is still happening in our most poverty-stricken areas. If there is only enough money for one child to go to school, the boy is pegged with the expectations that he will receive enough education to earn and bring money to the household, that this is his place." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Girls' access to education · [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=204) > "I have discovered that this is not a unique situation to South Africa, but is all too common in many underdeveloped countries." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Girls' access to education · [03:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=224) > "Boys are raised to be men who are tough, strong, competitive, and never show affection of any other emotion that could be taken as a sign of weakness." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Masculinity stereotypes · [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=237) > "men of all stages had long hair between the fourteenth and the nineteenth century, and it was World War I that resulted in the change to men having short hair, for health reasons such as lice. Soldiers had to have short hair." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Masculinity stereotypes · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=250) > "Recent research into the millennial generation and their view on gender stereotyping shows that millennials do not want to be defined along the historical gender lines." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Millennials and self-expression · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=276) > "Millennial men are more comfortable than ever before wearing clothes that may have previously been considered feminine brands. For example, when Harry Styles wore a skirt in the December 2020s Vogue." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Millennials and self-expression · [05:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=308) > "Our LGBTQ plus communities have played a huge role in breaking these stereotypes and negative gender norms. They have made a massive contribution to the evolution of self-expression, acceptance, and helping people define themselves in term of their clothes, their identities, and the vocabulary they use when doing so." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Millennials and self-expression · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=328) > "I believe that this equalizing is what will keep more girls in schools, results in less gender violence against both men and women, build fairer workplaces that do not have different pay scales for men and women," >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender equality · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=353) > "As Plato said, If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender equality · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=377) > "So hopefully in the future, as Gloria Steinum said, a gender equality society would be one where the word gender does not exist, where everyone can be themselves." >, Lulu Mabunda, guest · topic: Gender equality · [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098995_high.mp3#t=383) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## My Experience with Albinism | Mahle Solombela - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-09-11-my-experience-with-albinism/ - Date: 2021-09-11 (as at 2021-09-11) - Guest: Mahle Solombela - Themes: Living with albinism, Childhood teasing, Oculocutaneous albinism facts, Confidence and self-esteem, A mother's support, Role models - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1098993 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mahle Solombela - Has oculocutaneous albinism, which affects her skin, hair and eyes. She attended a public school and credits discussions with her mother about self-esteem for her confidence. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In a short first-person account, Mahle Solombela describes growing up with oculocutaneous albinism. She recalls being laughed at in church as a young child and how her mother dealt with it. She describes the loneliness she felt at a public school. She gives figures on how common the condition is and explains how it affects her skin, hair and eyes. She also describes how her mother's support and role models such as Deandra Forrester helped her feel proud of who she is. **Key ideas** - Mahle says being a shy child with albinism made it hard to stand up for herself, and attending a public school made things worse. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=20) [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=53)) - Mahle, echoing her mother, insists on the phrasing 'people with albinism, never albino'. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=95) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=98)) - Mahle cites a rate of one in twenty thousand people and concludes she is not alone. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=102) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=113) [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=120)) - Mahle describes the condition's everyday effects: sun sensitivity, sunburn after a field trip, and trouble seeing the board in class. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=123) [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=133) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=141)) - Mahle credits tough situations and talks with her mother about self-esteem for building her confidence and her sense of humour. ([02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=166) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=175) [03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=181)) - Mahle argues her condition makes her special and does not hold her back, and that how she lives with it defines her. ([03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=192) [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=202) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=204) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=207)) **Lessons** - Mahle's story shows a parent stepping in when a shy child reports teasing. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=20) [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=42)) - Mahle holds that the words used matter: say 'people with albinism', not 'albino'. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=95)) - Mahle describes difficult experiences becoming a source of confidence and humour over time. ([02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=166) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=175)) - Mahle points to role models with albinism, such as Deandra Forrester, as a reminder that the condition need not hold anyone back. ([03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=192) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=204)) **Who it's for:** People with albinism and their families, parents of shy children who are teased, and teachers or classmates who want to understand the daily realities of living with albinism. **Facts stated in the episode** - Mahle cites MadelinePlus.gov: oculocutaneous albinism occurs in one in every twenty thousand people worldwide. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=102)) - Mahle estimates she is approximately one of 395,000 people with the condition in a world population of 7.9 billion. ([01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=113)) - Mahle states that oculocutaneous albinism affects the skin, hair and eyes. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=123)) - Mahle names Deandra Forrester as a famous model with albinism and a role model. ([03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=192)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is it like growing up with albinism?** A: Mahle says it was difficult, especially as a shy child. People stared and laughed at her, and attending a public school made things worse. She spent lunch breaks with girls who did not like her because she was afraid to be alone. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=20) [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=53) [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=64)) **Q: Should you say 'albino' or 'person with albinism'?** A: Mahle, quoting her mother, says it's people with albinism, never albino. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=95) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=98)) **Q: How common is oculocutaneous albinism?** A: Citing MadelinePlus.gov, Mahle says it occurs in one in every twenty thousand people worldwide. That makes her roughly one of 395,000 people out of 7.9 billion. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=102) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=113)) **Q: What does oculocutaneous albinism affect?** A: Mahle says it affects her skin, hair and eyes. She cannot enjoy the sun or look at the sky without being dazzled. She got sunburnt after a field trip and struggled to see the board in class. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=123) [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=133) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=141)) **Q: How can a child with albinism build self-confidence?** A: Mahle credits countless discussions with her mother about self-esteem, the lessons of tough situations, and role models like Deandra Forrester for her confidence. ([02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=166) [03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=181) [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=192)) **Q: Does albinism hold people back?** A: Mahle says it makes her unique and does not hold her back. How she chooses to live with it is what defines her. ([03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=202) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=204) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=207)) ### Passage: Teased at church and struggling at school [00:07-01:13, 223 words] Note (AI): Mahle's childhood account of being laughed at, her mother's intervention, and how shyness made school harder. Mahle Solombela, guest [00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=7): > When I was about five or six years old, I visited a different church from my usual one and sat along with the other children around my age. Throughout the little service we had, I noticed two older boys who sat not too far away from me. Every time I looked in their direction, I picked up on how they would stare and laugh at me. Having dealt with similar situations before, but not being too good at standing up for myself, I took note of it and made sure to let my mother know. When the service had ended and I saw her again, I explained to her what had happened and pointed them out, saying, Those two boys. She called for them, and they walked over with the biggest worry in their eyes. From there, she told them off, and they left looking sure they would never tease anyone again. Growing up with albinism was difficult, especially because of the shy child I was. This made it quite difficult to stand out for myself, and attending a public school only made things worse. I had only one good friend, and luckily she stuck well by me, but most days I'd spend my lunch breaks with a group of girls who didn't really like me because I was afraid to be alone. ### Passage: Living with oculocutaneous albinism and finding confidence [01:42-03:30, 320 words] Note (AI): Explains the condition and its daily effects, then traces how her mother's support and role models built her self-confidence. Mahle Solombela, guest [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=102): > I have what is called oculocutaneous albinism. And according to MadelinePlus.gov, oculocutaneous albinism occurs in one in every twenty thousand people worldwide. In a world population of seven point nine billion, I'm approximately one of three hundred and ninety-five thousand people with this condition, so I know that I'm not alone in this. Having oculocutaneous albinism means that it affects my skin, hair, and eyes. This can be pretty bothersome considering how much I enjoy nature. I don't get to bask in the sun or look up in the sky in beautiful, cloudless days without seeing the sun a few shades darker, or it absolutely dazzling me. But at least I get to tell stories about how one time I had a field trip and came to school the next day to an unannounced picture day looking the same colors everyone's favorite red Power Ranger, or about how I would playfully get teased by my classmates when I couldn't see the board from my seat in class. I've learned to live around the little challenges that I face every day, so in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't all that bad. Unfortunately, I still haven't mastered how to school someone or just have a good enough comeback when someone says something plain ignorant. But all the tough situations teach me confidence and make me comfortable enough to make silly little jokes. And despite the occasional stares, countless discussions with my mother about self-esteem have helped me become confident enough to speak proudly the way I am now about my albinism. When I look at role models like Deandra Forrester, a famous model with albinism, I know that while this may be tough sometimes and that the boys in church may giggle, my condition makes me special. It makes me unique and it does not hold me back. How I choose to live with it is what defines me. ### Quotes > "it's people with albinism, never albino." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=98) > "so I know that I'm not alone in this." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=120) > "I've learned to live around the little challenges that I face every day," >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=160) > "all the tough situations teach me confidence and make me comfortable enough to make silly little jokes." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=175) > "my condition makes me special. It makes me unique and it does not hold me back." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=202) > "How I choose to live with it is what defines me." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=207) ### Claims > "When I was about five or six years old, I visited a different church from my usual one and sat along with the other children around my age." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Childhood teasing · [00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=7) > "Every time I looked in their direction, I picked up on how they would stare and laugh at me. Having dealt with similar situations before, but not being too good at standing up for myself, I took note of it and made sure to let my mother know." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Childhood teasing · [00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=20) > "She called for them, and they walked over with the biggest worry in their eyes. From there, she told them off, and they left looking sure they would never tease anyone again." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: A mother's support · [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=42) > "Growing up with albinism was difficult, especially because of the shy child I was. This made it quite difficult to stand out for myself, and attending a public school only made things worse." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Living with albinism · [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=53) > "I had only one good friend, and luckily she stuck well by me, but most days I'd spend my lunch breaks with a group of girls who didn't really like me because I was afraid to be alone." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Childhood teasing · [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=64) > "she mentions how people would walk down the street and shout albino at her in an overly excited or surprised manner, and how people would just stop to get a good look at her for whoever knows what reason. These are both situations that I've experienced," >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Living with albinism · [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=80) > "please note, as my powerful mother always says, it's people with albinism, never albino." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: A mother's support · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=95) > "I have what is called oculocutaneous albinism. And according to MadelinePlus.gov, oculocutaneous albinism occurs in one in every twenty thousand people worldwide." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Oculocutaneous albinism facts · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=102) > "In a world population of seven point nine billion, I'm approximately one of three hundred and ninety-five thousand people with this condition, so I know that I'm not alone in this." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Oculocutaneous albinism facts · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=113) > "Having oculocutaneous albinism means that it affects my skin, hair, and eyes. This can be pretty bothersome considering how much I enjoy nature." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Oculocutaneous albinism facts · [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=123) > "I don't get to bask in the sun or look up in the sky in beautiful, cloudless days without seeing the sun a few shades darker, or it absolutely dazzling me." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Living with albinism · [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=133) > "But at least I get to tell stories about how one time I had a field trip and came to school the next day to an unannounced picture day looking the same colors everyone's favorite red Power Ranger," >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Living with albinism · [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=141) > "I've learned to live around the little challenges that I face every day, so in the grand scheme of things, it really isn't all that bad." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Living with albinism · [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=160) > "Unfortunately, I still haven't mastered how to school someone or just have a good enough comeback when someone says something plain ignorant. But all the tough situations teach me confidence and make me comfortable enough to make silly little jokes." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Confidence and self-esteem · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=166) > "And despite the occasional stares, countless discussions with my mother about self-esteem have helped me become confident enough to speak proudly the way I am now about my albinism." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Confidence and self-esteem · [03:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=181) > "When I look at role models like Deandra Forrester, a famous model with albinism, I know that while this may be tough sometimes and that the boys in church may giggle, my condition makes me special." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Role models · [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=192) > "It makes me unique and it does not hold me back. How I choose to live with it is what defines me." >, Mahle Solombela, guest · topic: Confidence and self-esteem · [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1098993_high.mp3#t=204) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Ruthless curiosity, recreational obsessions and good views on gaming - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-08-24-ruthless-curiosity-recreational-obsessions-and-good/ - Date: 2021-08-24 (as at 2021-08-24) - Guest: Richard Mulholland - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Hobbies and happiness, Recreational obsessions, Chasing frustration not passion, Gaming and young people, Parenting and boundaries, Ruthless curiosity, School clubs and spaces - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1090174 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Richard Mulholland - Founder and CEO · Missing Link - Founder of Missing Link, which helps people give presentations. He gave a three-minute talk called First Impressions Lie at TED Global in 2005. His first book is called Legacide. In their own words: > "When I went to TED Global in 2005, it was the first time TED had come across the pond. So TEDx hadn't been launched yet." [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=135) > "So I was like, okay, cool, I accept, and I put forward to do a talk called First Impressions Lie. And they accepted it, and so that was it. That was my, my three-minute claim to fame." [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=150) > "so my first book I wrote is called Legacide, and I actually got to war with that idea quite early on." [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=480) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Hosts Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison talk with Richard Mulholland, founder of Missing Link, about hobbies and happiness. Richard argues that success does not bring happiness and describes his 'recreational obsessions'. He challenges the advice to do what you love and defends video gaming as an active, cooperative hobby. He also describes the gaming rules in his household and names 'ruthless curiosity' as the value he most wants his children to have. The hosts describe pupils' rising anxiety and the habits needed for online learning. They also explain how Edu Inc builds afternoon clubs around the shared curiosities of teachers and students. **Key ideas** - Richard argues that people have been sold the idea that success brings happiness. He says you cannot check the success box until you check the happy box. ([04:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=267) [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=271) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=281) [04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=284)) - Richard calls his hobbies 'recreational obsessions'. They let him switch on something else after work and give him more boxes to draw ideas from. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=335) [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=369) [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=369) [07:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=439) [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=442)) - Richard says instead of doing what you love, you should chase your highest frustration and fall in love with solving the problem. Frustrations point to markets. ([08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=480) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=551) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=577) [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=582) [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=598) [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=604)) - Richard sees competitive gaming as a lean-in, cooperative hobby involving decisions per second. He notes the industry's size and the careers it offers. ([11:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=698) [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=719) [14:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=892) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=909) [16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=964)) - Gershom distinguishes active recreation such as gaming from passive TV watching. He frames school and hobbies as an 'and' conversation rather than an 'or'. ([11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=662) [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=676) [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=858)) - Richard says parents' job is to keep children's 'gas tank' full, never to empty it. He encourages kids to chase whatever excites them. ([12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=763) [12:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=779) [23:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1437) [24:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1441)) - Richard names ruthless curiosity as the one core value he would want his children to have. ([26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1582) [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1598)) - Richard cites the longest study of men as finding that those with consistent hobbies were happiest. He contrasts hobbies with alcohol as switching the brain on rather than off. ([32:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1923) [32:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1937) [32:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1978) [32:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1978)) **Lessons** - Richard sets clear rules rather than removing hobbies. His son plays no games during the week, apart from a Wednesday break. ([11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=676) [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1019)) - Richard relays Dustin Botha's advice: be obsessively attentive at school so the work is done and home time is free. ([17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1049) [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1068)) - Richard asks for a degree of commitment, such as a full year, when money is spent on a child's new hobby. ([27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1666)) - Gershom opens his own interests to his children and joins theirs, rather than chasing them to engage. ([25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1523)) - Richard suggests companies should make play and recreational obsession a thing for their staff. ([35:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2144)) **Who it's for:** Parents of teenagers who worry about gaming and screen time, and educators who run extracurricular clubs. Also professionals and entrepreneurs curious about how hobbies relate to happiness and fresh ideas at work. **Facts stated in the episode** - Richard attended TED Global in 2005 and gave a three-minute talk called First Impressions Lie. ([02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=135) [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=150)) - Richard puts the video game industry at seventy billion dollars, versus fifty billion for Hollywood and about twenty billion for US professional sports. ([11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=719)) - Richard's first book is called Legacide. ([08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=480)) - Richard does vocational reading every workday from nine to ten. ([30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1849)) - Jacqueline says the school had pupils learning from home within 48 hours of the COVID shift. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1112)) - Richard's son may game for about an hour and a half on Wednesdays, but not otherwise during the week. ([16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1019)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Does being successful make you happy?** A: Richard says no. He argues we've been sold the idea that success brings happiness, and that you don't get to check the success box until you check the happy box. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=271) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=281) [04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=284)) **Q: Is 'do what you love' good career advice?** A: Richard calls it problematic. He says turning a love into your job means you lose it as a hobby, and that opportunity lies in frustrations. He advises chasing your highest frustration and learning to love what you do. ([08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=519) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=551) [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=582) [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=598)) **Q: Are video games bad for teenagers?** A: Richard argues they are a lean-in, cooperative hobby that demands decisions per second under stress. He also points to a seventy billion dollar industry with many careers. ([11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=719) [14:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=892) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=909) [16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=964)) **Q: How can I limit my teen's gaming without taking it away?** A: Richard's son doesn't play during the week except for about an hour and a half on Wednesdays. Gershom frames it as an 'and' conversation that parents manage. ([11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=662) [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=676) [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1019)) **Q: How can my child fit schoolwork around hobbies?** A: Richard relays advice given to his son: school is hackable if you are obsessively attentive in class and get everything done during school hours. ([17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1049) [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1068)) **Q: What should parents do when kids are anxious and withdrawing?** A: Jacqueline reports rising anxiety and avoidance at school. Richard says parents should lean into whatever interests their kids and keep their tank as full as possible. ([22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1376) [23:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1437) [24:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1441)) **Q: What value should parents most try to build in children?** A: Richard says ruthless curiosity, which he believes is almost the best skill to have because curiosity draws you in. ([26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1582) [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1598)) **Q: Why do hobbies help people at work?** A: Richard says you cannot output what you didn't input. People who only input from their vocation become narrowly focused, whereas hobbies give him more boxes to draw from. ([06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=369) [07:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=439)) **Q: Is there research linking hobbies to happiness?** A: Richard cites the longest study of men, which followed participants from their teens into their nineties. He says those with consistent hobbies were the happiest. ([32:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1923) [32:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1937)) ### Passage: Success does not bring happiness; recreational obsessions do [04:27-06:18, 386 words] Note (AI): Richard sets out his core argument that hobbies, not business success, drive happiness, and introduces the term recreational obsessions. Richard Mulholland, guest [04:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=267): > All right, so there's a couple of things and a couple of parts to this. The first thing is I think that we've been sold on a river, and the river we've been sold on is the idea that being successful is going to make you happy. And I actually don't think that's the case. In fact, what I say in that video is that you don't get to check the success box until you check the happy box. And I know that because I'm around entrepreneurs all the time, and I can't tell you how many of them on any metric of business success are more successful, way, way, way more successful than I am, but they're not happy. And they're constantly at work, and they're constantly putting their soul into their work, and they go home, and they always say, I just want to get home, and I want to switch off. But, you know, I've got the kids there, I've got to do this. I sit there, and I think, wow, this is so broken, because I have way less, maybe, financial resources than you, but I go home every day, I, you know, the end of the day comes, or maybe a bit early if I feel like it, and I go, and I engage with my hobbies, and I'm just generally a much happier person. Like, I'm a very happy person. And I realize that this role of hobbies was a big part to play with that. So I refer to them as recreational obsessions. Now, typically, what happens is people are only really obsessed with their work, with their vocation, but I have a number of obsessions that feed me. So, you know, again, when the lockdown happened, I, you know, I love, I love reading fiction, I love board games, I love riding my electric skateboard, like I, I like snowboarding, there's a lot of things, motorcycle riding that I'm obsessed with, and being able to move into one of those recreational obsessions and to shift my state, I think is what's allowed me to be happy. I don't switch off at the end of a workday, I switch on something else, and that's a big part of what I think where my, my enjoyment of life comes from. ### Passage: Why 'do what you love' is problematic [08:00-10:07, 469 words] Note (AI): A worked argument against following your passion, using his son's game-design ambitions and his own presentation business, ending in his 'chase your frustration' advice. Richard Mulholland, guest [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=480): > Yeah, so my first book I wrote is called Legacide, and I actually got to war with that idea quite early on. I, I really, really think it's problematic. If I did what I loved, I'd be a pizza delivery guy. You know, I would, I love motorcycles. You know, if I wanted to ride motorcycles all day, I'd go get a job for take a lot or something like this, right? That's not what I want to do. And in fact, what you invariably find is that people who do what they love end up not So my son wants to get into game design, and that's partially because of not so much the games he plays, but actually the board game stuff. They've been designing board games for me for my, for my birthday for years and these kind of things, you know, and so this is something that he wants to look at. But the, the people that he's been speaking to who are, who are in video games, they all tell him the same warning, just be, be ready to let go of your love, because you're not going to feel like playing video games when you come home after a day of video gaming. And he's okay with that. He's like, okay, fine, like I'm happy to make this my vocation and have another recreational obsession. And I'm sure there will be some times he wants to play, but I, I think that when you say yes to something being your primary vocation, then it's no longer your recreational obsession. You'll need to find something new. whereas instead of doing what you love, learn to love what you do. So I do presentations for goodness sake, like I make, help people be better at PowerPoint. I didn't get into that because I loved it, I got into it because I hated it. I thought presentations were so bad, and as entrepreneurs, we fix a problem or we fill a gap. You guys are changing the way people think about education, you're doing things differently. You didn't do that because you loved it and you felt everything was perfect, you didn't chase your passion, you chased your frustration, and you executed on that. And the other byproduct of that, by the way, is if you do what you love, then it already works. That means the opportunity there is, is somewhat less. If you find something that frustrates you and you fix it, well then there's a market there, because people, you know, can tap into that. So I always say chase your highest frustration, and then fall in love with solving the problem, and you can still love your work. Find something you hate and fix it, you will have the best day ever. ### Passage: Video games industry and filling the gas tank [11:38-13:38, 440 words] Note (AI): Speaks directly to parents worried about gaming: industry size, careers in games, the 'gas tank' idea and online friendships. Richard Mulholland, guest [11:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=698): > I, I also think, you know, a lot of people worry about the, you know, this game design thing, and, you know, going to getting into video games, and this is just a, you know, it's, it's, first of all, we need to understand that what's big in our world isn't big in their world. You know, what's big in my world isn't big in your world, and that's, that's an important point of departure. This video game thing that they see as being a distraction for their kids. Video games are currently larger, so it's a seventy billion dollar industry, which is bigger than the fifty billion dollar Hollywood industry and the twenty billion dollar or nineteen billion dollar professional American sports industry. Getting into the video game industry, you can be an accountant, a designer, a writer, a set designer, a, you know, there's so many different things there. Your kids are training, they're learning, if that's a field they wanted to get into, you know, they're learning in their obsession at this stage, and again, this will hold them in good stead. So even if they become an accountant in this, in maybe a field that they're passionate about, they get a job at one of the big game publishers, and then they are able to make their recreational obsession work. That's okay. So right now, what I think at this stage, I think we should be encouraging our kids to chase anything that gets them excited. All I want is my kids, okay, and you're gonna have to probably bleep this, but we talk about having a gas tank. All I want My kid's gas tank, their give a shit tank to be full. The biggest problem with the world today is people that have an empty gas tank. If your give a shit tank is empty, you're not going to be motivating yourself to do anything. My son is very motivated by doing a destiny, getting onto destiny, meeting with his friends. You know, it took me ages to, to realize that, that the four kids, other kids that he's been speaking to online for the last five years are his best friends. He's met two of them in person. And for a while I was like, this is so crazy. And then I realized, you know, I speak to my best friends on Zoom all day long. And I, you know, one of them just moved to England. I don't see him every day. Like, like this is the reality we're in. So who am I to judge what his friendship should be like? ### Passage: Gaming as decisions per second [14:52-16:43, 377 words] Note (AI): Richard explains why he sees competitive gaming as an active, cooperative, decision-heavy hobby rather than wasted time. Richard Mulholland, guest [14:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=892): > There was a great book I read years ago, maybe when my, my son's eighteen now, he's in matric, I, I read it when he was maybe, I don't know, seven or eight, and it was called Everything Bad Is Good For You. And the entire premise was they explained, and this was already back then, the amount of thought processes. And so in board game, I rate in board games my enjoyment based on a decisions per minute scale. How many meaningful decisions do I have to make in a minute? And if I try to compare that to what my son is doing, he has to make decisions per second. But he is making decisions per second. That guy just ran out there. He is using this weapon. He's got that armor. This weapon I have is not going to work with that armor. I'm going to be jumping up across this. I've got to move out of the way of his weapon. I've got to switch my weapon to a different thing. And I should probably be moving forward. And I've got to time it because my weapon is optimized to do something at, you know, 0.3 seconds after he moves into my range. And fires it and then gets a headshot and makes a video of it and shows it to me at dinner. Now that's the computational processing that video gamers are doing. And parents are getting upset with them that they're just vegging their life away. My son's ability to compute and make good decisions under stressful situations, because it is stressful for him, is very real. This is not bad for you. This is a very, very lean in hobby. And it's a cooperative hobby, so he can't do it by himself. He has to work with other people. I think we are going to see a very positive upswing of behavior because of the level of decision making that this generation is having to do. And then, by the way, while he's doing that, he's watching YouTube videos on the side with other guys streaming. And invariably, if it's a break, he'll be checking out, you know, an anime, as you mentioned, or something like this, or a manga. ### Passage: Richard's childhood hobbies from fiction to Magic [28:11-30:23, 458 words] Note (AI): The guest's own story of how reading, game books and Dungeons and Dragons shaped him, and why he values fiction. Richard Mulholland, guest [28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1691): > So first of all, the most important hobby that I've ever had in my life that led to everything was reading fiction. So I started reading fiction, then I started reading fantasy. So I was reading a bunch of game books. The series I got into was a series called Bloodsword, and you would read a book, and it wasn't just a choose-your-own-adventure, you actually had to roll dice and make choices and go and fight things. From there, I decided that, okay, I want to get Dungeons and Dragons. And the funny thing about, so I was at quite a big school, and a lot of people don't want kids to be at big schools, but, you know, with lots of, so my year had ten classes. And the one advantage of that is that there are more outliers, there's more space for the outliers to fit in. everybody went to Feld School, and I didn't go, and I took my new, brand new red box of Dungeons and Dragons there, and two of the other kids who didn't go to Feld School, there was five of us in total, walked up and said, oh, we love that you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, but you bought the wrong box, you need to buy second edition, AD&D second edition. I started playing with them, we became friends for years and years and years and years, we role played all through into probably, I stopped for a couple of years while I was touring, but basically up until my late twenties. Dungeons and Dragons then led into Magic the Gathering, that was my most expensive obsession I've ever done. Gershom Aitchison, host [29:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1767): > Tell me about it. Richard Mulholland, guest [29:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1769): > Yeah. And then, and then there was a few years where it was very, very much like I would, I would always take a little game on holiday, and I would play on occasion, and then I took my son and my daughter to, Rage. Oh, it must be about eight or nine years ago now. And at Rage, they had a board game stand. And Richard Garfield, the founder of the guy who did, you know, created Magic the Gathering, he had designed a game called King of Tokyo. I bought that game, and the obsession just reignited. But my most consistent is reading fiction. Sorry, sorry, just, and a lot of people don't think this is, this is a hobby. I'm a deep introvert. For me, reading fiction is like my, probably my favorite, favorite, favorite thing to do, and I think it is the thing that's made me the smartest by far, and every fiction book I read has got monetary value, you know, two to one of a business book I read. ### Passage: Edu Inc's afternoon clubs and play at work [33:09-36:07, 583 words] Note (AI): The host describes how the school builds clubs around shared curiosities. Richard extends the idea to workplaces. Gershom Aitchison, host [33:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1989): > So Richard Edu Inc, we're a small school, and our extracurricular activities are not big sports fields. We have a lot of sports kids, and we do cater to, you know, elite sports kids. But what we've done from the very beginning is we've created clubs in the afternoon, and those clubs come together based on teacher and student curiosities and where that juncture is. And some clubs last a term, some last a long time, some are structured by the school because of the teacher's passions, and some are generated by students. So as a departure point, you know, Dungeons and Dragons, the Dungeon Master is one of the students, and he drives the whole process. But the robotics is something that we use for the curriculum, but we've also created the space after school for kids to be able to join. And Mrs. Aitchison and I really believe that our jobs as the leadership of the school is to create spaces where children can explore curiosities and their passions. So if you're a robotics club member, for example, you have access to the robotics lab, that's the 3D printer, and it's expected that you have the responsibility to look after the things in that space. If you want to arrange in the holidays to come and work with the projects and things that you're doing, then you can do that. If you want to arrange in the weekends, you can do that. At break time, you can go into that space, and it's exclusively available to you because of your affiliation with the club, and we don't regulate what that looks like. And often the projects and the things that are happening in that space are not Specified, they're not dictated. It's more a case of, what are you building? That's interesting. What do you want to do with it type of thing. And just allowing them the space to tinker, as it were. The garage band does exactly the same thing. The equipment's there. You can go in and play whatever you want. I left school today and three of the students were busy playing, one on the drums, one on the guitar, one on the piano, and they were just tinkering around because we've created the space for them to do that. Richard Mulholland, guest [35:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2101): > I mean, I think that's absolutely incredible. When I was at school and they found out about Dungeons and Dragons, they, they called my parents in and tried to have an exorcism. The world has changed. but, and I just, I mean, obviously, I jealously wish this was something that we had. But, you know, I have that now, and I think that it's such a pity that I can't imagine as a single parent listening to this that doesn't think that's amazing. My, I think we spend a lot of time worrying about the youth, and I think we spend not nearly enough time worrying about people my age, you know, I'm 46, right? And I think that don't just be excited about this stuff, like if you have that, start that in your business, like people should be doing this in their companies and places to, you know, to make play and recreational obsession a thing. Like, you know, Google says it has that, you know, that 20% time, but that's still doing work. I'm like, give people more time, like encourage people to have these recreational obsessions. You know, ruthless curiosity and recreational obsession. ### Quotes > "you don't get to check the success box until you check the happy box." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=284) > "I don't switch off at the end of a workday, I switch on something else," >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=369) > "I just think I have more boxes to draw from." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=442) > "you didn't chase your passion, you chased your frustration, and you executed on that." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=577) > "Find something you hate and fix it, you will have the best day ever." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=604) > "He sat down with, with my son Callum, and he said, Cal, school is hackable." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1049) > "Our job as parents should never be to empty the tank." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [24:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1441) > "curiosity creates gravity, right? It like draws you into something." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1598) > "So boredom is a luxury, and if, if kids are getting bored, then they need some more hobbies," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1905) > "the one really, really switches your brain on, and the other helps your brain switch off." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [32:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1978) > "When I was at school and they found out about Dungeons and Dragons, they, they called my parents in and tried to have an exorcism." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · [35:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2103) ### Claims > "When I went to TED Global in 2005, it was the first time TED had come across the pond. So TEDx hadn't been launched yet." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: TED talk · [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=135) > "So I was like, okay, cool, I accept, and I put forward to do a talk called First Impressions Lie. And they accepted it, and so that was it. That was my, my three-minute claim to fame." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: TED talk · [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=150) > "The first thing is I think that we've been sold on a river, and the river we've been sold on is the idea that being successful is going to make you happy. And I actually don't think that's the case." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=271) > "In fact, what I say in that video is that you don't get to check the success box until you check the happy box." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=281) > "So I refer to them as recreational obsessions. Now, typically, what happens is people are only really obsessed with their work, with their vocation, but I have a number of obsessions that feed me." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=335) > "I don't switch off at the end of a workday, I switch on something else, and that's a big part of what I think where my, my enjoyment of life comes from." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=369) > "You know, people often say to me that I think outside the box, but I don't think I do. I just think I have more boxes to draw from. You know, you cannot output anything that you didn't input first, and most people only input stuff in their vocation, and I think that makes you very narrowly focused." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [07:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=439) > "so my first book I wrote is called Legacide, and I actually got to war with that idea quite early on." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Chasing frustration not passion · [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=480) > "But the, the people that he's been speaking to who are, who are in video games, they all tell him the same warning, just be, be ready to let go of your love, because you're not going to feel like playing video games when you come home after a day of video gaming." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Chasing frustration not passion · [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=519) > "whereas instead of doing what you love, learn to love what you do. So I do presentations for goodness sake, like I make, help people be better at PowerPoint. I didn't get into that because I loved it, I got into it because I hated it." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Chasing frustration not passion · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=551) > "And the other byproduct of that, by the way, is if you do what you love, then it already works. That means the opportunity there is, is somewhat less. If you find something that frustrates you and you fix it, well then there's a market there," >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Chasing frustration not passion · [09:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=582) > "So I always say chase your highest frustration, and then fall in love with solving the problem, and you can still love your work. Find something you hate and fix it, you will have the best day ever." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Chasing frustration not passion · [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=598) > "And the conversation that I have to have with them is that it can be an and conversation. I can be good at school and do all the schoolwork, and I can do gaming, and I can do sport, and I can have an exciting life." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=662) > "But when you're not managing that, and the exciting stuff becomes the hundred percent focal point and obsession, and you're not doing the work part, then often the parents have to step in, and it's an all conversation." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=676) > "Video games are currently larger, so it's a seventy billion dollar industry, which is bigger than the fifty billion dollar Hollywood industry and the twenty billion dollar or nineteen billion dollar professional American sports industry." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Gaming and young people · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=719) > "So right now, what I think at this stage, I think we should be encouraging our kids to chase anything that gets them excited." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=763) > "The biggest problem with the world today is people that have an empty gas tank. If your give a shit tank is empty, you're not going to be motivating yourself to do anything." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [12:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=779) > "it took me ages to, to realize that, that the four kids, other kids that he's been speaking to online for the last five years are his best friends. He's met two of them in person." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Gaming and young people · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=793) > "And I see things like computer games developing things like strategy and focus and, as you said, team building and connectivity with other people, and it's an active process, whereas sitting watching TV is quite a passive process" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Gaming and young people · [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=858) > "And so in board game, I rate in board games my enjoyment based on a decisions per minute scale. How many meaningful decisions do I have to make in a minute?" >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Gaming and young people · [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=909) > "My son's ability to compute and make good decisions under stressful situations, because it is stressful for him, is very real. This is not bad for you. This is a very, very lean in hobby. And it's a cooperative hobby, so he can't do it by himself." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Gaming and young people · [16:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=964) > "So my son isn't allowed to play games during the week. That's, that's the rule we, we set up for him, and then he's very happy with that, and, and that's it. On a Wednesday, if he wants to, he can do like an hour and a half with his mates to give him a little bit of a midweek break" >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [16:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1019) > "He said, the way I hack school is I realized I have to be there anyway, so I'm just obsessively attentive when I'm at school, and I try get absolutely everything done during school hours so I can get home and switch off." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1068) > "We started schooling from home, and it was within 48 hours we had our kids going, and we haven't missed an hour of school, and they've, we've did full curriculum, face-to-face teaching, you know, all of that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1112) > "But one of the things that we quickly discovered was that to be successful online takes a specific pattern of behaviors, because what we were finding is that the kids don't necessarily have the skill set yet, because they've never needed it before," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning · [18:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1123) > "Traditional research or traditional studies suggest that as human beings, our brains are not physiologically capable of multitasking. They say there's a transaction cost every time we switch between two different things." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Gaming and young people · [21:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1309) > "There's massive anxiety, and it has definitely increased. It's definitely higher than we've ever encountered as a school before. And what we're seeing is more avoidance behavior when it comes to the downtime." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1376) > "If they're leaning into something, again, that's filling their tank. Our job as parents should never be to empty the tank. Our job as parents should always make sure the tank is as full as possible." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [23:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1437) > "why we still have TV rooms in our homes as central meeting areas is completely and utterly beyond me, because television is no longer a staging area for the family." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1471) > "in my experience, I have a lot of curiosities and things that I really like doing, and I open the space for them to join me in those curiosities and passions. And if I find something interesting that they're doing that I'd like to be exposed to, I'll jump into it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Ruthless curiosity · [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1523) > "If there was, if there was one core value I'd want my kids to have, it's ruthless curiosity. I think there's almost no better skill to have." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Ruthless curiosity · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1582) > "And I'm not going to hold her to it like a sentence, but I do believe it's okay for us if we're spending money to, to get some degree of commitment. Like, there's These things need to last beyond the novelty." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Parenting and boundaries · [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1666) > "So first of all, the most important hobby that I've ever had in my life that led to everything was reading fiction." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1691) > "I'm a deep introvert. For me, reading fiction is like my, probably my favorite, favorite, favorite thing to do, and I think it is the thing that's made me the smartest by far, and every fiction book I read has got monetary value, you know, two to one of a business book I read." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [30:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1806) > "Every single day from nine to ten is vocational reading. So I read about something to do with my craft every work day from nine to ten. I'm just trying to learn." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1849) > "In the longest study ever done, it was all men, but in the longest study ever done of men, some of the participants, you know, they started in their teens and they're now in their nineties." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [32:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1923) > "And it's the people who had hobbies and consistent hobbies and other things to, to keep their mind going were the happiest as a whole." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [32:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1937) > "but the one really, really switches your brain on, and the other helps your brain switch off. And I think if you did more of the, former, you wouldn't need as much of the latter." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Hobbies and happiness · [32:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1978) > "But what we've done from the very beginning is we've created clubs in the afternoon, and those clubs come together based on teacher and student curiosities and where that juncture is." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School clubs and spaces · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=1999) > "And Mrs. Aitchison and I really believe that our jobs as the leadership of the school is to create spaces where children can explore curiosities and their passions." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School clubs and spaces · [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2033) > "When I was at school and they found out about Dungeons and Dragons, they, they called my parents in and tried to have an exorcism. The world has changed." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: School clubs and spaces · [35:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2103) > "like if you have that, start that in your business, like people should be doing this in their companies and places to, you know, to make play and recreational obsession a thing." >, Richard Mulholland, guest · topic: Recreational obsessions · [35:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1090174_high.mp3#t=2144) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Why hobbies make us happy and the importance of having them with Richard Mulholland (Missing Link Founder and CEO) In this episode Mr and Mrs Aitchison connect with Richard Mulholland, this time to talk about how ruthless curiosity leads to recreational obsessions, the things that fill up our gas tanks and make us happy. Rich does this by sharing his unique insights into hobbies, gaming and raising children in the 21st century. Missing Link Website · Why is Richard always so happy? · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google · Transcription (automated so has errors), PDF (105.2 KB) ## The difference that makes the difference - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-08-10-the-difference-that-makes-the-difference/ - Date: 2021-08-10 (as at 2021-08-10) - Guest: Mandy, Creina, Debbie - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Hybrid learning design, Small class sizes, Choosing the right school, Warning signs of unhappiness, Self-discipline and routine, Social life at school, Trial week, IQ, EQ and AQ - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1083678 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mandy - Parent of Eden, a daughter in grade ten at Edu Inc; her younger daughter attends a big mainstream private school. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Creina - Parent of Sam, a son in grade ten at Edu Inc, who previously attended a mainstream private school. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Debbie - Parent of Oliver, a son in grade five at Edu Inc; her other son attends a larger private school. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Edu Inc headmaster Gershom Aitchison talks with three parents, Mandy, Creina and Debbie, who each have one child at Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, with small classes by design, and a sibling at a large private school. Gershom explains how the school designed its hybrid classroom. The parents describe why they moved a child, the warning signs they noticed, how the trial week helped them decide, and how the social side has worked out. They then give advice to parents weighing a move. **Key ideas** - Gershom distinguishes hybrid learning, which he describes as synchronous face-to-face teaching whether pupils are present physically or digitally, from asynchronous online learning. ([02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=158) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=194)) - Gershom says an effective hybrid space needs technology for communication, technology for work and technological behaviours, and that sound was the biggest communication challenge. ([03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=235) [04:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=251) [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=336)) - Debbie contrasts a weekly 'work dump' at her younger son's school with Edu Inc's full live timetable, and credits routine for what worked. ([07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=479) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1273)) - Creina frames the move as choosing the vehicle that suits the child, a Beetle rather than a Rolls Royce, and values a personalised approach. ([12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=722) [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1578)) - Creina describes IQ as thinking, EQ as feeling and AQ as the doing and application, which she sees as preparation for the real world. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1575) [28:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1724)) - The parents say a child's unhappiness showed in lost smiles, refusing school and negative self-talk, and that they noticed it slowly. ([34:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2097) [36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2171) [57:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3448)) - Mandy and Debbie argue that fears about a smaller social pool are overstated, citing friendships across grades and outside clubs. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1939) [43:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2619) [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2675) [49:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2947)) - Gershom urges parents to set aside their own educational history and look at their child's journey on its own terms. ([66:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3971)) **Gershom's three elements of an effective hybrid classroom** ([03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=235) [04:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=251) [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=298) [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=336) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=407)) 1. Technology for communication: webcam and screen at the back of the class, plus a boom mic for spontaneous discussion. 2. Technology for work. 3. Technological behaviours: cameras on, uniform worn at home, and teachers prompting disengaged pupils. **Lessons** - Debbie advises choosing the environment in which a particular child blossoms rather than the school that seems most prestigious. ([33:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2014) [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2041)) - Creina and Debbie warn that persisting in the hope things will improve can keep a child in the wrong school too long. ([58:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3530) [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3592)) - Mandy says telling her daughters that online schoolwork was their own responsibility worked better than policing them. ([17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1050) [17:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1079)) - Debbie says moving a child is never a failure; leaving them where they do not thrive is. ([63:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3803) [63:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3804)) - The parents describe a full trial week as a way to reduce first-day anxiety and let the child help make the decision. ([52:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3145)) **Who it's for:** Parents in South Africa whose child is unhappy or struggling at a large school, who are considering whether to move them, or who want to understand how a small-class hybrid timetable and trial week work in practice. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom says Edu Inc's class size is ten students, and smaller in the younger grades. ([13:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=839)) - Gershom says the school currently has seventy-five students. ([42:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2572)) - Debbie says Nedbank announced that staff other than customer-facing people will work from home. ([09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=591)) - Debbie says her younger son at a large private school has one to three half-hour Zoom calls a week. ([07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=479)) - Gershom makes two promises to students: he will always be honest, and they will work harder than ever before. ([53:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3203) [53:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3225)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between hybrid learning and online learning?** A: Gershom says hybrid learning is synchronous, face-to-face teaching in which pupils or teachers can be present physically or digitally. He describes online learning as asynchronous, with pre-recorded content and pupils working at their own pace to deadlines. ([02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=158) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=194)) **Q: How do you run a class with some students at home and some in the room?** A: Gershom describes a screen and webcam at the back of the class so remote pupils sit 'at the back' and the teacher can see them. He adds a boom mic for discussion, and pupils keep cameras on and wear uniform. ([03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=235) [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=298) [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=336) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=407)) **Q: What are signs my child is unhappy at school and needs to move?** A: Mandy describes a daughter who stopped laughing and smiling, refused school, became aggressive at home and called herself stupid and worthless. She says she only noticed once she admitted something was wrong. ([34:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2097) [36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2171) [57:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3448)) **Q: Will my child's social life suffer at a school with small classes?** A: Mandy says her daughter made four close friends, as she had at her old school. Debbie and Creina point to friendships across grades, contact with old friends and sports clubs, and Debbie calls the objection not a valid issue. ([43:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2619) [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2675) [49:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2947)) **Q: Is it worth doing a trial week at a new school?** A: Debbie says a full week's trial takes the anxiety out of the first day. Creina says her son ultimately made the decision, and Mandy says her daughter chose to stay after the trial. ([37:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2277) [52:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3145)) **Q: What do IQ, EQ and AQ mean at Edu Inc?** A: Creina describes IQ as the thinking, EQ as the feeling, and AQ as the doing and application, which she links to accountability and preparation for life after school. ([28:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1724)) **Q: Why might small classes help a child who is falling behind?** A: Debbie says her son was getting lost in a big class. At Edu Inc the teachers know where he needs help and when to let him run, and she says this boosted his confidence. ([07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=451) [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=876) [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=914)) **Q: Is moving my child to a different school a sign of failure?** A: Debbie says moving a child to the right environment is never a failure; the failure is leaving them where they do not thrive. Mandy says the move was easier than she expected. ([60:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3642) [63:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3803)) ### Passage: Designing a working hybrid classroom [03:55-06:09, 428 words] Note (AI): Gershom explains the prototyping process, the three elements he identified, and the practical camera and sound set-up that let remote pupils take part in live lessons. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=235): > Creina, at the end of last year, we went through a very rigorous design process with the teachers and some external people to get an idea of what a hybrid learning space would be. And we did that and we prototyped it so that we could see what would actually work. We had an idea. And what we found is that there were three elements to creating a hybrid space and making it very effective. The first was we identified that there's technology for communication. The second thing we identified is technology for work. And the most important is we identified technological behaviors. And if one of those three elements are absent, then the system collapses. It doesn't work effectively. So in a classroom situation, a hybrid classroom situation, Technology for communication is one of the most important things. And initially, when we started the design process, conceptually we thought that there would be two monitors in front of the classroom, one with the students on a meet and one with the teacher presenting work that needed to be done. But the teacher couldn't see the student in the classroom. So that second monitor actually moved to the back of the classroom with a webcam on it that allows the students at home to be the student at the back of the class viewing the entire class situation, and it helped create that immersive experience for the students who are digitally there. It also made sure that the students digitally were not lost to the teacher. They could see them physically in the classroom, even though they were digitally portrayed in that space. If they put their hands up, if they spoke, and if they were engaging, the teacher could still see their body language, still could see what they were busy doing, and their classmates could see that as well, and they could see their classmates engaging in that space. The biggest challenge in the communication was actually the sound. Because the assumption is that a webcam can do that, but we have to have a boom mic in the classroom to generate spontaneous conversation. So when we are having a discussion, we'll say to the students, come off your mics, and then everyone talks as though they're present, and obviously the sound comes out of the TV at the back of the room, but it's capturing the entire conversation from the boom mic in the middle of the classroom. That was one of the biggest barriers to effective communication and that immersive experience in that classroom. ### Passage: From Rolls Royce to Beetle, and IQ, EQ, AQ [26:15-29:47, 541 words] Note (AI): Creina sets out why her family moved her son, what she values in the school, and how she understands IQ, EQ and AQ as preparation for life. Creina, guest [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1575): > Eventually, my husband turned around to me and said, what is the point of putting our child in a Rolls Royce if actually he needs a Beetle and he'll really get a lot out of a Beetle? And then we started looking, and I think when we made the leap, it was a leap of faith. I did a lot of research. I did as much as I could, and there wasn't, there wasn't enough. There was never enough. But we took the leap of faith. I think the trial week was exceptional. And I think that what started standing out for me was a generosity of spirit and time that for me started making a distinction between what I would call the practice of education versus the business of education. And for me, Edu Inc has been about the practice of education rather than the business of education. And how I've seen that play out over these years now, I think we're on to two and a half years, goes quickly, is that firstly there's absolute transparency with regards fees and monies asked for, and there's not a continuous conversation that happens throughout the year. So you know what you're in for at the beginning, and at the end, that's what you've been in for. So that's the more transactional level of, of, of business and practice. But for me and for us, what's been far more important is that there's been a distinction in my own experience and my own family's experience, and everybody's right, but only partially, and this is my experience only, but this is the difference between values that are espoused and values that are lived. And for us, the values that are spoken at Edu Inc are those that are lived. We're in the practice of learning and teaching, not only for the child, but also for the parents. So I, I've been learning. I've been learning about different approaches to parenting. And I also just love, and this is something Edu Inc shared with me at the very, very first meeting we had with Gershom and, and Jackie. Was the IQ, EQ, and AQ, and what I remembered by the AQ, so you've got your IQ, that's the teaching, that's the thinking stuff, you've got your EQ, that's the feeling stuff. But actually, the tacky hits the tar with the doing stuff, and that's the application stuff, that's the accountability. I think of it as accountability quotient. And actually, for me, that is what is going to help prepare my child for the real world and the world after Edu Inc, because you can do the thinking, and you can do it in a Rolls Royce, and you can do the feeling, yeah, you can, but the actual doing where the tacky hits the tar is in the application, and then the accountability, and the consequence management, and what is a deal and what is a sanction if the deal isn't kept. And all of, this is life, this is, this is what's going to help beyond Edu Inc. You know, if it's in the afternoons and the evenings beyond Edu Inc, because life happens, or if it's after matric. This for me is, is a very, very important distinction. ### Passage: Mandy notices her daughter has stopped smiling [34:57-37:08, 398 words] Note (AI): A parent describes the gradual signs of a child's unhappiness at school and the moment she accepted that a change of school was needed. Mandy, guest [34:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2097): > before I moved Eden, I started to acknowledge that this was a bigger problem than I could control. And, you know, it was low. Took a while to notice that she didn't smile anymore. That happy laughter which used to ring throughout the house didn't happen anymore. I mean, at one stage, you know, these, these fancy private schools, they allocate you a whole twelve minutes once a term to chat to the teacher. Twelve if you're lucky. And I, in fact, stopped bothering to go. And so the teacher called me one day and said, Mandy, you've missed your, your appointment. And I, I looked at her and I said, I'm aware of that. I'm very busy. Can we do this next week? She said, absolutely not. I allocated those days for it. So I think it was exhaustion on my own part. I just said to her, you know what? I can't be bothered to make that appointment if I'm honest. She said, why? I said, because you're going to tell me for ten minutes that my child is crap. And I already know that. And I walked away. And then I thought, oh my God, the fact that I've even said that We're not in a good space here. I feel that. This is what I feel the teachers are saying. She didn't want to go to school. She hated every part of it. She stopped laughing. She stopped smiling. She started to become mean and aggressive at home. She started to refer to herself as stupid and as worthless. And you know, I fought the good fight. I kept going and I kept going and then I kept mentioning to her, I'd like to look at other schools, I'd like to look at other schools, and she refused. She wanted to stay there. And it was actually a year later, she came to me and she said, I'm ready. Please take me somewhere else. So I started the quest and somebody else recommended Edu Inc, so I went for the meeting and I liked what I saw. my initial thought was, great, these people will fix what the other school have broken and then I can send her back. And I was, Heart point to be told that we don't fix them so that the other schools can break them. That's not what we do. ### Passage: The meeting that ended Mandy's faith in the old school [37:57-40:02, 410 words] Note (AI): Mandy describes the dismissive response that made her move Eden, and her daughter's excitement on the first trial day. Mandy, guest [37:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2277): > In fact, I think the, the clincher Was when one of the heads, I said, you know, what do I do? Where do I go from here? And she flapped her hand at me across the table and said, oh God, I don't know, give her more drugs. I will never forget that day, and I knew then I was taking my child out. How do you just say to me, oh, we don't know, give her more drugs? Get a tutor. I said, I'm doing that. I'm looking at another forty grand a year alone. What did you people do with the hundred and twenty I already gave you? I knew then the conversation was over. So at the same time, Eden was now at a drink for a week, and they gave them their fancy books with the, with the colors on. I didn't think you need to reintroduce that. With all these lovely pictures. And after I fetched her from school, I went to a coffee shop, cause kid number two was doing dancing, and I needed to look for an hour with Edie. And what does the child do? She whips out her fancy colorful book that she'd got that day on day one. And showed me the maths that she did. And then before my chair, I still said to her, who are you? Since when do you ever show me anything? And since when are you ever excited? And that was the time I knew. You know, I didn't know whether or not to use your analogy, whether it was a Rolls Royce or a Beetle. I'd already figured out that option one was looking rather more like a donkey cart than I was willing to accept. And at this point in time, I didn't care whether the other one, what it was. I just knew that my kid had to go there because she smiled at me for the first time in six months. And if she's happy, you can do anything in an environment that you are happy. But you can be in the best possible place with all, she said, all the, all the toys and the bells and the whistles. If your heart is not there, she will not achieve. I was told straight to my face, your child's ADD is so bad, she's uneducatable. My child gets merit certificates for academics from Edu Inc. There's nothing wrong with that child. ### Passage: Debbie on ADHD, add-ons and a different approach [41:01-42:22, 259 words] Note (AI): Debbie explains how piling extra support on top of a large class made her son feel different, and why a smaller mainstream class suited him. Debbie, guest [41:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2461): > I do. Oliver is also ADHD, so he was finding a large classroom difficult. And their only solution was to add on extra. So he had to then have a, I think they call it the middle room, where he goes and he gets separated from his class to get extra, because they, they just needed to take some of the children out to give them the, the attention they needed. And then he had to have speech therapy, and then we had OT, and we were looking at a remedial. And ultimately, when we actually added all of that up, it was, it was eye-watering. And it was making him feel different, and stupid, and everything, all the things that come with it. And in a boys' school, all the, the other boys start to comment on it, and, and it starts to knock their self-confidence. So when we were Looking at options, the only option we were presented was remedial, but my child is smart. He's, he's got a high IQ. He just needed a different way of being taught. And that's where Edu Inc just stepped in and they fill that gap beautifully. You know, it's a, it's a mainstream, quite high pressured school, but the pressure's put on the kids in the way that they can handle it and when they, they rise to it. You bring the best out of these children, you produce the most incredible results that you don't think your child can achieve, and, and they wouldn't achieve in a big classroom. ### Passage: Mandy's kitchen moment that forced change [55:09-57:27, 421 words] Note (AI): A candid account of how family stress built up around a child's struggles at school, and of the parent's own self-examination. Mandy, guest [55:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3309): > I just, I, actually, just breakfast, I was in the kitchen and, and I was making her eat her food and she wouldn't eat her food. And this was every day, all day. And I, and I, I heard a woman shrieking, the most abominable language I've ever heard. And it was this feeling, I, I suddenly saw my kitchen from the ceiling. And I saw myself and the rictus that my face was was pulled into and I and I saw a child with utter terror and such immense sadness and it took a split second for me to realize that what I was looking at was my own home and it wasn't seven o'clock and I had used every filthy word I'd ever learned and and I I snapped back into into reality and I put what I I was doing down and I closed my mouth and I walked out the room and I knew that life could no child deserves to be spoken to like that by the woman who's supposed to love her and no woman who's supposed to try and parent nobody deserved to feel the way I did there was something so massively wrong And I didn't know what it was. And it was a soup. It was a, it was a horrible soup of so many things. You must remember that when your kid is told she has ADD, you blame yourself. What did I do wrong? What is wrong with me? We all believe that our cherubs come out utterly perfect. I can tell you now, categorically, I have the most beautiful daughters in Joburg. But then you also think that about yours. I can tell you now that you are wrong. Mine are better. it takes a while for you to realize that your children are also flawed human beings like the rest of us, but I took all of this personally. So this ended up not a journey of Eden's ADD and changing schools. This sparked a journey of my own perception of self. So here I'm trying to deal with the fact that my kid is thick and can't pass grade three. And at the same time, I'm unraveling my own issues. And the poor little onlooker on here is, is that Golden-haired little three-year-old who's watching mom turn into an animal. And that was when I knew, I don't know what needs to be changed, but I gotta rip this whole thing apart because this is not life. ### Quotes > "It's like, it's like eating a salad because mom's going to shout at you that your pants are tight." >, Mandy, guest · [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1058) > "I don't like me as a policeman, and neither do you." >, Mandy, guest · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1119) > "if you're feeling redundant as a parent and if you're feeling redundant as a teacher, it means you've done your job properly." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1498) > "the redundancy kind of stops at the ATM because I think they'll try and be the, have you as the ATM as long as they can." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1516) > "what is the point of putting our child in a Rolls Royce if actually he needs a Beetle and he'll really get a lot out of a Beetle?" >, Creina, guest · [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1578) > "Edu Inc has been about the practice of education rather than the business of education." >, Creina, guest · [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1629) > "the values that are spoken at Edu Inc are those that are lived." >, Creina, guest · [28:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1693) > "Don't put them through ten years of, of hell because you believe it's the right, it's giving them all of the, the right things because often that's, all it does is knock their confidence." >, Debbie, guest · [33:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2014) > "I just knew that my kid had to go there because she smiled at me for the first time in six months." >, Mandy, guest · [39:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2369) > "I think that one of my personal strengths is tenacity. It has a gold, but it has a shadow." >, Creina, guest · [58:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3530) > "moving your child to the right environment is never a failure." >, Debbie, guest · [63:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3804) ### Claims > "Hybrid learning is a learning space where students can be in the classroom experience, in a learning experience, either digitally or physically, and it makes no difference to that learning experience." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning design · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=158) > "Hybrid learning is synchronous, it happens immediately, and it's face-to-face teaching. Unlike online learning, which is asynchronous, where students can do the work at their own time and at their own pace, and there are certain deadlines when the work has to get done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning design · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=194) > "And what we found is that there were three elements to creating a hybrid space and making it very effective. The first was we identified that there's technology for communication. The second thing we identified is technology for work. And the most important is we identified technological behaviors." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning design · [04:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=251) > "So that second monitor actually moved to the back of the classroom with a webcam on it that allows the students at home to be the student at the back of the class viewing the entire class situation," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning design · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=298) > "The biggest challenge in the communication was actually the sound. Because the assumption is that a webcam can do that, but we have to have a boom mic in the classroom to generate spontaneous conversation." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning design · [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=336) > "And another thing that we do to get your mindset right is that the kids wear their school uniform if they are digitally in class, because you're still in class, you just might not be physically in the classroom, you're still attending class." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=407) > "My son moved to Edu Inc last year because he thrives in a small class. We found that the large class in the large private school wasn't working for him," >, Debbie, guest · topic: Small class sizes · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=451) > "My other child, who's at the larger private school, gets what I guess you could refer to as a work dump. So we pick up a pack of work at the beginning of the week. He has one or two or three Zoom calls a week for half an hour, and that's the extent of their face-to-face teaching." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Hybrid learning design · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=479) > "And even when COVID's finished, I don't want our students to lose the skills that they've learnt in doing this. It is unlikely that even at university level that kids are going to be one hundred percent in class." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=571) > "Well, interestingly, Nedbank has just announced that they're going pretty much home. You can go in when you need to, but their entire banking, other than the customer-facing people, are going to be working from home." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=591) > "And I think that's, you know, one of the elements of difference that makes a difference for me is the personalized approach. You know, seeing an individual as a unique individual and what goes with that," >, Creina, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=722) > "It's about them being able to be individuals in a safe space and explore the different phases and things that they're going through. So it's about not having to fit into a box and being forced to be something that they're not." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=772) > "It certainly has been an advantage in the current circumstances where Edu Inc's class size of ten students has definitely played a role in that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small class sizes · [13:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=839) > "I think he was just getting lost in the bigger classroom. He was being left behind, and I don't know that in a bigger class that a teacher can keep an eye on every child." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Small class sizes · [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=876) > "So my son is, is excellent at some things and he battles in others and the teachers know him well, they know where they need to step in and assist him and when they can let him run with something." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Small class sizes · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=914) > "You don't sit in front of your laptop and do what you need to do and learn these skills in case you get punished, because that, that does nothing." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1050) > "How you work with this has got to be your decision. I'm not going to police it. I'm not going to monitor it." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [17:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1079) > "one of the things when I was thinking about what's worked with the, the online program with Edu Inc is most certainly the routine. I think children need routine." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1273) > "And the one time he was not online when he should have been, I was notified. So there is a systemic approach at Edu Inc that we are all aligned." >, Creina, guest · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1384) > "And I think that if you're feeling redundant as a parent and if you're feeling redundant as a teacher, it means you've done your job properly." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Self-discipline and routine · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1498) > "Eventually, my husband turned around to me and said, what is the point of putting our child in a Rolls Royce if actually he needs a Beetle and he'll really get a lot out of a Beetle?" >, Creina, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1575) > "what started standing out for me was a generosity of spirit and time that for me started making a distinction between what I would call the practice of education versus the business of education." >, Creina, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [26:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1610) > "firstly there's absolute transparency with regards fees and monies asked for, and there's not a continuous conversation that happens throughout the year." >, Creina, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1645) > "so you've got your IQ, that's the teaching, that's the thinking stuff, you've got your EQ, that's the feeling stuff. But actually, the tacky hits the tar with the doing stuff, and that's the application stuff, that's the accountability." >, Creina, guest · topic: IQ, EQ and AQ · [28:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1724) > "But if you've got a kid who has no self-con, confidence or sense of himself in a robotics class or a whatever, you can't access these things." >, Creina, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [30:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1813) > "As soon as you show an interest in another person, you're validating them and you're seeing them and they are going to be heard." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [31:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1897) > "almost every time I've been on the campus, the older boys are greeting him and saying goodbye and saying let's play soccer tomorrow." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Social life at school · [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=1939) > "The best thing you can do for your children is put them in the environment that makes them blossom and gives them the, the confidence they need because that's what life's all about." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2041) > "She didn't want to go to school. She hated every part of it. She stopped laughing. She stopped smiling. She started to become mean and aggressive at home. She started to refer to herself as stupid and as worthless." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Warning signs of unhappiness · [36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2171) > "she flapped her hand at me across the table and said, oh God, I don't know, give her more drugs. I will never forget that day, and I knew then I was taking my child out." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Warning signs of unhappiness · [38:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2286) > "I was told straight to my face, your child's ADD is so bad, she's uneducatable. My child gets merit certificates for academics from Edu Inc." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [39:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2389) > "And, you know, I describe Edu Inc as a mainstream school that is small. Because we are doing exactly the same as the big mainstream schools." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small class sizes · [40:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2449) > "So when we were Looking at options, the only option we were presented was remedial, but my child is smart. He's, he's got a high IQ. He just needed a different way of being taught." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2507) > "one of the biggest questions that I get from prospective parents is, you're a small school, you've followed a hundred students, currently you're sitting at seventy-five." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Social life at school · [42:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2572) > "The way I possibly I could look at it is that she had a pool of seventy kids to pick the ones she liked the most. Here the pool was smaller. It doesn't mean that the ones, the four she's picked at Edu Inc are less marvelous." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Social life at school · [43:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2619) > "I think it's also important to remember that your children don't have to be at the same school and in the same class with their friends incessantly." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Social life at school · [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2675) > "But I just want to say, don't ever let something like that stop you from moving your child to the right school for them. It's not a valid Issue." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Social life at school · [49:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=2947) > "the joy of a full week's trial is it takes the, the huge anxiety out of that first day when you're, when you're really starting, cause, you know, you're going for a week, so you can handle that." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Trial week · [52:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3145) > "I make two promises to the students, and I think you'll all remember those promises, because I make them to the parents as well, that I'll always be honest," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [53:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3203) > "And the second promise I make is that they're going to work harder than they've ever worked in their lives. And it's not just academically, it's on themselves as people." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [53:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3225) > "And I think the moment I acknowledged that something was wrong, individual things started to come to mind. That's when I started to notice nobody smiled anymore." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Warning signs of unhappiness · [57:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3448) > "I think that one of my personal strengths is tenacity. It has a gold, but it has a shadow. And I think it was my tenacity that kept my son where he was before for too long." >, Creina, guest · topic: Warning signs of unhappiness · [58:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3530) > "don't get Pulled into the, it should have, could have, if we just stick it out, it's going to get better. Because for some children it doesn't, and there's no shame in moving your child and putting them in the right place." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [59:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3592) > "It was a lot easier than I anticipated. It's got a lot to do with our own conditioning." >, Mandy, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [60:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3642) > "And then moving your child to the right environment is never a failure. Your failure as a parent is when you leave them in the, in the wrong place where they don't thrive." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [63:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3803) > "Oliver's got this fabulous engineering type brain and spends as much time as he can in the robotics lab and on the 3D printer, and it's not something his previous school could provide for him." >, Debbie, guest · topic: Choosing the right school · [63:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3833) > "and it is the current school systems and designs were for crowd control, getting kids off the street and preparing them for What the workplace and the marketplace needed those students to be." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [64:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3896) > "I think it's an opportunity to put your educational journey on the shelf and examine your child's educational journey, which is independent from yours." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Choosing the right school · [66:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1083678_high.mp3#t=3971) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Today we go deep! In a sometimes very emotional conversation about why parents move their children to a new school. What are the reasons? The many challenges? The prejudices and fears. What concerns led them to change? And what advice do they give to others whose children are just not loving school? Join Mandy, Creina and Debbie in conversation with Edu Inc Headmaster, Gershom Aitchison, and discover that you (and your child) are not alone. Come and see our school for yourself · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google · Transcription, PDF (153.4 KB) ## Control what you can - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-07-14-control-what-you-can/ - Date: 2021-07-14 (as at 2021-07-14) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Controlling what you can, Exam stress and eustress, Media and anxiety, Online exam invigilation, Parenting through unrest, Community resilience - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1072972 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison, who run Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, answer an interviewer's questions during July 2021 unrest and a COVID lockdown extension. Jacqueline separates normal exam stress (eustress) from the wider stress families cannot fully control, and gives advice on news, phone groups and conversations at home. Gershom argues for critical thinking about sensational media and explains why the school's exams will be written and invigilated online before a return to campus. Both close by treating the exam session as a sign of stability and praising the community's resilience. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline Aitchison argues families should separate what they can control, such as exam preparation, from bigger stresses they cannot fully control. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=98) [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=309) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=335) [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=345)) - She describes pre-exam anxiety as eustress, normal and healthy, which parents and teachers should help children handle rather than remove. ([02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=123) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=142) [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=145) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166)) - She suggests stress may be plateauing higher than usual this year because the normal trough after the exam peak is not being reached. ([03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=195)) - Children pick up adults' reactions to news and group messages without context, so adults should watch what they show and say at home. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=214) [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=236) [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=274)) - Gershom Aitchison argues critical thinking means shutting off media sensationalism, and both hosts endorse muting busy groups to protect mental health. ([06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=371) [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=378) [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=390) [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=409) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=437)) - Gershom explains exams will be online because the government's return date falls mid-exam session and mixed home and campus invigilation would be overcomplicated. ([08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488) [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=508) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=544)) - Both hosts present the ability to run a valid IEB exam session amid COVID and unrest as evidence of community stability and resilience. ([11:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=692) [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=700) [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=730) [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=838)) **Lessons** - Jacqueline Aitchison advises treating pre-exam nerves as an opportunity to teach children to cope with stress, not something to eliminate. ([02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166)) - She advises limiting 24-hour news exposure and being aware of body-language reactions to phone messages that children may see out of context. ([03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=236) [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=274)) - She recommends reassuring children about home safety and giving them forums to express anxieties so adults can provide context. ([04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=290) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=335)) - Both hosts suggest switching off or deleting overly active group messages is survival, not negligence. ([06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=409) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=437)) - Gershom Aitchison suggests parents who invigilate exams gain insight into how their children write exams. ([09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=588)) **Who it's for:** Parents and students at Edu Inc, and other South African parents, facing exams during the July 2021 unrest and COVID lockdown, who want guidance on managing stress at home and practical details of how online exam invigilation will work. **Facts stated in the episode** - The interviewer states all teachers and staff of the school had been vaccinated by July 2021. ([00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=24)) - The amended return-to-school date announced by President Cyril Ramaphosa was 26 July, in the middle of the exam session. ([08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488)) - Students were planned to return to campus from 2 to 6 August, the last week of term. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=508)) - The school held its first home-based exam session with parent invigilation in July 2020, described as successful. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=565) [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=574)) - Gershom Aitchison says the school was envisioned about fifteen years ago. ([13:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=781)) - Jacqueline Aitchison says the exam session is valid at the level of an IEB examination. ([12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=730)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is it bad for my child to feel anxious before exams?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says pre-exam anxiety is normal eustress that a serious student should feel, and that it is not a parent's or teacher's job to remove it but to teach children to cope with it. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=142) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166)) **Q: How can I stop news about unrest from stressing my kids?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison advises being aware of 24-hour news channels, phone-group reactions and adult conversations children overhear, and talking with children about the safety precautions the family takes. ([03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=236) [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=274) [04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=290)) **Q: Is it okay to mute busy WhatsApp or community groups during a crisis?** A: Gershom Aitchison says he switches off the most active groups or deletes messages that add to his anxiety; Jacqueline says this is not negligent but survival. ([06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=409) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=437)) **Q: Why is Edu Inc writing its July 2021 exams online?** A: Gershom Aitchison says the government's 26 July return date fell mid-exam session, and invigilating some students at home and some on campus would be overcomplicated, so everyone writes from home. ([08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=544)) **Q: When do Edu Inc students return to campus after the July 2021 exams?** A: Gershom Aitchison says students plan to return in the last week of term, 2 to 6 August, to review exams together on campus. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=508)) **Q: How does Edu Inc keep online exams honest?** A: Parents who invigilate fill in an integrity form, teachers invigilate online, students sign a declaration after each exam, and some parents are asked to set up a second webcam showing screen and face. ([10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=613) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=625) [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=638)) **Q: Why does Edu Inc want parents to invigilate exams at home?** A: Gershom Aitchison says parent invigilation maintains exam integrity and gives parents insight into how their children write exams. ([09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=588)) **Q: What does 'Edu Inc tough' mean?** A: Gershom Aitchison, quoting an alumnus, says it is about knowing what has to get done, resilience, grit and getting the job done. ([13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=838) [14:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=840)) ### Passage: Normal exam stress versus unhealthy stress [02:03-02:59, 182 words] Note (AI): Mrs. Aitchison explains the rollercoaster of the academic year and why pre-exam anxiety is eustress that parents should help children handle rather than remove. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=123): > And, you know, often we talk to the children and the parents about normal stresses that a child would experience during an academic year, for example. Something, we speak about the roller coaster. We know that during the academic year that we're going to have periods where that roller coaster is going up the hill, and that's generally as we're moving into an exam session. And that's not necessarily unhealthy stress. Remember, that's eustress. It's stress that you should be feeling if you are serious about your studies and if you want to perform well. It's entirely normal and natural to feel that anxiety growing slightly before an exam session. You know that you're going to go into that exam, you're going to feel butterflies in your stomach, you're going to have sweaty palms, that sort of thing. That's normal stress. And it is most certainly not the job of a parent or a teacher to remove that stress from a child. That's our opportunity to teach children how to cope with stress and how to handle stress. So that's normal stress. ### Passage: What children absorb at home during unrest [03:34-06:10, 510 words] Note (AI): Practical guidance on news channels, community-group notifications, adult conversations and giving children forums to voice fears, framed around what families can control. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=214): > this is when we're aware of what's going on in our homes around us, because we are stuck at home between COVID and the protests and everything that's going on, we are stuck at home more than we would normally be. Right now, we're not even going to fill the car with fuel, we're not going to the shops. So we're probably feeling more confinement. We're probably feeling a little bit of cabin fever at times. And we need to be aware of things like having a 24-hour news channel on, that when we do take a break from our work, we're still seeing images of violence and protests, and we're still hearing captions and, you know, news speak about what's going on, which is not necessarily contextualized because we've just come in maybe on the back end of a news report. We need to be aware of the fact that we're all on community groups at the moment, so our phones are pinging more than normal, and we're having a, there's a body language reaction that our children might be noticing, you know, where we shake our heads or our head goes down in our hands, or we make a comment on that. Our children are picking up on all of this, and generally it's out of context because they haven't read the message. They don't know why you've reacted that way. We need to be aware of the conversations as adults that children might be overhearing in the household, because that's all going to add to their stress. More than ever, it's important that we're having conversations with our children and we're reinforcing what we are doing to stay safe. We're reminding them that they are in a home that is safe and that we do take precautions. We have security companies and all this sort of thing that keeps us safe. These are the things we can control, and so we do control. We most certainly haven't told the students not to post on their class groups about what's going on, because we do want to have conversations with them. They have been conversing during their classes. The teachers have been very good at allowing space and time in the classroom to voice concerns, to voice fears, and we really need to just keep that sort of thing going. Give the kids forums and platforms to express their anxieties so that we can provide context for them, and we can keep reminding them about what we can control, which is our exam work. We're in complete control of how much work we do and how much preparation we do for our own exams, and just reminding them where we can control the other bigger issues. So we're not going to, you know, overpost our videos and pictures and memes and that about what's going on, because that can be quite overwhelming. We're not going to say no, but we're going to be very careful about What's going on in that space. I think that's really, really important. ### Passage: Media sensationalism and switching groups off [06:11-07:24, 227 words] Note (AI): Both hosts argue for critical thinking about media and for muting busy groups as a legitimate way to manage anxiety. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=371): > I think that in echoing what Mrs. Aitchison is saying, that it's a great opportunity for us to exercise our critical thinking. And part of critical thinking is shutting off the sensationalism of the media. The media is the opposite of the Facebook life, where everything seems to be rosy and peachy and full of highlights. The media always focuses on the worst of the worst, because that's what sells. So as Mrs. Aitchison said, you share ideas and thoughts with people, but certainly don't spam the groups and share the sensationalistic videos that are going around on social media. They're definitely contributing to the anxiety. And personally, I find myself on the different groups, just actually switching some of them off, especially the groups that are the most active, or just deleting some of those messages that I feel are just contributing to my own personal anxiety. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=422): > You know, the reality of the situation is that we're in it and we need to get through it. So we need to do whatever we have to do to make sure that we get through it intact. And that means being very, very cognizant of what we can handle and what we can't. So it's not negligent to be switching some of those groups off. It's actually just, it's survival at this point. It's keeping us all sane. ### Passage: How the July online exam session will run [08:08-11:17, 522 words] Note (AI): Sets out the exam dates, why exams are held online, parent and teacher invigilation, integrity forms, declarations and the second webcam request. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488): > So the amended dates of coming back to school was mentioned by President Cyril Ramaphosa was the 26th of July, and that falls smack bang in the middle of our exam session. And part of what we would like to do is just keep some continuity going and some stability in our students' lives. And what we're going to do is we are going to do our exams online this term, with the view of coming back in the last week of the term being the 2nd of August to the 6th of August. So that at least we end the term with everybody together, everybody at school, on campus again, and have that nice on-campus vibe while we review the exams and prepare ourselves for the winter holiday that's coming. Another consideration is that Edu Inc has spent a lot of time and resources on creating hybrid classrooms, and while they work very effectively in the teaching process, it might be overcomplicated to invigilate some students at home and some students on campus while writing the exams, and given that some students are still going to be at home during the exam session for COVID-related issues, it's easier for us and the teachers to invigilate everybody at home, and we had a successful exam session last year in July, and I'm looking forward to having another successful exam session in the same fashion this year. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=574): > So last July, exams at home with parents invigilating was a first try. A year later, you've got some experience, you've got some ideas of what you want to improve. What can parents expect from this exam session? Gershom Aitchison, host [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=588): > Ideally, we would like the parents to invigilate the exams. And that is because it maintains the integrity of the exam, and more importantly, it gives the parents an insight into how their students write their exams, and I think there's great value in that. But we do recognize that their parents are not able to do that, and we do realize that their parents are working, and that's fine, and we've got two mechanisms that we have in place. One for the parents invigilating, there's a form that they fill in verifying the integrity of the exam, and the second one is for the online invigilation by the teacher. The students after each exam will complete a declaration of the authenticity and validity of their exam that they have to sign. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [10:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=635): > In some instances, just to assist with this whole process, we have requested that parents set up an additional webcam. That, allow the teacher to see the child's screens as well as the child's face. So you're getting the two different angles at the same time. So don't be surprised if that request comes through. It's also just to assist us with that invigilation process and make sure that that integrity is retained. Gershom Aitchison, host [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=662): > And certainly there are one or two students who do not do online very well, and in that case, we might ask the parents specifically to have an adult invigilating the exam session to make sure that it does happen properly without a hitch. ### Passage: Exams as a sign of stability and pride [11:32-14:22, 503 words] Note (AI): The hosts frame holding a valid IEB exam session amid COVID and unrest as evidence of community stability and introduce the idea of 'Edu Inc tough'. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [11:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=692): > They definitely are, Gavin, and I'm so glad you said that because, and I say this realizing that half the students will be rolling their eyes as I do say it, but the fact that our students are actually writing exams at the moment amid all of this is such a positive thing. It highlights the level of stability that our kids are fortunate enough to have in their lives. The level of commitment that is displayed, that is being displayed all the time from our staff, from our parents, from our edging community as a whole, Is really summed up in the fact that at this stage of COVID, at this stage of what's happening in our country, we can actually administer an examination session that is completely valid and has all the integrity that it needs to have at the level of an IEB examination. I think it's a massively positive sign, and I think that every single one of us needs to give ourselves a huge pat on the back that we have maintained this for our children over such a long period of time. I, I, I really think it's a huge, huge thumbs up for the whole Edu Inc community. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=761): > As most of the parents and students know, Mrs. Aitchison and myself have walked a very different path to most school owners, headmasters and headmistresses. We've had a very interesting life and have had very interesting experiences on our journey. This is certainly one to add as another chapter to that, and it's certainly not something that we thought we would have to experience and make decisions about when we're envisioning the school and what the school would look like fifteen years ago. And I must say, Gavin, I'm very proud of the Edu Inc community, my teachers, and how hard they're working to make sure that teaching and school feels normal. I'm very proud of the students for rocking up in class every day and doing what they need to do amidst all of this chaos. I'm very proud of the alumni who are supporting the school, even though they're not in the school anymore, and sending great messages of encouragement. And I'm very proud of the parents who are supporting the school, the teachers, their students, their kids, to make sure that education is as uninterrupted as possible during this time. I'm very proud that as a community, we're still at school, that we've got exams coming. And I'm very proud that the Edu Inc students are learning how to become, in the words of one of our alumni, Edu Inc tough. That's about knowing what has to get done, about resilience, about grit, doing what needs to get done, getting the job done. So thank you all for doing what needs to happen, and I look forward to seeing what the end of this term looks like. And I know you're going to do well in the exams, because I know you know how to work hard. Thank you. ### Quotes > "Little did I think that we'd be talking about looting and being safe in another way other than just being safe with COVID." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=70) > "Remember, that's eustress. It's stress that you should be feeling if you are serious about your studies" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=145) > "And it is most certainly not the job of a parent or a teacher to remove that stress from a child." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166) > "These are the things we can control, and so we do control." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=309) > "The media always focuses on the worst of the worst, because that's what sells." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=390) > "It's actually just, it's survival at this point. It's keeping us all sane." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=441) > "I think that every single one of us needs to give ourselves a huge pat on the back that we have maintained this for our children over such a long period of time." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=744) > "in the words of one of our alumni, Edu Inc tough. That's about knowing what has to get done, about resilience, about grit," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [14:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=840) > "And I know you're going to do well in the exams, because I know you know how to work hard." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=857) ### Claims > "On the one hand, all the teachers and staff of the school have now been vaccinated, and our constitutional court is functioning." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Parenting through unrest · [00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=24) > "let's differentiate between what we can control right now and what we can't control. Because even though the stress levels are really high, the fact of the matter is some of these stresses are still entirely normal, and that would be the exams." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Controlling what you can · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=98) > "And that's not necessarily unhealthy stress. Remember, that's eustress. It's stress that you should be feeling if you are serious about your studies and if you want to perform well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam stress and eustress · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=142) > "And it is most certainly not the job of a parent or a teacher to remove that stress from a child. That's our opportunity to teach children how to cope with stress and how to handle stress." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam stress and eustress · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=166) > "maybe coming down off that rollercoaster peak, maybe we're just not getting back down off the trough to the level that we normally do. Maybe that's where our stress is plateauing somewhat at a higher level than normal." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam stress and eustress · [03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=195) > "And we need to be aware of things like having a 24-hour news channel on, that when we do take a break from our work, we're still seeing images of violence and protests," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Media and anxiety · [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=236) > "Our children are picking up on all of this, and generally it's out of context because they haven't read the message. They don't know why you've reacted that way." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting through unrest · [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=274) > "More than ever, it's important that we're having conversations with our children and we're reinforcing what we are doing to stay safe. We're reminding them that they are in a home that is safe and that we do take precautions." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting through unrest · [04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=290) > "The teachers have been very good at allowing space and time in the classroom to voice concerns, to voice fears, and we really need to just keep that sort of thing going." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parenting through unrest · [05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=324) > "Give the kids forums and platforms to express their anxieties so that we can provide context for them, and we can keep reminding them about what we can control, which is our exam work." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Controlling what you can · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=335) > "We're in complete control of how much work we do and how much preparation we do for our own exams," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Controlling what you can · [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=345) > "part of critical thinking is shutting off the sensationalism of the media. The media is the opposite of the Facebook life, where everything seems to be rosy and peachy and full of highlights." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Media and anxiety · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=378) > "personally, I find myself on the different groups, just actually switching some of them off, especially the groups that are the most active, or just deleting some of those messages that I feel are just contributing to my own personal anxiety." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Media and anxiety · [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=409) > "So it's not negligent to be switching some of those groups off. It's actually just, it's survival at this point. It's keeping us all sane." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Media and anxiety · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=437) > "we always make the decision in the best interest of our learners and the safety of our community." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=473) > "So the amended dates of coming back to school was mentioned by President Cyril Ramaphosa was the 26th of July, and that falls smack bang in the middle of our exam session." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=488) > "what we're going to do is we are going to do our exams online this term, with the view of coming back in the last week of the term being the 2nd of August to the 6th of August." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=508) > "it might be overcomplicated to invigilate some students at home and some students on campus while writing the exams, and given that some students are still going to be at home during the exam session for COVID-related issues, it's easier for us and the teachers to invigilate everybody at home," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=544) > "we had a successful exam session last year in July, and I'm looking forward to having another successful exam session in the same fashion this year." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=565) > "So last July, exams at home with parents invigilating was a first try." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Online exam invigilation · [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=574) > "Ideally, we would like the parents to invigilate the exams. And that is because it maintains the integrity of the exam, and more importantly, it gives the parents an insight into how their students write their exams," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=588) > "One for the parents invigilating, there's a form that they fill in verifying the integrity of the exam, and the second one is for the online invigilation by the teacher." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [10:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=613) > "The students after each exam will complete a declaration of the authenticity and validity of their exam that they have to sign." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=625) > "we have requested that parents set up an additional webcam. That, allow the teacher to see the child's screens as well as the child's face." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [10:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=638) > "there are one or two students who do not do online very well, and in that case, we might ask the parents specifically to have an adult invigilating the exam session" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=662) > "the fact that our students are actually writing exams at the moment amid all of this is such a positive thing. It highlights the level of stability that our kids are fortunate enough to have in their lives." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Community resilience · [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=700) > "we can actually administer an examination session that is completely valid and has all the integrity that it needs to have at the level of an IEB examination." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online exam invigilation · [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=730) > "Mrs. Aitchison and myself have walked a very different path to most school owners, headmasters and headmistresses. We've had a very interesting life and have had very interesting experiences on our journey." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Community resilience · [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=763) > "it's certainly not something that we thought we would have to experience and make decisions about when we're envisioning the school and what the school would look like fifteen years ago." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Community resilience · [13:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=781) > "I'm very proud of the alumni who are supporting the school, even though they're not in the school anymore, and sending great messages of encouragement." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Community resilience · [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=809) > "the Edu Inc students are learning how to become, in the words of one of our alumni, Edu Inc tough. That's about knowing what has to get done, about resilience, about grit, doing what needs to get done, getting the job done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Community resilience · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1072972_high.mp3#t=838) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) There's an ancient Chinese curse along the lines of "may you live in interesting times." Well, given the rollercoaster SA has been through these past few weeks, we're certainly in interesting times. Today Mr. and Mrs. Aitchison help you put things in perspective and remind us all to focus on controlling what we can. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google · Transcription, PDF (104.7 KB) ## Extended schooling from home - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-07-02-extended-schooling-from-home/ - Date: 2021-07-02 (as at 2021-07-02) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: COVID-19 school closure dates, ISASA and government directives, Online learning behaviour, Exam timetable changes, Mandela Day and community projects, Clubs during lockdown, Wellbeing in the third wave - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1067883 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short community update from Edu Inc, a mainstream independent IEB school in Fourways, Johannesburg, during South Africa's COVID-19 third wave. Hosts Jacqueline and Gershom Aitchison explain how government closure directives reach independent schools through gazetting and ISASA's interpretation. They set out the school's dates: campus closed from 2 July, teachers back on 14 July, learners back on 19 July, with Grade 10 and 11 exams adjusted and matric block teaching moved. Gershom reviews expected behaviour in online classes. Both describe the Mandela Day food drive, the plastic bottle collection and clubs that continue online. Jacqueline closes with students' advice on staying positive. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline Aitchison says presidential and ministerial directives are aimed at public schools, so Edu Inc waits for gazetting and ISASA's interpretation before acting. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=101) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=105) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=126)) - She notes that ambiguous wording, two weeks versus a 19 July reopening, is why independent schools' return dates can differ from one another. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=101) [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=145) [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=192) [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=211)) - Edu Inc chose 19 July for learners in solidarity with ISASA's plea to follow government, even though this affects some exam timetables. ([03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=231) [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=246) [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=271)) - Gershom Aitchison says the school can move from classes on campus to classes from home with one WhatsApp call, and that students have shown it works. ([06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=372) [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=373) [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=387)) - He names the disruptions in online classes (lateness, missing links, other tabs, music) and asks students to be present and contribute. ([05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=357) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=399) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=430) [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=448)) - The term's community projects continue off campus: a dry-goods food drive for Mandela Day led by the two youngest pupils, and a plastic bottle collection. ([07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=477) [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=490) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=523) [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=535)) - Jacqueline Aitchison relays students' advice to do something different each day away from the desk, and to focus on what can be controlled. ([09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=584) [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=608) [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=612) [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=634)) **Lessons** - Jacqueline Aitchison advises parents not to act on a presidential announcement alone. Independent schools wait for the gazette and ISASA's reading of it. ([01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=105) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=126)) - Gershom Aitchison asks students who struggle to get organised for online classes to ask classmates or teachers for help. ([06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=399) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=412)) - He argues that open tabs, videos, chats and music during class disrupt learning for everyone. ([07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=430) [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=448)) - Students told Jacqueline Aitchison that a daily activity away from the desk, such as baking, music or the garden, helps them cope. ([10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=608) [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=612)) - Jacqueline Aitchison says safety comes first, and asks the community to focus deliberately on what it can control. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=634) [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=644)) **Who it's for:** Parents, learners and staff of Edu Inc who need the July 2021 campus dates and exam changes. It is also useful to anyone curious how an independent South African school interprets government COVID-19 directives and runs classes online. **Facts stated in the episode** - The directives required independent schools to close for contact classes from Wednesday 30 June 2021. ([02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=154) [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=192)) - Staff could be on campus until close of business on 2 July, after which the campus closed completely. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=170)) - Edu Inc teachers return to campus on Wednesday 14 July; learners return on Monday 19 July. ([04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=246)) - The directives' reopening date of 19 July is actually two and a half weeks after 30 June, not two weeks. ([03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=192)) - The majority of Edu Inc's teaching staff had been vaccinated; the school was pushing for non-academic staff to follow. ([00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=52)) - The Mandela Day dry-goods drive is led by Christian and Oliver, the school's two youngest members. ([08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=535)) - The TED-Ed club and the Dungeons and Dragons club continue online. ([09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=563)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When do Edu Inc learners go back to campus after the July 2021 closure?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says learners return on Monday 19 July. Staff return on Wednesday 14 July, and the campus closes completely from close of business on 2 July. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=170) [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=231) [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=246)) **Q: Why might my other child's private school reopen on a different date?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says the directives were ambiguous: they said close for two weeks from 30 June, then said reopen from 19 July. Independent schools therefore interpret them differently. ([02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=145) [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=192) [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=211)) **Q: Why did Edu Inc pick 19 July rather than an earlier date?** A: ISASA asked independent schools to abide by what government asked. Edu Inc followed that request for the sake of solidarity, even though it affects some exam timetables. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=271)) **Q: Will the closure change the exam timetables?** A: The Grade 10 and 11 timetable will be tweaked, and a new one will follow. The Grade 4 to 9 timetable is unchanged. Grade 12 block teaching on campus moves to 19 July. ([04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=293) [05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=306) [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=315)) **Q: Can parents collect textbooks from campus during the closure?** A: No. Jacqueline Aitchison says that from close of business on 2 July the campus is unavailable to everyone, including parents fetching textbooks. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=170) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=240)) **Q: What behaviour is expected from students in online classes?** A: Gershom Aitchison asks students to be on time, have their links and computers ready, avoid other tabs, videos, chats and music, pay attention, contribute and get the work done. ([05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=357) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=399) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=430) [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=448)) **Q: Is the Mandela Day food drive still happening if school is closed?** A: Yes. Dry goods are collected at home and brought in on 19 July. The drive is led by Christian and Oliver, the school's two youngest members. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=490) [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=535)) **Q: How can students cope with the stress of the third wave?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison passes on students' advice to do something different every day away from the desk, such as baking, music or the garden, and to focus on what can be controlled. ([09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=584) [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=612) [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=634)) ### Passage: How independent schools read government closure directives [01:41-03:50, 367 words] Note (AI): Explains why presidential and ministerial announcements do not apply directly to independent schools, and why return dates can differ between private schools. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=101): > I think a good departure point for this would be to just remind people that when we hear directives from the president in one of his addresses, Or from our Education Minister when she speaks, they are talking to the vast majority of public schools out there. They are generally speaking to the hundreds of thousands of, of public school learners. They are not necessarily speaking to the far smaller number of independent schools and their learners. So we always have to wait for the information that they discuss in these meetings to be gazetted, first of all, and then we also, after the information has been gazetted, we wait for ISASA to interpret that information specifically for private schools in regards to how that applies to us. There's often ambiguity in these directives because of various issues with wording, like we saw in January and we are seeing this time around again. According to the directives we've received, the campus needed to be closed for contact classes from the 30th of June. We were schooling from home already, so that's great. That doesn't necessarily change anything from us. What it does change is that staff are allowed to be on campus until the end of business today, the 2nd of July. After that, we have to close the campus completely, so any teachers needing anything from the campus, today is D-Day for that. Then going forward is where a little bit of ambiguity comes into play, because the directives say, first of all, that independent schools must close for contact classes for a period of two weeks from Wednesday, the 30th of June. And then the very next point says that the reopening of schools for learners and school staff must occur from Monday the 19th of July, which is actually two and a half weeks. And this is why sometimes we see independent schools making decisions that are slightly different to each other, or you might be in an instance where a decision that Edu Inc has made with regards to when children return to school might be different to that of a sibling's independent school if they're at one of the other local private schools. ### Passage: Edu Inc's campus closure and return dates [03:51-05:30, 315 words] Note (AI): Sets out the concrete dates for staff and learners, the reason for choosing 19 July, and the effect on each grade's exams. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=231): > So what does it mean for Edu Inc specifically? As I've said, the campus is closed. From the close of business today, the campus will not be available to anyone. Parents will not be able to pop onto campus to fetch a textbook. That option will not be available to you. We will be opening the campus for teachers on the 14th of July. So Wednesday, the 14th of July, the staff, all staff will be back on the campus. However, the learners will only be returning to the campus on the 19th. The reason we've decided that it's the 19th for the learners, despite the fact that this does have an implication for some of the grades on exam timetables, for example, is that ISASA has, has sent out a plea to the independent schools to please abide by what the government has asked us to do. So for the sake of solidarity, that is exactly what we are going to do. So to remind you, staff will be back on campus from Wednesday the 14th, but the learners will only be returning on Monday the 19th. So what does that mean for the learners? There is an impact on this for the grade 10 and 11 exams. That exam timetable is going to have to be tweaked a little, and we will give that new updated timetable to you as soon as we have finalized it. Luckily, it does not affect the grade 4 to 9 exam timetable. There will be no changes there. You'll just come back to school on the 19th. Grade 12s, this affects you as well. We were due to start your block teaching on Wednesday, the 14th of July, so that will also be pushed back, and your block teaching on campus will start on the 19th of July. Monday, the 19th of July, metric block teaching begins. ### Passage: Reminders on behaviour in online classes [05:57-07:56, 392 words] Note (AI): Gershom Aitchison lists what is working in online classes, what disrupts learning, and what he asks of students. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=357): > This is not our first time at the rodeo, but I'm certain some bad behaviors come back in or new habits, appear. What are the reminders you have for everybody on the three key behaviors? Gershom Aitchison, host [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=367): > I must applaud the students of Edu Inc and the teachers and the faculty. I've always boasted that with one WhatsApp call, we can go from schooling face-to-face on campus to schooling face-to-face from home, and you guys have definitely demonstrated that you can do this very, very well. I'd like to say that everybody is really playing ball. Everybody's getting to class on time, everybody's doing the work that's assigned to them, everyone's trying to stay positive, everyone's engaging in the classes, everyone's wearing their school uniforms. But as always, in a society and in a group of people, there are one or two people that create frustration because they can't find the meeting link, or they haven't switched their computer on in enough time to check that it's updated. And I'm appealing to the one or two students that are not getting organized, that if you need help to get organized, please reach out to your classmates or to your teachers to assist you. Let's work on those organizational skills so that it's a pleasant and positive learning experience for everybody online. Some of the other things that the teachers are experiencing and some of the students are experiencing are when their peers and classmates are late for class, when they have other tabs open and they are watching videos or engaging in chats, or they're listening to music, and this is very disruptive to the learning process. They are not paying attention, engaging in the class, when the teacher asks them questions, they don't know how to answer it, and I'm imploring you all to be present in the class, to make sure that you are paying attention and contributing in a meaningful way, and that you're getting the work done. We know how to do this. We've all done it before, so let's keep doing it. We do it very, very well. Guys, well done. It's fantastic, the effort that you're doing, and we're having a great opportunity to entrench and reinforce the online skills that we are going to use in the world moving forward. So thank you very much for that. ### Passage: Term projects and clubs continuing off campus [07:57-09:43, 349 words] Note (AI): Covers the Mandela Day dry-goods drive, the plastic bottle collection, the students leading them, and which clubs continue online. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=477): > In addition to schooling from home, there's still a whole lot of other things that are going on off campus. What are this term's projects? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=484): > Well, we're still continuing with the two big projects that we were running, one of which is Mandela Day. Even though we are not going to be on campus during Mandela Day now, we will continue with that food drive. just a reminder that that food drive is dry goods. if you could just be collecting those at home, we'll get all of those together on Monday the nineteenth of July, and we'll arrange for a handover probably in the assembly following that Monday, the first assembly after that Monday. It's still an important project. Everybody's very accommodating about the fact that COVID is with us, so we can't necessarily do things on the days of the event itself. The second project that continues is the plastic bottle collection. Again, please keep collecting your plastic bottles, and we'll get them from you on Monday the nineteenth of July. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=533): > I'd also like to emphasize that the Mandela Day project of Collecting dry food goods or preserved food goods for, the charity is being driven by Christian and Oliver, the two youngest members of our school, and it's a great opportunity for them to learn how to give back to the community and drive a project of this scale. So please support them. They are very passionate about doing this project, and I think it's teaching them some great skills in engaging in their community. The great news is that some of the clubs are still continuing. I know Mrs. Aitchison is still doing her TED-Ed club and preparing the last couple of students for their TED videos. The Dungeons and Dragons club is still going ahead, as we can do that online, and I know that the teachers are communicating with their clubs so that they can see if there's a way for them to actually just connect outside of school and, keep that connection going and that vibe going that the clubs have created. ### Passage: Staying positive during Gauteng's third wave [09:44-10:59, 265 words] Note (AI): Jacqueline Aitchison passes on students' advice for daily breaks from the desk and asks the community to focus on what it can control. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=584): > To wrap up, I think it's important to just acknowledge that times are a little tough at the moment. There's no doubt about that. This third wave has hit Gauteng particularly hard, and we're all feeling it. The whole community is feeling it. I don't think any one of us is unscathed by what's going on around us at this point in time. Listening to some of the students that I've been teaching, you know, there's always an incredible amount of wisdom that comes from the children. They've been telling me how important it is that we pick something every day to do that is different from the norm, that takes us out of the classroom, that gets us out of our seats behind our desk, whether it's baking or playing a musical instrument, or even just getting in the garden to play something out there. And those are wise words indeed, because we all need to be doing that. It's important that we make the right choices. We, we, we remember what we can control and what we can't control, and we focus on those things in an effort to deliberately stay positive. We know this is tough. We know you want to be back at school and see your friends. We want to see you too. But let's stay safe. That is the priority right now. Two weeks is going to fly by. Let's do it. Let's do it well. Let's get the job done. And so that when you are back on campus, you're ready for those exams that are coming up. ### Quotes > "I'm quite happy to take the pain for a day." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=69) > "So for the sake of solidarity, that is exactly what we are going to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=280) > "with one WhatsApp call, we can go from schooling face-to-face on campus to schooling face-to-face from home," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=373) > "We know how to do this. We've all done it before, so let's keep doing it. We do it very, very well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=457) > "I don't think any one of us is unscathed by what's going on around us at this point in time." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=599) > "there's always an incredible amount of wisdom that comes from the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=608) > "We know you want to be back at school and see your friends. We want to see you too." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=644) > "Two weeks is going to fly by. Let's do it. Let's do it well. Let's get the job done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=651) ### Claims > "It's hard to believe that after nearly 15, 16, 17 months, I don't know, I've lost track. We still get challenges that feel larger than the, the ones before," >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: COVID-19 school closure dates · [00:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=17) > "we're very, very pleased that the majority of our staff, teaching staff, that is, have got vaccinated. Now we're just pushing for the non-academic staff to get that done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staff vaccination · [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=52) > "when we hear directives from the president in one of his addresses, Or from our Education Minister when she speaks, they are talking to the vast majority of public schools out there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=105) > "So we always have to wait for the information that they discuss in these meetings to be gazetted, first of all, and then we also, after the information has been gazetted, we wait for ISASA to interpret that information specifically for private schools in regards to how that applies to us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=126) > "There's often ambiguity in these directives because of various issues with wording, like we saw in January and we are seeing this time around again." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=145) > "According to the directives we've received, the campus needed to be closed for contact classes from the 30th of June. We were schooling from home already, so that's great." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school closure dates · [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=154) > "What it does change is that staff are allowed to be on campus until the end of business today, the 2nd of July. After that, we have to close the campus completely," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school closure dates · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=170) > "the directives say, first of all, that independent schools must close for contact classes for a period of two weeks from Wednesday, the 30th of June. And then the very next point says that the reopening of schools for learners and school staff must occur from Monday the 19th of July, which is actually two and a half weeks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [03:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=192) > "And this is why sometimes we see independent schools making decisions that are slightly different to each other, or you might be in an instance where a decision that Edu Inc has made with regards to when children return to school might be different to that of a sibling's independent school" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=211) > "Parents will not be able to pop onto campus to fetch a textbook. That option will not be available to you." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school closure dates · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=240) > "We will be opening the campus for teachers on the 14th of July. So Wednesday, the 14th of July, the staff, all staff will be back on the campus. However, the learners will only be returning to the campus on the 19th." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school closure dates · [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=246) > "is that ISASA has, has sent out a plea to the independent schools to please abide by what the government has asked us to do. So for the sake of solidarity, that is exactly what we are going to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: ISASA and government directives · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=271) > "There is an impact on this for the grade 10 and 11 exams. That exam timetable is going to have to be tweaked a little, and we will give that new updated timetable to you as soon as we have finalized it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam timetable changes · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=293) > "Luckily, it does not affect the grade 4 to 9 exam timetable. There will be no changes there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam timetable changes · [05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=306) > "We were due to start your block teaching on Wednesday, the 14th of July, so that will also be pushed back, and your block teaching on campus will start on the 19th of July." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Exam timetable changes · [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=315) > "I've always boasted that with one WhatsApp call, we can go from schooling face-to-face on campus to schooling face-to-face from home, and you guys have definitely demonstrated that you can do this very, very well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=372) > "Everybody's getting to class on time, everybody's doing the work that's assigned to them, everyone's trying to stay positive, everyone's engaging in the classes, everyone's wearing their school uniforms." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=387) > "there are one or two people that create frustration because they can't find the meeting link, or they haven't switched their computer on in enough time to check that it's updated." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=399) > "if you need help to get organized, please reach out to your classmates or to your teachers to assist you. Let's work on those organizational skills so that it's a pleasant and positive learning experience for everybody online." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=412) > "when their peers and classmates are late for class, when they have other tabs open and they are watching videos or engaging in chats, or they're listening to music, and this is very disruptive to the learning process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=430) > "I'm imploring you all to be present in the class, to make sure that you are paying attention and contributing in a meaningful way, and that you're getting the work done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=448) > "we're having a great opportunity to entrench and reinforce the online skills that we are going to use in the world moving forward." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=466) > "Even though we are not going to be on campus during Mandela Day now, we will continue with that food drive. just a reminder that that food drive is dry goods." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Mandela Day and community projects · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=490) > "The second project that continues is the plastic bottle collection. Again, please keep collecting your plastic bottles, and we'll get them from you on Monday the nineteenth of July." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Mandela Day and community projects · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=523) > "the Mandela Day project of Collecting dry food goods or preserved food goods for, the charity is being driven by Christian and Oliver, the two youngest members of our school, and it's a great opportunity for them to learn how to give back to the community and drive a project of this scale." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Mandela Day and community projects · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=535) > "I know Mrs. Aitchison is still doing her TED-Ed club and preparing the last couple of students for their TED videos. The Dungeons and Dragons club is still going ahead, as we can do that online," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Clubs during lockdown · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=563) > "This third wave has hit Gauteng particularly hard, and we're all feeling it. The whole community is feeling it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Wellbeing in the third wave · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=592) > "They've been telling me how important it is that we pick something every day to do that is different from the norm, that takes us out of the classroom, that gets us out of our seats behind our desk, whether it's baking or playing a musical instrument, or even just getting in the garden to play something out there." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Wellbeing in the third wave · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=612) > "We, we, we remember what we can control and what we can't control, and we focus on those things in an effort to deliberately stay positive." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Wellbeing in the third wave · [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=634) > "We know you want to be back at school and see your friends. We want to see you too. But let's stay safe. That is the priority right now." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Wellbeing in the third wave · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1067883_high.mp3#t=644) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## The 3rd Wave - Back to School for the 2nd Semester of 2021 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-06-19-the-3rd-wave-back-to-school/ - Date: 2021-06-19 (as at 2021-06-19) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Third wave COVID response, Schooling from home setup, Matrics on campus, Quarantine and self-isolation rules, COVID testing guidance, Community and social responsibility - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1058253 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short school-community episode from Edu Inc, a mainstream independent IEB school in Fourways, Johannesburg, recorded as the third COVID wave hit Gauteng. Hosts Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison explain that the second semester starts with a week of schooling from home, with matrics and teachers on campus. Gershom recaps the equipment and behaviours needed for schooling from home and the new term schedule. Jacqueline explains how ten-day quarantine applies to direct and once-removed contacts, and relays a GP's answers on rapid and PCR tests. Both close by urging patience and social responsibility amid COVID fatigue. **Key ideas** - Gershom Aitchison says the semester opens with a week of schooling from home, possibly two depending on the third wave, which he calls the socially responsible choice given pressure on Gauteng hospitals. ([00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=24) [00:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=34) [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=46)) - Matrics stay on campus in a large room, with teachers moving between classes, because these are their last six weeks of formal schooling before winter school and preliminary exams. ([00:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=16) [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=60)) - Gershom describes three elements of schooling from home: technology for work, technology for communication, and technological behaviours such as focus and an uncluttered workspace. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=148) [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=161) [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=172) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=182) [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=199)) - Jacqueline Aitchison explains that a positive case in the immediate family means ten days of isolation, restarting if another family member tests positive in that period. ([04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=290) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=328) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=340)) - Once-removed contacts do not need to isolate unless symptoms appear and a test comes back positive, according to Jacqueline. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=370) [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=414)) - Relaying a GP, Jacqueline says rapid antigen tests cannot rule out COVID, a day-five PCR is not a route back to school, and children with symptoms should stay home. ([07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=432) [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=492) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508) [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=537) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=551)) - Jacqueline warns of COVID fatigue and calls for patience, mutual support and sensible behaviour, while Gershom points to the school community's past experience. ([09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=577) [09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=596) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=606)) **Three elements of schooling from home** ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=148) [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=161) [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=172) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=182) [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=199)) 1. Technology for work: a laptop with Google Classroom on a second screen, plus books and textbooks to hand. 2. Technology for communication: a screen with webcam on showing the class and the teacher's presentation. 3. Technological behaviours: an organised, uncluttered workspace, no extra browsers, music or YouTube, and focus on the class. **Lessons** - Students schooling from home need two monitors, a webcam, over-ear headphones with a microphone and school uniform, and should follow the normal schedule, according to Gershom. ([04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=248)) - Jacqueline, relaying a GP, says a negative rapid test does not clear a child with a snotty nose to attend school. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508)) - Per the GP Jacqueline quotes, children with a COVID contact should complete the full ten-day quarantine rather than testing out early. ([08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=492) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=551) [09:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=552)) - Matrics on campus should bring sanitiser, tissues and wet wipes and wear clothes that can be washed daily, Jacqueline reminds them. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=116) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=125)) - Parents with no one to supervise children at home can contact Mr. G. Stanton at reception to arrange accommodation, as an exceptional measure. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=93)) **Who it's for:** Parents and students of Edu Inc preparing for the start of the second semester of 2021, and anyone wanting a plain explanation of ten-day quarantine rules and why rapid or early PCR tests do not shorten isolation for school children. **Facts stated in the episode** - Matrics have six weeks of formal schooling left before winter school and preliminary exams. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=60)) - Family isolation after a positive case lasts ten days from the positive test date. ([05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=328)) - The five-day PCR test was introduced by the CDC for healthcare workers needing to return to work. ([08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=537)) - The new class schedule is called Schedule June 2021, Term 2, on the school website. ([04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=265)) - Grades 4 to 9 switch between history and geography for the new term. ([04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=273)) - Edu Inc has more parents ill in the third wave than in the first or second waves. ([05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=309)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Will Edu Inc students be at school or at home at the start of the second semester in 2021?** A: Gershom Aitchison says the first week will be schooling from home, possibly extended to a second week depending on the third wave. Teachers and matrics will be on campus. ([00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=24) [00:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=34) [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=60)) **Q: Why are matrics on campus when other grades are at home?** A: Gershom says it is the last six weeks of their formal schooling before winter school and preliminary exams, with a lot of assessment and finishing up. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=60)) **Q: What equipment does my child need for schooling from home?** A: Two monitors, a webcam, over-ear headphones with a microphone and school uniform, plus access to Google Classroom and their books, following the normal schedule. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=172) [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=182) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=248)) **Q: How long does a family isolate if someone gets COVID?** A: Jacqueline says the family isolates for ten days from the positive test date; if another member tests positive in that period, the ten days restart. ([05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=328) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=340)) **Q: Do I need to isolate if a friend of a family member had COVID?** A: For a once-removed contact, Jacqueline says no isolation is required unless symptoms show; then test, and if positive the ten-day quarantine begins. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=370) [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=414)) **Q: Can my child return to school early after a negative COVID test?** A: The GP Jacqueline quotes says no: the full ten days are needed, and a day-five PCR is not recommended because it was introduced by the CDC for healthcare workers. ([08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=492) [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=537) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=551)) **Q: Can a child with a cold go to school if the rapid test is negative?** A: No. The GP says the rapid antigen test is not sensitive enough to rule out COVID and no child should attend with symptoms, even with a negative PCR. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508)) **Q: Is the school timetable changing in the second semester?** A: Yes. A new schedule, Schedule June 2021, Term 2, is on the school website, and grades 4 to 9 swap between history and geography. ([04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=265) [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=273)) ### Passage: Back-to-school plan for the third wave [00:16-01:53, 310 words] Note (AI): Sets out who is on campus, who schools from home, why matrics are prioritised, and how parents with no home oversight can arrange care. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=16): > It's been a while since we've had a COVID podcast from Edu Inc. I think we've been quite fortunate and lucky in this part of the year so far. So going back to school next week is going to look a lot like going back to school at the beginning of this year, where we're going to be schooling from home for the first week. We'll review what the numbers are doing, and then we will possibly do it for a second week, depending on where we are with the third wave. I think it is the socially responsible thing to do. I think that specifically Gauteng has been hit very hard, and I know that the hospitals and health resources are being stretched to the limit at the moment. We are going to have our teachers and our matrix on campus. Our metrics will be in the large room with the teachers moving between classes to minimize exposure for them, and this is very important time of the year for the metrics because it's the last six weeks of their formal schooling before we go into winter school and their preliminary exams, and that's why we want them on campus. There's a lot of assessment happening and a lot of finishing up, and because the school has got the resources in terms of the technology and things like that, our teachers will be on campus as well. In summary, our teachers and our metrics are going to be at school on campus on Monday. If parents are in an emergency situation where they cannot have their children at home because there is no oversight for them, please will you contact Mr. G. Stanton at reception and email him so that we can make arrangements to accommodate those children. Please know that that is an exceptional circumstance and an emergency condition. ### Passage: Three elements of successful schooling from home [02:28-04:42, 413 words] Note (AI): A practical checklist of equipment, behaviours and schedule changes students and parents need for learning-from-home days at the school. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=148): > As we came into school at the beginning of this year, there was a lot of discussion around what the requirements are for schooling from home, specifically for the students. And as a quick recap, there are three elements to schooling from home to make it successful. The first is technology for work, technology for communication, and then technological behaviors. Technology for communication is having a screen with your webcam on, being able to see your class while you're busy working, and the screen that the teacher's presenting to you. Technology for work is having your laptop, being able to access Google Classroom and work independently on the second screen from where you're seeing your classmates and the teacher, and also having your books and textbooks in front of you so that you can be writing notes if you need to and actually reviewing your textbooks. And then technological behaviors that are very important are being organized, making sure that your workspace is not cluttered, that you have enough space to work in the physical and digital world, in other words, write in your books if you need to, read your textbooks, et cetera, and that you are not having browsers open, listening to music, watching YouTube, that you're focused and in the classroom. Just remember that the teachers know when you're not doing that. I'd like to also make sure that all the students are in school uniform, we are at school, that you're punctual for your classes, and that you're engaged in your classes. Your webcams will be on at all times so the teachers can see you and speak to you. Please make sure that you have switched your computers on earlier in the morning so if any updates and things like that need to happen, that they can happen in that time, and that you have a stable and secure internet connection, please. So as a recap, two monitors, a webcam, over-ear headphones with a microphone, your school uniform, and we are following the normal school schedule. Because we're going into our second semester of the year, there is a new school schedule, class schedule that's coming out It will be on the school website under resources called Schedule June 2021, Term 2. If you were taking history last term, you're going to take geography this term. If you're taking geography last term, you're going to take history this term, and that's for the grade fours to grade nines. ### Passage: How direct and once-removed contact quarantine works [04:50-06:52, 341 words] Note (AI): Explains the ten-day isolation rule, when it restarts, and why once-removed contacts do not isolate unless symptoms appear. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=290): > The questions we've been getting surrounding COVID are specifically related to the logistics of self-quarantining and self-isolating, when children should be at school, when they shouldn't be at school, how quickly they can come back, problems like that. We seem to be in the thick of the third wave now, and I suppose the biggest difference for us as Edu Inc is that we have more parents ill in the third wave than we've seen in the first or second wave, which means that the quarantining and self-isolation has become more real for us. How it works is that, let's take for example the, the immediate family as the first scenario. If a parent or a child in the family has contracted COVID, the family goes into self-isolation for ten days from the date of the positive test result. If within that ten-day period another member of the family shows symptoms and gets a test result that comes back positive, the ten-day quarantine starts again from the date of that positive test. When things get a little bit trickier, it's been when there's a once-removed scenario, and that's when, for example, a sports coach has been ill, or the sports coach's wife has been ill, or a staff member's husband's colleague has gotten ill. So we're not dealing with a direct contact at that point. And in that scenario, no self-isolation is required unless symptoms show, then you go for the test, and if it comes back positive, the ten-day quarantine begins. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=382): > So do I understand it correctly that the 10-day quarantine applies to direct contact with somebody? If you, Mrs. Aitchison, are in direct contact with somebody who has had COVID and is tested positive, you go into self-isolation for 10 days? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=398): > Yes, that's correct. If you are not the one who's been in direct contact, the isolation is not necessary unless you start to show symptoms or that person within your family shows symptoms and comes back with a positive test result, then you would go into the 10-day quarantine. ### Passage: A GP's answers on early return and testing [07:12-09:16, 422 words] Note (AI): Relays a doctor's answers to common parent questions about rapid tests, PCR tests and returning before ten days are up. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=432): > The second challenge we've been facing as a school is when somebody has been in the self-isolation phase in, within the 10-day period, And parents would like to bring the kids back to school sooner than the 10-day quarantine period is up, and this is presenting quite a few challenges for schools. I think the easiest way to deal with this one is to actually refer a message that I was sent in the last few days that came directly from a GP, because she's answering the same questions we are, but she's doing it from a more professional standpoint. She understands, she's at the coalface. And she sent out a message with some Q&A on it, and I'm actually just going to work directly from that so that parents are getting it from the horse's mouth, as it were. So the first question she referred to was this one. She said, my child has had a COVID contact last Saturday. Can he play soccer this Sunday? In other words, day eight. I will take him for a rapid COVID test the day before, and he'll wear a mask, and he will sanitize before the match. Now, obviously, that would also refer to a play date or a birthday party or even coming back to school. And the doctor's response to that was, unfortunately not. He needs the full 10-day quarantine. The second question says, my child has a snotty nose. I'm sure it's a normal winter cold. Can you go to school if the COVID rapid test is negative? And the doctor says, no, the rapid antigen test is not sensitive enough to rule out COVID. Plus, no child should go to school with any symptoms, regardless of test results, even if it was a PCR. So that's quite an important one because there's a lot of confusion around the PCR tests. Then another one that's quite frequent, the parents would ask, after a COVID contact, can my child have a COVID PCR test on day five, then return to school on day six if it is negative? And the doctor says that this is not recommended, and she reminds us that the five-day PCR test was introduced by the CDC for healthcare workers that needed to get back to work, during the crisis. It's not really a great test for children to be using in terms of going back to school or not. Again, she's saying save the money on the PCR and just wait out the full ten-day quarantine. ### Quotes > "Just remember that the teachers know when you're not doing that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=221) > "so that parents are getting it from the horse's mouth, as it were." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=467) > "the rapid antigen test is not sensitive enough to rule out COVID." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508) > "save the money on the PCR and just wait out the full ten-day quarantine." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [09:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=552) > "We've got to be patient. We've got to support each other. We've got to be sensible. And we've got to stay safe. It's as simple as that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=598) > "We've done this before. We know what to do, and we know how to do it well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=609) > "So let's all put on our schooling from home attitude and hats, and we will see you on Monday at home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=612) ### Claims > "going back to school next week is going to look a lot like going back to school at the beginning of this year, where we're going to be schooling from home for the first week." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Third wave COVID response · [00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=24) > "We'll review what the numbers are doing, and then we will possibly do it for a second week, depending on where we are with the third wave. I think it is the socially responsible thing to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Third wave COVID response · [00:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=34) > "I think that specifically Gauteng has been hit very hard, and I know that the hospitals and health resources are being stretched to the limit at the moment." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Third wave COVID response · [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=46) > "Our metrics will be in the large room with the teachers moving between classes to minimize exposure for them, and this is very important time of the year for the metrics because it's the last six weeks of their formal schooling before we go into winter school and their preliminary exams, and that's why we want them on campus." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matrics on campus · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=60) > "If parents are in an emergency situation where they cannot have their children at home because there is no oversight for them, please will you contact Mr. G. Stanton at reception and email him so that we can make arrangements to accommodate those children." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Third wave COVID response · [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=93) > "your PPE requirements need to be in place, so your, your sanitizers, your tissues, your wet wipes, so that we can make sure that your surfaces are properly cleaned." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Matrics on campus · [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=116) > "And remember that you do need to be wearing clothes that can be washed every day." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Matrics on campus · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=125) > "there are three elements to schooling from home to make it successful. The first is technology for work, technology for communication, and then technological behaviors." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=161) > "Technology for communication is having a screen with your webcam on, being able to see your class while you're busy working, and the screen that the teacher's presenting to you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=172) > "Technology for work is having your laptop, being able to access Google Classroom and work independently on the second screen from where you're seeing your classmates and the teacher, and also having your books and textbooks in front of you so that you can be writing notes if you need to and actually reviewing your textbooks." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=182) > "And then technological behaviors that are very important are being organized, making sure that your workspace is not cluttered, that you have enough space to work in the physical and digital world, in other words, write in your books if you need to, read your textbooks, et cetera, and that you are not having browsers open, listening to music, watching YouTube, that you're focused and in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=199) > "So as a recap, two monitors, a webcam, over-ear headphones with a microphone, your school uniform, and we are following the normal school schedule." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=248) > "It will be on the school website under resources called Schedule June 2021, Term 2." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=265) > "If you were taking history last term, you're going to take geography this term. If you're taking geography last term, you're going to take history this term, and that's for the grade fours to grade nines." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home setup · [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=273) > "the biggest difference for us as Edu Inc is that we have more parents ill in the third wave than we've seen in the first or second wave, which means that the quarantining and self-isolation has become more real for us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Third wave COVID response · [05:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=309) > "If a parent or a child in the family has contracted COVID, the family goes into self-isolation for ten days from the date of the positive test result." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=328) > "If within that ten-day period another member of the family shows symptoms and gets a test result that comes back positive, the ten-day quarantine starts again from the date of that positive test." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=340) > "And in that scenario, no self-isolation is required unless symptoms show, then you go for the test, and if it comes back positive, the ten-day quarantine begins." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=370) > "if you had visited your parents and one of them had got, have, had contracted COVID and you came home and I was in contact with you, you would go into 10-day quarantine, but I would not unless you showed symptoms for COVID." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=414) > "And parents would like to bring the kids back to school sooner than the 10-day quarantine period is up, and this is presenting quite a few challenges for schools." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=440) > "And the doctor's response to that was, unfortunately not. He needs the full 10-day quarantine." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID testing guidance · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=492) > "the rapid antigen test is not sensitive enough to rule out COVID. Plus, no child should go to school with any symptoms, regardless of test results, even if it was a PCR." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID testing guidance · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=508) > "she reminds us that the five-day PCR test was introduced by the CDC for healthcare workers that needed to get back to work, during the crisis." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID testing guidance · [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=537) > "Again, she's saying save the money on the PCR and just wait out the full ten-day quarantine." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID testing guidance · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=551) > "if you have symptoms or have been in direct contact with somebody with COVID, that it is ten days isolation. That's the socially responsible thing to do as well as a medically responsible thing to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Quarantine and self-isolation rules · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=558) > "I think the biggest thing to remember is that we are seeing a lot of COVID fatigue out there. People are wanting to go about their normal lives and the fact of the matter is we are in a third wave" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Community and social responsibility · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=577) > "So we have to just be socially responsible. We've got to be patient. We've got to support each other. We've got to be sensible. And we've got to stay safe." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Community and social responsibility · [09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=596) > "Edu Inc as a family have been very supportive of each other. We've done this before. We know what to do, and we know how to do it well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Community and social responsibility · [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1058253_high.mp3#t=606) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## The Importance of Failure | Cian Quinn - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-06-17-the-importance-of-failure/ - Date: 2021-06-17 (as at 2021-06-17) - Guest: Cian Quinn - Themes: Learning from failure, Resilience and perseverance, Historical figures and setbacks, Exams and self-worth - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1056703 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Cian Quinn (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short solo speech in which Cian Quinn argues that failure, though the root of many fears, is the source of the most important lessons and the key to success. He draws on Sun Tzu, Stephen Hawking, Napoleon, Genghis Khan and Winston Churchill to argue that celebrated figures also experienced failure. He applies the idea personally, saying one test or exam should not define the rest of your life. He closes with a Henry Ford quote. **Key ideas** - Cian argues that the lessons learned from failure are responsible for success and are arguably the most important lessons one can learn. ([00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29) [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29)) - Cian contends failure should be met early, so that a massive-scale failure is never a person's first failure later in life. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=47)) - Cian says that comprehending failure matters more than overcoming it if you are to grow. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=142) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=155)) - Cian argues that revered historical figures, including Churchill and Napoleon, experienced significant losses and learned from failure. ([02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=179) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=188) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=210) [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=223)) - Cian says that one test or exam does not and should not define the rest of your life. ([02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=169) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=175)) **Lessons** - Cian suggests treating failure as a step towards perfecting the task rather than as a personal failing. ([00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=39)) - Cian argues that you should look for the flaws in your accomplishments in order to know what is better. ([01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=63)) - According to Cian, the more you fail, recover and improve, the more you grow and learn. ([03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=238)) - Cian takes from the quote about the courage to continue that a single exam result is not the end of everything. ([02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=163) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=169)) **Who it's for:** Students, parents and teachers who want a short, student-voiced reflection on failure, resilience and exam pressure, illustrated with historical examples. **Facts stated in the episode** - Cian says Sun Tzu worked with the Chinese military around 512 BC and is reputed never to have lost a battle. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=78)) - Cian states that in 1915 Churchill helped orchestrate the Dardanelles naval campaign and was involved in planning the Gallipoli landings. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=210)) - Cian says Napoleon's Grande Armee won a battle in Russia with casualties in a ratio of two to three but gained no decisive victory. ([03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=188)) - Cian notes that Stephen Hawking had motor neuron disease and developed the argument that black holes emit radiation. ([01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=117)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why is failure important for success?** A: Cian argues that what we learn from failure is the key to success, and that those lessons are arguably the most important one can learn. ([00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29) [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29)) **Q: Why should children experience failure early?** A: Cian says failure should be learned as early as possible, so that a failure at massive scale is never the first one a person meets later in life. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=47)) **Q: Is overcoming failure the most important thing?** A: Cian says no: overcoming failure is not as important as comprehending it if you are to grow from failing. ([02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=155)) **Q: Does one bad exam define your future?** A: Cian says one test or one exam doesn't and shouldn't define the rest of your life, and that failure is never the be all and end all. ([02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=169) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=175)) **Q: Did famous historical leaders ever fail?** A: Cian points to Napoleon's invasion of Russia and Churchill's Dardanelles and Gallipoli campaigns in 1915, among others, as losses. ([03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=188) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=210) [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=223)) **Q: What did Sun Tzu's success depend on?** A: Cian says Sun Tzu's legacy was built on learning from the mistakes and failures of others and understanding warfare better than his opponents. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=78) [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=88)) ### Passage: Why failure is the key to success [00:05-01:17, 235 words] Note (AI): Sets out the speaker's core argument: failure drives fear, yet its lessons are the most important ones and should be met early in life. Cian Quinn, guest [00:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=5): > If there has to be one thing that everyone is afraid of, it's definitely doing something wrong or failing to do and or achieving something. Failure is the root of many fears, as it is always what not to do and is always what goes wrong. With this in mind, it becomes apparent that failure is a massive factor in everything we do. Failure is what we work to avoid, what we work to overcome and what we learn to thrive from. What we learn from failure is the key to success. As such, the lessons learned from failure are the ones that are responsible for success and are arguably the most important lessons one can learn. Failure shouldn't be seen as a failure to oneself, but as an accomplishment in regards to perfection of the task that is being performed. Failure is such an important lesson to be learned as early as possible, as failure at a massive scale should never become the first failure to be experienced by a person later in life. As such, a person will never really know what is right if they do not know what is wrong. However, a person will never know what is better if they fail to see the flaws and imperfections in their accomplishments. The ability to strive for the best by using the lessons from your worst is the ability to be successful. ### Passage: Sun Tzu, Hawking and comprehending failure [01:18-02:58, 271 words] Note (AI): Uses two historical examples to argue that understanding failure matters more than overcoming it, and applies this to exams. Cian Quinn, guest [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=78): > Sun Tzu was an excellent Chinese military strategist, and he was working with the Chinese military in around 512 BC, and is reputed to have never lost a battle. Sun Tzu's entire legacy was built on his ability to learn from the mistakes and failures of others, and in understanding warfare far better than his opponents, to work against failure to achieve victory. Stephen Hawking was an influential and innovative theoretical physicist and cosmologist who made massive progress in the understanding and explanations of black holes in quantum mechanics, in relativity theory, and with spacetime singularities. Despite suffering from motor neuron disease, Stephen Hawking still made amazing discoveries and developed the theoretical argument that black holes emit radiation. His discoveries did not come without failure, and all of the theorems that are based in and around science are thought up through long nights full of frustration, many cups of coffee, and in overcoming the monster under the bed that is failure. Overcoming failure isn't about making a name for yourself, however. It's about being the best that you can be, and about understanding the overwhelming and undeniable importance of your failure. If you are ever to grow from failing, then you need to understand that overcoming failure is not as important as comprehending it. Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts. This quote is very true to me, as it teaches me that failure is never the be all and end all of life, and that, for example, one test or one exam doesn't and shouldn't define the rest of your life. ### Passage: Famous commanders who also lost [02:59-04:11, 197 words] Note (AI): Cites defeats of revered leaders to show that even celebrated figures failed, closing on a call to fail, recover and improve. Cian Quinn, guest [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=179): > People like Napoleon Bonaparte, Genghis Khan, and Winston Churchill are revered for their military achievements, but none of them are without loss. Napoleon's French invasion of Russia saw the Grande Armee win a battle against the Imperial Russian Army, with casualties in a ratio of two to three, and then failed to gain a decisive victory. The Battle of Crécy was the first battle between Volga Bulgaria and the Mongols, most likely being one of the first skirmishes or battles the Mongols lost. In 1915, Winston Churchill helped orchestrate the disastrous Dardanelles naval campaign, and he was also involved in the planning of the military landings on Gallipoli, both of which saw large losses. It is safe to say that these historic figures didn't learn all of these lessons without experiencing failure. Winners are not afraid of losing, but losers are, and this stands true, as no human ever became interesting by not losing. The more you fail, recover, and improve, the better you are as a person, the better you grow, and the better that you learn. Henry Ford once reminded us, the only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing. Thank you. ### Quotes > "What we learn from failure is the key to success." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29) > "a person will never really know what is right if they do not know what is wrong." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=58) > "The ability to strive for the best by using the lessons from your worst is the ability to be successful." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=71) > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=163) > "one test or one exam doesn't and shouldn't define the rest of your life." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=175) > "Winners are not afraid of losing, but losers are, and this stands true, as no human ever became interesting by not losing." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=230) > "Henry Ford once reminded us, the only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=246) ### Claims > "Failure is the root of many fears, as it is always what not to do and is always what goes wrong." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=12) > "What we learn from failure is the key to success. As such, the lessons learned from failure are the ones that are responsible for success and are arguably the most important lessons one can learn." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=29) > "Failure shouldn't be seen as a failure to oneself, but as an accomplishment in regards to perfection of the task that is being performed." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=39) > "Failure is such an important lesson to be learned as early as possible, as failure at a massive scale should never become the first failure to be experienced by a person later in life." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=47) > "However, a person will never know what is better if they fail to see the flaws and imperfections in their accomplishments. The ability to strive for the best by using the lessons from your worst is the ability to be successful." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=63) > "Sun Tzu was an excellent Chinese military strategist, and he was working with the Chinese military in around 512 BC, and is reputed to have never lost a battle." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=78) > "Sun Tzu's entire legacy was built on his ability to learn from the mistakes and failures of others, and in understanding warfare far better than his opponents, to work against failure to achieve victory." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=88) > "Despite suffering from motor neuron disease, Stephen Hawking still made amazing discoveries and developed the theoretical argument that black holes emit radiation." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=117) > "His discoveries did not come without failure, and all of the theorems that are based in and around science are thought up through long nights full of frustration, many cups of coffee, and in overcoming the monster under the bed that is failure." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Resilience and perseverance · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=127) > "Overcoming failure isn't about making a name for yourself, however. It's about being the best that you can be, and about understanding the overwhelming and undeniable importance of your failure." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=142) > "If you are ever to grow from failing, then you need to understand that overcoming failure is not as important as comprehending it." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=155) > "This quote is very true to me, as it teaches me that failure is never the be all and end all of life, and that, for example, one test or one exam doesn't and shouldn't define the rest of your life." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Exams and self-worth · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=169) > "Napoleon's French invasion of Russia saw the Grande Armee win a battle against the Imperial Russian Army, with casualties in a ratio of two to three, and then failed to gain a decisive victory." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=188) > "The Battle of Crécy was the first battle between Volga Bulgaria and the Mongols, most likely being one of the first skirmishes or battles the Mongols lost." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=200) > "In 1915, Winston Churchill helped orchestrate the disastrous Dardanelles naval campaign, and he was also involved in the planning of the military landings on Gallipoli, both of which saw large losses." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=210) > "It is safe to say that these historic figures didn't learn all of these lessons without experiencing failure." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Historical figures and setbacks · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=223) > "The more you fail, recover, and improve, the better you are as a person, the better you grow, and the better that you learn." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Resilience and perseverance · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1056703_high.mp3#t=238) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Benefits to Travelling at a Young Age | Lillian Jackson - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-06-17-benefits-to-travelling-at-a-young/ - Date: 2021-06-17 (as at 2021-06-17) - Guest: Lillian Jackson - Themes: Travelling at a young age, Learning on location, Empathy and cultural awareness, Tolerance for uncertainty, Creativity and inspiration, Family time on the road - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1068332 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Lillian Jackson - Travelled with her family by VW camper van from ages 10 to 13, starting in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, and traversing over fifty different countries over three and a half years. In their own words: > "We began our journey in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, with the intention of driving around the world. Three and a half years later, I was still living out of a small box of clothes, having traversed over fifty different countries." [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=53) > "Traveling around with my family from ages 10 to 13 did give me a passion for learning, and I hope I am more self-aware and culturally sensitive." [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=534) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A single-speaker episode in which Lillian Jackson, a Canadian, recounts travelling with her family by camper van from ages 10 to 13 across over fifty countries. She sets research-cited benefits of youth travel (academic interest, self-awareness, empathy, tolerance of uncertainty, creativity) against her own experiences: concerts in Vienna, war museums in Vietnam, breakdowns in Namibia and sleeper buses in India. She concludes that travel made her more understanding and empathetic and brought her closer to her family, and closes with practical travel tips. **Key ideas** - Lillian argues the true benefits of travelling young are only understood once put into context or experienced firsthand. ([01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=74) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=94)) - She says visiting places of historical interest turns school into active learning, citing Vienna and a World War II bunker. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104) [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=125) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=141)) - She describes everyday maths on the road: time, distance and quick exchange-rate calculations. ([02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=160)) - She believes exposure to tragic human histories through travel cultivates the empathy future leaders need. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=197) [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=229) [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=258) [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=268)) - She says overland travel built her tolerance for uncertainty and confidence through resourcefulness and help from strangers. ([04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=288) [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=304) [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=312) [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=336) [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=354)) - She cites Shelley Carson of Harvard that exposure to new cultures broadens perspective, linked to creative thinking. ([07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=446)) - Her main takeaway is that travel made her a better, more empathetic person and brought her closer to her family. ([08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=494) [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=511) [08:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=515) [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=527)) **Lessons** - Lillian suggests tying studies to the places being visited so subjects connect to real locations. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=141)) - She notes not all learning on the road is joyful; hard museum visits left her in tears but made her more mature. ([04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=258)) - She found that resourcefulness, confidence and help from strangers got the family through uncertain nights. ([05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=336)) - She stresses quality family time as invaluable, drawing on Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=527)) - Her practical tips: check your visa's expiry date, guard food from baboons, and treat your passport as your most valuable possession. ([09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=564)) **Who it's for:** Parents weighing long-term family travel or a gap in conventional routines, and young people curious what travelling at a young age can teach about learning, empathy, confidence and family life. **Facts stated in the episode** - The journey began in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, and covered over fifty countries in three and a half years. ([00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=53)) - Lillian travelled with her family from ages 10 to 13. ([08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=534)) - She cites a 1988 book, Abroad and Beyond, by Crawford D. Goodwin and Michael Nocht. ([03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=208)) - In Namibia the stalling van had to be driven no slower than 60 kilometers an hour. ([06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=380)) - She visited the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. ([03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=229)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What are the benefits of travelling at a young age?** A: Lillian cites benefits including enhanced academic performance, leadership skills, a stronger sense of self and greater tolerance of uncertainty, but says they are best understood through experience. ([01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=74) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=94)) **Q: Does travel help children learn school subjects?** A: Lillian says visiting historical places makes school active learning; she connects the Blitzkrieg and Strauss to places she visited, though she can't say for sure her academic performance improved. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=141) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=184)) **Q: How was she schooled while travelling?** A: Her mom taught her all subjects except music, which her dad covered through his iPod. ([00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=39)) **Q: Can travel make kids more empathetic?** A: Lillian says museums in Vietnam, Cambodia and Poland showed her tragic histories and made her more mature and sensitive; she believes such exposure cultivates empathy. ([03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=229) [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=258) [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=268)) **Q: How does travel build confidence in children?** A: She describes sleeping at a petrol station, being stranded on highways and taking a sleeper bus in India, saying she knows she can do it because she has done it. ([05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=312) [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=354) [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=361)) **Q: What research supports travel and creativity?** A: She cites Shelley Carson of Harvard University that travel exposes you to new cultures and places, broadening perspective. ([07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=446)) **Q: What was her biggest takeaway from years of family travel?** A: That travel made her a better, more understanding and empathetic person and brought her closer to her family. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=511)) **Q: What practical travel tips does she give?** A: Always check your visa's expiry date, never leave food unattended around baboons, and treat your passport as your most valuable possession. ([09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=564)) ### Passage: Selling the house and setting off in a camper van [00:12-01:06, 184 words] Note (AI): Sets out the family's decision, how her schooling worked on the road, and the scale of the journey: three and a half years, over fifty countries. Lillian Jackson, guest [00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=12): > When I was ten years old, my parents sold our house, gave away our belongings, and packed the rest of our lives into a storage unit. They strapped me and my brother into a VW camper van and started driving south. We're Canadian, and driving south is really all we could do unless we wanted to freeze to death. I had a small box of clothes and toiletries and a small box of school materials. My bed, our kitchen, our dining room, and our living room were now all contained on top of four wheels. My mom became my teacher in all subjects except music, where the history of music and music appreciation was left to my dad and his eclectic iPod. It was full of all the greats, and even the odd times something would play that didn't make my mom roll her eyes. We began our journey in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, with the intention of driving around the world. Three and a half years later, I was still living out of a small box of clothes, having traversed over fifty different countries. ### Passage: How travel turned school subjects into active learning [01:44-03:16, 282 words] Note (AI): Concrete examples of history, music, maths and reading tied to places visited, with her own caveat about whether academic performance actually improved. Lillian Jackson, guest [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104): > Actually visiting places of historical interest and traversing continents increases interest and a better understanding of locations and events. School becomes active learning when you can picture yourself on location. In my case, I traveled through Europe doing special projects on classical music and the world wars, tailoring explorations to our studies. We attended a classical music concert in Austria at the Vienna Operhaus and walked through a World War II bunker that now houses a Hitler Museum. I was able to hear the music played in the original setting when it debuted and feel the claustrophobic nature of an air raid bunker. So now when I read about the Blitzkrieg or hear the Blue Danube by Strauss, I'm able to connect the stories and music to the locations and the things I learned into the place and time of these events. Those examples are obvious, but with subjects such as math and science, it's more subtle, but there is still an everyday application of these subjects. On the road, calculating time and distance was a daily occurrence, and making quick exchange rate calculations had to be second nature, or we risked botching a market negotiation or changing currency at an unfavorable rate. But for me, personally, I found the downtime to be equally beneficial, as it allowed me to devour a couple great books. There's no better way to lose yourself in a book than relating the story to the places you've been. I can't say for sure if traveling really did increase my academic performance. Perhaps it did. But I can say that I do find a number of topics pique my interest simply because I have had firsthand experience. ### Passage: Self-awareness and empathy from confronting tragic histories [03:17-04:46, 269 words] Note (AI): Links cited research to museum visits in Vietnam, Cambodia and Poland, and to her view that future leaders need empathy. Lillian Jackson, guest [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=197): > When you travel, it has been shown that you become more self-aware. You discover things about yourself, your values, and priorities that help define your goals, create good habits, and improve your individuality. From a book written in 1988 titled "Abroad and Beyond: Patterns in American Overseas Education" by Crawford D. Goodwin and Michael Nocht, found that students become more mature, sophisticated, hungry for knowledge, culturally aware, and sensitive. They learn by questioning their prejudices and all national stereotypes. When we traveled through Vietnam, we visited the War Remnants Museum in the Ho Chi Minh City, where the Vietnam War is portrayed as an act of aggression by the French and Americans with accusations of war crimes. It is an alternate view of the war one hears about, in North America especially. We became more culturally aware and sensitive when presented with graphic images of a country's tragic past. This was the case in other countries as well, such as Cambodia and Poland, where museums and locations hit home the tragedies suffered by humans in recent history. Not all learning was exciting, fun, and joyful, many times I left certain places in tears. But exploring such events has helped me become a more mature and sensitive person. I believe that leaders of tomorrow need a high level of empathy for everyone on this planet, and through travel and exposure to tragic and unfathomable human histories, this empathy and understanding can be cultivated. I like to think that my generation will know better and therefore do better, and this will have a little bit to do with the traveling youngsters. ### Passage: Uncertainty, breakdowns and building confidence overland [04:48-06:42, 356 words] Note (AI): Firsthand stories of no signal, unsafe campsites, a sleeper bus in India and a stalling van in Namibia illustrate how confidence was built. Lillian Jackson, guest [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=288): > Traveling enhances your tolerance for uncertainty. It also boosts your confidence. When traveling by van overland, this is definitely true. Although technology today makes traveling so much easier than in the past, it is still not smooth sailing. Often we were in places without cell signal, and the state of roads made calculating our time to the next destination almost impossible. I've slept in the van while parked in a Guatemalan petrol station, camped at questionable places in El Salvador, Botswana, and Nicaragua, and been stranded on highways with our home broken down on the side of the road. Even little things like getting laundry done sometimes proved difficult. I have learned that I can pull off the wearing of dirty clothes and that rewearing clothes that are just a little bit dirty isn't the end of the world. Some days I didn't know where I was going to be sleeping that night. But a little resourcefulness, some confidence, and often with the help of strangers, we managed, and it wasn't all that scary. I am confident with public transport as well, having backpacked through Asia and used various metro systems in Europe. Boarding a sleeper bus from Varanasi to Delhi in India takes a lot of courage for a small-town Canadian girl, and I know I can do it. I know because I've done it. While we were driving up the west coast of southern Africa, our van broke down in an odd way. Every time the van slowed down, it would stall and not be able to start up again. We would have to wait for an hour every time this happened in order to continue on. It broke down as if it were the bus in the movie Speed, so we had to drive along roads of Namibia going no slower than 60 kilometers an hour. My dad took a roundabout on two wheels and traffic lights were our nemesis. Unfortunately, there were police checks and lights on our way to our destination, and the part we needed to fix this issue. Too bad we didn't have Keanu Reeves to save the day. ### Passage: What she took away from years on the road [08:14-09:31, 254 words] Note (AI): Her own summary of the benefits, weighing science against experience, stressing family closeness, and ending with practical travel tips. Lillian Jackson, guest [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=494): > But traveling did more than just inspire me. It gave me a sense of self and a deeper understanding of who I am. From my perspective, all the things that science has said is true, but for me, putting a bullet list together of all the benefits I gained from traveling at a young age is more complicated than what science has to offer. What I've taken away from all those years on the road is, simply put, traveling has made me a better person, more understanding, more empathetic, and most of all, it brought me closer to my family. And if my dad's extensive music playlist has taught me anything, or should I say, if Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle has taught me anything, getting quality family time can prove to be invaluable. Traveling around with my family from ages 10 to 13 did give me a passion for learning, and I hope I am more self-aware and culturally sensitive. I like to think that I am tolerant with uncertainty and have the courage to explore new situations, and maybe I am creative in certain ways. I do know that barbecue crickets with avocado is delicious. The highwaymen are known as the country supergroup, whatever that is. That you shouldn't walk the banks of the Ganges River first thing in the morning if you are uncomfortable with full frontal male nudity. Always check your visa's expiry date, and never leave food unattended around baboons. Also, your passport is your most valuable possession. ### Quotes > "We travel initially to lose ourselves, and we travel next to find ourselves." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [00:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=5) > "There's no better way to lose yourself in a book than relating the story to the places you've been." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=179) > "I like to think that my generation will know better and therefore do better, and this will have a little bit to do with the traveling youngsters." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=280) > "I have learned that I can pull off the wearing of dirty clothes and that rewearing clothes that are just a little bit dirty isn't the end of the world." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=328) > "I know I can do it. I know because I've done it." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=361) > "Too bad we didn't have Keanu Reeves to save the day." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=400) > "Everywhere can be home, and anywhere can be comfortable." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=413) > "traveling has made me a better person, more understanding, more empathetic, and most of all, it brought me closer to my family." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [08:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=515) > "I do know that barbecue crickets with avocado is delicious." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=550) ### Claims > "When I was ten years old, my parents sold our house, gave away our belongings, and packed the rest of our lives into a storage unit." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=12) > "My mom became my teacher in all subjects except music, where the history of music and music appreciation was left to my dad and his eclectic iPod." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=39) > "We began our journey in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada, with the intention of driving around the world. Three and a half years later, I was still living out of a small box of clothes, having traversed over fifty different countries." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=53) > "Many of these benefits specifically contribute to the health and happiness of student age travelers that last a lifetime, from enhanced academic performance and increased leadership skills, to an increased sense of self and a greater tolerance of uncertainty." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=74) > "what I've found is that you can't quite understand the true benefits of traveling young until it's been put into context or you've experienced it in your life." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=94) > "Actually visiting places of historical interest and traversing continents increases interest and a better understanding of locations and events. School becomes active learning when you can picture yourself on location." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=104) > "We attended a classical music concert in Austria at the Vienna Operhaus and walked through a World War II bunker that now houses a Hitler Museum." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=125) > "So now when I read about the Blitzkrieg or hear the Blue Danube by Strauss, I'm able to connect the stories and music to the locations and the things I learned into the place and time of these events." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=141) > "On the road, calculating time and distance was a daily occurrence, and making quick exchange rate calculations had to be second nature, or we risked botching a market negotiation or changing currency at an unfavorable rate." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=160) > "I can't say for sure if traveling really did increase my academic performance. Perhaps it did. But I can say that I do find a number of topics pique my interest simply because I have had firsthand experience." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Learning on location · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=184) > "When you travel, it has been shown that you become more self-aware. You discover things about yourself, your values, and priorities that help define your goals, create good habits, and improve your individuality." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Empathy and cultural awareness · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=197) > "From a book written in 1988 titled "Abroad and Beyond: Patterns in American Overseas Education" by Crawford D. Goodwin and Michael Nocht, found that students become more mature, sophisticated, hungry for knowledge, culturally aware, and sensitive." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Empathy and cultural awareness · [03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=208) > "When we traveled through Vietnam, we visited the War Remnants Museum in the Ho Chi Minh City, where the Vietnam War is portrayed as an act of aggression by the French and Americans with accusations of war crimes." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Empathy and cultural awareness · [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=229) > "Not all learning was exciting, fun, and joyful, many times I left certain places in tears. But exploring such events has helped me become a more mature and sensitive person." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Empathy and cultural awareness · [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=258) > "I believe that leaders of tomorrow need a high level of empathy for everyone on this planet, and through travel and exposure to tragic and unfathomable human histories, this empathy and understanding can be cultivated." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Empathy and cultural awareness · [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=268) > "Often we were in places without cell signal, and the state of roads made calculating our time to the next destination almost impossible." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=304) > "I've slept in the van while parked in a Guatemalan petrol station, camped at questionable places in El Salvador, Botswana, and Nicaragua, and been stranded on highways with our home broken down on the side of the road." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=312) > "Some days I didn't know where I was going to be sleeping that night. But a little resourcefulness, some confidence, and often with the help of strangers, we managed, and it wasn't all that scary." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=336) > "Boarding a sleeper bus from Varanasi to Delhi in India takes a lot of courage for a small-town Canadian girl, and I know I can do it. I know because I've done it." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=354) > "Every time the van slowed down, it would stall and not be able to start up again. We would have to wait for an hour every time this happened in order to continue on." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=371) > "It broke down as if it were the bus in the movie Speed, so we had to drive along roads of Namibia going no slower than 60 kilometers an hour." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Tolerance for uncertainty · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=380) > "One of my favorite aspects of long-term travel is how, over time, living your life becomes separated from where you are and where you're from. Everywhere can be home, and anywhere can be comfortable." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=403) > "One such researcher, Shelley Carson of Harvard University, states that travel exposes you to new people and often to new cultures, religions, languages, and customs, as well as to new places, and that this exposure broadens a traveler's perspective," >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Creativity and inspiration · [07:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=446) > "What I've taken away from all those years on the road is, simply put, traveling has made me a better person, more understanding, more empathetic, and most of all, it brought me closer to my family." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Family time on the road · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=511) > "if Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle has taught me anything, getting quality family time can prove to be invaluable." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Family time on the road · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=527) > "Traveling around with my family from ages 10 to 13 did give me a passion for learning, and I hope I am more self-aware and culturally sensitive." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=534) > "That you shouldn't walk the banks of the Ganges River first thing in the morning if you are uncomfortable with full frontal male nudity." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=557) > "Always check your visa's expiry date, and never leave food unattended around baboons. Also, your passport is your most valuable possession." >, Lillian Jackson, guest · topic: Travelling at a young age · [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1068332_high.mp3#t=564) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge 2021 | Edu Inc excels - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-05-28-allan-gray-entrepreneurial-challenge-2021/ - Date: 2021-05-28 (as at 2021-05-28) - Guest: Mr Tshuma, Chad Fanaroff, Aidan Quinn, Cian Quinn - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, business simulation game, experiential learning, business pitch, role of the teacher, stock market trading - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1046444 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Mr Tshuma - Business Studies teacher · Education Incorporated - Guided Education Incorporated learners through the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, helped prepare a learner for the national top-ten pitch, and runs a JSC stock trading club activity with five learners. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Chad Fanaroff - learner · Education Incorporated - Placed in the top twenty of the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, running a medical-industry business named HealthTech in the game; also trades in a JSC schools stock competition with Mr Tshuma. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Aidan Quinn - learner · Education Incorporated - Placed in the top twenty of the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, running a healthcare business named Voltech in the game. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Cian Quinn - learner · Education Incorporated - Grade nine learner selected among the top ten in the country for the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge business pitch, where he pitched a bookkeeping app. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The headmaster of Edu Inc, an independent IEB school in Fourways, Johannesburg, talks with Business Studies teacher Mr Tshuma and three learners about the 2021 Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge. In this virtual business game, Chad and Aidan placed in the top twenty and Cian reached the national top ten for the business pitch. The learners describe how the game worked: mentor dialogue, hiring, marketing campaigns and profits. They give advice for future players. Mr Tshuma argues the game covers most of the Business Studies syllabus in practice for little cost. The conversation also covers a JSC stock trading competition and Cian's bookkeeping-app pitch. **Key ideas** - Mr Tshuma argues the game rewarded calculated risk-taking and covers roughly eighty to ninety percent of the Business Studies syllabus in practical form. ([02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=127) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1228)) - All three learners stress that reading every mentor conversation and computer prompt was essential to making the right decisions in the game. ([05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=329) [06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=375) [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=954) [47:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2852)) - Chad and Aidan say hiring on experience rather than cost mattered, because overpaying less experienced staff drained funds towards bankruptcy. ([12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=762) [17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1024)) - Mr Tshuma holds that the game beats a field tour because learners practise concepts themselves and learn from mistakes across repeated stages. ([25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1558) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1601) [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1635)) - Cian pitched a bank-linked bookkeeping app, arguing that inaccurate records make it hard for small businesses to get credit. ([34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095) [34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2124)) - Mr Tshuma credits Cian's final pitch with improving once he put an element of himself into it, echoing the coach's feedback Cian describes. ([39:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2386) [41:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2495) [43:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2616)) - Mr Tshuma sees the teacher's role as facilitating and advising, and says the challenge cost only internet access and one hour a week. ([19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1141) [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1409) [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1431)) **Lessons** - Aidan advises future players to read every conversation and complete all the activities in a task, not only the main ones, because each earns points. ([15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=954) [16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=975)) - Aidan's experience shows that effort on assignments paid off: after a one-sentence first assignment he wrote paragraphs. ([24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1481)) - Cian attributes his lower placing to missing the second week task despite a business revenue of over a million rand. ([38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2331)) - Mr Tshuma says marketing means identifying a target market and setting the right price range for it, not just putting a product out. ([22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1339)) - Cian advises seeing a task through before judging it, since that shows its applicability. ([48:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2894) [48:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2898)) **Who it's for:** Teachers and school leaders weighing whether to enter learners in the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge or similar simulations, Business Studies teachers seeking practical learning, and high school learners planning to take part next year. **Facts stated in the episode** - Chad and Aidan were in the overall top twenty and took the top two slots in the second week, according to Mr Tshuma. ([01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=107)) - Cian was the only grade nine learner in the top ten pitches and apparently the youngest. ([03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=232)) - The pitch prizes were forty-five thousand rand for first and thirty-five thousand for the runner-up. ([04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=249)) - The host notes Chad's business earned seven hundred thousand rand in four weeks. ([10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=616)) - Cian estimates his business made about one point two million rand but he missed the second week task. ([38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2331)) - The JSC stock game's top group shares ten thousand rand at year end. ([29:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1767)) - Mr Tshuma says the team reached position five for the month and 26th overall. ([31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1862)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge?** A: Mr Tshuma describes it as an annual event in which high school learners start and run a virtual business, choosing location, finance, target market and advertising, with weekly assignments and a final business pitch. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=58) [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2023)) **Q: What are the prizes for the Allan Gray business pitch?** A: Mr Tshuma says forty-five thousand rand goes to the top position and thirty-five thousand to the runner-up to get the business started. ([04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=249)) **Q: How do you do well in the Allan Gray virtual business game?** A: Aidan and Chad say to read every mentor conversation and computer prompt, complete all activities for points, and hire on experience rather than cost. ([12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=762) [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=954) [16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=975) [17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1024)) **Q: Is a business simulation game worth class time for Business Studies?** A: Mr Tshuma says it covers about eighty to ninety percent of the syllabus in practice, lets learners practise human resources and marketing, and he does not regret the one hour a week. ([20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1228) [21:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1283) [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1431)) **Q: How much does it cost a school to run the Allan Gray challenge?** A: According to Mr Tshuma it was free; learners only needed internet access and the right gadgets, plus one hour a week of class time. ([23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1409) [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1431)) **Q: What business did the youngest top-ten pitcher propose?** A: Cian pitched a bookkeeping app linked to a business's bank so it can keep accurate financial records without a bookkeeper and more easily get credit. ([34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095) [34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2124)) **Q: What improved Cian's business pitch before the final?** A: Cian says a coach pointed out he had left out his future plans and himself; Mr Tshuma says the final pitch included an element of himself, which helped with the judges. ([39:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2386) [41:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2495) [43:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2590) [43:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2616)) **Q: How does the JSC schools stock trading game work?** A: Chad says it runs with the real stock market using fake money, with ten thousand rand for the top group; Mr Tshuma says it takes research and instinct about when to buy and sell. ([29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1745) [29:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1767) [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1905)) ### Passage: Aidan explains the marketing campaign segments [14:00-15:47, 293 words] Note (AI): A learner describes how class, age and media preference data drove campaign choices, and how trial and error across three attempts led to success. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=840): > And what, what was your favorite part of the five week experience? Aidan Quinn, guest [14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=843): > Marketing campaign. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=844): > Why did you enjoy that? Aidan Quinn, guest [14:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=846): > One thing that it made you only punished anyone who didn't actually read any information about it. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=852): > Okay. Aidan Quinn, guest [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=853): > Since the three, you had three different segments. Segment where you had to, you got to see the different groups. You got to see like what they will provide for you. Like you had the poor, the middle class and the rich. And they would each give you different, for each time you did it, they'll give you different statistics. And you had to choose if your one would better, if yours better suits the different people. And then on that same one, they showed you what class likes. If they're like media, if they're like, and they also showed you the age. I forgot to, mention that. It started out as like teen, like children to teens, and then to like adults, and then old. The adults would usually represent the middle class or the higher class, and they showed you the what each likes, and you would have to choose, and there was another activity with a where you had to choose what you are going to order for the different, groups, and if you knew the information, you could order an entire, you could only order one thing and do very well. But there was also the, at the top of that same one, there was the eight where you had to select the age group, that was a bit difficult to see. But despite that, it was a very fun child and error experience, since first time I didn't get it right, second time I didn't, but the last time I did. ### Passage: How the challenge maps onto the Business Studies syllabus [20:10-22:42, 445 words] Note (AI): The teacher walks through registration, funding, human resources and marketing in the game and links each to syllabus topics, making the case for classroom use. Mr Tshuma, guest [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1210): > with the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, at the end of the game, it feels like you would have gone through a whole year of, a field tour. Like, you've visited companies, like the learners were actually on attachment for the whole year, attachment related to business studies, because the, the amount of information and the experience that they get Through the different stages of the game is practically like eighty to ninety percent of the syllabus in Business Studies. Like from grade ten to grade twelve, the whole managing of the business and the concept and the playing of the game is centered around business concepts. Like, for example, starting from registration, the players had to do registration of the companies, and in, in registering the companies, they had to choose a suitable form of business ownership. These are all concepts that are taught, especially in grade, from grade nine to grade twelve. they had to go through processes like accessing funding, and, looking at the different options available for funding businesses, and they were all given there in, in the game, and which is also part of the syllabus. And the creative aspect that the two gentlemen have mentioned is that of the human resources or the human capital function. These are taught in theory, but during the game, the learners had an actual chance to practice human resources or effective human resources management, and they did that extremely well, especially for our two gentlemen. When we do these, concepts in class, learners might get the theoretical understanding of it, but it's different from when they actually have to practice it. There is also the element that they mentioned about the marketing, which is another key topic and a key chapter. It covers a greater part of our tier one chapter, especially in grade eleven and twelve. Marketing is a huge element of the business studies syllabus. It covers a greater percentage of the whole syllabus. So now, every time when I have to do the topic in class, when I have to discuss with the learners, it's easier for me to make reference to the game. What does marketing involve? Now, the gentlemen, they know very well that marketing is not just about putting the product out there, but we have to be able to identify your target market, and at the same time, also be able to come up with the right price range for that target market, so that your product will be effective and is, made available to the right people, the right audience, and all that. So I would say that it's such a huge form of learning platform. ### Passage: Blended learning versus a field tour [25:58-27:32, 257 words] Note (AI): The teacher argues that practising concepts in the game beats being told about departments on a field tour, and that repeated stages let learners correct mistakes. Mr Tshuma, guest [25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1558): > Well, after the Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, it became very clear that the game itself is not just a competition, but also an opportunity for teachers and learn- and learners and schools in general to use as a form of embracing blended learning. We do a lot of theoretical work, or we do a lot of theory in class, but learners, they lack that practical experience or practical application of the concepts that we teach or that they learn in class. So with a game like, Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge, it gives them that experience, that firsthand experience that will enable them to relate or apply the theory that they learn in class in practice. It's also even better than the actual field tour, because when you go for a field tour, you get told how different departments work. How, for example, the administration department functions, how the marketing department functions, the production department, all the different departments, you get told how they work by the people that work there. But with the game itself gives the learners the opportunity to actually practice those concepts themselves to do trial and error. It helps them also to correct their own mistakes because there's different opportunities available through the different stages. For example, with the marketing campaign, they had to do three marketing campaigns. So each marketing stage would enable them to learn from their previous mistakes. So all in all, it just gave them that practical experience, which makes it easier for them to understand concepts during class. ### Passage: The bookkeeping app pitched for small businesses [34:55-37:31, 450 words] Note (AI): The youngest top-ten pitcher sets out the problem (poor records blocking credit) and his bank-linked app solution in his own words. Cian Quinn, guest [34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095): > Well, the business that I pitched was a, it was a, it was a bookkeeping app, and it was so that your business could have, you know, accurate and, and, and reliable business records and financial records without having to, you know, employ like a bookkeeper, and so that it's easier for businesses, especially in this country, to get credit applications, because if you don't have reliable, or if you don't have very accurate bookkeeping or, or financial records, it is very hard for you to go to credit providers and for them to provide financial support to you and financing, and so A business like that, I saw, is a very opportune thing in this country, especially with the amount of businesses in this country that are popping up with all of the, you know, young entrepreneurs, and because of the fact that there are so many of them, and they don't have these, you know, records that they need, a lot of them don't get off, don't get off the ground, or don't get as far as they need to, to be able to supply for the people. They're families, they don't have enough options to not only supply for their family, but for their communities, and maybe to benefit the economy, so. Gershom Aitchison, host [36:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2168): > So, if I'm understanding it correctly, your target market was SMEs, young startup businesses, young entrepreneurs, giving them an opportunity to fiscally manage their companies so that they could get financing if they needed it further down the line, or as startup finances, for example. Cian Quinn, guest [36:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2184): > Yeah, so it was focused around financing as well, so that our business Would all of the app would be used in conjunction with the business, you know, and then also the banking institution that they used. And so the app will be linked to that banking institution and can help, you know, create these records and to keep track of the records without actually needing anyone to interpret the, the reports. So the businesses and the banks could become more independent, but more, I would say more interdependently independent, where they could become better at doing what they do by using everyone else. And obviously our business would need access to all of the bank accounts. Gershom Aitchison, host [37:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2226): > Sure. Cian Quinn, guest [37:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2227): > But, you know, this was beneficial because all of the reports would be automatically classified into, you know, finances and not just things like, oh, I bought a McFlurry the other day because I wanted to, but more or less finances and the, the transactions related to the business itself through the, through the bank accounts. And it was definitely something that Really multifaceted and I think has a lot of uses. ### Passage: Preparing Cian for the national final pitch [39:46-42:14, 484 words] Note (AI): The teacher explains how the pitch was polished for judges and parents, and why putting himself into the pitch strengthened Cian's presentation. Mr Tshuma, guest [39:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2386): > The pitch was the last assignment of the game. It was actually the last activity that had to be done in the game. And, during that week, I think it was our final week in school, just before we closed schools for first term. And at that point in time, I wasn't aware which learners did the pitch or which ones did not, because it was optional. I think our main focus was just on the log standings and the, our positions on the overall standings. And I wasn't even aware that Kian did, pitch. There were quite a number of students that had made intentions to pitch, but I'm not sure who did because he closed schools immediately after that. And then when I got the news that, Cian had been selected amongst the top ten in the country, I wasn't surprised really because I know Cian, when it comes to things like presentations, is just eloquent, is very good. He's, he's just got the thing for it. So I wasn't sur- surprised as such, but we had to work through his presentation in preparation for the final pitch, because the final pitch had to be done in front of the judges, in front of parents, school heads, and teachers as well, and I think you're also there for the other part of the presentation, Mr. Edgson. So we had to make sure that it was polished and it was perfect and it was competitive enough because it's best in the country, like out of the whole country, it's the best ten pitches, so he had to up his game by whatever means. Initially, his pitch was okay, the idea was good, but the way that he had presented it wasn't as, top-notch as we would expect it to be, so he polished up on that part. And I must say that on the day, on the final day, or just the day before he did the final pitch, I knew he had actually changed, he turned it around because initially it was just a business idea or the app being put out there, but in the final pitch he did put an element of himself, which means he actually is part and parcel, he applies himself emotionally and, him and the business idea are not separated and that, it worked for him as, an extra, I think. It just earned him like that, additional Acceptance amongst the judges, and the fact that he was one of the youngest to pitch really made a huge impact, and, is something to be proud of. It's already an achievement to me, to the school, and to him, I think he should be proud of that, because out of more than eight thousand learners across the country, and he becomes to be one of the youngest to be amongst the top ten already, that's a victory. ### Passage: Coaching feedback and losing the Kula name [43:10-45:59, 536 words] Note (AI): Shows how coaching feedback reshaped the pitch and how a name clash discovered minutes before speaking forced a last-minute change. Cian Quinn, guest [43:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2590): > that was the coaching session, cause we missed the first one. but that one that we did attend, that was good. It was definitely, I mean, Kyle was paying a lot of attention, but it looked, a lot of the time I would say something that, you know, was central in my pitch, and he would look up and stop doing what he was doing, and I'm like, oh no, did I, is it not good enough? And, and I think my nerves definitely spiked when he said that I forgot, like, an entire thing about my future, but the, the plans for the future, and about myself being in it, and at that moment I was like, You know, I'm done. But then he was like, as long as you add that, you know, you're good, because right now I'm 100% backing you. And I was like, okay, I mean, that was pretty surprising. I mean, after that, the only thing I was nervous for was the day after that, because I had to spend a lot of time working on the pitch again. You know, coming up with the name, long story short, the name I did come up with, literally right before I had to speak that it's already taken. That definitely messed up the speech, oh, not the speech, but the pitch a little bit. I had some cool catch line, but, you know, it was definitely nerve-wracking when I had to say the pitch both times, before it was edited and after it was edited. Gershom Aitchison, host [44:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2673): > So tell me what the Name ended up being and what the cool pitch line was. Cian Quinn, guest [44:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2679): > Well, initially, I was like, okay, well, my dad came up with this name. I was like, Dad, I need a name, trying to think of something, and, and my dad found, so in Zulu, Kula, K H, I think it's K H U L A, is bookkeeper or accountant. And for a second I was like, you know, nah, nah, that's boring. But then, you know, it really stuck, and then I came up with a tagline that was at the end of my speech, and I said it to Mr. Tuma, and I was so proud of myself. I think it was Grow Your Business, Grow With Kula, and I was like, damn, this is gonna be like, you know how you have Kaluta, Kaluta Airways, they have the, the super cool, super chill, the nice lady speaking, I'm not a nice lady, but regardless, I was so proud of myself, and I was like, if the rest of the pitch doesn't get them, I think this will, this is, this phrase is worth forty-five thousand rand. And then right before I'm going, the person before me does an agricultural business, and then one of the judges is like, hey, have you heard of the Business Kula? And I'm like, maybe he's talking about mine, I don't know. And then he talks about what they do, and I look up and I'm, I looked him up. yeah, I had to just get rid of every Kula in my speech, so that was pretty, it was pretty sad, yeah. ### Quotes > "business is basically just an empire built on cards, and if the wind blows, everything falls." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · [13:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=817) > "Don't skip any, whenever it tells you to read the computer, read the computer." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=954) > "I don't regret the one hour slot allocated for each grade to play the game per week. It was really worth it." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1431) > "They just told you what to do, and you do it. Nothing in between." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1678) > "if the rest of the pitch doesn't get them, I think this will, this is, this phrase is worth forty-five thousand rand." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [45:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2729) > "Once you name the business, if McDonald's changed its name now, it would just die." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2782) > "when something is applicable, it's usually successful." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [48:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2898) > "Even if I don't win, I've learned a lot that I'll need." >, Cian Quinn, guest · [49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2949) > "we are small in size, but, we are big in terms of quality." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · [50:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=3039) > "I believe that each and every learner has got something in them." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · [51:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=3060) ### Claims > "The Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge is an annual event whereby high school learners are given an opportunity to start and run a virtual business." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=58) > "Chad and Aidan, actually in the top twenty, they managed to be in the top two for the second week." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=107) > "because the whole game was about being able to make calculated risks that would pay off at the end of the day." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: business simulation game · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=127) > "Kian was the only grade nine, and apparently he is the youngest of all of them." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: business pitch · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=232) > "Forty-five thousand for, the top position, and thirty-five thousand for the runner-up to get the business started." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=249) > "But what a lot of people did that I saw is that they skipped through the reading parts of what the mentor and the other of the members of your team were saying," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: business simulation game · [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=329) > "It was fairly simple to start, as long as you didn't skip anything. And then, but it eventually got much harder, you had to use more decision making," >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=375) > "It taught us about mainly how running a business isn't as simple as just sitting at a desk and waiting for your employees to work." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: experiential learning · [06:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=408) > "English played a big part in comprehension skills and reading the sentences, finding the right words that were directing you into the right path." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: experiential learning · [07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=458) > "So, my business in the game was to allow patients to be able to contact their doctors through an app. And also receive test results, blood results, and all of that, and also prescriptions." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: business simulation game · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=511) > "Seven hundred thousand rand in, in four weeks is, quite an achievement." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: business simulation game · [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=616) > "And my vision was to like bring better healthcare to areas where they either don't have enough money to pay for the healthcare or they don't have good enough healthcare." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=628) > "but then when I was doing the business pitch, my dad pointed out that, a free healthcare company that's also non-profit isn't a good idea." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=671) > "I saw that they're trying to scam me out of my money, and throughout the entire game, I made sure to read not only how much they cost, but their experience." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=762) > "business is basically just an empire built on cards, and if the wind blows, everything falls." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [13:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=817) > "Don't skip any, whenever it tells you to read the computer, read the computer." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=954) > "Make sure you've completed all of the challenge for that task, since obviously those give you points. And if you only did the main ones, you wouldn't get as much points as if another person did all of them." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [16:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=975) > "If you didn't play the game properly, you would run out of funds eventually if you were putting too many expenses, hiring the wrong people with lower experience, but for a higher expense," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: business simulation game · [17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1024) > "the teacher's role basically is just to facilitate and to give some motivation and advice where necessary." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: role of the teacher · [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1141) > "the amount of information and the experience that they get Through the different stages of the game is practically like eighty to ninety percent of the syllabus in Business Studies." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: experiential learning · [20:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1228) > "These are taught in theory, but during the game, the learners had an actual chance to practice human resources or effective human resources management," >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: experiential learning · [21:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1283) > "marketing is not just about putting the product out there, but we have to be able to identify your target market, and at the same time, also be able to come up with the right price range for that target market," >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: experiential learning · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1339) > "It's not that expensive financially because it's, they just needed to have access to the internet and to have the right gadgets," >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: role of the teacher · [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1409) > "I don't regret the one hour slot allocated for each grade to play the game per week. It was really worth it." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: role of the teacher · [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1431) > "I spent a while, since on the first assignment, I was really lazy. I put like one sentence for each. Then I decided that that probably wouldn't be a good idea," >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1481) > "It's also even better than the actual field tour, because when you go for a field tour, you get told how different departments work." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: experiential learning · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1601) > "For example, with the marketing campaign, they had to do three marketing campaigns. So each marketing stage would enable them to learn from their previous mistakes." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: experiential learning · [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1635) > "They didn't try to over-exaggerate different colors to make the players more interested in playing the game more. They just told you what to do, and you do it. Nothing in between." >, Aidan Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1670) > "The game participates like a actual stock market, it runs with the real life stock market, even though you're using fake money." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: stock market trading · [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1745) > "So at the end of the year, the top learners who are the top group gets ten thousand rand split between them." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: stock market trading · [29:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1767) > "in the past two weeks we reached position five for the whole month, and then we're on position 26th for, like, overallly," >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: stock market trading · [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1862) > "trading is based on buying and selling of stocks, which involves buying the stocks when they are low and selling them when they are high," >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: stock market trading · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1905) > "I think It's kind of what learning is going to look like in the future, or valuable learning is going to look like in the future." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: experiential learning · [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=1939) > "It was almost a conclusion, I would, I would say, cause it was also the last task that you had to do, the last thing that you had to complete for week five," >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2023) > "the business that I pitched was a, it was a, it was a bookkeeping app, and it was so that your business could have, you know, accurate and, and, and reliable business records and financial records without having to, you know, employ like a bookkeeper," >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [34:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2095) > "if you don't have very accurate bookkeeping or, or financial records, it is very hard for you to go to credit providers and for them to provide financial support to you and financing," >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2124) > "the main reason why I didn't place as high as I thought I would've with, with like one point two million rand was probably because I didn't do the second week task." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2331) > "in the final pitch he did put an element of himself, which means he actually is part and parcel, he applies himself emotionally" >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: business pitch · [41:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2495) > "he said that I forgot, like, an entire thing about my future, but the, the plans for the future, and about myself being in it," >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [43:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2616) > "one of the judges is like, hey, have you heard of the Business Kula? And I'm like, maybe he's talking about mine, I don't know." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [45:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2741) > "Once you name the business, if McDonald's changed its name now, it would just die. The business would die." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2782) > "But this, in this game, all the information that's given to you is important, important to you." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business simulation game · [47:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2852) > "a lot of the time seeing something through will show you its applicability, and when something is applicable, it's usually successful." >, Cian Quinn, guest · topic: business pitch · [48:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=2894) > "we are small in size, but, we are big in terms of quality." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · [50:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=3039) > "I believe that each and every learner has got something in them. They just need to find it, and they can only find it if they do explore or whatever opportunity comes their way." >, Mr Tshuma, guest · topic: role of the teacher · [51:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1046444_high.mp3#t=3060) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) A review of the 2021 challenge by the Edu Inc Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Team Education Incorporated participated in the prestigious annual Allen Grey Entrepreneurship challenge for high school students and three of the school's students made it to the top 20 finalists for this year in a competition where more than 8000 learners from all over the country participated. In this podcast, Headmaster Mr Atchison engages in a conversation with the three participating learners (Chad, Aidan and Cian) as well as their Business Studies teacher, Mr Tshuma, in reliving their experience in the challenge and sharing the lessons learned. Allan Gray Entrepreneurial Challenge · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## BIG vs small - how to choose the right school for your child - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-04-08-big-vs-small-how-to-choose/ - Date: 2021-04-08 (as at 2021-04-08) - Guest: Selwyn Marx, Ishan Singh - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Big versus small schools, Relationships and learning, History of mass schooling, Customised education, Sport and school choice, Teamwork and collaboration, Starting a boutique school - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1021559 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Selwyn Marx - Headmaster · Hamilton House - Principal or head of two schools for the last 27 years. Founder of Hamilton House, a new boutique school running from grade eight to twelve, planned around about a hundred children and focused on mathematical problem solving. In their own words: > "So I've been the principal or head of two schools for the last 27 years. They were both relatively small schools, and through the processes of managing those schools and the appreciation that people had for what we were doing, in both of those schools, we suffered from growth." [09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### About the guest: Ishan Singh - Deputy Headmaster · Education Incorporated - Did not set out to be a teacher and did not start off studying teaching; chose it through his studies and personal development. Teaches at Education Incorporated and is part of its leadership team. In their own words: > "I didn't intend to be a teacher, and that sounds strange in a, in a career development way, but my, my point is that I chose to be a teacher. I didn't start off studying it." [14:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=874) > "As part of the leadership team, I don't see it so much as a job description, but rather as an opportunity to do more of that and to be part of the big picture that facilitates that," [15:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=939) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A panel of school leaders discusses how and why parents might choose a small school over a big one. Selwyn Marx, founder of Hamilton House, draws on 27 years as a head. Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison and Ishan Singh speak from Education Incorporated, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, Grades 4 to 12, with small classes by design. Topics include the Dunbar number, the factory-era origins of large schools, relationships as the basis of learning, big-school agility during COVID, when families switch schools, whether sport justifies a big school, and how teamwork and discipline work in small, collaborative classrooms. **Key ideas** - Gershom defines a small school as 100 to 150 students, based on the Dunbar number. Selwyn argues the 150 limit should apply to the whole school community, teachers and pupils together. ([01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=67) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=99) [02:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=131)) - Selwyn and Gershom argue that learning depends on relationships. Ishan adds that effective communities are ones where you know others and are known. ([03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=206) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=210) [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=217) [36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2162)) - Selwyn traces large schools to the Industrial Revolution, when the state needed cost-effective mass education. He says technology is now bringing small schools back into vogue. ([04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=257) [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=334) [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=349) [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=373)) - Selwyn says big schools teach to the middle of the bell curve, so children who need extension or support suffer. He adds that large schools are conservative and slow to adapt. ([09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547) [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=648) [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=709) [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=709)) - Jacqueline argues that COVID showed big schools are not agile. She holds that small schools are the model of the future because children now expect a customised experience. ([13:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=832) [13:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=834) [19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1154) [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1943)) - The panel questions choosing a school for its sport. Selwyn says the priority should be thinking and problem solving, and that a big school is not needed to meet sporting needs. ([22:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1340) [22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1357) [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1419) [24:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1476)) - Ishan and Selwyn argue that teamwork can be built in classrooms and through camps, not only through sport. Selwyn says small-group classroom work is almost impossible in big schools. ([29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1788) [30:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1815) [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1912) [34:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2082)) - Selwyn contrasts authoritarian order in big schools with authoritative, transparent relationships in small ones, where pupils cannot hide in the crowd. ([33:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1980) [33:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2008) [34:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2045)) **Lessons** - Selwyn suggests that parents consider whether a large school will serve a child who needs extension or extra support, since big schools target the middle of the bell curve. ([09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547) [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=648)) - Jacqueline suggests parents be realistic about sporting ambitions, citing a head whose school produced four or five national players in thirty to forty years. ([24:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1476)) - Jacqueline advises that a child who takes up a sport, hobby or club at the start of a term should see it through. ([27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1625) [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1633)) - Selwyn advises expecting every child to explore a combination of activities, including music, sport, culture, arts and science, in their formative years. ([27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1655)) - Gershom notes that in a leadership camp the least competitive, most collaborative team won. ([30:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1815) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1859)) **Who it's for:** Parents in South Africa deciding between a large school and a small independent school, especially those whose child is not being seen in a big school, or who weigh sport heavily in the choice. Also useful for educators considering work in, or founding, a small school. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom cites the Dunbar number, which he first read about in Malcolm Gladwell's work, as the basis for a 100 to 150 student school. ([01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=67)) - Jacqueline says the Drakensberg Boys Choir school takes on average 100 to 110 students. ([02:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=131)) - Selwyn has been principal or head of two schools for 27 years. ([09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547)) - Edu Inc runs from grade four to twelve; Hamilton House runs from grade eight to twelve. ([16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=968)) - Jacqueline says Edu Inc has been open nine years and has had four pupils earn green blazers. ([25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1541)) - Selwyn says high schools typically take 140 to 200 children per grade. ([20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1236)) - Hamilton House plans to keep numbers at about a hundred children. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=782)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What counts as a small school?** A: Gershom defines it as 100 to 150 students, based on the Dunbar number. Selwyn argues the whole school community, teachers and pupils, should be capped at about 150, the most people we can relate to personally. ([01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=67) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=99) [02:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=131)) **Q: Why did schools become so big in the first place?** A: Selwyn says the state took over education during the Industrial Revolution to train factory workers and manage idle youth. It sought cost-effective mass production, so schools grew bigger and bigger. ([04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=257) [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=334) [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=349)) **Q: What are the downsides of a big school for my child?** A: Selwyn says big schools target teaching to the middle of the bell curve, leaving children who need extension or support to sink or swim. He adds that high-school grades of 140 to 200 can be unmanageable for some children. ([09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547) [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=648) [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1236)) **Q: When do parents usually move children to a school like Edu Inc?** A: Gershom says families often move in grades four and five, when a child isn't fitting the big-school mould and wants to be 'seen'. Edu Inc closed its foundation phase and now starts at grade four. ([16:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=991) [17:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1053)) **Q: Can a small school still offer sport?** A: Selwyn says a big school is not needed for sport. His school runs collaborations and many smaller sporting options. Gershom says small schools can accommodate elite athletes' schedules, and Jacqueline notes Edu Inc has had four children in green blazers in nine years. ([25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1516) [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1541) [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1736)) **Q: Do kids need to specialise in sport early to succeed?** A: Selwyn argues they don't. He cites research that entry in the late teens or early twenties gives an equal chance of reaching the top echelons, with less risk of burnout. ([26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1573)) **Q: How do small schools handle big crises like COVID?** A: Jacqueline says big schools were not agile enough and their online offerings took long to iron out, whereas small schools can get on top of a crisis quickly. ([13:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=832)) **Q: What does a typical classroom look like at Education Incorporated?** A: Ishan says there is no separate group work because everything is group work. The teacher mediates learning rather than teaching information, and every activity is a discussion. ([34:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2078) [34:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2082)) **Q: Why is Hamilton House a high school only?** A: Selwyn says there are very few boutique options at high school level. Gershom attributes this partly to more rigorous registration and oversight. Hamilton House plans about a hundred children with a focus on mathematical problem solving. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=782) [21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1307) [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1324)) ### Passage: How mass schooling grew and why small schools return [04:17-06:27, 359 words] Note (AI): Selwyn traces schooling from small groups around a master, through state-run factory-era schools, to today's renewed interest in small schools. Selwyn Marx, guest [04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=257): > Yeah, well, if you look at education, go back three, four, five thousand years, the practice in the past was that Intellectually curious people banded together in very small groups at the foot of a master. So your Pythagoras and, your Greek masters who actually taught, they had little schools, and they were very effective in passing on information. Later on, the religious organizations took over their role and their job, and they had a particular purpose in their schools. But a radical change took place during the Industrial Revolution, where there was mass migration into the city centers, into the towns. There were people without any purpose and meaning on the, on the streets, young people especially. And then, of course, the factories became a phenomenon in terms of the economy. And so the state began to take over edu, the responsibility of education. And in the state taking over, they probably had two main reasons. One was to put people behind the desks in the factories to make the factories more efficient, so they needed to educate for that particular purpose. The other purpose was to manage the social problem that they had of so many young people without anything to do now on the streets. And so they had to look for cost-effective ways in which to manage that, and so schools just got bigger and bigger and bigger, and they had to be more cost-effective because the state was using people's taxes to make that, work. And we're, we're really stuck in that particular model at the moment, where the state is trying to make education as effective as possible in a mass-produced way at the cheapest possible rate. And people are beginning to actually understand that the state cannot do that job properly because the factory floor is no longer needing people for mass production in the same way that it used to. And technology is changing and giving people access to a different way of being educated. And so the small school is coming back into vogue. It's coming back into meaning, and people are beginning to search for that solution in education. ### Passage: Selwyn on growth, intimacy and the bell curve [09:07-11:21, 387 words] Note (AI): Drawing on 27 years as a head, Selwyn explains what schools lose as they grow and which children are left behind in big schools. Selwyn Marx, guest [09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547): > Yes. So I've been the principal or head of two schools for the last 27 years. They were both relatively small schools, and through the processes of managing those schools and the appreciation that people had for what we were doing, in both of those schools, we suffered from growth. And, and when I say suffered from growth in this sense, that that's a good thing, but it also, we lose, we lose something in that growth as well. So what did we lose? We lost a sense of intimacy and the ability to actually shape the education uniquely for the children in those classes, but we also became a lot more competitive in another sense. And sport, for example, is very, very important to some people, and you can't actually win any matches and games, in a small school environment. And for the big school context, there are quite a number of families and people in that particular context where sport is very, very important to them. If you think about growing your school and actually becoming more effective in terms of reaching those, the, the, the needs of the, of the learners in that particular context, then more and more people want to join. So then you suffer the problem of growth. Now, that becomes more cost effective in terms of on the finan-financial side, but it, we lose something in terms of the intimacy and the value of actually reaching every child, in that class in a uni-unique way. The problem with big schools is that in order to survive your education experience, and let's not think that they cannot be effective in terms of educating, children. They certainly can. But there's a tendency to treat all of those children in that school and fit them into the bell curve. And then you'll, you, you target your teaching to the middle of that bell curve, and you let either peop- the either sectors of that bell curve on each side actually sink or swim in that particular environment. And that's probably the biggest problem in a, in a big school environment. So many children will manage very effectively, but there are a number of people, that don't. Those people that need extension suffer. Those people that need a bit of support tend to suffer. ### Passage: Why families move children to Edu Inc at grade four [16:31-18:49, 391 words] Note (AI): Gershom describes when and why parents move a child from a big private school, and why Edu Inc now starts at grade four. Gershom Aitchison, host [16:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=991): > When we started Edu Inc, we registered from grade one, and we found that in our discussions with parents that a lot of parents, especially parents who are in the socioeconomic demographic that we're in, When the child is born within six months, they've put their child on a waiting list for the private school that the family has always attended or the mom or dad have attended. And usually in the formative, the foundation phase of school, they suddenly realize that their child is not fitting into the mold of the big school and the expectations of the big school. They might be not getting the support that Selwyn spoke about earlier on, and it's forcing them to change their perspective of what schooling should look like. And quite frankly, children are giving more feedback to their parents now. It's the age and the time that we're living in on what they're expecting the education experience to look like. It's not just children are seen and not heard. Children are heard, and we are seeing parents listening to what they're saying. We then found that we didn't have too many students coming in in the foundation phase. So we closed the foundation phase down, and we started in grade four. Essentially, it is the time in the child's learning where they are reading to learn. The foundation phase, grade R one, two, and three, is where they have learned to read. And the academics really start in earnest in terms of actual studying, comprehension, and introduce the introduction of the sciences and the social sciences into the curriculum. So we find students moving into us in grade four and five when the parents and the students have become disillusioned with the legacy that they have in terms of education and the realization that my child needs the support, they have articulated that they want to be in a space where they are seen, and that's the word the children use, and it results in us often having families At one private school, a big private school where the child is thriving and flourishing, and the other child needs that individualized attention and to be seen, they need to have the experience of the small school environment and the relationships that make learning meaningful for them, and that's when they join us. ### Passage: Sport priorities, Elon Musk and parental expectations [22:20-24:49, 425 words] Note (AI): This exchange questions choosing a school mainly for its sport, using the Elon Musk example and one head's figures on national players. Selwyn Marx, guest [22:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1340): > Well, I always used to joke with my parents at times in the prep school environment and said, you know, if I hire a good rugby coach, and that rugby coach actually cannot teach any of the subjects, you don't mind as long as we win the rugby. And I think that that is a problem. I think that the priority in a, in a school environment should be about the thinking, the problem solving, the education. I'm not saying that sport is not important, but sometimes we get it wrong because the emotion of being successful in the sports field somehow emotionally seems to translate into success in the classroom, which is not necessarily the case. And so I think that we need to think differently about the way that we offer education. The whole idea that Schools are sports factories for our national teams, which is, is where our national players come from. They come out of the schooling system at the moment, and so schools, big schools are very effective at actually producing, those sportsmen. But I wonder where the scientists and the people who are actually transforming life for the world are coming from. and I think that, that schools need to be able to be thinking about that, as well. I just think of Elon Musk, for example. Elon Musk was, educated at a traditional top high-end, school in our country. He hated it. It just did not meet his needs. And I'm not saying that every child needs to become an Elon Musk, but it just talks to the point that sometimes we get it wrong. That school is quite famous for its sport, and it, didn't really actually meet the needs of a person like Elon Musk, who's transforming the way that we think about the world in the future at the moment. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1447): > Yeah, it's the, I think it's the legacy thinking trap again. I was chatting to one of the, the local private school heads not so long ago, and he was venting his frustrations on this exact point when he, when he deals with the expectations, the sporting expectations in particular, especially when parents are enrolling a child in a specific school with the aspirations of this child becoming a provincial player or a national player. And he had reached the point where he'd said, well, in the last thirty, forty years, we've produced four or five. So how realistic are you being right now? Are you pushing something that is completely unfair on your child? ### Passage: Teamwork beyond the sports field [29:48-32:21, 412 words] Note (AI): Three speakers argue that teamwork can be built through camps and classroom collaboration, not only sport, and explain why big schools lean on sport for it. Ishan Singh, guest [29:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1788): > It's interesting how much of a parent's attention goes into sport when choosing a school, and the misconception that a small school can't offer that. I think the advantage, as Selwyn pointed out, is that a small school can equally offer opportunities just with collaboration. And a misconception that people often have with sport is that, it's the only way to develop teamwork. What's the advantage of playing sports is teamwork. And as we saw with our leadership camp last week, that teamwork can be achieved through different activities. And sometimes sports brings out competition more than teamwork. And there are some activities that allow people to work as teams and not leave their team behind, which is the objective. And if we circle back to our, introduction where we talked about Victorian schools, the idea of sport there was to make boys who were cut out for the Victorian life as, as a lord of some sort. Whereas here, we're equipping people with the skills of being able to work together and not leave a member of their team behind, regardless of whether it's competitive or not. I'd just like to Gershom Aitchison, host [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1859): > reflect on the fact that the team that won was the team that was the least competitive, and I think that's an important lesson because they were more collaborative as a team working together, and the end result was more favorable. Selwyn Marx, guest [31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1874): > That brings me to the thought of teamwork is not necessarily the domain of sport. It should be the domain of the classroom as well. Nobody builds a bridge on their own. There's a team of people that put together, the final product of a bridge. And if you actually can't work in a team around the desk in the classroom, you can't work as a team on the sports field. they're, they're not entirely the same. However, there are huge similarities between the two concepts. And I think that teamwork is all about social ability to actually interact socially and effectively. And you can do that in the classroom. The problem is that if you've got a big school, Your opportunities to work in small groups and in syndicates in around the classroom setup are almost impossible. And so the big schools tend to use sport to actually develop those social interactions and that teamwork, whereas I'm not quite entirely sure that that teamwork that you develop in the sport is always efficient enough to actually build bridges. ### Passage: Authoritative relationships and classrooms built on group work [33:00-35:26, 400 words] Note (AI): Contrasts authoritarian big-school order with accountable, collaborative small-school relationships, then shows how Edu Inc classrooms run as continuous group work. Selwyn Marx, guest [33:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1980): > The world that I grew up in was an authoritarian world. You respected the authorities above you, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't respect our authority figures. I think that's still very important. But the world has changed. Our children are no longer being taught in the old-fashioned way of saying, well, I said so, so you must do. We are working collaboratively, and our classrooms are becoming collaborative learning spaces. Now, you need to be authoritative and rather than authoritarian in that particular space. The problem with big schools, they tend to lean towards authoritarianism in order to keep good order in that. That school space. Whereas in a small school environment, because you know people and you know, and they can't escape in the crowd, you actually find that your relationships there are more transparent, relationships with teachers and in between learners are more transparent, and people actually learn to live their values in a little bit more transparent manner, in a cooperative manner. You actually can't hide in the crowd and do stuff that is not seen. If you hide in the crowd, you can often do things that are unseen, whereas in a small school environment, you have to be accountable for everything that you do, and I think that's good for collaborative learning and collaborative social development. Ishan Singh, guest [34:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2065): > When you ask the question, should parents choose a small school, I was reflecting on a cluster meeting that I attended once where a fellow teacher asked me, do we do group work? And that question surprised me because I thought about it, and then I realized that we don't do group work as a specific additional activity. Our classrooms are set up such that everything is group work. The, the teacher is there to mediate learning rather than to teach information, and every activity is, is a discussion. so we don't do group work as, as a scheduled activity. Everything is a collaborative, project. And in the same way, like Salman was saying, that, discipline becomes easier because those are things that we can discuss, we can have a conversation about, rather than having to just refer to the rule book. And the, the entire process is organic in that things develop and we use those as learning opportunities. I think it's important that we recognize that people are different and they benefit in different environments. ### Quotes > "the most effective learning takes place within effective relationships." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=210) > "Because large school environments are very, very conservative." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=709) > "The big schools are not agile. They, the machine is just too big and cumbersome." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [13:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=834) > "our main focus is to share a love for learning. It's not to cover curriculum objectives and to tick the boxes that are recommended." >, Ishan Singh, guest · [15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=907) > "But I wonder where the scientists and the people who are actually transforming life for the world are coming from." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1401) > "we've been open for nine years and we've also had four in their green blazers." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1541) > "It shouldn't just be a case of one or two lessons and then saying, no, no, I'm not interested," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1633) > "Nobody builds a bridge on their own." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · [31:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1883) > "You actually can't hide in the crowd and do stuff that is not seen." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · [34:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2045) > "we don't do group work as a specific additional activity. Our classrooms are set up such that everything is group work." >, Ishan Singh, guest · [34:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2078) > "everything at a small school is done intentionally." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2141) > "I don't believe that any significant learning, like Rita Pearson says, can happen without relationship." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2162) ### Claims > "I think a small school is a school between 100 and 150 students, and that's based on the Dunbar number, which I was first introduced to by Malcolm Gladwell in one of his books." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Big versus small schools · [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=67) > "So if we, if we want to effectively manage and understand and network in a group of people in a personal manner, then the Dunbar number says that 150 people are the maximum number that we can relate to." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=99) > "And I think that number's been well proven for a long time in schools like the Drakensberg Boys Choir, who work on this model. They take on average 100 students, 100, 110, whatever it is." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Big versus small schools · [02:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=131) > "It needs that human interaction in order to create learning, and the most effective learning takes place within effective relationships." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Relationships and learning · [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=206) > "Contrary to what teenagers think about popularity, the most effective communities are those in which you are known and you know the other people. So in a small school, you know each other and your teachers know you well," >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Relationships and learning · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=217) > "And so they had to look for cost-effective ways in which to manage that, and so schools just got bigger and bigger and bigger, and they had to be more cost-effective because the state was using people's taxes to make that, work." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: History of mass schooling · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=334) > "And we're, we're really stuck in that particular model at the moment, where the state is trying to make education as effective as possible in a mass-produced way at the cheapest possible rate." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: History of mass schooling · [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=349) > "And technology is changing and giving people access to a different way of being educated. And so the small school is coming back into vogue." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: History of mass schooling · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=373) > "Now people need to be ready for a world of work and have 21st century thinking skills and speaking skills, all of which cannot be effectively developed in a large school environment." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=409) > "And I think that the grades that we have based on age, the promotion and things like that are not based necessarily on mastery, and it's probably a reflection of crowd control more than the actual curiosities that initially started the learning." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: History of mass schooling · [07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=462) > "We need to be able to customize curricula according to the skills that the children have. We need to be able to recognize their learning styles, their, their skill sets," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Customised education · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=509) > "So I've been the principal or head of two schools for the last 27 years. They were both relatively small schools, and through the processes of managing those schools and the appreciation that people had for what we were doing, in both of those schools, we suffered from growth." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Starting a boutique school · [09:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=547) > "We lost a sense of intimacy and the ability to actually shape the education uniquely for the children in those classes, but we also became a lot more competitive in another sense." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=578) > "But there's a tendency to treat all of those children in that school and fit them into the bell curve. And then you'll, you, you target your teaching to the middle of that bell curve," >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=648) > "Because large school environments are very, very conservative. They do not change, they are not able to, respond nimbly to, the needs in the economy, whereas the smaller you are, the more adaptable you can become," >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=709) > "And the whole idea is, again, to keep the numbers at about a hundred in terms of children, with a boutique focus on a skill set that is actually highly, highly, desirable in the world of work at the moment, and which is mathematical problem solving." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Starting a boutique school · [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=782) > "COVID certainly highlighted that. The big schools are not agile. They, the machine is just too big and cumbersome. So when a crisis like COVID hits, they are not nimble enough to respond quickly enough to the needs of those learners and of those families." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Big versus small schools · [13:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=832) > "I didn't intend to be a teacher, and that sounds strange in a, in a career development way, but my, my point is that I chose to be a teacher. I didn't start off studying it." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Relationships and learning · [14:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=874) > "So in a small school, in a boutique school at Education Incorporated, our main focus is to share a love for learning. It's not to cover curriculum objectives and to tick the boxes that are recommended." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Customised education · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=902) > "As part of the leadership team, I don't see it so much as a job description, but rather as an opportunity to do more of that and to be part of the big picture that facilitates that," >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Relationships and learning · [15:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=939) > "Edu Inc, for example, begins in grade four and runs to grade twelve. Hamilton House, you starting in grade eight and moving through to twelve," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Starting a boutique school · [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=968) > "We then found that we didn't have too many students coming in in the foundation phase. So we closed the foundation phase down, and we started in grade four." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Starting a boutique school · [17:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1053) > "families are realizing that the legacy thinking may not be working in their children's favor, and they are expecting a more customized and tailored experience to prepare them better for what they will face in the real world." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Customised education · [19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1154) > "But when you get into high school, you're talking about a hundred and forty to, to two hundred kids in a grade that come into that high school. Now suddenly you find that the numbers really work against some children," >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Big versus small schools · [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1236) > "there aren't any boutique niche opportunities, or very, very few at a high school level, but very, very few. In fact, I only know of you guys and myself that are actually in that high school space," >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Starting a boutique school · [21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1307) > "I think part of the reason for the high school space having so few schools like ours is that there's a lot more rigor in the registration of the school and the oversight." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Starting a boutique school · [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1324) > "I think that the priority in a, in a school environment should be about the thinking, the problem solving, the education. I'm not saying that sport is not important," >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Sport and school choice · [22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1357) > "Elon Musk was, educated at a traditional top high-end, school in our country. He hated it. It just did not meet his needs." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Sport and school choice · [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1419) > "And he had reached the point where he'd said, well, in the last thirty, forty years, we've produced four or five. So how realistic are you being right now?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and school choice · [24:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1476) > "we do cater for the elite sports kids where they are able to focus on the sport because they're at that level. And because of the flexibility that we offer, we are able to accommodate some of their schedules." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and school choice · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1516) > "we've been open for nine years and we've also had four in their green blazers. Just because the agility that we can offer those children is what they need." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and school choice · [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1541) > "your entry level, if it's in the late teens and early twenties, you are just as likely, if you are that kind of person, to make it into the top echelons of sport and probably haven't burnt out" >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Sport and school choice · [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1573) > "I am of the belief that if a child does pick up a sport or a hobby or a club at the beginning of a term, they should see it through." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and school choice · [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1625) > "but I think that there's great value in insisting that a certain combination of activities are expected in the formative years of every child." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Sport and school choice · [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1655) > "So in our case, we've got a girls' school just down the road from us where we collaborate with them in terms of the music." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Sport and school choice · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1736) > "And as we saw with our leadership camp last week, that teamwork can be achieved through different activities. And sometimes sports brings out competition more than teamwork." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Teamwork and collaboration · [30:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1815) > "reflect on the fact that the team that won was the team that was the least competitive, and I think that's an important lesson because they were more collaborative as a team working together," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teamwork and collaboration · [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1859) > "The problem is that if you've got a big school, Your opportunities to work in small groups and in syndicates in around the classroom setup are almost impossible." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Teamwork and collaboration · [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1912) > "There's no doubt in my mind that small schools are the model of the future, and the reason for that is because of the nature of the children we are working with today." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Big versus small schools · [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=1943) > "Now, you need to be authoritative and rather than authoritarian in that particular space. The problem with big schools, they tend to lean towards authoritarianism in order to keep good order in that." >, Selwyn Marx, guest · topic: Teamwork and collaboration · [33:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2008) > "Our classrooms are set up such that everything is group work. The, the teacher is there to mediate learning rather than to teach information, and every activity is, is a discussion." >, Ishan Singh, guest · topic: Teamwork and collaboration · [34:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2082) > "And I think why parents should send their children to small schools is that everything at a small school is done intentionally." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Relationships and learning · [35:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1021559_high.mp3#t=2137) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) This episode is from the EduThink podcast and is an interesting conversation around how and why parents might choose between a big and a small school for their child's education. The guests represent a veritable powerhouse of knowledge and insight and include our very own Mr SIngh. Our guests are: Selwyn Marx | Headmaster at Hamilton House Gershom Aitchison | Headmaster at Education Incorporated Jax Aitchison | Executive Head at Education Incorporated Ishan Singh | Deputy Headmaster Connect with Selwyn on LinkedIn · Connect with Ishan on LinkedIn · Hamilton House · Education Incorporated Boutique School · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Breaking Legacy Thinking in Schools | Francois Naude - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-03-09-breaking-legacy-thinking-in-schools/ - Date: 2021-03-09 (as at 2021-03-09) - Guest: Francois Naude - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Memorable super teachers, Relationship-based education, Teacher recruitment, Small school model, Aspirational pass mark, Assessment as process, Financial transparency, Breaking legacy thinking - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1007777 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Francois Naude - GoTeach - Runs the Super Teachers Unite podcast and a recruitment company called GoTeach that assists schools in finding teachers; has a P.G.C.E., a zoology background, and has taught in a B.Ed program. In their own words: > "I run a recruitment company called GoTeach, where we assist schools in finding the super teachers to come and teach at their schools," [11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=694) > "I, of course, have my bias because I've got a P.G.C.E., like I'm from a zoology background, but I also, I've also taught, in a B.Ed program," [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1093) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Francois Naude, who runs the Super Teachers Unite podcast and the recruitment company GoTeach, interviews Gershom and Jax Aitchison, headmaster and executive head of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12, kept small by design. They recall teachers who shaped them, then explain a relationship-based culture, the Shackleton recruitment process with a faculty interview, a school designed for about 100 pupils, budget transparency through COVID, a 50% pass mark with a 75% aspirational pass tied to Bloom's taxonomy, and assessment that rewards process over end results. **Key ideas** - Jax argues that being seen by teachers, as she was by Mrs. Lorenz, is the core of the relationships the school insists its teachers build with children. ([04:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=262) [04:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=287) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=430)) - Jax holds that school size does not excuse a lack of relationships, citing a Finnish head with over a thousand pupils who walks the playground every break. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=490) [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=501) [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=501)) - Gershom and Jax describe recruiting through the Shackleton process, which frames teaching as the toughest job and includes a recorded lesson and a faculty interview. ([11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=719) [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=752) [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1136) [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1230) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1286)) - Gershom argues that teachers should know their subject well enough not to teach from a textbook, and both prefer a subject degree plus PGCE over a B.Ed. ([16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1006) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1025) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1183)) - Gershom explains the choice of a small school so that relationships and significant difference in fewer lives are possible, drawing on Malcolm Gladwell's figure of 140. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1598) [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1912)) - Jax says expectations communicated clearly are met, hence an aspirational 75% pass above the 50% minimum; Gershom ties 75% to higher cognitive thinking in Bloom's taxonomy. ([10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=612) [39:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2359) [40:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2425) [41:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2514)) - Gershom and Jax describe assessing process rather than end results: non-examinable subjects, rewarding iteration, and treating the matric final as the only event. ([43:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2615) [43:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2633) [44:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2695) [46:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2784)) - Jax and Gershom argue for open budgets with families, staff and pupils, which Jax links to no parents withholding fees during COVID. ([34:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2070) [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2264) [38:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2280)) **The Shackleton recruitment process** ([11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=719) [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=752) [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1136) [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1230) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1286) [24:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1479)) 1. Advertise the job honestly: toughest job in the universe, pays low, rewards immense. 2. Ask for a very short CV and answers to questions about the applicant. 3. Have applicants record themselves giving a lesson. 4. First interview with the heads to test for a meeting of the minds. 5. Second interview with three or four teachers chosen from the faculty. 6. Listen to the faculty's feedback, and explain decisions that go against it. **Lessons** - Gershom says leaders should listen when the faculty panel says no to a candidate the heads liked, which builds buy-in and reciprocal accountability. ([20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1230) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1286) [24:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1479)) - Gershom argues that the agency expected of students must also be given to teachers, because teachers model it. ([25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1512) [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1523)) - Jax advises being discerning about which sector meetings and practices to adopt, rather than following what other independent schools do. ([28:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1681) [29:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1741) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1793)) - Gershom recommends that leaders keep people around them who can challenge them and call out bad decisions. ([35:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2157)) - Jax tells pupils their one job is not to leave the room until they understand, and to set up an intervention if needed. ([43:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2591) [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2599)) **Who it's for:** School owners, heads and governors rethinking recruitment, school size and assessment; teachers and student teachers curious about working at Edu Inc; and parents weighing relationship-based schooling against large independent schools. **Facts stated in the episode** - Edu Inc is designed for 100 pupils, with about 20 faculty and custodial staff including leadership. ([31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1912)) - Gershom says that after nine years the school is at seventy-five percent capacity. ([32:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1936)) - The minimum pass mark is fifty percent and the aspirational pass mark is seventy-five percent. ([10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=612)) - Jax recalls a mega school teacher saying an extension cost sixty million rand without debt. ([33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2039)) - Jax immigrated from Scotland at seven and was placed in what is now grade three. ([04:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=267)) - Gershom attended the Drakensberg Boys Choir from grade six. ([02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=130)) - Gershom cites Malcolm Gladwell's figure of 140 people as the perfect community size. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1575)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How does Edu Inc recruit teachers?** A: Through what they call the Shackleton process: an honest advert framing teaching as the toughest job, a short CV with questions, a recorded lesson, an interview with the heads, then a second interview with three or four teachers. ([11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=719) [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=752) [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1136) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1286)) **Q: Does Edu Inc prefer B.Ed or PGCE teachers?** A: Gershom prefers a subject undergraduate degree plus a PGCE for deeper base knowledge; Jax says they are wary of the B.Ed because it often means someone went from school to varsity and straight back to school. ([16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1006) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1183)) **Q: Why did the Aitchisons choose to keep their school small?** A: Gershom says it was a conscious decision so they could have relationships, citing Malcolm Gladwell's 140 and his choir school experience, and to make significant difference in fewer lives. The school is designed for 100 pupils. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1598) [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1912)) **Q: What is the aspirational pass mark at Edu Inc?** A: The minimum pass is 50%, matching tertiary pass marks and opening a bachelor's pass; the aspirational pass is 75%, a distinction level that Gershom links to higher cognitive thinking in Bloom's taxonomy. ([10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=612) [39:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2359) [39:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2359) [40:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2425)) **Q: Can a large school still build relationships with pupils?** A: Jax says yes: she cites a Finnish head with over a thousand pupils who walks the playground at every break, and argues the number of students is irrelevant compared with the effort to see children. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=490) [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=501)) **Q: How did Edu Inc handle its budget during COVID?** A: Jax says funds were reallocated as needed, such as moving outings money to a Udemy course, without asking parents for extra money, and says no parent withheld fees by the end of 2020. ([34:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2070) [34:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2082) [38:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2280)) **Q: How do Edu Inc teachers assess pupils beyond marks?** A: Gershom made music and movement and technology non-examinable up to grade nine so teachers learn to assess process and reward iteration; Jax says the matric final is the only event and COVID-era factors like handling load shedding counted. ([43:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2615) [43:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2633) [44:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2695) [46:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2784) [47:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2831)) **Q: Can student teachers do a practical at Edu Inc?** A: Gershom says yes: the school is open to student teachers doing a prac, has a good success rate with them, and invites people to set up an appointment for coffee. ([48:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2918)) ### Passage: Jax's teacher Mrs. Lorenz and the Afrikaans sentence [04:22-06:29, 427 words] Note (AI): Shows the experience of being seen by a teacher that Jax later ties to the relationship culture of the school. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=262): > I think one of the teachers that really stood out for me was a teacher I had very early on. We had immigrated from Scotland when I was seven, and they put me into what is now grade three at seven years old, because we started earlier in Scotland and I was reading quite well. And I really struggled. It just didn't go well with me for that first year. And there was one teacher who really took me under her wing, Mrs. Lorenz. It was the first time I'd experienced a teacher really seeing me, not just a face in the classroom, not just a number at a desk. But actually seeing me and spending time with me, not necessarily on the academics, but helping me with the adjustment that I was going through as a young child in a very, very different culture. I remember, well, she did elocution lessons for me when I was trying to learn the transition between this broad Scots accent and the South African accent. And then I remember also having a conversation with her the one day, and she said to me, you know, Jax, at some point your immigrant status is going to fall away, so you're going to have to learn how to speak some Afrikaans. And I was terrified. And she said, no, no, it's fine, we're just going to go very, very slowly. And she had us all sitting on the carpet in her classroom, and every child had to say an Afrikaans sentence before they could get up and go back to their desks. And I sat there absolutely quivering with fear, because I didn't know a single word. And I was the la- all these kids were getting up and saying their sentences and going back to their desks, and there were fewer and fewer and fewer kids on this carpet until, of course, I was left sitting on my own. And she was just so kind about the whole situation, and so supportive about the whole situation. and to this day, I remember the sentence that I ended up having to say, because she coached me through the whole sentence, saying, and everybody cheered, and I went back to my desk, and, you know, that was that. So, yeah, she was definitely a super teacher for me, because she, she saw me, and she literally held my hand through all the stages that I needed help with. She walked that road with me while I was adjusting, so she was just incredible. ### Passage: The Shackleton recruitment process explained [11:59-14:05, 429 words] Note (AI): Explains how the school advertises teaching honestly as the toughest job and throws new hires in the deep end with support. Gershom Aitchison, host [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=719): > The reason we're laughing is that this is a very, if you went and looked on our website at our recruitment, you'd be going, we've never seen this before. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=726): > Yeah. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=726): > We call it the Shackleton process. And it's based on Ernest Shackleton, and he was recruiting men for going to the South Pole, and I'm, it's probably a very abbreviated version of what I'm talking about, but his ad was, men wanted, dangerous journey, pay low, success doubtful, reward If come back is going to be a lot of esteem type of thing. And he kind of put it out there as this is what it's really about. And our Shackleton process exactly that. Teachers wanted toughest job in the universe, pays low, rewards immense, and you're probably going to cry quite a lot along the way. And the thing about Ernest Shackleton is that he ended up on his ice-breaking ship getting caught in, the ice flow. His ship got crushed, everyone got marooned on an ice island, and it took them six months to trek to a place where people could, you know, get them back again and into civilization, and he didn't lose a single crew member because he had the right team members on board with him. And again, that's a very abbreviated version of what happened. But when looking at recruiting teachers, we've done it over many years, and the very strong team we have at the moment is a result of realistically understanding that being a teacher is probably the toughest job in the world. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=798): > So that's how we put it across in the, in the application process. We have a space for a very short CV, but it's more about answering questions about themselves and for us really putting across that the job is not for sissies. Gershom and I don't believe in hiring someone with a fabulous CV with a great brain in their head and then as soon as they walk through the door expecting them to stop thinking. They're going to be hired because they have a brain in their head and then we're going to say, right, go. And so there's a lot of, I suppose there's a lot of deep end. But we do offer the water wings, and we walk the journey with them. There's a lot of training and a lot of support, but it has resulted in an exceptionally strong team, and I think their response to COVID, you know, is a, is a recent example of, of just how strong they actually are. ### Passage: Two interviews: meeting of minds, then faculty panel [20:30-22:30, 478 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step account of involving teachers in hiring to build buy-in and surface authenticity; useful for any school leader. Gershom Aitchison, host [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1230): > Yeah, I think we, there's two things that we've started focusing on that has helped us feel a lot more comfortable and we think brings out the authenticity in it. The first is that we say to the person coming in, you're sitting here because you've got all the qualifications, we like what we saw with your teaching. The interview with us is to see if there's a meeting of the minds, to see if we have a relationship, to see if you're somebody we can work with. Because, you know, ideally, if you're going to have relationships with students, you need to have relationships as leaders of a school with your staff as well, with your teachers, your faculty. And that first interview is just about us finding a connection, some common ground, and just seeing if there's a meeting of the minds in terms of how we're approaching education, what the school's doing, what your thoughts are, et cetera, and where you are in your life. And then the second thing that we do, because we can't always just trust our own judgment, we always bring our own bias and filters to the, to the party, is that we then hand them over to the faculty. So we'll choose three or four teachers, depending on the circumstances, who's available, who's interested in it, and we'll do a second interview where that person goes and talks to the teachers, because ultimately, Jax and I might be the leaders of the school, but we're not in the trenches day to day as the teachers are, and they have to know, this is a dude that I can rely on. If the person's not going to do the job properly, then they're the ones who are going to have to pick up the pieces and help them along, they're the ones that are going to have to train them and help them in that process. So it allows for a lot more buy-in. This is someone we got on, so when things, you know, if the team has chosen this person as well and given us feedback, Then there's buy-in from helping and walking the path with them. And that's probably created the stronger team because prospective teachers are a lot more comfortable asking the tough questions of their teammates. So what is the boss really like? And what is it really like working here? And they'll get a realistic idea of what's happening. We found that at the moment that's working, as Jax and I said, we don't have a fast and hard, it's experimental, and we're trying to keep it as experiential as possible in that place as well. Trying to get to the root of authenticity so that, as you said, there's no BS happening when they're coming in and sitting in the room, you know? ### Passage: Filtering COVID meetings and keeping the ark afloat [29:01-31:10, 415 words] Note (AI): Shows how the heads protected their focus and mental health by tag-teaming sector meetings during COVID. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [29:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1741): > Yeah, we have to be quite discerning, and an example that I can give you of that, that's a bit like the hornet's nest you mentioned earlier, you know, last year when we were in the heat of COVID, We would normally have a Suhiso meeting once a term, for example, but, we were having them once a week while we were really in the throes of, you know, trying to coordinate labor department and education department and everything else, health department, and get all these protocols sorted out. And while a lot of the information was valuable information that we needed to be able to get back to school successfully, there was a lot that wasn't necessarily relevant to a school of our size. We don't do ECD, for example, we start at grade four. And the meetings became, for Gershon, the meetings became a source of our stress. And a source of our depression, what we were really getting quite bogged down by the whole thing. So we made the decision to not attend some of those meetings and to kind of tag team on some of them, that he would do some and that I would do some, and then we would only discuss the pertinent bits with each other, so that we were eliminating a lot of the, the weight that other independent schools were taking on and communicating that was not relevant to us, and we were not achieving the objectives that we needed to achieve. You know, Gavin said something really interesting to us when, when we started the COVID journey. He said to us, you have to just keep your arc afloat. That's your journey here. Keep your arc afloat. And Gershon and I really took that to heart. You know, it was whatever needs to be done here, and our arc is our whole community, the, the children, our staff, and their families, because they're all interlinked and interconnected. So that was the objective we set out to, to survive COVID with. It informed a lot of our decision making and allowed us the space to say, okay, you know what, Gersh, you take that Tahisa meeting and then I'll do the next one and we'll only communicate the bits that are relevant to us. It also stopped us falling into that, that current that everyone was just following for the sake of it, because it was the easy route. So it is unusual, but it's working. ### Passage: Reasoning behind the 50% and 75% pass marks [39:19-41:16, 391 words] Note (AI): Links pass marks to tertiary entry, distinctions and Bloom's taxonomy cognitive levels that pupils can name themselves. Gershom Aitchison, host [39:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2359): > The fifty percent pass mark as a minimum pass mark got two functions. The first is in the tertiary world, in the real world, when you, as an adult, fifty percent is the pass mark for most subjects, in tertiary education, et cetera. And secondly, if you get fifty percent for all your subjects, We feel that you, we've opened the door, the best door possible, which is a bachelor's pass, which allows you access to tertiary education if you want that. So that's why we've set the pass mark at fifty percent. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [39:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2385): > That fifty percent pass remains in place right through until the end of prelims. So they have to maintain their fifty percent pass right through their prelims as well. Gershom Aitchison, host [39:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2393): > And then the aspirational pass is seventy-five percent, and there's also two reasons for that. The first is, that's a distinction in most tertiary spaces as well, and more importantly, it takes you into the higher cognitive thinking. You know, the most of your exams, most of your tests, if they're structured properly, the top thirty percent of those questions are in the higher cognitive space in terms of Bloom's taxonomy. So the first thirty, forty percent might be in your, in your lower cognitive, your middle cognitive being from thirty, forty to about sixty, seventy. But we want our kids to engage in the higher cognitive thinking spaces, which is synthesizing, analyzing, creating. And having an aspirational path to that looks like what the rest of the world looks like in terms of distinctions and, and, and recognition in that space, but also having them wanting to be in the higher cognitive thinking space is very, very important for us. Well, it Jacqueline Aitchison, host [40:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2445): > tells us as teachers as well that The child's passing and moving into that cognitive space. We've covered all three cognitive levels. And again, talking about the cognitive levels, it's a conversation we often have with the kids and the parents. So we're all speaking the same language. You know, if we're going through a test with the children, we'll say to them, what cognitive level is that question? And they can identify it. It's not a mystery. It's not this big magical thing. But the 75% tells us as the teachers that our children are covering all three and moving into the higher third space. ### Passage: Non-examinable subjects and assessing process [43:35-46:14, 535 words] Note (AI): Describes how making some subjects non-examinable pushes teachers to assess process and iteration, then spreads into academic subjects. Gershom Aitchison, host [43:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2615): > So something else we've done, and this is an advantage of being a small school and being the co-founders and still involved in the day-to-day of the school, is that teaching teachers to get away from the quantitative, you know, formal assessment, the summative assessment that Jax was talking about is quite a process because it's hardwired into us, even through our own learning experience. So there are certain subjects at Edu Inc up to grade nine that I've made non-examinable. Music and movement, technology. And what we've done is in that space, instead of following the old ice cream stick bridges and things like that, I introduced them to EGD for one semester, and then I introduced them into building raspberry pies and coding and things like that. And I've challenged the teachers in music and movement, the grade nines make a movie. So the first term is scripting it all out, second term is making all the costumes and that, and the third term is putting it all together and editing. There's so much more skills happening in that space. Soft skills, learning to work as a team and dynamics, and I can't make it to the shoot because of this. Figuring it all out, sometimes we have to jump in and intervene before blood spills. But at the end of the day, it's challenging the teachers to be able to evaluate performance, not on an end result, but on the process that leads to it. And it's part of design thinking for us. We want them to go through a process of fastest path to experience, and if the teacher sees them doing that, they're rewarding that, rather than belabor something that's really not working. Okay, that's not working. Let me try something new. We want teachers to reward the iterative process of failing, starting again, failing, starting again. So we've created subjects where the teachers are able to form opinions based on participation. They create rubrics that are different to what they would do normally just on the base marks. And it's starting to seep into the normal academic subjects because it allows them to see the strengths and what we're seeing and how it's coming out is that the quality of the different types of assessments the teachers are using in the traditional subjects, where they are understanding that different students have different strengths, therefore they are able to demonstrate their skills in different ways. It allows you to have two topics for the same assessment and still have it, but there's one child who is better equipped to do an oral presentation than a formal written presentation, for example, whereas you can get the same test of knowledge And mark it in the same way, but it's presented in two different ways. So we're challenging the teachers to do that through creating a space where they're very uncomfortable, they're not used to being able to evaluate children on things that are not black and white and binary type of thing. And it's an interesting conversation, but it's opening their minds to assessment being different than just putting down a formal assessment, and then you get your marks and that's that. ### Quotes > "So the number of students in your school is irrelevant." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=501) > "If, you know, your next time you get into an airplane, you better hope that your pilot got more than sixty five percent when he was writing his exams." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=631) > "Get out of their way, and some of the most amazing things are coming out of just giving them the space to do stuff, a safe space to do stuff," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=681) > "If you don't like what you're doing, find something else to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=886) > "Teaching is not for sissies. There is no two ways about that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [23:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1399) > "hiring someone is guessing, firing somebody is knowing." >, Francois Naude, guest · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1436) > "It cannot be this dichotomy of an expectation of something for students that you would not have of teachers. It needs to be coherent." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1523) > "There shouldn't be secrets behind the running of your school. This is our school, our community." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [37:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2264) > "you tell children what your expectations are, you communicate with them about that, and they get there. That's what happens." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [41:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2514) > "Don't leave the room until you understand what's been taught that day." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [43:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2599) > "It's such a flat line and we look for so much more depth." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [47:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2853) > "and you talk about being non-mainstream, we're mainstream but small." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [49:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2955) ### Claims > "I was very fortunate to, in grade six, go to the Drakensberg Boys Choir, and I think that was the first time that I really took note of teachers who invested in me." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=130) > "he ended up jumping on the desk and having a kind of a eureka moment that kind of got all our attention, and it doesn't matter what he was teaching that day, it was just the excitement about maths." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [02:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=165) > "he was a very strict man, almost tyrannical in his approach to the discipline and things like that, but his personal investment and the path that he walked with every one of us, especially with, you know, with me, it changed my life." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=182) > "We had immigrated from Scotland when I was seven, and they put me into what is now grade three at seven years old, because we started earlier in Scotland and I was reading quite well. And I really struggled." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [04:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=267) > "It was the first time I'd experienced a teacher really seeing me, not just a face in the classroom, not just a number at a desk." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [04:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=287) > "Those teachers, that ability to see us for who we were and walk with us on the journey that we were taking is very much at the core of the relationships that we insist our teachers build with the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Relationship-based education · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=430) > "His secretary actually blocks out every break time and every lunch time, and he takes his coffee and he makes a point of walking around the playground talking to his children, and he has over a thousand in his school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Relationship-based education · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=490) > "So the number of students in your school is irrelevant. It's how much effort you're putting into seeing your children, because they respond to that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Relationship-based education · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=501) > "His, his superpower was realizing that kids are capable of way, way, way, way, way, way much more than what average adults believe. And he communicated that expectation and got us to do it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Memorable super teachers · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=551) > "When in the meantime, they are capable of a hundred, two hundred percent more than what we really give them credit for." >, Francois Naude, guest · topic: High expectations · [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=598) > "We have an aspirational pass mark of seventy-five percent. Our, our pass mark is fifty, but we, we, we award for the aspirational pass, the edging pass is seventy-five percent because we don't want children reaching an average of Sixty three, sixty five going, okay, well, my job's done, I'm fine." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Aspirational pass mark · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=612) > "at Edu Inc we create A lot of spaces for the students, and, you know, if you enter robotics, then the workshop is your space to go and use, and it doesn't matter if it's in the holidays or on the weekends or after hours or at break." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Student agency · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=662) > "I run a recruitment company called GoTeach, where we assist schools in finding the super teachers to come and teach at their schools," >, Francois Naude, guest · topic: Teacher recruitment · [11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=694) > "And our Shackleton process exactly that. Teachers wanted toughest job in the universe, pays low, rewards immense, and you're probably going to cry quite a lot along the way." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=752) > "Gershom and I don't believe in hiring someone with a fabulous CV with a great brain in their head and then as soon as they walk through the door expecting them to stop thinking." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=812) > "I don't want a robotic teacher. I want somebody who's authentically themselves, brings their own uniqueness to the classroom, and is absolutely passionate about what they do, excited, because curiosity and passion for students comes from a passionate teacher and an excited teacher." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=873) > "We have a whole lot of clubs that the teachers create based on their interests, and it varies from term to term as, you know, the kids and the teachers have an intersection of interests," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School culture · [14:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=893) > "We are an independent school, writing the IEB metric, and that gives us a certain amount of leeway to play with the curriculum a little bit." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Breaking legacy thinking · [15:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=936) > "if I'm working with a grade four, for example, and I'm doing social sciences, what's more important, to spend time page by page going through a textbook, a prescribed work, Or to spend a month out of a term building a weather station that we code," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Breaking legacy thinking · [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=968) > "We prefer teachers who have got a PGCE and they've got an undergrad in the subject that they like to teach, because the base knowledge is a lot bigger than teachers who have done a teaching qualification or teaching diploma type of thing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1006) > "If I see a teacher teaching out of a textbook, then they shouldn't be in that classroom. You should be able to go in there and talk about your subject from top to tail without having to look at the textbook," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Breaking legacy thinking · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1025) > "I, of course, have my bias because I've got a P.G.C.E., like I'm from a zoology background, but I also, I've also taught, in a B.Ed program," >, Francois Naude, guest · topic: Teacher recruitment · [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1093) > "Our Shackleton interview process has been the most successful so far. It does include them actually recording themselves giving a lesson as well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1136) > "The B.Ed for us is something that we are a little wary of because it tends to result in someone who's gone to school, then gone to varsity and studied a B.Ed, and then come back to school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1183) > "So we'll choose three or four teachers, depending on the circumstances, who's available, who's interested in it, and we'll do a second interview where that person goes and talks to the teachers, because ultimately, Jax and I might be the leaders of the school, but we're not in the trenches day to day as the teachers are," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1286) > "Look, we have heard from some of the applicants that it's that second interview with the faculty that's particularly vicious." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1351) > "but the team has enough strength and accountability to turn to Gershom Aitchison and say, you need to explain that, because we were actually quite happy with this person." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Flat leadership · [24:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1479) > "And I think that if you want to give students a sense of agency over their studies and their paths and what They're doing in school, you have to do the same with teachers because they'll model it for the students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Flat leadership · [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1512) > "I'm picking up a lot of the, what we call, legicide, the things that kill your business because, you know, we've always been doing it in a specific way, so we're going to keep on doing it." >, Francois Naude, guest · topic: Breaking legacy thinking · [25:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1535) > "We made a conscious decision not to have a large school, that based on a whole lot of different things, including Malcolm Gladwell's talk about the perfect size being 140 people in total to know everybody and have a sense of community" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1575) > "that we would be able to make significant difference in a select number of people's lives rather than make a minimal difference in a large number of people's lives." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1598) > "And it's posed its own problems in terms of, you know, Jax and I are the owners, we finance the school ourselves, and we continue to do that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [26:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1612) > "It's, it's very unusual to have the owners and the, the, the heads as, as one person or two people in our instance. And it means that we have to continually be quite discerning about what we expose ourselves to," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Breaking legacy thinking · [28:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1681) > "We weren't trying to be different for the sake of disruption. That wasn't the intention. It was because we believe so passionately in successful education being relationship-based," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Relationship-based education · [28:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1717) > "So we made the decision to not attend some of those meetings and to kind of tag team on some of them, that he would do some and that I would do some, and then we would only discuss the pertinent bits with each other," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leading through COVID · [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1793) > "Keep your arc afloat. And Gershon and I really took that to heart. You know, it was whatever needs to be done here, and our arc is our whole community, the, the children, our staff, and their families, because they're all interlinked and interconnected." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leading through COVID · [30:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1829) > "So the school is designed for 100 kids. The rest of it is, you know, we've got probably about 20 faculty members and custodial staff, including the leadership." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1912) > "after nine years, we're at seventy-five percent capacity because we are very judicious about who we want to be part of that community." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [32:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=1936) > "he said, no, this set us back sixty million rand and we're very proud of the fact we didn't go into debt for it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2039) > "You know, we, we really pride ourselves on not asking parents for extra money during the year. We don't want to be that school that we advertise one fee, but then every month you get an invoice for more and more and more." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Financial transparency · [34:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2070) > "well, we've allocated that amount of money for outings this term, but the kids can't do outings because they're in lockdown, so we'll take that money and we'll put it across to putting them all on a Udemy course." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Leading through COVID · [34:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2082) > "And when you're pushing the dollar, when you're pushing that bottom line, that's not going to align. You're not seeing children anymore. You're seeing what those children can bring financially," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [35:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2130) > "all leaders need to have people that they respect enough that can challenge them and call their BS when it happens, stop them from being tyrannical and making bad decisions," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Flat leadership · [35:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2157) > "by the end of last year, we hadn't had a single case. Of parents saying, I'm not paying my fees because my child hasn't been taught." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Financial transparency · [38:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2280) > "The fifty percent pass mark as a minimum pass mark got two functions. The first is in the tertiary world, in the real world, when you, as an adult, fifty percent is the pass mark for most subjects," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Aspirational pass mark · [39:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2359) > "But we want our kids to engage in the higher cognitive thinking spaces, which is synthesizing, analyzing, creating." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Aspirational pass mark · [40:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2425) > "I had completely underestimated how much information I get from my children when they are sitting right in front of me and I can see those faces clearly," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [42:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2561) > "We tell our students, you have one job, and your one job is you do not leave the room until you understand." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student agency · [43:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2591) > "So there are certain subjects at Edu Inc up to grade nine that I've made non-examinable. Music and movement, technology." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [43:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2633) > "And I've challenged the teachers in music and movement, the grade nines make a movie. So the first term is scripting it all out, second term is making all the costumes and that, and the third term is putting it all together and editing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [44:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2653) > "We want teachers to reward the iterative process of failing, starting again, failing, starting again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [44:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2695) > "We consider that, that metric exam to be the event. That's the only event that should really be in the school process." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [46:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2784) > "How did they handle it when Eskom load shed? What did they do? How did they communicate? We had to bring all of those other things into the assessment as well because that was part of the learning that had taken place." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment as process · [47:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2831) > "if there are student teachers who are looking for a place to do a prac, A place to experience a different school. We've got a good success rate with people coming through." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher recruitment · [48:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2918) > "So we are open to that being a registered private school, and you talk about being non-mainstream, we're mainstream but small." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Small school model · [49:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1007777_high.mp3#t=2952) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Today we do something a little.... different. Recently, Francois Naude had an energetic and insightful conversation with Edu Inc Headmaster, Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head Jax Aitchison, on his "Super Teachers Unite" podcast. During this episode they talked about: How Edu Inc breaks away from the restrictive legacy thinking of traditional schooling; Why smaller schools are better than mega schools; and What traits teachers should have that make them Super Teachers. They also discussed memorable teachers from their pasts, how Edu Inc is different, values, teacher employment and much much more. Grab a coffee and enjoy this delightful insight into Edu Inc's core values. Connect with Francois · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Dunkirk, small boats and independent education | Prof Jonathan Jansen - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-02-11-dunkirk-small-boats-and-independent-education/ - Date: 2021-02-11 (as at 2021-02-11) - Guest: Jonathan Jansen - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: independent schools' role, small boats of Dunkirk, corruption and incompetence, academic and human project, sharing resources with township schools, NPO sector and giving, hybrid classrooms, school size and impact - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/994814?v=1 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Jonathan Jansen - Professor · Stellenbosch - Has worked at the University of the Free State and the University of Pretoria, where he says he was dean and vice chancellor; has studied schools all his life; author of the book Learning Lessons. In their own words: > "I've worked in hard places. I really have worked in difficult places, like the University of the Free State, where, and the University of Pretoria, by the way, where I was dean and vice chancellor later." [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=678) > "the thing about schools, having now studied schools all my life, is that I can, within twenty minutes, give you, you know, just by walking through a school, you sense of, of its culture and its community and its, and its message" [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=897) > "in my new book, which is called Learning Lessons, each of The ten lessons I link to one kid, one student that I have, been privileged to, to lead, you know, in different parts of the country. And each one of them has gone on to make a massive impact." [28:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1688) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Jax Aitchison of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, Grades 4 to 12, with small classes by design, asks Professor Jonathan Jansen whether independent schools can act like the small boats of Dunkirk in a failing system. Jansen draws on his university leadership and a lifetime of studying schools. He argues that most South African schools do not function, that corruption and incompetence compound each other, and that individual schools matter when they combine academic results with teaching decency. He urges independent schools to share resources through scholarships, partner schools and teacher masterclasses. He points to NPOs such as Gift of the Givers as evidence that cumulative small efforts make a difference. **Key ideas** - Jax Aitchison frames independent schools as the Dunkirk little boats: acting with the resources they have rather than waiting for government to build one big ship. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=142) [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1645)) - Jansen says about 80% of 26,000 schools are not functional and that turning them around needs government, because the problem is systemic. ([04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=279) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=313)) - Jansen argues that corruption and incompetence together are the worst combination, and that South Africa has both. ([06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=361) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=365) [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=371)) - Jansen argues that schools make a difference when they give a solid academic education and also teach generosity and comfort with people who are different. ([06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=402) [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=529) [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=561)) - Jansen argues that one school has a cumulative effect on the system through each cohort it graduates over ten years. ([07:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=460) [27:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1665)) - Jansen urges well-resourced schools to reserve scholarship places, partner with township schools on data and devices, and host teacher masterclasses. ([19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1157) [20:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1209) [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1264) [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1301)) - Jansen claims ordinary people and the NPO sector, not government, hold the country together, and cites Gift of the Givers. ([23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1383) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1390) [29:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1792) [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1827)) **Lessons** - Jansen advises schools under political criticism to keep focus on their mission of balanced academic and values education, regardless of what critics say. ([16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=968) [17:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1022)) - Jansen advises independent schools, even non-wealthy ones, to be able to name three to five outreach projects to less-endowed schools. ([18:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1135)) - Jansen says young people respond when adults balance their words with how they relate to people unlike themselves. ([06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=402) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=743)) - Jansen recommends developing in each child a sense of their own potential, captured in his message that 'you're smarter than you think'. ([28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1727) [28:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1739)) - Jax Aitchison proposes that hybrid classrooms could let a partner school share lessons when a teacher is absent. ([25:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1514) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1527) [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1543)) **Who it's for:** Independent school leaders, teachers and parents in South Africa who want to know what role a single school can play in a struggling system, and how better-resourced schools might share with under-resourced ones. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jansen says there are upwards of 26,000 schools in South Africa and about 80% are not functional. ([04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=279)) - Jax Aitchison says Edu Inc takes a maximum of ten pupils per class. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=184)) - Jax Aitchison says Edu Inc is a TED registered school and test-markets educational Lego for Lego Education. ([03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=218)) - Jansen says the first schools to be integrated in South Africa were Catholic schools. ([14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=849)) - S0 cites over four hundred million spent on cleaning rooms that no one is attending. ([26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1591)) - Jansen says there has not been one scandal in the 20 years of Gift of the Givers. ([30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1827)) - Jansen's new book is called Learning Lessons and links each of its ten lessons to one student. ([28:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1688)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How many South African schools are actually functional?** A: Jansen says there are upwards of 26,000 schools and about 80% of them are not functional in delivering effective results for all children. ([04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=279)) **Q: Can a single school make a difference to South African education?** A: Jansen argues it can: each year's graduating cohort adds up to a visible impact on the system over ten years. He tells Edu Inc he does not believe any school is too small for a massive impact. ([07:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=460) [27:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1665) [27:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1665)) **Q: What makes a school stand out, according to Jonathan Jansen?** A: He looks for schools that combine a solid academic education with teaching children to be generous and comfortable with people who do not look, pray or speak like them. ([06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=402) [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=529)) **Q: Why is government critical of independent schools reopening during COVID?** A: Jansen argues that government and elites are disturbed by independent schools because they are doing so well. He notes that MPs do not send their own children to township schools. ([16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=968) [17:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1076)) **Q: How can wealthy private schools help transformation?** A: Jansen suggests reserving scholarship places, such as 40 of 200 boys, adopting a township partner school with data and devices, and running masterclasses to develop master teachers. ([20:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1209) [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1264) [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1301)) **Q: Are all independent schools in South Africa wealthy?** A: Jansen says no: most are not like the expensive elite schools, and many independent schools struggle financially just to keep their doors open. ([16:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1011)) **Q: How does Edu Inc measure whether it has educated a pupil well?** A: Jax Aitchison says the headmaster asks whether he would want coffee with the person years later. She also counts it a success if, facing a challenge at varsity, they draw on their own skills and resources. ([04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=244) [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=627)) **Q: What is Edu Inc's class size?** A: Jax Aitchison says classes are kept very small, a maximum of ten, on a model similar to the Drakensberg Boys Choir, because their teaching is built on relationships. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=184) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=197)) ### Passage: How Edu Inc's model is built [03:02-04:28, 273 words] Note (AI): Jax Aitchison sets out the school's class sizes, relationship-based premise, Lego and TED partnerships, and what she wants a matric leaver to be able to do. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=182): > it's a, it's a very small school, and we deliberately built this model. My husband Gershom was a, he's a Drakies Boys Choir alumni, and it's a similar model to that, where you keep your classes very, very small. So we take a max of ten. Because the entire premise of, of how we educate is based on relationships, building relationships with the children so that, to facilitate really building whole child in the truest sense of building whole child, not just a marketing sense of building whole child. We expose them to things that they wouldn't normally have exposure to. That's very important to us. So we collaborate with, Lego Education from on global levels. For example, we test market a lot of their kids, educational Lego. We're a TED registered school, so our kids go through learning how to give TED talks. Essentially, what we're trying to build is the type of person who leaves matric with more than just that thin line of marks across the top of the page. You know, we need, we need a lot more depth to that person. When they leave our school, we've done our jobs right. If the first time they're in varsity and they get presented with something challenging, they don't throw their hands in the air saying, oh, well, I was never taught that. I can't do that. They Actually think to themselves, okay, well, what skills do I have? What resources can I employ? What can I tap into here? Then we've done our job right. So that's the type of school that we have, and that's what we build. ### Passage: Schools that combine academics with decency [06:42-09:36, 454 words] Note (AI): Jansen names schools he admires, explains cumulative cohort impact, and argues that the schools that matter pair academic results with teaching decency. Jonathan Jansen, guest [06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=402): > So what is the role of the individual school? And here, ideally, I wish I had more space in last week's column, because I wanted to talk about the schools that have made a lasting impression on the country, schools like Saint Barnabas, you know, in the ninety, early nineties, before we even had democracy for all. Schools like, Sacred Heart, I mean, I can go down the line, and schools here like this one, unfortunately, they're quite expensive, but one with Cacti and Channel with opposite that is Cruz, the unbelievable, schools, public schools like, like Ann Morton's, Red School in Pinelands, these are schools that, despite what's happening around them, public and private, you know, are schools that say, look, in the space that we occupy, in the ecology that we inhabit, we are going to make a major difference. Now, what is their major difference? Their major difference is that every single year they take in a new cohort of kids, they graduate another bunch of kids, and so over a period of ten years, you can see the impact on the system, even though you one school. And what do those schools do? They do two things at the same time. They, on the one hand, place the traditional emphasis on, you know, academic results. And most private schools, most independent schools do that fairly well, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=490): > you Jonathan Jansen, guest [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=490): > know, and they, the math and science results are up, you know, there, there is drama, arts, and music, there's, you know, a, a computer lab, there's, they have all the STEAM-y plays. But most of those schools, certainly in the book that we just completed last year on admissions policies of schools, that deal with non-adoptal students, they do a lousy job. And housing job of the other part of our commitment, and that is how to teach young people to be decent Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=525): > in, Jonathan Jansen, guest [08:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=526): > in a dangerous world. And so I look for schools that do both those things. On the one hand, giving the kids a solid academic education, on the other hand, teaching them how to be generous with their giving, teaching them how to be comfortable in their relationships with people who don't look like them or pray like them or speak their language. And when you have a school that gives you those two things in combination, then you are making a difference. In the way that this country desperately needs in all nine provinces. So don't give up on your initiative. Don't give up on what you do. Just make sure that the children coming out of that school are countercultural, by which I mean that they understand the difference between their money and other people's money. ### Passage: Bishops old boys: scholarships and partner schools [19:17-21:19, 352 words] Note (AI): Jansen gives wealthy schools concrete proposals: reserved scholarship places and township partner schools supplied with data, devices and connectivity. Jonathan Jansen, guest [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1157): > the other day I spoke at the bishop's old boys, which was quite a thing. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1162): > I can imagine, yeah. Jonathan Jansen, guest [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1166): > I was noticing so many rich people, outside of, outside of Stellenbosch, you know, but where I live. but, I, see them listen, I, I don't want you guys to, you know, get your, you know, all this bad English expression, Gavin, intro voice or played clip [19:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1186): > you Jonathan Jansen, guest [19:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1186): > know, not, yeah, I know, I just, as I thought about it, I thought it might be inappropriate, but, the, I said to them, here you are, a whole lot of really wealthy men, black and white, okay? Stop wringing your hands about what you can do for transformation. I can tell you very simply what you can do. right next to me was Raymond Ackerman. Okay. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1207): > Yeah. Jonathan Jansen, guest [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1207): > And I say, you know what you're asking me? If you said, okay, we take in, 200 boys into the A-A-A-B single year, you know what, we're going to commit to making sure that all those 200 boys starting next year, 40 of them will come in, fully come in for both a hostel and education as a result of the scholarship scheme that we set up. You do that, and you begin to change the complexion of what, your graduates will look like. No. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1237): > Exactly. Jonathan Jansen, guest [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1238): > No, it's, it's tough, of course, it's very hard to take a smart kid from Kersack and Caledonia and put them in the super-duper wealthy school, but I say you're never going to get around it, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1248): > around Jonathan Jansen, guest [20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1248): > this, debate unless you open up access, use your resources to do that, you know? What, what's bishops, for example? I'm just using that school because it's close to my heart. I, really believe there's some truth, whether or when they want to change our education. What's bishops from taking a school in a township and saying, we're going to work with you as our partner school and make sure that whatever we are able to offer in online learning, we are going to make sure that you have the data and devices and connectivity to do the same thing. ### Passage: Personal giving and the NPO sector [22:01-23:57, 355 words] Note (AI): Jansen describes his own giving, argues that ordinary people and NPOs hold the country together, and states the primary and broader job of a school. Jonathan Jansen, guest [22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1321): > What stops you from sitting that out and making your school the base for that? You know, I just think there's so much selfishness and self-centeredness, you know, and overthinking, and so on. So, you know, I, I, and I would tell them, I said, look, I, I do probably like half my salary away in single line, you know. As a professor, we don't have that much money, but I give it away. And to make sure that people who can't afford a good education, that schools like down the road, the analysis of a girl, literature, manga, who can't feed their children during lockdown, that's where I put my personal resources, you know, in order to make a difference. Now, imagine if you're wealthy, and you had a school, and you had a board like these fancy schools, how much more of a difference you can make? And then I use my energy, I use the little skills, the few skills that God gave me. To make sure that I use it to benefit others, you know? So I think a lot of South Africans do that. I think there's a lot of people in the NPO sector that really do that. In fact, as I said, last night in a program in the Netherlands, I said, you know, if you collapse the NPO sector in South Africa, this country will disappear overnight, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [23:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1394): > okay? Jonathan Jansen, guest [23:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1395): > We're under the illusion that government runs this country. Actually, there's a whole lot of ordinary people that do Jacqueline Aitchison, host [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1401): > it. Jonathan Jansen, guest [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1402): > And so on. So let's do more of that, you know, to, to, I call that, as you know from my writings, the, the model underground, the people that we don't see, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [23:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1411): > that Jonathan Jansen, guest [23:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1411): > keep things together, you know? And that's my encouragement to your school. Let's do our primary job well, Jacqueline Aitchison, host [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1419): > which Jonathan Jansen, guest [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1419): > is to, as I said, the academic and the social, and then let's make sure that the broader impact of the school Is such that people have no doubt that this is a school that never reaches its relative advantage in the interest of the broader community. ### Passage: Hybrid classrooms and piggyback partner schools [25:14-26:25, 218 words] Note (AI): Jax Aitchison explains the school's hybrid classroom investment and how a partner school could share lessons, linking this to Jansen's teacher masterclass idea. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [25:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1514): > imagine we had access to resources to develop more of that, to just do more of what we're already doing. It's such an exciting prospect, even if I think about where we're moving in the hybrid space. You know, our big investment this year is truly hybrid classrooms, which is, in other words, replicating in whatever scenario is presented that the kids have a classroom experience, a proper classroom experience, even if they're sitting at home or the teacher's at home or whatever gets thrown at us next. Just imagine we had a scenario where we had a partner school who had appropriate infrastructure, who could piggyback off our lessons, who, when the teacher didn't arrive that day, the school head could say, oh, well, that's, you know, it's not convenient, but we'll just piggyback onto Edu Inc today. Or there was a teacher who teaches one particular lesson really, really well, and you could just tune in for that lesson and get real best practice. Imagine that will. And I, for me, it, it seems really doable. And it's where we can really partner with our less privileged schools. but I, I also really love your, your idea of, of masterclasses for teachers, because if we can uplift there and upskill there, we're also making another massive impact. ### Passage: Smarter than you think and Gift of the Givers [28:35-31:11, 413 words] Note (AI): Jansen gives his core message to children and uses Gift of the Givers as his example of cumulative, trustworthy impact from outside the state. Jonathan Jansen, guest [28:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1715): > And, and, man, I tell you, you can, you can do this, you know, because, I mean, just a simple thing, like developing in each child, which is what happened to me, in a, in a fairly ordinary school, just developing in each child a sense of what they can do, a sense of the enormous potential, or what I call in the book, just this message I give everywhere I go in the world, actually, that you're smarter than you think. You really are much smarter than your own mind sometimes tells you. And that in and of itself will, is, can be such an encouragement, you know? And, and so on. But I sort of go back to the non-state sector, if you will. I'm only beginning to realize what a powerful impact one man has on this notion of giving, and that is this organization called Gift of the Givers. Now, I, you know, I, I grew up in the, you know, heading out of evangelical fundamentals, you know, and church, and my parents, bless their souls, you know, made sure that all of us memorize of the Bible and that kind of thing. nothing wrong with that. But, you know, M.T.S. Suleiman of Gift of the Givers, I landed in trouble with a lot of my Christian friends, because I made the, the factual point that over the Christmas period, this organization did more for giving, you know, hungry Christians than all the churches combined, you know. And I thought to myself, And yet his, his focus is not on the whistleblower, his focus is not on fake media, his focus is on poverty, his focus is on believing higher, his focus is on negotiating, the freedom of people held up by terrorist groups. You know, he works throughout the continent, but have you heard in the, the 20 years of Gita, there is one scandal about one cent, okay, nothing, because of the integrity of grip. So I mention Intias only because for every Intias and Sliman, there is, you know, a Kuminidu from who work for this international group, these, are on the environment, these are here months ago just to go back to kids to Antarctica. I can just give you a list of this. You guys, you know, and so don't underestimate the cumulative value. Of all of us doing, this kind of work in our corner of the vineyard, it does make a difference. ### Quotes > "There's nothing worse than having those two evils in the same room," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=365) > "Just make sure that the children coming out of that school are countercultural, by which I mean that they understand the difference between their money and other people's money." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=565) > "do I want to have a cup of coffee with this person three, five, ten years from now?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=629) > "They know the game is up. They know the world has changed." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=775) > "And remember, education isn't only what happens in school." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [13:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=839) > "if you collapse the NPO sector in South Africa, this country will disappear overnight," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1390) > "I call that, as you know from my writings, the, the model underground, the people that we don't see," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1406) > "I don't believe your school is too small to have a big impact, a massive impact." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [27:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1665) > "You really are much smarter than your own mind sometimes tells you." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · [28:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1739) > "It doesn't matter how big the other problems are, if you keep that focus. Be a pocket of excellence." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1898) ### Claims > "my feeling just being that the politicized nature of what's going on feels like it's, it's really, when we should be talking about COVID and safety, there seems to be a political agenda at work that's clouding this issue," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: corruption and incompetence · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=86) > "where do we sit on the sidelines and wait for the government to build one big ship that can evacuate all the allies from Dunkirk, or do we see ourselves as independent schools as the little boats that go over and do everything that they can while they can with the resources that they have?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: small boats of Dunkirk · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=142) > "we deliberately built this model. My husband Gershom was a, he's a Drakies Boys Choir alumni, and it's a similar model to that, where you keep your classes very, very small. So we take a max of ten." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: school size and impact · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=184) > "Because the entire premise of, of how we educate is based on relationships, building relationships with the children so that, to facilitate really building whole child in the truest sense of building whole child, not just a marketing sense of building whole child." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: academic and human project · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=197) > "So we collaborate with, Lego Education from on global levels. For example, we test market a lot of their kids, educational Lego. We're a TED registered school, so our kids go through learning how to give TED talks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: school model · [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=218) > "When they leave our school, we've done our jobs right. If the first time they're in varsity and they get presented with something challenging, they don't throw their hands in the air saying, oh, well, I was never taught that. I can't do that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: academic and human project · [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=244) > "you've got upwards of 26,000 schools in the country. about 80% of those schools are not functional, and the level one would regard as delivering effective results, for all children." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: state of South African schooling · [04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=279) > "much of my energy is concerned with the schools that don't work, and I fortunately to turn around those schools, you do need a government, because the problem is systemic." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: state of South African schooling · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=313) > "I'm highly critical of the corruption and the incompetence. There's nothing worse than having those two evils in the same room," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: corruption and incompetence · [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=361) > "If you just corrupt, but... Like you're doing a reasonable job, like the Zimbabwe government, you could still run, seriously, you can still run reasonably effective, schools, you know? But if you're incompetent and, and non-corrupt, everybody smiles, but you're not getting the results." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: corruption and incompetence · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=371) > "Their major difference is that every single year they take in a new cohort of kids, they graduate another bunch of kids, and so over a period of ten years, you can see the impact on the system, even though you one school." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: school size and impact · [07:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=460) > "But most of those schools, certainly in the book that we just completed last year on admissions policies of schools, that deal with non-adoptal students, they do a lousy job." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=504) > "On the one hand, giving the kids a solid academic education, on the other hand, teaching them how to be generous with their giving, teaching them how to be comfortable in their relationships with people who don't look like them or pray like them or speak their language." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=529) > "So don't give up on your initiative. Don't give up on what you do. Just make sure that the children coming out of that school are countercultural, by which I mean that they understand the difference between their money and other people's money." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=561) > "His measure of success is, do I want to have a cup of coffee with this person three, five, ten years from now? Because if I do want to have a cup of coffee with them, we've done our jobs well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: academic and human project · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=627) > "I've worked in hard places. I really have worked in difficult places, like the University of the Free State, where, and the University of Pretoria, by the way, where I was dean and vice chancellor later." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: guest background · [11:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=678) > "I have seen like some of the hard nuts from the roof, at least they do only know black people in subservient positions on their father's farm. And I've seen those kids turn like that," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=743) > "I'm a child of public schools. I sent my both, my wife and I send our kids to public schools. We love the idea of a public, of a good public school." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: independent schools' role · [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=785) > "So, so the, the spirit of the independent schools for me, Is what, what attracted me in the 1970s already and the 1980s to schools, by the way, the very first schools to be integrated in South Africa were actually the Catholic schools in South" >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: independent schools' role · [14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=849) > "the thing about schools, having now studied schools all my life, is that I can, within twenty minutes, give you, you know, just by walking through a school, you sense of, of its culture and its community and its, and its message" >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: guest background · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=897) > "And at the same time, we're getting opposition from the powers that be because we're forging ahead in the interests of the students and not in the interest of a political agenda." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: independent schools' role · [15:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=939) > "the reason the government at the moment, and particularly elites, are disturbed by the private schools, the independent schools, is because they're doing so well, okay?" >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: independent schools' role · [16:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=968) > "Most of the independent, in fact, a lot of independent schools actually struggle financially, you know, just to, to keep their doors open." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: independent schools' role · [16:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1011) > "So for me, it's about keeping your focus on your mission, okay? And your mission is to give a good academic education that is balanced against the best values, you know, in our local and, and, and global communities. Then you do that regardless of what they say, okay?" >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [17:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1022) > "Listen, you go into that MP, you're doing analysis of where members of parliament send their kids, not a single one saying their kids. The township schools or the schools in which the, the, the language is not English, et cetera, et cetera." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: corruption and incompetence · [17:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1076) > "So I've always said to the independent schools, even if you're not a wealthy independent school, okay, if, if your school is doing really, really well and you're able to get grants, talk about what your three or four or five projects are. In which you reach out to schools, that are not as well endowed." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: sharing resources with township schools · [18:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1135) > "If you said, okay, we take in, 200 boys into the A-A-A-B single year, you know what, we're going to commit to making sure that all those 200 boys starting next year, 40 of them will come in, fully come in for both a hostel and education as a result of the scholarship scheme that we set up." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: sharing resources with township schools · [20:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1209) > "What's bishops from taking a school in a township and saying, we're going to work with you as our partner school and make sure that whatever we are able to offer in online learning, we are going to make sure that you have the data and devices and connectivity to do the same thing." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: sharing resources with township schools · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1264) > "this is something that Alan Clark and I have been talking about doing, but to set up a masterclass program, for teachers who will become master teachers." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: sharing resources with township schools · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1301) > "I do probably like half my salary away in single line, you know. As a professor, we don't have that much money, but I give it away." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: NPO sector and giving · [22:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1335) > "In fact, as I said, last night in a program in the Netherlands, I said, you know, if you collapse the NPO sector in South Africa, this country will disappear overnight," >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: NPO sector and giving · [23:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1383) > "our big investment this year is truly hybrid classrooms, which is, in other words, replicating in whatever scenario is presented that the kids have a classroom experience, a proper classroom experience, even if they're sitting at home or the teacher's at home or whatever gets thrown at us next." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: hybrid classrooms · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1527) > "Just imagine we had a scenario where we had a partner school who had appropriate infrastructure, who could piggyback off our lessons, who, when the teacher didn't arrive that day, the school head could say, oh, well, that's, you know, it's not convenient, but we'll just piggyback onto Edu Inc today." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: sharing resources with township schools · [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1543) > "you talk about twenty-eight thousand schools, if each school got a million rand, which is twenty-eight million rand in terms of tech and fiber, we suddenly can have an entire population online and being taught and having access to education. But instead, we focused on spending over four hundred million on cleaning rooms that no one is actually attending." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: corruption and incompetence · [26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1591) > "We can either become completely overwhelmed by how insurmountable it feels to be dealing with all of that, or we can ask ourselves the question, well, what can my little ripple be?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: small boats of Dunkirk · [27:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1645) > "I don't believe your school is too small to have a big impact, a massive impact." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: school size and impact · [27:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1665) > "in my new book, which is called Learning Lessons, each of The ten lessons I link to one kid, one student that I have, been privileged to, to lead, you know, in different parts of the country. And each one of them has gone on to make a massive impact." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: guest background · [28:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1688) > "just developing in each child a sense of what they can do, a sense of the enormous potential, or what I call in the book, just this message I give everywhere I go in the world, actually, that you're smarter than you think." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: academic and human project · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1727) > "I made the, the factual point that over the Christmas period, this organization did more for giving, you know, hungry Christians than all the churches combined, you know." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: NPO sector and giving · [29:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1792) > "have you heard in the, the 20 years of Gita, there is one scandal about one cent, okay, nothing, because of the integrity of grip." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: NPO sector and giving · [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1827) > "don't underestimate the cumulative value. Of all of us doing, this kind of work in our corner of the vineyard, it does make a difference." >, Jonathan Jansen, guest · topic: small boats of Dunkirk · [31:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1860) > "he spoke about pockets of excellence in South Africa. And we took a lot away from that talk about doesn't matter how small we are, we have to strive to be a pocket of excellence." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: school size and impact · [31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_994814_high.mp3#t=1887) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Dunkirk. June 4, 1940 - Operation Dynamo, later to become known as ‘The Miracle of Dunkirk’: 336 000 French, British and other Allied troops are evacuated from where they are cornered on the beaches of Dunkirk to England by 850 small, private, boats. An operation so critical, after these troops had been trapped by a German pincer movement, that the failure of it may well have resulted in the Allies losing the war against Nazi Germany. In a recent conversation with Professor Jonathan Jansen, I was fortunate enough to spend some time discussing the parallels between ‘the small ships of Dunkirk’ and independent education in South Africa. In a country where we have upward of 26,000 schools (over 80% of them considered to be non-functional) and approximately 2,500 independent schools catering to 7,2% of the basic education sector, we feel a lot like the small ships of Dunkirk. Connect with Prof Jansen on LinkedIn · Read the accompanying article · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Back to School 2021 (for real this time) - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-01-28-back-to-school-2021-for-real/ - Date: 2021-01-28 (as at 2021-01-28) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Return to campus, School opening dates, Safety protocols, Phone and device rules, Clubs restarting - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988374 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In a short update, Gavin speaks with Edu Inc's Headmaster and Executive Head. Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12. The episode confirms that pupils return to campus from 1 February 2021. The Headmaster explains the context: the Department of Education required schools to postpone opening by two weeks. The Executive Head then goes through the practical rules for the return. These cover daily wet wipes and tissues, phones, devices by grade, lockers, and the restart of some clubs. **Key ideas** - The Headmaster explains that the Department of Education gazetted a two-week postponement. Once that period ends, Edu Inc can bring children back on 1 February, as most independent schools plan to do. ([01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=62) [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=71) [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=78)) - The Executive Head stresses strict safety protocols. Children must carry wet wipes and tissues in hand at arrival for the temperature check and foot bath. ([01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=86) [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=86) [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=102)) - Phones are not allowed. Applications for exceptions are considered only for transport reasons, such as children who Uber home. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128) [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128)) - Device rules differ by grade. Grades 4 to 7 bring no devices unless they have a specific concession. Grades 8 to 12 may bring laptops, used as teachers direct. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=143) [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=153)) - Lockers stay empty to keep things clean and safe. Some clubs, including TED Club and Robotics, restart. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=162) [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=168)) **Lessons** - The Executive Head asks parents to make sure wet wipes and tissues are in the child's hand at arrival. Children who forget them will be sent to fetch them. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=102) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=113) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=113)) - Parents of Grades 4 to 7 should keep laptops and iPads at home unless a concession applies. Grades 8 to 12 can bring laptops. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=143) [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=153)) - Phones stay at home unless parents apply on transport grounds, according to the Executive Head. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128)) **Who it's for:** Parents and pupils of Edu Inc preparing for the return to campus on 1 February 2021. They need the rules on hygiene items, phones, devices, lockers and clubs. **Facts stated in the episode** - Edu Inc pupils return to campus from 1 February 2021. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=71)) - The Department of Education's gazetted wording required schools to postpone opening by two weeks. ([01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=62)) - Grades 4 to 7 may not bring devices onto campus unless they have a specific concession. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=143)) - Grades 8 to 12 may bring laptops back to school. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=153)) - TED Club and Robotics are restarting. ([02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=168)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When do Edu Inc pupils go back to campus in 2021?** A: The Headmaster says the two-week postponement ends at the end of that week, so children can return to campus from 1 February. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=71)) **Q: Why was the school opening delayed in early 2021?** A: The Headmaster says the Department of Education gazetted opening dates that required schools to postpone opening by two weeks. ([01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=62)) **Q: What hygiene items do children need to bring to Edu Inc?** A: Wet wipes and tissues, every day. The Executive Head wants them in the child's hand at arrival for the temperature check and foot bath. Children who forget them must go and fetch them. ([01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=86) [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=102) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=113)) **Q: Can children bring their phones to school?** A: No. The only applications the school will consider are for transport reasons, such as children who have to Uber home. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128)) **Q: Can pupils bring laptops or iPads?** A: Grades 4 to 7 may bring no devices unless they have a specific concession. Grades 8 to 12 may bring laptops and will use them as their teachers direct. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=143) [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=153)) **Q: Will pupils use their lockers?** A: No. The Executive Head says lockers will be kept empty to keep things clean and safe. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=162)) **Q: Are any clubs starting again?** A: Yes. TED Club and Robotics will start, probably with a few more to follow, according to the Executive Head. ([02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=168)) ### Passage: Housekeeping rules for the return to campus [01:22-02:57, 332 words] Note (AI): Sets out in one place the practical rules parents and pupils need for the first day back: hygiene items, phones, devices by grade, lockers and clubs. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=82): > So some housekeeping involved in getting back on campus on Monday. We obviously are going to be very stringent about our safety protocols, so a reminder to everyone that the wet wipes and the tissues that the children need to be bringing on a daily basis are back in action. And to prevent any issues with that, we would like the children to have those wet wipes and tissues in their hand when they arrive at school, when they have their temperature checks done and walk through the foot bath so that Mr. G can see that they haven't left them at home. If they have left them at home, they will have to go and fetch them. So please make sure that those are in the children's hands in a bag when they arrive at school. The second one is going back to the, the, the first podcast we did of the year when we thought we were going back for the first time. No phones. Children, no phones. There is an application form that your parents can fill in. The only applications we'll look at are those for transport reasons, children who have to Uber home. As far as the rest of the tech goes, for grades four to seven, no devices whatsoever should be brought onto the campus. No laptops, no iPads, et cetera, unless it relates to a specific concession that you have. From grades eight to twelve, you can bring your laptops back to school with you. You will be directed by your teachers as to how and when you will be using those. The learners will not be using their lockers. We need to continue to keep these empty just to keep things clean and safe. But the very good news is some of the clubs will be starting again. TED Club will start, Robotics will start, and probably a few more, and we'll let you know about those clubs that are starting up from Monday. ### Quotes > "like most independent schools, we are planning to do that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=78) > "We obviously are going to be very stringent about our safety protocols," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=86) > "If they have left them at home, they will have to go and fetch them." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=113) > "No phones. Children, no phones. There is an application form that your parents can fill in." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128) > "Back to school 2021 for real this time." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=183) > "They're very excited to have that face-to-face contact with their kids again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=190) ### Claims > "after re-evaluating and in light of all the rulings and confusion that's cleared up, independent schools will all be open from Monday with all children back on campus." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: School opening dates · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=18) > "It was very good seeing them on the Monday when they came to collect stuff and get ready for schooling from home, and we're really looking forward to having them back on campus again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Return to campus · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=39) > "The Department of Education gazetted the opening dates for schools, and the wording was that schools would need to postpone their opening by two weeks." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School opening dates · [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=62) > "Two weeks are up for us at the end of this week, and it means we can bring children back on campus from the 1st of February, and like most independent schools, we are planning to do that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School opening dates · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=71) > "We obviously are going to be very stringent about our safety protocols, so a reminder to everyone that the wet wipes and the tissues that the children need to be bringing on a daily basis are back in action." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Safety protocols · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=86) > "we would like the children to have those wet wipes and tissues in their hand when they arrive at school, when they have their temperature checks done and walk through the foot bath so that Mr. G can see that they haven't left them at home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Safety protocols · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=102) > "If they have left them at home, they will have to go and fetch them." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Safety protocols · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=113) > "No phones. Children, no phones. There is an application form that your parents can fill in. The only applications we'll look at are those for transport reasons, children who have to Uber home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Phone and device rules · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=128) > "for grades four to seven, no devices whatsoever should be brought onto the campus. No laptops, no iPads, et cetera, unless it relates to a specific concession that you have." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Phone and device rules · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=143) > "From grades eight to twelve, you can bring your laptops back to school with you. You will be directed by your teachers as to how and when you will be using those." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Phone and device rules · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=153) > "The learners will not be using their lockers. We need to continue to keep these empty just to keep things clean and safe." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Safety protocols · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=162) > "But the very good news is some of the clubs will be starting again. TED Club will start, Robotics will start, and probably a few more," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Clubs restarting · [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=168) > "I know the teachers are very excited to see their students. They're very excited to have that face-to-face contact with their kids again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Return to campus · [03:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988374_high.mp3#t=187) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Our pupils are back on campus from Monday 1 Feb 2021 and we can't wait to see you all again! Today's very short episode has more info from Headmaster Mr. Aitchison and Executive Head Mrs. Aitchison. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Back to school 2021 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-01-15-back-to-school-2021/ - Date: 2021-01-15 (as at 2021-01-15) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: School reopening delays, COVID-19 impact on teachers, Independent school differentiation, Schooling from Home plan, Home tech requirements, Patience and mutual support - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988442 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Host Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head Jacqueline Aitchison explain how Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12, will respond to the government's delayed school opening in January 2021. She sets out the context: teacher deaths, a second wave larger than the first, and pressure on hospitals. She explains the limits of independent-school differentiation and gives a detailed first-week plan. That plan covers a staggered Monday campus visit for textbooks and uniforms, on-campus induction for new pupils on Tuesday, and full Schooling from Home from Wednesday. She also lists the equipment pupils need and closes with an appeal for patience and a two-weekly review of the situation. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline Aitchison explains that the government's 'two weeks' delay amounts to about a month for private schools that had planned to open earlier. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=78) [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=84)) - She argues that the health and safety of children and teachers must take priority, citing nearly 2,000 teacher deaths and case numbers above the first wave. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=150) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=157) [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=252)) - She frames the current situation as a second round that requires starting again, though lessons from the first round still apply. ([04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=281) [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=288)) - Independent schools can differ from government schools in some decisions, but not in Command Council directives. Edu Inc will therefore teach online rather than close entirely. ([05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=314) [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=344) [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=361) [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=371)) - The first week uses staggered grade cohorts on campus with sanitising in between. This is followed by induction for new pupils and then full Schooling from Home. ([06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=411) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=418) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531) [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=556)) - Pupils need two screens, a webcam, a microphone, an over-ear headset and decent internet, plus a generator or UPS for load shedding. ([09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=561) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=571) [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=590)) - She describes the government's decisions as pragmatic responses to hospital pressure, and says Edu Inc will review the situation every two weeks. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=617) [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=624) [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=648) [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=662)) **First-week return plan** ([06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=411) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=418) [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=444) [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=488) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=504) [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=518) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531) [09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=545) [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=556)) 1. Monday 7:30 to 9:30: Grades 4 to 7 on campus to collect textbooks, go through online procedures and do an equipment checklist. 2. 9:30 to 10:00: sanitise the school with no children on campus. 3. 10:00 to 12:00: Grades 8 and 9 go through the same process. 4. 12:00 to 12:30: sanitise again. 5. 12:30 to 14:30: Grades 10 to 12, plus class of 2020 students, on campus. 6. All learners come in uniform on Monday, and new families collect uniforms. 7. Tuesday 7:30: online Schooling from Home begins; new students attend on campus for induction and Google Classroom orientation. 8. Wednesday: whole school Schooling from Home. **Lessons** - Jacqueline Aitchison advises parents to prepare two screens, a webcam, a microphone and an over-ear headset, and ideally a generator or at least a UPS against load shedding. ([09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=571) [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=590)) - She asks for uniforms on the Monday visit so pupils get into the mindset that the school year has begun. ([08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=518)) - She calls for an all-hands-on-deck approach: kindness, grace and compassion between parents, staff and children. ([11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=704) [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=715)) - She names fatigue as the reason this lockdown feels more stressful than the first, and asks the community to acknowledge it and keep going. ([12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=722)) - She urges support for single-parent families, stressed children and staff. ([12:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=754) [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=763)) **Who it's for:** Parents of Edu Inc pupils, especially new families, who need the dates, timetable and equipment list for the start of the 2021 school year. It also suits South African independent-school parents wanting context on the January 2021 reopening delay. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jacqueline Aitchison says nearly 2,000 teachers died towards the end of 2020, over 1,000 of them while marking government exams. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=157)) - Government schools had planned to reopen on 25 January for teachers and 27 January for children. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=78)) - The government delay takes public schools to 15 February 2021. ([01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=84)) - Edu Inc opened on the 13th as planned, with full-day teacher training from Wednesday. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=98)) - South Africa had 15 to 18,000 infections a day and fewer than 700 hospitals, government and private combined, according to Jacqueline Aitchison. ([10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=624)) - Online Schooling from Home begins on Tuesday at 7:30. ([08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When is Edu Inc going back to school in January 2021?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says the school opened on the 13th with staff training. Pupils visit campus in staggered grade groups on Monday and go online on Tuesday. New pupils attend on campus on Tuesday, and the whole school is at home from Wednesday. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=98) [06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=411) [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=444) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531) [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=556)) **Q: Why does the two-week government delay feel like a month for private schools?** A: Government schools had planned to open on 25 and 27 January, so two weeks takes them to 15 February. Private schools like Edu Inc were opening on the 18th, so for them it is more like a month. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=78) [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=84)) **Q: Why did the government decide to keep schools closed?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison cites nearly 2,000 teacher deaths, union pressure and new statistics that changed the director general's mind. She also cites case numbers above the first wave and severe hospital pressure. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=150) [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=157) [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=232) [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=252) [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=624)) **Q: Can independent schools in South Africa decide to open on their own?** A: Only partly, according to Jacqueline Aitchison. Independent schools received differentiated treatment on grade returns last year. Command Council directives apply to everyone, like the alcohol ban. Edu Inc can, however, go online instead of stopping teaching. ([05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=314) [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=344) [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=361) [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=371)) **Q: What equipment does my child need for online schooling at Edu Inc?** A: Pupils need two screens (one for work, one for class communication), a webcam, a microphone, an over-ear headset and decent internet. The first prize is a generator; otherwise a UPS is essential to keep the Wi-Fi running during load shedding. ([09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=561) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=571) [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=590)) **Q: How will new pupils be inducted if school is online?** A: New students come onto campus on Tuesday and sit safely distanced in classrooms. There they receive induction, orientation on Google Classroom and a view of how the Schooling from Home programme works. ([08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531) [09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=545)) **Q: How often will Edu Inc review whether children can return to campus?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says Edu Inc will review the situation every two weeks, taking case numbers and directives into account. She adds that ISASA will keep lobbying to get grades back on campus. ([11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=662) [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=682)) **Q: Why does this lockdown feel harder than the first one?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says it is more stressful because the first time nobody knew how long it would last, and now fatigue has set in. ([12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=722)) ### Passage: Why schools are closed: teacher deaths and second wave [02:30-05:13, 499 words] Note (AI): Explains the teacher death toll, the government's change of stance and the 'round two' framing behind the reopening delay. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=150): > Perhaps a little bit of information to contextualize where these decisions are coming from would be helpful for parents at this time. Nearly 2,000 teachers have died since the end of 2020, or towards the end of 2020, we lost that many teachers. We lost over 1,000 teachers who were marking in the government's exams. Teachers were lost in the IEB exam marking as well. This was all due to COVID-related illnesses, COVID deaths, people who were quarantining because family members had gotten the illness. This is no longer a situation where we're sitting looking at numbers on graphs and watching progressions and increases and decreases. We are in the most part, all of us know of somebody who quite close to us has gotten ill, has perhaps died. Some of us have attended the funerals of people that we know who have died of COVID. It's very real, the danger of this situation and how prevalent this infection is. Is very, very real. And I believe that's part of the reason we, we're seeing some of the flip-flopping from the government side of things as well. I think it's why we saw quite a bland address from the president on Monday night, which was extremely frustrating for so many people because clear direction was really not being given. And at that point, the director general of education had been quoted in the news as saying that schools would remain open. From Tuesday, however, a lot more information was presented to him as these meetings started, and he was getting a lot of pressure from the unions. And when he started seeing all of the stats and information coming in, he did have a change of heart. This is why in the meetings over the last few days, they have taken the stance of keeping the schools closed. While education is first and foremost on all of our minds, the health and safety of our children and teachers Has to take priority. The reality of the situation is the numbers are higher now than they ever were in the first wave. What we're actually dealing with now is, in my mind, something completely separate to the first wave. You know, we had an infection that we were dealing with. The government came up with a strategy to deal with the first round of infections, but it feels to me like we've actually, it feels a bit like this is version 2.0. This is round two, and how we deal with things now is slightly different. We can take all the lessons that we've learned from the first round and apply them to this round, but we are actually starting again. That seems to be a lot of the thinking that's been directing and driving the meetings and the correspondence we've been getting from NAISA, the National Association of Independent Schools, from ISASA, from the Command Council, because a lot of this is coming directly from them, and the DBE. ### Passage: What differentiation means for independent schools [05:14-06:30, 252 words] Note (AI): Clarifies which decisions an independent school can make itself and why Edu Inc can teach online while campuses stay closed. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=314): > As an independent school, you have a discretionary latitude. How are you applying it now, and what can parents expect next week? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=321): > Let me just explain that latitude, because I think a lot of parents are under the impression that in the independent space we get to call the shots suitable to our own school. For a large part, that is actually the case. In the school space, they're calling that differentiation. Do the private schools or the independent schools rather get differentiation or differentiated treatment? And the reason these questions come up is because we did get that differentiation last year. We saw it when we came down to level four and then level three, where the government schools were allowed to bring back grades seven and twelve, for example, the independent schools were allowed to bring back other grades, as long as we could suitably prove that our safety protocols were sufficient. However, that only goes so far. When directives are coming to us from the command council, for example, it's exactly the same as the alcohol ban. We don't get to say that we are going to do things differently. How the differentiation will work for a school like ours, however, is that we don't have to remain closed, as in no children getting any schooling until the 15th of February. We can go online, because as we saw from last year, we have the ability to do that very successfully. There's absolutely no reason we wouldn't do that. ### Passage: Monday staggered campus visit and first week plan [06:51-09:21, 510 words] Note (AI): Gives parents the exact grade-by-grade timetable for textbook collection, sanitising breaks, new-pupil induction and the move online. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=411): > We have the logistical challenge of making sure that the children have everything that they need to be able to do their schooling from home program. What we've decided to do is bring the children onto campus on Monday, but we'll bring them in in a staggered cohort approach so that we can sanitize in between the cohorts and make sure that everybody remains safe. We'll probably not have children in classrooms much on Monday either. We'll keep them outside in the assembly space for the greater part of while they're on campus. So the plan is this, parents, have a piece of paper and a pencil ready so that you know what the plan is. 7:30 to 9:30, all grade four to seven children need to be on campus. Please drop them off at 7:30 and collect them again at 9:30. In that time, we will issue them with all of their textbooks, and we'll spend some time with them just going through what they need to be able to do online to be able to do their schooling from home. We are also going to do a quick checklist with them to make sure that they have the suitable equipment that we discussed in the last podcast, which I will remind everybody of shortly. Then we're going to take a break between 9:30 and 10 o'clock where we get to sanitize the school. So you collect the grade fours to sevens by 9:30, give us the half an hour with no children on campus to sanitize. Then from 10 till 12, we would like the eights and nines on campus. Then we will go through the same process with them, issue all their textbooks, go through all the procedures, go through the checklist to make sure that they have their tech. From twelve till twelve thirty, we will sanitize again. Then from twelve thirty till two thirty, we would like the tens to twelves on campus, please. That also includes the four students who are class of 2020, please come onto campus so that you can hear exactly what you need to be doing. On Monday, we would like all the learners to come to school in their uniforms. We want them getting into the mindset that the school year has begun. And our new families, if you don't yet have your uniforms, you'll be collecting them on Monday as well. Tuesday morning, seven thirty sharp, we will be online carrying on with our schooling from home program. With the exception of our new students, we want them on campus in the classrooms with us. They will be sitting in the classroom, safely distanced from the teacher, but this will give us the chance just to do a little bit of induction and orientation with them, show them exactly the ins and outs of Google Classroom while the teachers are teaching, and showing them how we operate our Schooling from Home program. Then, very simply, from Wednesday morning, the whole school is at home, Schooling from Home again. ### Passage: Home equipment checklist and load shedding [09:21-10:07, 183 words] Note (AI): Lists the equipment pupils need for Schooling from Home and how to prepare for power cuts. Gershom Aitchison, host [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=561): > During the Monday visit when children are on campus, you're doing an audit of what they have at home. Can you just remind us, please, what it is they're supposed to have before they do Schooling from Home on Tuesday? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=571): > We're looking at two screens on the work desk at home, one for work and one to communicate with the class. They need to have their webcams, their microphones, their over-ear headsets. They need to have their decent internet connection. Then we have thrown in the mix ESCOM and the fact that they have started load shedding again. We need to bear all of that in mind. So obviously first prize would be a generator at home, but if that's not possible, a UPS is pretty essential just to keep that Wi-Fi running. It'll give a couple of hours on the battery life on the laptop. I don't think it's going to get the child through the whole school day, but at least they won't be missing as much of the lesson. They can catch up that and must work a bit later. ### Passage: Pragmatism, review cycle and a call for patience [10:17-12:52, 510 words] Note (AI): Sets out hospital pressure, the two-weekly review commitment and the Executive Head's appeal to parents for patience and mutual support. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=617): > We're sitting in a situation now where the decisions are being made by government because of the pressure on the hospitals. Despite the fact that we are sitting anywhere between 15 and 18,000 infections a day, we have fewer than 700 hospitals in South Africa, and that's counting both government and private. So the pressure on the health system right now is immense, and that is why they are doing what they're doing. The executive director, obviously also last night in the meeting, Lebochan Munjani, said something very profound which really resonated with me, and he said that all these decisions that are being made right now are about pragmatism. It's not about the way we want the world to be right now. Obviously, the way that we want the world to be right now is that we want our children on campus. Edu Inc is an on-campus school. We want to have our children on campus as quickly as we possibly can. That being the case, we will be reviewing the situation every two weeks. We'll be taking all the information into account, the numbers, the directives that we're receiving from all these different bodies as frequently as we are, and we will continue to review. At the same time, we know that Isasa will continually be lobbying to get grades back on campus. My appeal to the parents is simply that we are patient, which is difficult in such stressful times. I encourage parents to remember that our children are still very fortunate. You know, we've got a situation where they can have the technology they need to continue their education. I believe that to be successful in such a difficult period of time, it's an all hands on deck approach where we are kind to each other, we show each other a little bit of grace and compassion. We take these punches, we roll with these punches. Why does this lockdown feel so different to the last one? Because it is more stressful this time around. The first time around, we had no idea the length of time we were going to have to contend with this, and the fatigue has definitely set in. I believe that's part of where the stress is coming from. This is where we need to acknowledge that we are in this, and we just have to keep going through it. We will get there in the end. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we will one day all be back on campus, and our school will be running. We'll be doing our thing. We have a bit of a road to walk. We have a journey to walk before we get there. Let's support each other. Let's support our single parent families who are juggling the schooling from home and their jobs. Let's support our children who are feeling very stressed by all of this. Let's support our staff, whose number one priority is your child's health and education. And let's do it together as a team, Team Edu Inc. ### Quotes > "Some of us have attended the funerals of people that we know who have died of COVID." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=195) > "it feels a bit like this is version 2.0. This is round two, and how we deal with things now is slightly different." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=281) > "So the plan is this, parents, have a piece of paper and a pencil ready so that you know what the plan is." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=438) > "all these decisions that are being made right now are about pragmatism." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=649) > "I encourage parents to remember that our children are still very fortunate." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=695) > "We take these punches, we roll with these punches." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=715) > "I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we will one day all be back on campus, and our school will be running." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [12:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=741) > "Let's support our staff, whose number one priority is your child's health and education." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=763) > "And let's do it together as a team, Team Edu Inc." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=769) ### Claims > "this morning, the Department of Basic Education and the Deputy Minister of Education released some information saying that school opening would be delayed by two weeks." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [00:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=28) > "Remember that government schools had planned to go back on the 25th of January, that was the teachers, and then the 27th for children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=78) > "So in the mind of the government, the two weeks is taking them to the 15th of February. In our context, however, in the private school context, where we were opening on the 18th, it's more like a month." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=84) > "We actually opened on the 13th as originally planned, because we've had teachers in training, full-day training since Wednesday." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=98) > "we've had as many emails and, messages and calls asking us to open the school as we've had asking us to keep the school closed." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Patience and mutual support · [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=123) > "Nearly 2,000 teachers have died since the end of 2020, or towards the end of 2020, we lost that many teachers. We lost over 1,000 teachers who were marking in the government's exams." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 impact on teachers · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=157) > "This is no longer a situation where we're sitting looking at numbers on graphs and watching progressions and increases and decreases." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 impact on teachers · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=180) > "From Tuesday, however, a lot more information was presented to him as these meetings started, and he was getting a lot of pressure from the unions. And when he started seeing all of the stats and information coming in, he did have a change of heart." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=232) > "While education is first and foremost on all of our minds, the health and safety of our children and teachers Has to take priority. The reality of the situation is the numbers are higher now than they ever were in the first wave." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 impact on teachers · [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=252) > "We can take all the lessons that we've learned from the first round and apply them to this round, but we are actually starting again." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=288) > "We saw it when we came down to level four and then level three, where the government schools were allowed to bring back grades seven and twelve, for example, the independent schools were allowed to bring back other grades, as long as we could suitably prove that our safety protocols were sufficient." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independent school differentiation · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=344) > "When directives are coming to us from the command council, for example, it's exactly the same as the alcohol ban. We don't get to say that we are going to do things differently." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independent school differentiation · [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=361) > "How the differentiation will work for a school like ours, however, is that we don't have to remain closed, as in no children getting any schooling until the 15th of February. We can go online, because as we saw from last year, we have the ability to do that very successfully." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independent school differentiation · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=371) > "What we've decided to do is bring the children onto campus on Monday, but we'll bring them in in a staggered cohort approach so that we can sanitize in between the cohorts and make sure that everybody remains safe." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=418) > "7:30 to 9:30, all grade four to seven children need to be on campus. Please drop them off at 7:30 and collect them again at 9:30. In that time, we will issue them with all of their textbooks," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [07:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=444) > "Then from 10 till 12, we would like the eights and nines on campus. Then we will go through the same process with them, issue all their textbooks, go through all the procedures," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [08:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=488) > "Then from twelve thirty till two thirty, we would like the tens to twelves on campus, please. That also includes the four students who are class of 2020," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=504) > "On Monday, we would like all the learners to come to school in their uniforms. We want them getting into the mindset that the school year has begun." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=518) > "Tuesday morning, seven thirty sharp, we will be online carrying on with our schooling from home program. With the exception of our new students, we want them on campus in the classrooms with us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=531) > "this will give us the chance just to do a little bit of induction and orientation with them, show them exactly the ins and outs of Google Classroom while the teachers are teaching," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=545) > "Then, very simply, from Wednesday morning, the whole school is at home, Schooling from Home again." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from Home plan · [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=556) > "We're looking at two screens on the work desk at home, one for work and one to communicate with the class. They need to have their webcams, their microphones, their over-ear headsets." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Home tech requirements · [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=571) > "So obviously first prize would be a generator at home, but if that's not possible, a UPS is pretty essential just to keep that Wi-Fi running." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Home tech requirements · [09:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=590) > "It's evident that it's going to be as essential in 2021 that we remain nimble and adapt and adjust to what's happening around us." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Patience and mutual support · [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=608) > "Despite the fact that we are sitting anywhere between 15 and 18,000 infections a day, we have fewer than 700 hospitals in South Africa, and that's counting both government and private." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 impact on teachers · [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=624) > "he said that all these decisions that are being made right now are about pragmatism. It's not about the way we want the world to be right now." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=648) > "Edu Inc is an on-campus school. We want to have our children on campus as quickly as we possibly can. That being the case, we will be reviewing the situation every two weeks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School reopening delays · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=662) > "At the same time, we know that Isasa will continually be lobbying to get grades back on campus." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independent school differentiation · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=682) > "I believe that to be successful in such a difficult period of time, it's an all hands on deck approach where we are kind to each other, we show each other a little bit of grace and compassion." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Patience and mutual support · [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=704) > "Because it is more stressful this time around. The first time around, we had no idea the length of time we were going to have to contend with this, and the fatigue has definitely set in." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Patience and mutual support · [12:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=722) > "Let's support our single parent families who are juggling the schooling from home and their jobs. Let's support our children who are feeling very stressed by all of this." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Patience and mutual support · [12:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988442_high.mp3#t=754) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Changes, delays and clarity Jax Aithchison (Executive Head | Edu Inc) Today the Edu Inc Executive Head clarified when and how we go back to school this year. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Welcome to 2021 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2021-01-07-welcome-to-2021/ - Date: 2021-01-07 (as at 2021-01-07) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Return to school 2021, COVID-19 schooling scenarios, Hybrid classroom design, Home learning tech setup, Online learning behaviour, Uniform and cell phone policy - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988443 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short start-of-year briefing from Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. Headmaster Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head Jacqueline Aitchison answer an interviewer's questions on when school restarts in 2021 (18 January), the three scenarios for how it may run under COVID-19, and how families should prepare. They describe the hybrid classroom the staff prototyped, give a detailed home tech setup (webcam, headphones, two screens, dedicated space, fibre internet), and set out behaviour expectations for online lessons, including a reinstated no-cell-phone policy on campus. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline Aitchison says school starts on 18 January, after a SASA directive and consultation with other private school heads, pending the president's expected address around the 15th. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=58) [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=63) [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=74)) - Gershom Aitchison outlines three scenarios: everyone on campus, everyone at home, or a split. In the split, attendance is decided by academic performance, meeting deadlines and online behaviour. ([01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=118) [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=123) [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=140) [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=161) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=175)) - Jacqueline Aitchison says the ideal hybrid classroom replicates the physical classroom as closely as possible, with the teacher having full audio and visual of pupils at home and in class. ([05:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=347) [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=396)) - Gershom Aitchison separates technology for communication, technology for work, and desirable tech behaviour as three distinct areas that emerged from empathy interviews. ([06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=437)) - Gershom Aitchison argues nothing works without stable fibre internet, recommending roughly 10 megs per household member over 3G or 4G. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=572) [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=608) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616)) - Both heads treat excuses such as broken webcams or updating computers as delay tactics showing a lack of preparation, and say what is unacceptable in class is unacceptable online. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=705) [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=714) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=762) [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=776)) - Jacqueline Aitchison says quality education has become synonymous with health and safety since the pandemic began. ([15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=906) [15:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=917)) **Three key areas for a successful hybrid or home learning space (as described by Gershom Aitchison)** ([06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=437) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=472) [08:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=512) [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=572) [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=579) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616)) 1. Technology for communication: a functional webcam, headphones and microphone, with camera and microphone on during class. 2. Technology for work: a second screen for work, desk space for a book and textbook, a dedicated space, and fibre internet. 3. Tech behaviour: the desirable behaviour that allows effective communication and work on technology in a remote space. **Lessons** - Gershom Aitchison advises preparing psychologically for the new year, including haircuts, neat appearance and knowing the safety protocols, not just buying stationery. ([04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=246) [04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=279)) - Per Gershom Aitchison, pupils working from home should use two screens: one for the live class and one for doing work. ([08:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=512)) - Gershom Aitchison says blended learning combines technology with handwritten notes and physical textbooks, since reading everything on screen is neither possible nor healthy. ([09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=543)) - Jacqueline Aitchison advises switching the computer on early so updates finish before lessons begin. ([12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=720)) - Gershom Aitchison frames behaviour as something learners control and can change, and says raising it early gives students time to reflect. ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=200) [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=214) [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=967)) **Who it's for:** Parents, pupils and teachers of Edu Inc preparing for the 2021 school year, and school leaders or parents elsewhere looking for a practical checklist for hybrid and home learning during COVID-19. **Facts stated in the episode** - School resumes on 18 January 2021, according to Jacqueline Aitchison. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=58)) - The president was expected to address the nation around the 15th of the month on further restrictions. ([01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=74)) - Gershom Aitchison notes that when COVID numbers were last this high, South Africa was in level five lockdown. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=93)) - Grade stationery lists were to be posted in the website's resource section at noon on Friday. ([04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=266)) - Gershom Aitchison recommends 10 megs of internet bandwidth per person in the household. ([10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616)) - Jacqueline Aitchison says Gershom Aitchison has been doing a Harvard certificate in advanced educational leadership. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=378)) - Gershom Aitchison says WhatsApp, Hangouts and Instagram were disruptive in classrooms in term three. ([14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=852)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When does Edu Inc go back to school in 2021?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says school resumes on 18 January, despite what the calendar says; the interviewer confirms Monday at 7:30. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=58)) **Q: Why did the school delay the start to 18 January?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison cites a SASA directive, consultation with other private school heads, and waiting for the president's address around the 15th. Gershom Aitchison adds that rising COVID numbers make three days to decide prudent. ([01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=63) [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=74) [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=93)) **Q: How will school operate if COVID restrictions change?** A: Gershom Aitchison describes three scenarios: all on campus, all schooling from home, or some on campus and some at home, with the split decided by set criteria. ([01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=118) [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=123) [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=140) [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=161)) **Q: How does the school decide which pupils attend campus in a split scenario?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison lists three quantifiable criteria: academic performance, ability to meet deadlines, and online behaviour. She calls online behaviour one of the most important. ([02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=175) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=191)) **Q: What equipment does my child need for learning from home?** A: Gershom Aitchison lists a functional webcam, over-ear headphones and microphone, two screens, desk space for books, a dedicated space, possibly a printer and scanner, and stable fibre internet. ([06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=472) [08:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=512) [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=572) [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=579) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616)) **Q: How much internet speed does a household need for online school?** A: Gershom Aitchison recommends about 10 megs per person: a 10 meg line for one person, 40 or 50 for four people, and 100 for ten. He advises fibre over 3G or 4G. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=572) [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616)) **Q: What online behaviours does the school consider unacceptable?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison calls excuses like broken webcams or rebooting computers delay tactics. Gershom Aitchison says watching YouTube, listening to music, surfing or gaming during lessons is unacceptable, as it would be in class. ([11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=680) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=705) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=762) [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=776)) **Q: Can pupils bring cell phones to Edu Inc?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says no, unless parents apply. Older learners needing transport arrangements bring phones in a Ziploc bag to be sprayed and signed in. Gershom Aitchison says apps were disruptive in term three. ([13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=818) [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=838) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=852)) **Q: What uniform rules apply when school returns?** A: Gershom Aitchison says uniforms and the hair policy return. Jacqueline Aitchison says bandanas and hats remain not permissible because children leave them lying around for others to touch. ([04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=246) [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=311)) ### Passage: Three return scenarios and campus selection criteria [01:58-03:19, 243 words] Note (AI): Sets out the three possible ways school will run in 2021 and the three criteria used to decide who attends campus in a split scenario. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=118): > I think that's part of what we're waiting for, some direction from the government, and we anticipate three scenarios, the first being that all students and all faculty are back on campus, and as Edu Inc is an on-campus school, that is the, the most ideal scenario for us, and we are preparing for that so that we can have everybody back on campus. The second scenario is that we are all required to stay at home, because that's a responsible thing to do, or that the government has enforced restrictions to lower the COVID numbers, and we've also done that before last year, and we've had it, we've done it with great success. So scenario one, everyone on campus, scenario two, everybody schooling from home. And then the third scenario is that some of us are on campus and that some of us are at home. Who is on campus is determined by three criteria that the teachers and the leadership of the school have identified. This is Aitchison. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=175): > We looked for a very quantifiable criteria to take all the subjectivity out of that decision. and those three criteria are very simply the academic performance of the child, the ability to meet deadlines of the child, and the online behaviors of the child. The online behaviors probably being one of the most important factors, because if those behaviors aren't what we need them to be, it completely undermines the schooling from home process. ### Passage: Designing the ideal hybrid classroom [05:47-06:55, 221 words] Note (AI): Explains why the school built hybrid classrooms, how staff prototyped them in a design workshop, and what the design aims to replicate. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=347): > Well, maybe I should give you a little bit of background on that before we go into the, the actual detail of what they look like. Really in anticipation of COVID not being finished with us and that it was very likely that even if we do get to go back to school on the 18th of January, there will probably be periods where the children have to be at home on and off. The hybrid classroom has become a very pressing need for all the schools, and a good functional hybrid classroom. So towards the end of last year, we took some of the learning that Mr. Aitchison had taken from his, Harvard course, he's been doing a certificate in advanced educational leadership, and we took some of that Harvard training that he's done, and we did a design workshop with our staff, where they actually got to prototype the ideal hybrid classroom. And for us, the ideal hybrid classroom is one that replicates the actual classroom as closely as possible. In other words, the children are hearing each other interact, whether they're at home or in the classroom, and the teacher has full visual and audio of all of those scenarios, whether the children are at home on multiple different computers and the children sitting in front of them. ### Passage: Tech for communication and tech for work [06:56-09:31, 460 words] Note (AI): Gives parents the concrete equipment list and the reasoning behind webcams, headphones, two screens and hard-copy notes. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416): > During this process, we identified three key areas that we were working on. They came out of the empathy interviews with the students as well as the teachers and faculty. And the first one is that for a successful hybrid learning space or learning from home space, we need to identify technology for communication. The second thing is we need to identify technology for work, and that is different from technology for communication, because we can use technology to communicate and not do any work, or we can use technology to work and not do any communication on it. And then the third thing is the tech behavior, the desirable tech behavior that allows you to communicate and work effectively on technology in a remote space. So when discussing technology for communication, there are a couple of things that you need to be prepared for, and that is first and foremost, the students need a functional webcam. The students also need Headphones and a microphone, ideally over-ear headphones because they'll be wearing them for a long period of time, and no longer is it going to be acceptable for your microphone to be off during class or your camera to be off during class. Effective learning face-to-face learning happens when we can see and hear you at all times, it means that your peers and your teachers can read your body language and they can see what's going on. The second thing, tech for work, that is the working space that you need to work, and the first thing that is the most important is that you need a second screen. The reason we need two screens is that your one screen will be used for communication, and that is where your class will be online, that you can see everybody in that classroom so that you are participating in it, and the second screen is the screen that you'll use to do work. That is where you're typing a document or something like that. You also need to have space on your desktop with all your tech in place to have a book open where you can be making notes and also a textbook open that you can be reading from. It is not possible to be reading everything off the computer. It is also not totally healthy. It is also not totally healthy not to be using your handwriting to do physical notes, and this is what blended learning is all about, using technology and the hard copy versions of making notes and your textbook. So the space at home, two screens, one for work, one for communication, and a place where you can put a textbook out to read and also make notes as you need to. ### Passage: Dedicated workspace and fibre internet requirements [09:32-11:10, 327 words] Note (AI): Specifies the workspace, printer/scanner and bandwidth rule of thumb, plus the school's offer to help parents source equipment. Gershom Aitchison, host [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=572): > You also need to have a dedicated space. Based on what I've just said, you can see that the learning space or the workspace is not a transient space. It needs to be dedicated. It needs to be a place where you're not going to be disrupted and where it's not a thoroughfare at home or something like that. Some students may require a printer in that space and a scanner, depending on their personal needs, especially if they are, you know, in mathematics, they are busy writing, for example, and then they would like to send the handwritten note or make it digital so that the teachers can read it, they'll need a printer and a scanner to do that. The last thing that is really, really important, and I cannot emphasize that none of this can be possible if you do not have a stable fiber internet line at home. We often find that 3G or 4G wireless is not stable, and I highly recommend that you get a stable fiber internet connection. You need 10 megs per person in the household. If there's one person in the household, a 10 meg line is fine. If there are 10 people in the household, you need a 100 meg line. So if there are four people in the household, a 40 or 50 meg line will be sufficient. And I emphasize, without a stable internet connection, You cannot run the tech for communication, and you cannot run the tech for learning or for work. And Mrs. Aitchison, if you recall the email and podcast that we spoke about at the end of last year, and I extend my hand again for people who are unsure, please drop me an email, and I can help you with those specs and even connections. We are getting the technology at a really good price, and we have the licenses that make it cheaper for parents if they need it. ### Passage: Unacceptable online behaviours and cell phone policy [11:20-14:32, 572 words] Note (AI): Lays out the behaviour expectations for remote lessons and the reinstated no-cell-phone rule, with the reasons behind both. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=680): > Well, I think it comes back to what we spoke about. We've been at this for the better part of a year, and it's likely that we are going to have to deal with this going forward for an indefinite period of time. We don't know what's going to happen with the vaccines and what impact that's going to have on getting the kids to school. There are unacceptable behaviors that, again, last year really highlighted. behaviors such as the commentary of my camera isn't working, my webcam isn't working, my computer's updating or it's rebooting. As far as we're concerned, these are delay tactics. That just demonstrates a lack of preparation. Get up in the morning, switch your computer on. We've said this in a previous podcast, so that any updates, et cetera, are happening before you sit down and get it going for your day at school. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=729): > Can I add in, my Wi-Fi connection has dropped. My computer's battery is dead. Because again, it points to a lack of preparation and a lack of dedicated workspace. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [12:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=740): > We do expect that the equipment that the learners are using is up to spec by this point. We've had nearly a year to get this right, so let's make sure that it is right going into 2021. So essentially the type of behaviors we're talking about are the behaviors that Delay teaching and learning during a lesson, take away from teaching and learning during a lesson. they're coming from the children who are spending more headspace on trying to circumvent the lesson than actually just being part of it. It's disruptive, it's unacceptable, it is not acceptable in the classroom, and it is therefore unacceptable during schooling from home. Gershom Aitchison, host [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=776): > I think the easiest way to put it is, in a normal classroom, would you be sitting watching a YouTube video? Would you be listening to music? Would you be surfing the web? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=785): > Playing Minecraft. Or Gershom Aitchison, host [13:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=786): > playing Minecraft, or Solitaire, or whatever game is taking your fancy at this point? The answer is absolutely no. So it is unacceptable behavior for students to be doing it in the digital learning space as well. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=798): > And on that note, when we do go back to school, even if we are in groups or cohorts, along with the reinstituted uniform policy, we are reinstituting the no cell phone on campus policy. Despite what your children are telling you parents, WhatsApp groups are not necessary during lessons. Children may not bring their cell phones to campus at all. If parents would like their children to have their cell phone on campus, the parent will be required to submit an application for the cell phone. The only consideration is for learners who are older and who need to make transport arrangements such as Ubers after school. Those learners will be required to bring their cell phones in a Ziploc bag so that we can spray it down before it is handed in and signed in like it used to be. Gershom Aitchison, host [14:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=847): > I think this comes to the heart of why we have the cell phone policy in the first place. We found in term three that even in the classroom, that WhatsApp, Hangouts, Instagram were very disruptive and distracting in the classroom. And we're no longer being used for a tool for communication in most classes and instances, and became one of those undesirable behaviors that we need to resolve. ### Quotes > "because behavior is something that we do control and something that we can change." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=214) > "So we know what's required, we know what we need to do to get the job done, so let's get it done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=221) > "Effective learning face-to-face learning happens when we can see and hear you at all times," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=492) > "I cannot emphasize that none of this can be possible if you do not have a stable fiber internet line at home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=608) > "As far as we're concerned, these are delay tactics. That just demonstrates a lack of preparation." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=714) > "We've had nearly a year to get this right, so let's make sure that it is right going into 2021." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=745) > "Despite what your children are telling you parents, WhatsApp groups are not necessary during lessons." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=812) > "We can offer a very high quality of education. As long as they are healthy enough to receive it." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [15:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=917) > "We are going into this year with our eyes open. We know what we're good at." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=960) ### Claims > "Despite what the current calendar says, we will actually be going back to school on the 18th of January." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=58) > "We made that decision after taking into consideration a directive that was sent out by SASA and consulting with other heads of private schools who are doing the same thing." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=63) > "And the reason for that is we are all waiting on tender hooks to hear what the government has to say on hopefully the 15th of the month, where the president should be addressing us again with regards to any further restrictions" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=74) > "We're seeing the COVID numbers rise quite dramatically, and in our mind, when the numbers were this high last time, we were in level five lockdown. And I think three days to make the right decision is probably the most prudent thing to do at this point." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=93) > "we anticipate three scenarios, the first being that all students and all faculty are back on campus, and as Edu Inc is an on-campus school, that is the, the most ideal scenario for us, and we are preparing for that so that we can have everybody back on campus." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 schooling scenarios · [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=123) > "The second scenario is that we are all required to stay at home, because that's a responsible thing to do, or that the government has enforced restrictions to lower the COVID numbers," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 schooling scenarios · [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=140) > "And then the third scenario is that some of us are on campus and that some of us are at home. Who is on campus is determined by three criteria that the teachers and the leadership of the school have identified." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 schooling scenarios · [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=161) > "We looked for a very quantifiable criteria to take all the subjectivity out of that decision. and those three criteria are very simply the academic performance of the child, the ability to meet deadlines of the child, and the online behaviors of the child." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 schooling scenarios · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=175) > "The online behaviors probably being one of the most important factors, because if those behaviors aren't what we need them to be, it completely undermines the schooling from home process." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=191) > "I think that the online behaviors were some of the biggest impedances to academic success last year. And I look forward to learners having learned from those, their successes academically, and reflect on their behaviors, because behavior is something that we do control and something that we can change." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=200) > "So we know when we're going back, we don't yet know how we're going back, but we have three scenarios, and we'll clarify that in another podcast closer to the time of returning to school." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: Return to school 2021 · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=226) > "I think the preparation is important psychologically just to get our mindset right about learning again in the new year, and that includes getting your hair cut, boys getting shaved, making sure that they are looking neat and tidy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and cell phone policy · [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=246) > "And under the resource section on our website, noon tomorrow, Friday, there will be a list for your grade of what stationery required." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=266) > "it's important to reorientate yourself with the safety protocols that we put in place, how we dress, what is expected, what we have to bring onto campus, what we have to take away with us, et cetera." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Return to school 2021 · [04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=279) > "I'd like to remind you that Sabanas, bandanas, hats, et cetera, are still not permissible. These are the things that the kids take off and leave lying around and that people pick up and touch." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and cell phone policy · [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=311) > "we took some of the learning that Mr. Aitchison had taken from his, Harvard course, he's been doing a certificate in advanced educational leadership, and we took some of that Harvard training that he's done, and we did a design workshop with our staff, where they actually got to prototype the ideal hybrid classroom." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classroom design · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=378) > "And for us, the ideal hybrid classroom is one that replicates the actual classroom as closely as possible. In other words, the children are hearing each other interact, whether they're at home or in the classroom, and the teacher has full visual and audio of all of those scenarios," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classroom design · [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=396) > "During this process, we identified three key areas that we were working on. They came out of the empathy interviews with the students as well as the teachers and faculty." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid classroom design · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=416) > "The second thing is we need to identify technology for work, and that is different from technology for communication, because we can use technology to communicate and not do any work, or we can use technology to work and not do any communication on it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=437) > "the students need a functional webcam. The students also need Headphones and a microphone, ideally over-ear headphones because they'll be wearing them for a long period of time, and no longer is it going to be acceptable for your microphone to be off during class or your camera to be off during class." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=472) > "The reason we need two screens is that your one screen will be used for communication, and that is where your class will be online, that you can see everybody in that classroom so that you are participating in it, and the second screen is the screen that you'll use to do work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [08:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=512) > "It is not possible to be reading everything off the computer. It is also not totally healthy. It is also not totally healthy not to be using your handwriting to do physical notes, and this is what blended learning is all about, using technology and the hard copy versions of making notes and your textbook." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=543) > "It needs to be dedicated. It needs to be a place where you're not going to be disrupted and where it's not a thoroughfare at home or something like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=579) > "We often find that 3G or 4G wireless is not stable, and I highly recommend that you get a stable fiber internet connection. You need 10 megs per person in the household." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=616) > "We are getting the technology at a really good price, and we have the licenses that make it cheaper for parents if they need it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home learning tech setup · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=663) > "behaviors such as the commentary of my camera isn't working, my webcam isn't working, my computer's updating or it's rebooting. As far as we're concerned, these are delay tactics. That just demonstrates a lack of preparation." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=705) > "Get up in the morning, switch your computer on. We've said this in a previous podcast, so that any updates, et cetera, are happening before you sit down and get it going for your day at school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=720) > "they're coming from the children who are spending more headspace on trying to circumvent the lesson than actually just being part of it. It's disruptive, it's unacceptable, it is not acceptable in the classroom, and it is therefore unacceptable during schooling from home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=762) > "I think the easiest way to put it is, in a normal classroom, would you be sitting watching a YouTube video? Would you be listening to music? Would you be surfing the web?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=776) > "Children may not bring their cell phones to campus at all. If parents would like their children to have their cell phone on campus, the parent will be required to submit an application for the cell phone." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and cell phone policy · [13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=818) > "Those learners will be required to bring their cell phones in a Ziploc bag so that we can spray it down before it is handed in and signed in like it used to be." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and cell phone policy · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=838) > "We found in term three that even in the classroom, that WhatsApp, Hangouts, Instagram were very disruptive and distracting in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and cell phone policy · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=852) > "I would have said to you it's the high quality education of the children in our care. That, a year down the track, has become completely synonymous with health and safety as well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 schooling scenarios · [15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=906) > "one of the reasons we've raised it now is that it gives parents and more so students time to reflect on their behavior and what they're going to get right," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning behaviour · [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988443_high.mp3#t=967) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Your 3 burning questions Gershom Aitchison (Headmaster) Jax Aitchison (Executive Head) Welcome to the New Year. While 2020 may be behind us, the Covid-19 pandemic is not. As the start of the 2021 academic year approaches we answer your top 3 burning questions... 1) When do we start? 2) How do we start? and 3) What do we have to do to prepare for the start? Edu Inc Website Resources (for stationery lists) · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Budget 2021 and Covid-19 Learnings Applied - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-11-19-budget-2021-and-covid-19-learnings/ - Date: 2020-11-19 (as at 2020-11-19) - Guest: Gary Sayers - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Hybrid learning, Home technology requirements, COVID-19 costs, Budget 2021 and fees, Teacher salaries, Preparing for the future, School values and team - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988444 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Gary Sayers - MD · Girder Consulting - Edu Inc board member with a financial background; his wife is a teacher, and he provides independent insight to the board, usually with a financial bent. In their own words: > "I've got a financial background, but I also have quite a lot of time in with, siblings and family members in teaching posts. my wife's a teacher, so I provide a lot of independent insight to the board, usually with a financial bent." [00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=33) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Headmaster Gershom Aitchison and board member Gary Sayers review 2020 at Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12. The interviewer puts the questions. Gershom explains how the school distinguishes blended, hybrid and online learning, sets out home technology requirements, and describes the 2021 hybrid project. Both explain how COVID costs were absorbed without billing parents. They also explain how the 2021 budget is built: a nine percent average fee increase covering 6.5% teacher salary increases, PPE and the hybrid project. Gary brings a financial and board perspective, along with his experience as the husband of a teacher. **Key ideas** - Gershom separates blended learning (analog plus digital work) from hybrid learning (technology used for communication and for doing the work), and from online learning, where there is no engagement with another person. ([02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=179) [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=190) [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=237) [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=268)) - Gershom argues hybrid learning has a physical space and a more important behavioural space. Some students, more of them in Grades 4 to 9, are classroom-dependent. ([02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=143) [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=535) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=773)) - Gershom says the hybrid project aims for the same learning experience in physical and digital spaces, and is not technology for technology's sake. ([14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=843) [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=845) [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=877)) - Gershom states that COVID cost the school 154,538 rand. The money was covered by diverting unused funds rather than billing parents. ([17:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1038) [17:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1066) [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1085) [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1098) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1150)) - Gary and Gershom explain the nine percent average fee increase: 6.5% for teacher salaries, plus about 2.5% for the hybrid project and PPE. ([22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1357) [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1648) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1649) [28:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1685)) - Gershom frames salary alignment as benchmarked, competitive pay to retain teachers. Gary adds that teachers faced extra burdens in 2020. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1198) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273) [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1316) [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1435) [24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1462)) - Gershom argues that preparing children for the future means learning to do the work by doing it, not teaching specific tools. ([15:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=901) [15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=906) [15:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=923) [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=965)) **Lessons** - Gershom identifies an unstable internet connection as one of the biggest frustrations of the term. He recommends at least 10 megs. ([05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=306) [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=322)) - Gershom advises parents that learning from home with live teaching is not online learning, which is student-driven with little contact. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=641) [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=715) [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=723)) - Gershom says the school plans for a rocky 2021 so that it is ready either way. ([11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=667)) - Gershom argues that decisions under pressure are easier when a values framework centred on children's best interests is already in place. ([31:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1882)) - Gershom suggests that schools announcing low or no fee increases may recover costs through extra invoices or levies. ([29:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1757)) **Who it's for:** Current and prospective Edu Inc parents who want to understand 2021 fees, technology expectations and the hybrid project. Also school leaders and board members interested in how one school handled COVID costs, hybrid learning definitions and teacher pay. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom states COVID cost Edu Inc 154,538 rand in 2020. ([18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1085)) - Gershom says 99,923 rand was diverted from printing, paper, outings and photos, and 54,614 rand from the development levy and capital improvements. ([18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1098)) - Gary states the average 2021 fee increase across grades is nine percent. ([27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1649)) - Gershom says the school budgets 6.5% salary increases for teachers. ([22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1357)) - Gershom says teacher salaries account for almost two thirds of the school's expenses. ([21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273)) - Gershom says every ninety thousand rand in the budget equals a one percent fee increase. ([28:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1685)) - Gershom says the 2021 budget includes about fifty thousand rand for PPE and 150,000 to 200,000 rand for the hybrid project. ([19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1177)) - The interviewer states only two teachers are leaving and two new teachers will join the school next year. ([25:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1509)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the difference between blended learning and hybrid learning?** A: Gershom says blended learning is doing work with both analog and digital processes. Hybrid learning uses technology both to communicate and to do the work. Watching a video and taking notes without engaging another person is online learning, not hybrid learning. ([02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=179) [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=190) [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=237) [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=268)) **Q: What computer and internet setup does Edu Inc recommend for learning at home?** A: Gershom recommends a stable internet connection of at least 10 megs and computers with eight gigs of RAM and ideally 15.6 inch screens. He also mentions a webcam, a second screen, a UPS and a desk big enough for a textbook and an A4 book. ([05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=306) [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=322) [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=355)) **Q: How much did COVID cost Edu Inc in 2020, and did parents pay extra?** A: Gershom says COVID cost 154,538 rand. The school diverted 99,923 rand from printing, outings and photos, and 54,614 rand from the development levy and capital improvements. The costs were not passed on to parents. ([17:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1066) [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1085) [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1098) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1150)) **Q: What is Edu Inc's school fee increase for 2021?** A: Gary says the average increase across the grades is nine percent. Gershom explains that 6.5% covers teacher salaries and the rest funds the hybrid project and PPE, with every ninety thousand rand equal to one percent. ([22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1357) [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1648) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1649) [28:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1685)) **Q: Why is Edu Inc aligning teacher salaries?** A: Gershom says salaries are almost two thirds of expenses and are benchmarked through salary surveys. The aim is competitive pay to retain skilled teachers. Gary notes it is the third year of a three-year plan to align pricing and salaries with the market. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1198) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273) [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1316)) **Q: Will Edu Inc send extra bills for PPE or require new laptops in 2021?** A: Gershom says no additional costs will be passed on to parents and that technology will be available at school. PPE is budgeted as a line item of about fifty thousand rand. ([16:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1015) [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1177) [28:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1719)) **Q: Will students be allowed cell phones at Edu Inc in 2021?** A: Gershom says that from January it will be no cell phones again, and students should leave their technology at home. ([29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1740)) **Q: Has Edu Inc been doing online learning during lockdown?** A: Gershom says no one at the school has done online learning. Students experienced learning from home with face-to-face teaching, which differs from student-driven online learning with little contact. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=641) [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=715) [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=723)) ### Passage: Blended, hybrid and online learning defined [02:59-04:51, 350 words] Note (AI): Gershom sets out the school's working definitions of blended, hybrid and online learning. These definitions underpin the rest of the discussion and the hybrid project. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=179): > I think the first step, Gavin, was identifying that blended learning, which is a term that we used, like everybody else initially, to describe a hybrid learning space. And just for clarity again, blended learning has been around for a long time. It's doing work in a classroom using an analog and a digital process. So in other words, typing in on a document while reading out of a textbook, which is a book lying on your table, or reading an article off your computer and then writing notes on it. That's a blended learning space. I think that it's very much a 21st century skill. Everybody, doesn't matter what work you're doing, has got a computer in front of them and space on their desk to write. That's blended learning. Then hybrid learning is about communication. There's one aspect of it, so the technology is for communicating, and that creates the virtual presence in the classroom or allows people to connect with each other. But then the second part of it is using technology to do the work and represent the work. So hybrid learning is using technology for communication and doing the work, being in a physical space or in a digital space. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=246): > Parents must have thought, well, my child's sitting in front of a laptop, they're doing digital learning, when initially it was just really being used for communication. There wasn't actually any hybrid learning or teaching happening. It was just video conferencing, essentially. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=259): > If you're sitting in front of a computer and you're watching a YouTube video, and from that you're taking notes, and then you are completing an assignment online, that is blended learning because you're taking notes on a piece of paper, but it is not hybrid learning. That is online learning, because you're not engaging with another person. There is no communication happening with another person. So hybrid learning is doing all of that, but communicating with somebody or a class, like a teacher face-to-face or classmates face-to-face, so that you can bring them into the discussion and the learning process as well. ### Passage: Internet, computer and desk requirements for home learning [05:06-06:46, 348 words] Note (AI): Gives parents concrete specifications: internet speed, RAM, screen size, webcam, second screen, UPS and desk space. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=306): > That's a very complex question, Gavin, because it's very much part of the hybrid project that we're working on. I can't answer that question fully at the moment, because part of that process is a design process we're going through with the students and the teachers, and that will complete itself at the end of this year. But what I can say is that a stable internet connection, 10 megs at least, is very, very important. Some of the biggest frustrations in this term, and when you said earlier what worked and what didn't work, what didn't work was kids who didn't have a stable internet connection. It is paramount to the success of the space. It's paramount to the, the flow of the learning as well, because it doesn't disrupt when teachers are going, where are you, where are you? And it doesn't disrupt for the other learners when the class is interrupted. The second thing is computers that work. Every computer needs to have eight gigs of RAM in it. It needs to be 15.6 inch screens for the students if we can do that. And I think it should have a numpad on the side. That's ideal for me because it allows for the biggest screen possible. It allows for the most input options and things like that. Obviously a webcam, second screen is very, very important. And with ESKIM and their problems in this country, I think a UPS is very, very important as well. But it's not just for the laptop or the computer, it's also to keep the, the internet fiber going. I also, in, in part of this discussion with the learners and the teachers is that your desk and your working space at home, doesn't matter if you're a student or a teacher, If you're off campus, your desk and space needs to be big enough that you can have all of that on your desk, plus enough space to have a textbook and an A4 book open in front of you to facilitate the blended learning process as well. ### Passage: Learning from home is not online learning [10:41-12:33, 360 words] Note (AI): Explains the plan for 2021 and why parents considering online schooling have not yet experienced it. Gershom Aitchison, host [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=641): > That's a very big question, Gavin, and I think it's something from a social aspect that we need to explore and understand. Certainly, 2021 is, even if it is a rinse and repeat of 2020 in terms of COVID lockdown, et cetera, because we know what it looks and feels like at this point, our reactions, the way that we deal with it is going to be very, very different. Our philosophy at Edu Inc and what we discussed with the board is that We are preparing for it to be a rocky road like it was in 2020, and our plan is to make sure that we are ready for that, and if the high road happens that it's not, then we're just going to benefit from that space. Regardless of COVID or not in 2021 and moving forward, there is going to be a time and a space where the learners once every two weeks or so are going to be at home for the day doing digital studying, doing learning from home. And I just want to take this moment just to also just clarify once more the concept that you're talking about, and that is no one at Edu Inc at this point has done learning online this year. So if a student is saying, Mom, I want to do online learning, or parents saying, I want to put my child into online learning, you haven't experienced that yet. What you've experienced is learning from home. Online learning is differentiated from schooling at home, which we see as a hybrid solution, because online learning has very little high contact and rich interactions. It is very much student-driven and not driven by the teacher. The teacher doesn't have much role in that space, whereas in the hybrid situation, which Edu Inc has been doing, this whole lockdown, our students have had face-to-face teaching. There's been high contact, there've been very rich interactions, and I think that's the difference. So if you're thinking, I'm going to do online learning or carry on with online learning, you haven't had that experience yet, it is very different from what Edu Inc offered this year. ### Passage: How COVID costs were covered without billing parents [17:46-19:22, 277 words] Note (AI): Gives an itemised account of what COVID cost the school, where the money was diverted from, and what it was spent on. Gershom Aitchison, host [17:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1066): > We managed to divert funds from line items that were not being used or being underutilized. We also have a capital element within that space that we would have used for painting lines on the multi-court, for example, or upgrading classrooms or something like that, that we diverted away from the physical campus, which was not being used. But COVID cost Edu Inc 154,538 rand this year. And I'm being very specific so that the students listening to this and the parents listening to this can understand exactly what we were dealing with. We diverted 99,923 rand from printing, paper, outings, school photos, et cetera. And we diverted 54,614 rand from our development levy and capital improvements to buy the technology What we primarily spent the COVID money on was equipping the teachers with technology so they could effectively facilitate the face-to-face teaching that they were doing, PPE and sanitization equipment to comply with the various, and I mean various, health, government, education departments. The upgrading of the school Wi-Fi, we found that when the students did come back and all the devices were connected, that it was not working optimally, and there was a lot of frustration around that. And there were other COVID-related activities, such as driving around delivering lab equipment to students and EGD equipment and technology to teachers and all of that kind of support. We are proud that we've stuck to our guns in not passing those costs on to the parents. I think that it has helped alleviate some of the stress financially this year that some parents might have felt, and we'll continue to do that. That's what our plan is. ### Passage: What salary alignment means for teachers [21:13-23:30, 424 words] Note (AI): Explains the reasoning behind salary benchmarking, retention, appraisal-based bonuses and the 6.5% increase budget. Gershom Aitchison, host [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273): > Our biggest expense is teacher salaries. I think it accounts for almost two thirds of the expenses every year and what we have to budget for. It's not just paying a salary, it's about the massive investment that Edu Inc puts into teacher training, upskilling our teachers, and making sure that they are delivering as they should. It's a double-edged sword, because while we get great delivery of service from our teachers and great engagement from them, and great investment from them, they are also highly sought after by other schools. As the leadership of Edu Inc, and in conjunction with the board, there's a lot of discussion around the retention of teachers and maintaining the skill sets that we've developed over time. One of the things that happens annually, which is a great benchmark, is that we take part in their SASA salary surveys. We understand what the going rates are for teachers in other private schools. So alignment of our salaries is not overpaying the teachers, it is giving them a competitive salary, A, so that they are content and happy in the workspace, B, so they may be more reluctant to be looking at what's happening on the other side of the fence, and C, that they are suitably remunerated for the excellent work they do. Edu Inc is based on an entrepreneurial model. Teachers don't just get bonuses and thirteens checks for the sake of getting a thirteens check. There is a rigorous termly appraisal process that they go through for their bonuses as well as their salary increases. We budget six and a half percent salary increases at Edu Inc for the teachers. Because of the support of the parents this year in paying their school fees and keeping the school going, we have maintained that six and a half percent. The thirteens checks look like they are on par and that the money is available for the teachers who paid that. They will go through the appraisal process so that we know what percentage of that thirteenth check they're going to get. I can tell you right now that the teachers have done an absolutely amazing job this year. And I think that the students and the results that we are seeing through this process is going to be testament to that. So that's what I mean by aligning the teachers' salaries. It's about paying them what they deserve for the efforts they put in and making sure that we retain our good staff and the enthusiasm of the teachers as well. ### Passage: Breaking down the nine percent fee increase [27:28-29:10, 333 words] Note (AI): Shows how the 2021 fee increase is built up and confirms that no additional invoices or device requirements will follow. Gary Sayers, guest [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1648): > Gavin, the plan was always not to have double-digit increases in any given year, but we maintained a single-digit percentage increase. The average across the grades is nine percent. Gershom Aitchison, host [27:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1662): > One of the contributing factors to it not being double digits is curriculum fee increase for 2021. Marginal. In some cases, it's negative for some grades because of us not being at school and there being a little reserve in that space. So it helped us keep the, the curriculum fee down. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1679): > So nine percent increase, six and a half percent increase for teachers, where's the two and a half percent? Gershom Aitchison, host [28:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1685): > Every ninety thousand rand I need in the budget is one percent increase. In order for us to execute the hybrid project, as well as budget for the PPE next year, that is between two hundred and two hundred and fifty thousand rand. That's where the extra two and a half percent is coming from. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1701): > And you're maintaining the philosophy of the fee you see is the fee you pay, no additional invoices, no bills for PPE, no, here's an instruction, go and buy another laptop. Gershom Aitchison, host [28:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1711): > One hundred percent. As the frustration levels in learners grow, I think there may be purchases of a laptop at home or something like that. We're not going to be passing on any additional costs to the parents. Technology will be available at school for the students. And that if they are coming to school, they don't need to bring their technology to school. In fact, I don't want them to bring their technology to school. One of the biggest disruptions that we had in the term three was the cell phones at school, and we've always known that that's why Edu Inc has had a no cell phone policy. From January, it's going to be no cell phones again. Leave your technology at home. We will have it, except if you've got a concession, as some of the learners have, that to use technology in that space. ### Quotes > "What you've experienced is learning from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=715) > "we're not just doing technology for technology's sake," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=845) > "And fundamentally, we learn to do the work by doing the work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=906) > "Excel might not exist in the future." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [15:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=931) > "One of the things Edu Inc prides itself on is that the fees parents see is the fees parents pay." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [16:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1015) > "if I take my board hat off and I put my husband of a teacher hat on, you know, I witnessed almost unfair challenges being laid before the teachers' doorsteps during this year." >, Gary Sayers, guest · [23:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1420) > "It was a real case study in crisis management" >, Gary Sayers, guest · [30:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1835) > "The parents and the students and the teachers are all custodians of that value, and they're the custodians of that spirit, and I don't think the spirit happens in a vacuum." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1914) > "Yes, sometimes the ball was fumbled, et cetera, but that's what a team's there for." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [32:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1941) > "You make a mistake, someone picks it up and goes, and we learn from it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [32:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1946) ### Claims > "I've got a financial background, but I also have quite a lot of time in with, siblings and family members in teaching posts. my wife's a teacher, so I provide a lot of independent insight to the board, usually with a financial bent." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=33) > "The biggest positive take out for me was bringing the students back onto campus for a week at a time." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Lessons from 2020 · [01:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=87) > "hybrid learning is divided into two spaces, and the first one is the physical space, which is the technology and the classroom and the working from home, et cetera, but more importantly is the behavioral space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=143) > "blended learning has been around for a long time. It's doing work in a classroom using an analog and a digital process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=190) > "So hybrid learning is using technology for communication and doing the work, being in a physical space or in a digital space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=237) > "that is blended learning because you're taking notes on a piece of paper, but it is not hybrid learning. That is online learning, because you're not engaging with another person." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [04:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=268) > "But what I can say is that a stable internet connection, 10 megs at least, is very, very important." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology requirements · [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=322) > "Every computer needs to have eight gigs of RAM in it. It needs to be 15.6 inch screens for the students if we can do that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology requirements · [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=355) > "It's much easier, I think, to hold a young child's attention when you're interacting face-to-face with another human being, as opposed to when in their mind they might just feel like they're watching a video." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Hybrid learning · [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=436) > "On many occasion, when my wife was teaching, she'd have sort of 20 out of 24 children online at any point in time, and it was a huge rigmarole for her to find the missing four children," >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Lessons from 2020 · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=489) > "especially in the grade four to grade nine space, there are a few more children that are classroom-dependent than there are in the grade ten, eleven, and twelve space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=535) > "We are preparing for it to be a rocky road like it was in 2020, and our plan is to make sure that we are ready for that," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Planning for 2021 · [11:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=667) > "online learning has very little high contact and rich interactions. It is very much student-driven and not driven by the teacher." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=723) > "If a child is classroom dependent, it may be that when we have our tech day, that they are having the tech day at school," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=773) > "What is important to us in this process is that we're not just doing technology for technology's sake," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [14:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=843) > "Why we are doing this hybrid project is so that we are not compromising our learning and the learning of our students Because of technology or distance, etc." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid learning · [14:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=877) > "our curriculum is contextualized around the values and the learning outcomes. And fundamentally, we learn to do the work by doing the work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing for the future · [15:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=901) > "to nail down a specific skill set, like you must be able to use Excel spreadsheet, for example, is very short-sighted, because Excel might not exist in the future." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing for the future · [15:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=923) > "Building raspberry pies, coding, working on robotics, using technology meaningfully to learn, to experiment, to find out about themselves," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing for the future · [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=965) > "Fortunately, there were certain savings incurred that also resulted from COVID. So printing costs were down, outings that had been planned did not take place, and we were able to divert those funds to technology, Wi-Fi, and hardware that were needed." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: COVID-19 costs · [17:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1038) > "But COVID cost Edu Inc 154,538 rand this year. And I'm being very specific so that the students listening to this and the parents listening to this can understand exactly what we were dealing with." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 costs · [18:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1085) > "We diverted 99,923 rand from printing, paper, outings, school photos, et cetera. And we diverted 54,614 rand from our development levy and capital improvements to buy the technology" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 costs · [18:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1098) > "We are proud that we've stuck to our guns in not passing those costs on to the parents." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 costs · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1150) > "Next year's budget primarily revolves around a line item of about fifty thousand rand for PPE, and between a hundred and fifty and two hundred thousand rand for the hybrid project" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1177) > "so a lot of the newer families might not be aware that we've embarked on a three-year plan to align pricing with the rest of the market. Most importantly, to align teacher salaries." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Teacher salaries · [19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1198) > "Our biggest expense is teacher salaries. I think it accounts for almost two thirds of the expenses every year and what we have to budget for." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher salaries · [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1273) > "One of the things that happens annually, which is a great benchmark, is that we take part in their SASA salary surveys." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher salaries · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1316) > "There is a rigorous termly appraisal process that they go through for their bonuses as well as their salary increases. We budget six and a half percent salary increases at Edu Inc for the teachers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teacher salaries · [22:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1357) > "because of social distancing in classes and only being able to fit a certain number of pupils into a class at a time, the same lesson had to be provided more often," >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Teacher salaries · [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1435) > "there was almost this unrealistic expectation that they immediately become tech gurus and experts on Google Classroom or whatever platform it may be." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Teacher salaries · [24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1462) > "Only two teachers are moving on to new adventures, and you've secured two amazing teachers to join the school next year." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Teacher salaries · [25:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1509) > "Businesses globally fell into one of three categories. They were either harmed in the way that hospitality and tourism was harmed, or the majority of businesses were probably disrupted." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: COVID-19 costs · [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1568) > "the plan was always not to have double-digit increases in any given year, but we maintained a single-digit percentage increase. The average across the grades is nine percent." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1649) > "Every ninety thousand rand I need in the budget is one percent increase. In order for us to execute the hybrid project, as well as budget for the PPE next year, that is between two hundred and two hundred and fifty thousand rand." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [28:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1685) > "We're not going to be passing on any additional costs to the parents. Technology will be available at school for the students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [28:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1719) > "From January, it's going to be no cell phones again. Leave your technology at home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Planning for 2021 · [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1740) > "It might be part of a marketing ploy. I think that ultimately the parents are going to be paying additional fees. It may be hidden in support invoices or extra levies" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [29:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1757) > "Edu Inc is still a relatively young business, and we do not have the benefit of a sizable kitty or endowment that's been built." >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Budget 2021 and fees · [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1776) > "It was a real case study in crisis management and to have come through in such a positive and encouraging Way, not losing any hours of teaching for the whole period" >, Gary Sayers, guest · topic: Lessons from 2020 · [30:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1835) > "But I think it's easy to make the right decisions when the framework and the values that you're operating from are in place, and primarily it's about the best interests of the children." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School values and team · [31:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988444_high.mp3#t=1882) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Start doing, stop doing and keep doing Gershom Aitchison (Headmaster) Gary Sayers (Girder Consulting | MD) Today Headmaster, Gershom Aitchison is joined by Board member, Gary Sayers, to discuss lessons learned from 2020, plans for 2021, and the budget for the year ahead. In this episode you'll hear how the curriculum is contextualised around the school's core values and educational outcomes. Connect with Gary Sayers on LinkedIn · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## NB! Very Important exam and year-end info - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-10-21-nb-very-important-exam-and-year/ - Date: 2020-10-21 (as at 2020-10-21) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Exam schedule and logistics, Matric exams in lockdown, Honours evening, Preparing for 2021, Home technology recommendations, Staff and enrolment - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988445 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short update from Edu Inc, an independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. The interviewer questions headmaster Gershom Aitchison about the end of the 2020 school year. Gershom gives the dates of the cohort rotations and the November exams for each grade, the arrival rules on exam days, the teachers' admin days, the compulsory honours evening at the Bryanston Country Club and the report collection day. He then looks ahead to 2021 and recommends that families prepare stable home internet, a suitable laptop and a UPS. He also notes new student trial weeks and the departure of two teachers. **Key ideas** - Gershom reports that the matric exams started on schedule. He praises the students' perseverance, resilience and grit in a difficult year. ([00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=56) [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=63) [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=84)) - Gershom sets out a staggered exam rotation. Grades 10 and 11 write from 11 to 27 November, and grades 4 to 9 write from 16 to 27 November. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=100) [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=120) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=184)) - Gershom says the honours evening is compulsory because he wants everyone to celebrate what students achieved in a very difficult time. ([04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=244) [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=256) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=272)) - Gershom does not expect a full return to normal in 2021. He applies the maxim of hoping for the best and planning for the worst. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=378) [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=394) [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=395)) - Gershom recommends fibre at five megs per person, a laptop with an i3 and 8GB of RAM, a fifteen-inch screen, and a UPS to cover load shedding. ([06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=376) [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=404) [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=449) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=461) [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=496)) - Gershom treats continued trial weeks by new families as a vote of confidence in the school's year. ([09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=543) [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=543)) - The interviewer frames 2021 preparation as less about emergencies and more about strategic planning. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=524)) **Lessons** - Gershom says students must be on campus thirty minutes before an exam starts and must go home to study once they finish. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=197) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=210)) - Gershom advises parents to use the exam schedule on the school website to plan drop-offs and collections. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=100) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=210)) - Gershom suggests families size their home fibre line at five megs per person because streaming video needs a lot of bandwidth. ([06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=404)) - According to Gershom, some laptops found around the house proved inadequate, so a dedicated laptop that will last several years is worth buying. ([07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=430) [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=449)) - Gershom recommends a UPS on the internet connection so that load shedding does not cost students class time. ([08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=496)) **Who it's for:** Parents and students at Edu Inc who need the November 2020 exam dates, the end-of-year arrangements and the headmaster's technology recommendations for learning from home in 2021. **Facts stated in the episode** - The interviewer says it had been 209 days since lockdown began at the time of recording. ([00:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=17)) - Cohort two (grades 8 and 9) was on campus from 19 to 23 October 2020. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=114)) - Cohort three (grades 10 and 11) was on campus from 26 to 30 October, ending the term three rotations. ([02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=120)) - Grades 4 to 9 were on campus from 2 to 13 November 2020. ([02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=137)) - 30 November to 2 December were admin days for teachers to finish marking and prepare reports. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=234)) - The compulsory honours evening was on 2 December at 6:30pm at the Bryanston Country Club. ([04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=244)) - Report collection day was 3 December, from 7 o'clock until 11 o'clock. ([04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=278)) - Edu Inc has a Microsoft school licence and can help install Windows for education. ([07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=471)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When do Edu Inc's grade 10 and 11 exams start and end in November 2020?** A: Gershom says grades 10 and 11 start their exams on 11 November and finish on 27 November. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=184)) **Q: When do grades 4 to 9 write their exams?** A: Gershom says grades 4 to 9 start on Monday 16 November and finish on 27 November. Grades 4 to 6 write on campus, and grades 8 and 9 write at home. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=100) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=184)) **Q: How early must students arrive on exam days?** A: Gershom says students must be on campus thirty minutes before the exam. For a nine o'clock exam, that means before eight thirty. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=197)) **Q: When and where is the honours evening?** A: Gershom says it is on Wednesday 2 December at 6:30pm at the Bryanston Country Club. It is compulsory so that everyone can celebrate the students' achievements. ([04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=244) [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=256)) **Q: When is report collection day?** A: According to Gershom, it is Thursday 3 December from 7 o'clock until 11 o'clock. ([04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=278)) **Q: What internet speed should families get for learning from home?** A: Gershom recommends fibre at five megs per person, for example at least a fifteen meg line for three adults. ([06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=404)) **Q: What laptop specification does the headmaster recommend for students?** A: Gershom suggests an i3 with eight gigs of RAM, a solid state or at least a half terabyte drive, and a fifteen-inch screen with a numpad. He adds that the school can help install Windows for education. ([07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=449) [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=461) [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=471)) **Q: How should families prepare for load shedding in 2021?** A: Gershom recommends a UPS for the internet connection, so that a laptop on battery can stay connected and students do not lose class time. ([08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=496)) **Q: Are any teachers leaving Edu Inc at the end of 2020?** A: Gershom says Mr. Arquette and Dr. Makings will leave at the end of the year. New teachers have been signed up, but he is not naming them yet. ([08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=508) [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=557)) ### Passage: November exam rotation schedule by grade [01:40-03:46, 415 words] Note (AI): Gives parents the full cohort and exam dates for each grade, plus the rule on arrival times and studying at home. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=100): > Yes, Gavin, you're 100% right. Everybody's getting stressed and anxious. We've got six weeks to go and exams are looming, and I've been getting a lot of correspondence from parents and kids about what the exam sessions will look like. We've got good news. We know exactly what it's going to look like. This week, cohort two, which is grade eight and grade nine, are on campus. That's the 19th to the 23rd of October. Next week, cohort three, which is grade 10 and 11, are on campus. That's the 26th to the 30th of October, and that ends the term three cohort rotations. From the 2nd of November, we start into our exam rotation schedule, and what that's going to look like for Edu Inc is grade four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine will be on campus from Monday the 2nd of November to Friday the 13th of November. In other words, the first two weeks in November. Grade four, five, and six will be on campus for the 16th to the 27th of November to write their exams. That's their exam session. The grade eights and grade nines will be at home from the 16th to the 27th of November to write their exams at home. The grade tens and elevens doing schooling from home for the first week of November, that's the second to the sixth, they will have study leave on the 9th and 10th of November, which is the Monday and the Tuesday, and they will be at home for that, and they will be on campus for their exams from the 11th to the 27th of November. So that means the grade tens and elevens start their exams on the 11th of November, and they finish on the 27th, and the grade fours to nines start their exams on Monday, the 16th of November, and they finish on the 27th of November. During the exam days, you're required to be on campus thirty minutes before the exam time. What that means is if your exams are scheduled to start at nine o'clock, you need to be on campus before eight thirty in the morning. When you have finished your exam, you need to go home and study at home. So parents, please have a look at the exam schedule that we've published on the website. It's under the resources, November 2020 final exams, and you can see and plan your days to drop off and collect your kids. ### Passage: Last week of school, honours evening and reports [03:47-05:09, 278 words] Note (AI): Sets out the admin days, the compulsory honours evening, the report collection day and the reasons behind them. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=227): > The last week of school, which is the thirtieth of November to the third of December, Is our traditional last week at school, which means the 30th of November, the 1st and 2nd of December, that's the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, will be admin days for the teachers to finish marking and preparing the reports. Wednesday, the 2nd of December at 6:30 in the evening will be the compulsory honors evening at the Bryanston Country Club. It's going to look a little different this year. Please stay tuned for the details. It is compulsory because I would like everybody to be present in some form or another celebrating the extraordinary efforts and results that a lot of students have put in in this very, very difficult time, and I think it would be great to celebrate their achievements and successes on that evening, and I think we all need something to look forward to celebrating after a year that we've just had at the moment. Thursday, the 3rd of December, will be the report collection day from 7 o'clock until 11 o'clock as usual. We'll use the online booking system like we did for the middle of the year for parents who want to zoom in and chat or who want to be on campus to talk to the teachers. That's what our exam session for November looks like. I think it's very important that everybody prepares best they can. They have a lot of time to study and prepare. We know that going into the exam session in the first week of November is going to be revision and getting their heads right about what is coming. ### Passage: Home internet, laptop and UPS advice for 2021 [06:16-08:27, 414 words] Note (AI): Concrete specifications for bandwidth, laptops and backup power that families can act on before 2021. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=376): > Looking in the crystal ball next year, I would love to be able to say that everybody's on campus, we're back to normal, and it looks and feels like what it was in January and February this year. But I think that might be wishful thinking, looking at what the trends around the world are right now. So I think the, the maxim of hoping for the best and planning for the worst might be appropriate right now. I'd like parents to start looking at a stable internet connection for home. The ideal internet connection, the most stable, is obviously fiber, and I would recommend five megs per person. So if there are three adults in the house using the internet, that you have a fifteen meg line at least. If there are five, that you have a twenty-five meg line. And that's primarily because the streaming, the video online, et cetera, requires a lot of bandwidth for it to be stable. The second thing is Edu Inc has lent and loaned a lot of its PCs out to students, and a lot of students picked up PCs that were lying around the house or laptops that were lying around the house, and some of them have been found wanting. So I think looking at a laptop for next year would be a great addition for the students. It's something they will use for a few years, and my recommendation is that you look for something like an i3 with eight gigs of RAM and a solid state or at least a half terabyte hard drive. I would recommend a fifteen-inch screen so that there's a numpad on the computer and that the screen is big enough for the kids to be able to see what's going on in that space. Edu Inc has a Microsoft school license, so if you have any challenges putting, Windows for education on it, we will be able to assist with that if we need to. And then lastly, which is not COVID related, but might, be complicated by COVID is ESKOM's inability to provide electricity stably to the country and every now and again dropping the ball when it comes to load shedding and things like that. And I would recommend a UPS for your internet connection so that if you have a laptop, you can run on battery for a few hours and still connect to a stable internet connection and that you're not losing any class time. ### Passage: Trial weeks, staff changes and the school's position [08:28-10:01, 337 words] Note (AI): Covers new student trial weeks, departing teachers and the headmaster's view of how the school came through 2020. Unidentified speaker, host [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=508): > So in many respects, it's down to the mundane when 2021 starts. It's predictable. We know we're going to have some uncertainty. We know we're going to have electricity issues next winter. Also, anticipating having antibody tests later this week that everybody can take. We're expecting vaccines to be available soon. So it's a little different, this kind of preparation. It's less emergency and more strategic and planning. There's also changes on campus and with teachers. What can you tell us about that? Gershom Aitchison, host [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=535): > Students will have seen that there's been a lot of trial weeks in the last couple of weeks, and we've still got a couple more weeks of trial weeks coming up, and that's very, very good for Edu Inc. I think it's a vote of confidence for the great job that we've done this year, that parents in these difficult times are still looking at coming on board with us. I'm very excited about some of the conversations I've been having with the new students. You're quite right. I mentioned earlier in the term that Mr. Arquette and Dr. Makings will be leaving us at the end of this year, and I'm very excited with the teachers that we have signed up for next year, but I'm not going to let the cat out of the bag just yet. Let's leave some of that anticipation for the new year. It's a little strange to be operations as usual in these uncertain times. I often count our blessings, the fact that Edu Inc is as solid as it is, and that we have such a supportive parent base and student base, and I'm very happy to be in the position we're right now, being able to deliver on the promises we made about getting through the curriculum and having students ready to write their exams at the end of this year. I think it's testament To the family that Edu Inc is, and how well everybody has worked together to make sure that we get to this point. ### Quotes > "Just keep your head down one step at a time, breathing, make sure we get it done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=84) > "I think we all need something to look forward to celebrating after a year that we've just had at the moment." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=272) > "It's been a year of exceptions and tolerance." >, Unidentified speaker, host · [05:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=324) > "If they knew what they were in for at the beginning of this year, they would have hung up their hats and said, okay, I'm not in for this." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=357) > "the maxim of hoping for the best and planning for the worst" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=395) > "I think it's a vote of confidence for the great job that we've done this year," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=543) > "It's a little strange to be operations as usual in these uncertain times." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=571) > "I think it's testament To the family that Edu Inc is, and how well everybody has worked together to make sure that we get to this point." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=594) ### Claims > "2020 is gonna be memorable for so many reasons, and it's 209 days since we first got locked down." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Matric exams in lockdown · [00:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=17) > "I'm very pleased to say that they started the Matrix exams on Monday this week, and they have their second exam today," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exams in lockdown · [00:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=56) > "I really want to applaud the Matrix for the perseverance and the resilience and the grit they've displayed this year to make this happen." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exams in lockdown · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=63) > "This week, cohort two, which is grade eight and grade nine, are on campus. That's the 19th to the 23rd of October." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=114) > "Next week, cohort three, which is grade 10 and 11, are on campus. That's the 26th to the 30th of October, and that ends the term three cohort rotations." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=120) > "grade four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine will be on campus from Monday the 2nd of November to Friday the 13th of November." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=137) > "So that means the grade tens and elevens start their exams on the 11th of November, and they finish on the 27th, and the grade fours to nines start their exams on Monday, the 16th of November, and they finish on the 27th of November." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=184) > "During the exam days, you're required to be on campus thirty minutes before the exam time. What that means is if your exams are scheduled to start at nine o'clock, you need to be on campus before eight thirty in the morning." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=197) > "When you have finished your exam, you need to go home and study at home. So parents, please have a look at the exam schedule that we've published on the website." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=210) > "the 30th of November, the 1st and 2nd of December, that's the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, will be admin days for the teachers to finish marking and preparing the reports." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=234) > "Wednesday, the 2nd of December at 6:30 in the evening will be the compulsory honors evening at the Bryanston Country Club." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Honours evening · [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=244) > "It is compulsory because I would like everybody to be present in some form or another celebrating the extraordinary efforts and results that a lot of students have put in in this very, very difficult time," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Honours evening · [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=256) > "Thursday, the 3rd of December, will be the report collection day from 7 o'clock until 11 o'clock as usual." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=278) > "We know that going into the exam session in the first week of November is going to be revision and getting their heads right about what is coming." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam schedule and logistics · [05:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=302) > "It's amazing that so many schools are not operating functionally, and yet here we are having matrix in classroom on schedule." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Matric exams in lockdown · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=312) > "I would just like to shout out to the teachers who have worked tirelessly to make sure that this happens." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staff and enrolment · [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=351) > "I would love to be able to say that everybody's on campus, we're back to normal, and it looks and feels like what it was in January and February this year. But I think that might be wishful thinking, looking at what the trends around the world are right now." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing for 2021 · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=378) > "So I think the, the maxim of hoping for the best and planning for the worst might be appropriate right now." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing for 2021 · [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=394) > "The ideal internet connection, the most stable, is obviously fiber, and I would recommend five megs per person. So if there are three adults in the house using the internet, that you have a fifteen meg line at least." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=404) > "Edu Inc has lent and loaned a lot of its PCs out to students, and a lot of students picked up PCs that were lying around the house or laptops that were lying around the house, and some of them have been found wanting." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=430) > "my recommendation is that you look for something like an i3 with eight gigs of RAM and a solid state or at least a half terabyte hard drive." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=449) > "I would recommend a fifteen-inch screen so that there's a numpad on the computer and that the screen is big enough for the kids to be able to see what's going on in that space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=461) > "Edu Inc has a Microsoft school license, so if you have any challenges putting, Windows for education on it, we will be able to assist with that if we need to." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=471) > "I would recommend a UPS for your internet connection so that if you have a laptop, you can run on battery for a few hours and still connect to a stable internet connection and that you're not losing any class time." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Home technology recommendations · [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=496) > "So it's a little different, this kind of preparation. It's less emergency and more strategic and planning." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Preparing for 2021 · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=524) > "I think it's a vote of confidence for the great job that we've done this year, that parents in these difficult times are still looking at coming on board with us." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staff and enrolment · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=543) > "I mentioned earlier in the term that Mr. Arquette and Dr. Makings will be leaving us at the end of this year," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staff and enrolment · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=557) > "I'm very happy to be in the position we're right now, being able to deliver on the promises we made about getting through the curriculum and having students ready to write their exams at the end of this year." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exams in lockdown · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988445_high.mp3#t=584) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) And some heads-ups for 2021 Headmaster Gershom Aitchison With 209 days of lock-down under the belt, and 6 weeks to go until our Honours Evening, this is a must-listen episode for all the details. Handy tips - grab a pen and paper! Exam Schedule and other resources · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Matric Valediction and Dance (and network updates) - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-09-28-matric-valediction-and-dance-and-network/ - Date: 2020-09-28 (as at 2020-09-28) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Matric valediction ceremony, Matric dinner dance, COVID campus protocols, Hybrid versus blended learning, School network upgrades, Farewell to class of 2020 - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988446 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Headmaster Gershom Aitchison gives an update to the Edu Inc community on the last week of school for the class of 2020. Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB. He covers the arrangements for a COVID-adjusted valediction ceremony and a matric dinner dance that was postponed twice. He explains why lockdown level one changes little for schools and gives the plan for returning cohorts to campus. He distinguishes hybrid learning from blended learning and details the network upgrades being made to support hybrid learning. He also points listeners to Jax's article in the Independent Education magazine. **Key ideas** - Gershom says the valediction can go ahead in COVID times but with limits: only matric parents attend, space is the main constraint, and the honor guard will be less physical. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=32) [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=44) [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=61)) - Gershom argues level one differs little from level three for schools because schools are seen as high-risk transmission areas. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=162) [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=173) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=185)) - According to Gershom, campus capacity is the binding constraint: the school runs at about sixty percent, and full return depends on relaxed protocols. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=162) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=194) [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=203)) - Gershom gives a phased return plan: cohorts one and four first, then cohort two, with cohort three last. ([03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=223) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=235)) - Gershom distinguishes blended learning (analog and digital together in class) from hybrid learning (whether the student or teacher is in the classroom), which the school is experimenting with. ([05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=312) [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=321) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=335) [05:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=343)) - Gershom describes upgrading the network for hybrid learning: a 10 gig fibre line between campuses, new wireless access points, and a mechanical firewall, alongside G Suite. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=398) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=407)) - Gershom frames the matric farewell as the end of a legacy, noting pupils who have been at the school almost since its inception. ([07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=429) [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=440) [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=448)) **Lessons** - Gershom treats safety of teachers and students as the top priority and is watching for a possible second wave. ([04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=265) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=265)) - Gershom suggests live streaming a restricted ceremony both widens access and leaves a recording of the event. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=19) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=97) [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=152)) - Gershom's view is that supporting hybrid learning requires reliable network capacity for many devices, not just software. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=407)) - Gershom credits the patience of matrics and parents for letting the dinner dance happen on its third scheduled date. ([01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=119) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=138)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc parents and pupils, especially matric families, who want the valediction and dinner dance logistics. Also educators interested in how an independent school managed COVID capacity limits and the network needs of hybrid learning. **Facts stated in the episode** - The valediction ceremony was set to start at eight thirty and finish by nine forty five on Friday. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=97)) - The matric dinner dance was set for the Bryanston Country Club on Saturday the third, after being postponed twice. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=124) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=138)) - The school was running at about sixty percent campus capacity. ([03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=203)) - The fibre line between the two campuses was being upgraded to a 10 gig line. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368)) - The new wireless access points have four or six radios at five gigahertz. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368)) - Jax's three-page COVID article appeared in the spring edition of the Independent Education magazine. ([07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=458) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=472)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Who can attend the Edu Inc 2020 matric valediction?** A: Gershom says only matric parents can attend because space is the biggest challenge. Grades eight and nine will be on campus and grades ten and eleven are asked to attend. Cohort four should stay home unless they are in grades eight to eleven. ([00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=44) [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=86)) **Q: What time is the valediction and can I watch it online?** A: Gershom says the ceremony starts at eight thirty and should finish by nine forty five. S0 says the streaming link will be on the public calendar on the website. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=97) [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=152)) **Q: Where is the matric dinner dance being held?** A: Gershom says it is at the Bryanston Country Club on Saturday the third in the evening, after two postponements. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=124) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=138)) **Q: Does lockdown level one mean everyone returns to school?** A: No. Gershom says level one differs little from level three for schools, which are high-risk transmission areas. The school lacks space to seat everyone while social distancing and sits at about sixty percent capacity. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=162) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=194) [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=203)) **Q: In what order will cohorts come back to campus full-time?** A: Gershom says cohorts one and four would come on campus permanently first, with two and three rotating. Next would be cohorts one, two and four, with cohort three last. The timing depends on external variables. ([03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=223) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=235)) **Q: What is the difference between hybrid learning and blended learning?** A: Gershom says blended learning uses technology and books together in class, which the school already does. Hybrid learning concerns whether the student or teacher is in the classroom or not, and the school is experimenting with it. ([05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=321) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=335) [05:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=343)) **Q: What network upgrades is Edu Inc making?** A: Gershom lists a 10 gig fibre line between the two campuses, wireless access points with four or six radios at five gigahertz, and a mechanical firewall. G Suite remains the framework for software and storage. ([06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=398) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=407)) **Q: Where can I read Jax's COVID article?** A: Gershom says it was published in the spring edition of the Independent Education magazine. It is on the school website's resource section under articles. ([07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=458) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=472)) ### Passage: Valediction plans and the thrice-scheduled dinner dance [00:19-02:31, 453 words] Note (AI): Sets out the COVID-adjusted valediction arrangements, including attendance, timing and live stream, and the dinner dance that went ahead after two postponements. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=19): > It's been three weeks since we last had a chat, and today I just wanted to touch sides on a few things that are happening at school, primarily this being the last week of school for our matrix, the class of 2020. And to kick it off, we are going to have a valediction ceremony on Friday, and we're very, very fortunate that we can actually have this in COVID times, as it were, albeit a little different from what we're used to experiencing. The first thing is that Mrs. Aitchison has communicated that only the parents of the matrix can attend the valediction. Our biggest challenge with the valediction is space. And of course, there's going to be no touching and a very close observance of social distancing during this time. The honor guard, where the Matrix walk down and say goodbye to everyone and hug and shake hands and everything, is going to not look as physical as that, although there will be an honor guard, and I'm sure tears will be flowing at that point as well. The grade eights and nines are going to be on campus and will be attending the valediction, and we'd really like the grade tens and elevens to join us on the Friday and attend school that day so that they can also say goodbye to the Matrix. I'm gonna ask that cohort four stay at home on Friday and do not come to school unless they are in grade eight, nine, ten, or eleven, just because the campus is going to be at capacity at this point. The ceremony will start sharply at eight thirty, and we aim to have it completed by nine forty five, so that classes can resume as normal. After that, we plan on live streaming this so that everybody who's not able to attend can watch this. It also means that we have a nice recording of the process. Then something else that pertains to the matrix, something that I never thought that we would see happening, and I'm sure that many matrix have not had the opportunity to create this memory for themselves, is that we are having our matrix dinner and dance at the Bryanston Country Club on Saturday the third in the evening. I'm very, very pleased that our matrix have been patient and Supportive, and the parents have been very supportive of this process as we've actually postponed this twice already, and this is the third date put down on the calendar, and I'm very, very pleased that we are actually going to be able to do this and create this memory, something, as I mentioned, that very few metrics have actually done so. ### Passage: Level one, campus capacity and cohort return plan [02:42-04:07, 239 words] Note (AI): Explains why lockdown level one changed little for schools and sets out the phased order in which cohorts would return to campus. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=162): > there's not much difference between level one and level three for schools in terms of safety protocol. And the reason for this is that schools are identified as high-risk transmission areas, and it's this weird twilight zone of reality where everything seems normal, we're getting on with our lives again, we're starting to get the economy moving, and everyone's back at work mostly, and then COVID rears its ugly head, and we can't all be back at school. And there are a couple of reasons why not everybody is back on campus at this point, and the main one is very simply that Edu Inc doesn't have the space to accommodate everybody while observing the social distances in the classroom. Currently, we are sitting at about sixty percent capacity, with the matrix cohort four and either cohort one, two, or three on campus at any point, and with the teachers. And right now, I don't see that it's going to change anytime soon unless they relax the safety protocols or unless a vaccination is found. Depending on the relaxation of regulations and safety protocols, the plan is to bring cohort one and cohort four onto the campus permanently, with cohort two and cohort three rotating. Once it relaxes a bit further, the plan is to have cohort one, cohort two, and cohort four permanently on campus, with cohort three being the last cohort to be rotated into full-time on school. ### Passage: Hybrid versus blended learning and network upgrades [05:12-06:58, 336 words] Note (AI): The headmaster defines hybrid and blended learning and describes the specific infrastructure changes: fibre, access points, G Suite and firewall. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=312): > I'm very glad that you used the word hybrid learning, and I just want to differentiate something quickly. We've spoken, and a lot of schools are talking about blended learning. Blended learning is when you use technology and books in the classroom at the same time. In other words, an analog process and a digital process. We do that anyway. There is digital and analog process in the class, and blended learning is part of how Edu Inc engages with the educational process. But hybrid learning is, are you in the classroom or not in the classroom? Is the student in the classroom or not in the classroom? Is the teacher in the classroom or not in the classroom? So hybrid learning is something that we are experimenting with. It's organic process. We have a few ideas on what that looks like, and we're slowly putting those things into place. And one of them is upgrading the accessibility and the framework and backbone of our internet at school, the network capabilities. So what we are doing, on Wednesday, having had some professionals come in, is that we are upgrading the fiber line between the two campuses to a 10 gig line. We are putting in wireless access points that have four or six radios at five gigahertz so that more devices can reliably connect to those hotspots. We are going to make sure that there is a lot more stability in the network that we have in place to cope with hybrid learning, the devices that the kids are using, and the demand we're busy putting on our network at present. I'm still very comfortable that G Suite, which is a Google product, provides the framework for our software, our storage, and it's very secure. And one of the things that we are also going to be putting in an upgrade because of so many devices accessing the network is a mechanical firewall, so that a lot of our devices that are connected are protected from outside. ### Passage: Reflecting on long-serving matrics and Jax's article [07:06-08:17, 234 words] Note (AI): Personal reflection on pupils who were at the school almost from its inception, plus where to find the published COVID article. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=426): > one of the things that I'm reflecting on at the moment is that there are a couple of the matrics that will be leaving on Friday, who I think are going to be ringing the bell five or six times. They've been at Edu Inc for a very, very long time, almost since the inception of the school. For that kind of legacy to be passing through the school is fantastic, and I'm going to be very sad to see them go, but I know that Edu Inc has left its mark on them, but I'll speak more about that at the valediction on Friday. Something else that I'd just like to mention to everybody is that Jax wrote a COVID article for the Independent Education magazine, and it's been published in the latest edition, the spring edition, and I've put it on the resource section under articles on the website. It's a three-page article that she wrote at the beginning of COVID, and it documents well how we started out and what our aim was and where we're going at this point. Other than that, I'd like to invite everybody who's able to, watch the live stream of our valediction. It's a very emotional ceremony, and you get to hear from the Matrix about their experience and their hopes for their future as we say goodbye to them. Hope to see you there on Friday. ### Quotes > "I'm sure that many matrix have not had the opportunity to create this memory for themselves," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=119) > "it's this weird twilight zone of reality where everything seems normal, we're getting on with our lives again," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=173) > "and then COVID rears its ugly head, and we can't all be back at school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=185) > "the safety of our teachers and our students is our biggest priority," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=265) > "The vibe when the students are there is great." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=292) > "hybrid learning is, are you in the classroom or not in the classroom?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=335) > "For that kind of legacy to be passing through the school is fantastic, and I'm going to be very sad to see them go," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=440) > "I know that Edu Inc has left its mark on them," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=448) ### Claims > "we are going to have a valediction ceremony on Friday, and we're very, very fortunate that we can actually have this in COVID times, as it were, albeit a little different from what we're used to experiencing." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=32) > "Mrs. Aitchison has communicated that only the parents of the matrix can attend the valediction. Our biggest challenge with the valediction is space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=44) > "The honor guard, where the Matrix walk down and say goodbye to everyone and hug and shake hands and everything, is going to not look as physical as that, although there will be an honor guard," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=61) > "I'm gonna ask that cohort four stay at home on Friday and do not come to school unless they are in grade eight, nine, ten, or eleven, just because the campus is going to be at capacity at this point." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=86) > "The ceremony will start sharply at eight thirty, and we aim to have it completed by nine forty five, so that classes can resume as normal." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=97) > "we are having our matrix dinner and dance at the Bryanston Country Club on Saturday the third in the evening." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric dinner dance · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=124) > "we've actually postponed this twice already, and this is the third date put down on the calendar, and I'm very, very pleased that we are actually going to be able to do this and create this memory," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric dinner dance · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=138) > "The link for the streaming of the validation will be on the public calendar on the website." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=152) > "there's not much difference between level one and level three for schools in terms of safety protocol. And the reason for this is that schools are identified as high-risk transmission areas," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=162) > "the main one is very simply that Edu Inc doesn't have the space to accommodate everybody while observing the social distances in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=194) > "Currently, we are sitting at about sixty percent capacity, with the matrix cohort four and either cohort one, two, or three on campus at any point, and with the teachers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=203) > "Depending on the relaxation of regulations and safety protocols, the plan is to bring cohort one and cohort four onto the campus permanently, with cohort two and cohort three rotating." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=223) > "Once it relaxes a bit further, the plan is to have cohort one, cohort two, and cohort four permanently on campus, with cohort three being the last cohort to be rotated into full-time on school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=235) > "the safety of our teachers and our students is our biggest priority, and one of the things that we have got our eye on is that there may be a resurgence of the COVID virus in a second wave" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=265) > "it's still very, very good to have face-to-face contact with our students as the soul of the school is back again." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=299) > "Blended learning is when you use technology and books in the classroom at the same time. In other words, an analog process and a digital process. We do that anyway." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid versus blended learning · [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=321) > "But hybrid learning is, are you in the classroom or not in the classroom? Is the student in the classroom or not in the classroom? Is the teacher in the classroom or not in the classroom?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid versus blended learning · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=335) > "So hybrid learning is something that we are experimenting with. It's organic process. We have a few ideas on what that looks like, and we're slowly putting those things into place." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Hybrid versus blended learning · [05:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=343) > "we are upgrading the fiber line between the two campuses to a 10 gig line. We are putting in wireless access points that have four or six radios at five gigahertz so that more devices can reliably connect to those hotspots." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School network upgrades · [06:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=368) > "I'm still very comfortable that G Suite, which is a Google product, provides the framework for our software, our storage, and it's very secure." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School network upgrades · [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=398) > "we are also going to be putting in an upgrade because of so many devices accessing the network is a mechanical firewall, so that a lot of our devices that are connected are protected from outside." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School network upgrades · [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=407) > "there are a couple of the matrics that will be leaving on Friday, who I think are going to be ringing the bell five or six times. They've been at Edu Inc for a very, very long time, almost since the inception of the school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Farewell to class of 2020 · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=429) > "Jax wrote a COVID article for the Independent Education magazine, and it's been published in the latest edition, the spring edition, and I've put it on the resource section under articles on the website." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=458) > "It's a three-page article that she wrote at the beginning of COVID, and it documents well how we started out and what our aim was and where we're going at this point." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID campus protocols · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=472) > "It's a very emotional ceremony, and you get to hear from the Matrix about their experience and their hopes for their future as we say goodbye to them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric valediction ceremony · [08:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988446_high.mp3#t=487) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) The end of an era for the class of 2020 Headmaster Gershom Aitchison Our Matric Valediction is upon us, as if their Dinner Dance. Also, some news on the Network upgrades and an article in the Independent Schools' magazine. Watch Matric Valediction video · Read Jax's article here · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Back to School - 2020 Term 3 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-08-26-back-to-school-2020-term-3/ - Date: 2020-08-26 (as at 2020-08-26) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Term three return, Staggered cohorts, COVID safety protocols, Blended learning, Uniform and dress code, Meaningful school year - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988447 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this back-to-school episode, Headmaster Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison, questioned by S0, explain how Edu Inc will run term three of 2020. They describe a return to campus in four staggered cohorts attending a week at a time, and extensive health-department safety procedures that Jax says must be followed to keep the campus open. Gershom explains a blended learning rollout for pupils in quarantine. They cover civvies with the dress code still in force and the suspension of clubs and extramurals. Both restate the aim that pupils have a meaningful school year. **Key ideas** - Jax explains that pupils return on campus in four staggered cohorts by grade, with cohorts brought back for a week at a time to make campus time valuable and meaningful. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=82) [01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=109) [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=156)) - Jax argues that the ultimate objective is keeping the campus open, which depends on safety procedures being followed to the letter, especially for matrics starting prelims and finals. ([03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=188) [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=222) [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=222) [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=233)) - Gershom reports that the protocols used for the previous seven weeks produced no COVID instances or scares, so onerous as they are, they work. ([04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=258) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=270)) - Gershom defines blended learning in the COVID context as classroom technology that gives absent pupils electronic access, so quarantined but healthy children can keep up. ([04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=288) [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=294) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=313)) - Gershom stresses that blended learning is experimental, requires patience, and is not an excuse to stay out of class. ([05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=333) [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348) [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348)) - Jax says uniforms are not required for the rest of the year, but hair, jewellery and neatness rules still apply, and items like beanies and scarves are banned. ([05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=356) [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=374) [06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=379) [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=383) [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=403)) - Gershom says the staff remain committed, since 16 March, to pupils having a meaningful year and being promoted if they have done the work. ([08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=493) [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=527) [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=543)) **Lessons** - Jax asks parents to read the safety email with their children, framing compliance as social responsibility rather than just rules. ([03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=210)) - Jax argues that falling case numbers and lower lockdown levels should not lower vigilance on campus. ([08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=493) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=508) [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=508)) - Gershom advises parents, pupils and teachers to be patient while blended learning is tried out experimentally. ([05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=333)) - Both heads expect pupils in civvies to stay neat and tidy and to represent the school well. ([06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=383) [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=441)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc parents and pupils preparing for term three of 2020 who need to know which days their children are on campus, what safety rules apply, how blended learning will work, and what the dress code and extramural arrangements are. **Facts stated in the episode** - Staff return Monday 31 August 2020; children return 1 September. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72)) - Pupils are split into four cohorts, the fourth being high-risk online children. ([01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=109)) - Despite the move to level two, schools had received no direction on scaling down safety protocols. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=95)) - Over seven weeks of protocols, the school had no COVID instances or scares, according to Gershom. ([04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=258)) - Gershom gives fourteen days of quarantine as the example case for blended learning. ([05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=313)) - The school's commitment to a meaningful school year began on 16 March. ([09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=543)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When did Edu Inc staff and pupils go back for term three in 2020?** A: S0 states that staff and teachers return on Monday 31 August and children return on 1 September. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72)) **Q: How are Edu Inc pupils split up for returning to campus?** A: Jax says there are four cohorts: grades 4 to 7, grades 8 to 9, grades 10 and 11, and a fourth of high-risk online pupils. Cohorts come back for a week at a time. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72) [01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=109) [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=156)) **Q: Who is on campus in the first week of term three?** A: Gershom says cohort one, grades four to seven, is on campus from Tuesday morning, along with cohort four, the high-risk online learners, who join every day. S0 adds the other grades stay online as in term two. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=173) [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=580)) **Q: Why does Edu Inc insist on strict COVID safety procedures?** A: Jax says the aim is to keep the campus open; not following procedures endangers teachers and children and threatens the campus staying open for matrics writing prelims and finals. Gershom says seven weeks of protocols produced no cases or scares. ([03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=188) [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=222) [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=233) [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=258)) **Q: What does blended learning mean during COVID?** A: Gershom says it means using classroom technology that gives electronic access to people not in the classroom alongside traditional teaching, so a quarantined pupil who is not ill can keep up with work. ([04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=294) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=313)) **Q: Can pupils stay home and just use blended learning instead?** A: No. Gershom says it is not an excuse not to be in class; it exists to manage circumstances beyond the school's control. ([05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348) [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348)) **Q: Do Edu Inc pupils have to wear uniform in term three?** A: Jax says uniforms will not be insisted on for the rest of the year, but the hair and jewellery policies still apply, pupils must be neat and tidy, and beanies, scarves and bandanas are not allowed. ([06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=374) [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=383) [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=403)) **Q: Are clubs and extramurals running at Edu Inc in term three?** A: Gershom says there are no extramurals or clubs at the moment, including archery and chess club, and they will resume at a later stage. ([08:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=482)) ### Passage: How the four term-three cohorts will work [01:12-03:08, 356 words] Note (AI): Sets out the dates, the four cohorts by grade, the choice of week-long campus blocks and the starting timetable parents need to plan around. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72): > Staff and teachers are back at school on Monday the 31st of August. Children return on the 1st of September. What does returning to school look like in term three of 2020? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=82): > Back to school in term three is going to be back on campus, but in staggered cohorts. As we've mentioned in the past, we alluded to this, we're definitely going to be implementing the cohorts now. Unfortunately, despite dropping down to level two, as schools, we haven't yet received any kind of direction, in terms of scaling down the safety precautions and protocols. and what that looks like is, is really pretty simple. We've split the children into four cohorts. Cohort one is grade four to seven, cohort two is grade eight to nine, cohort three is grade ten and eleven, and cohort four is really our high-risk online children, and that's children who have had major technical challenges at home and a, and a multitude of other things. tomorrow the parents will be sent an email that gives a lot more detail on those cohorts, and they'll see their children's names in that email, so they know exactly which cohorts their child falls into. How we're going to be doing it is, and this is one of the things we did give quite a lot of thought to, should we bring children back two days a week, three days a week, what is in their best interest in the, in that regard? And what we decided was to make it valuable and meaningful for the, for the children, we should really be bringing the cohorts back for a week at a time. So in that email that the parents receive tomorrow, they will see which weeks of the term their child will be on campus. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=172): > So what that looks like is we'll be starting term three with the same timetable as we ended with last term, which means cohort number one, grade four, five, six, and seven will be on campus on Tuesday morning, as well as cohort number four, which is the high-risk online learners who will be joining us every day. ### Passage: Why safety protocols must be followed to the letter [03:08-04:47, 325 words] Note (AI): Explains the link between following health-department procedures, keeping the campus open for matrics, and the seven-week record without COVID cases. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=188): > So before the phones ring and go crazy, what other information will be in tomorrow's mail? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=193): > Well, the other information that parents really need to have at this point is really important information is all the safety precautions and procedures that need to be followed for the children to be on campus. And it's pretty extensive. It is a long, email. It's a long list of things that people need to go through, and I really, really encourage parents to take the time to read that email with their children, because more than anything else, what we're, what we're really talking about at this point is, is a bit of social responsibility. Our ultimate objective right now is to keep the campus open. We need to make sure that these procedures are followed to the letter. They are there from the health department for a very, very good reason. As soon as they aren't followed, we are jeopardizing the health of teachers and other children, and ultimately, we're jeopardizing their ability to keep the campus open, which obviously really affects the matrics who are starting their prelims and finals now. So I really, again, to reiterate, please, parents, take time to read that email with your children so that they are fully With what is expected of them on campus and that everyone is in the picture. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=258): > These protocols and processes we've been using for the last seven weeks, it's done very, very well, and we haven't had any instances of COVID or any scares, and it's been very effective. So they may be quite onerous, but they are very, very effective. And I think, if anything, they might look a little over the top, but they do work. So really, to echo what Jax is saying, let's just follow them to the letter, please, because it does help with everybody's safety. It keeps the school open, which is ultimately what we want to do. ### Passage: What blended learning means at Edu Inc [04:48-05:55, 228 words] Note (AI): Defines blended learning in the COVID context, gives the quarantine rationale, and sets expectations that the rollout is experimental and not a substitute for attendance. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=288): > The phrase we hear people using at other schools is blended learning. What does that mean, and how is Edu Inc dealing with term three? Gershom Aitchison, host [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=294): > Blended learning traditionally meant using technology in the classroom as well as using pen and paper. But in the context of COVID and learning from home, It means using technology in the classroom that gives access to people who are not in the classroom electronically, as well as using the traditional classroom method. A lot of schools are exploring this at the moment, primarily because if a child is in quarantine, for example, for fourteen days but is not ill, that they're still able to access the work that needs to be done, and they can still keep up with their work. So we've formulated a plan on rolling out some blended learning in the classrooms. It's not very easy, and it's going to be quite experimental to start with, so I would encourage parents, kids, and, and teachers to be patient while we're doing it, but we have a very fair idea of where we're going to go with it, and I think it's going to be quite effective by the time we get to the end of it. It's not an excuse not to be in class. It's there so that we can manage circumstances and situations that are beyond our control. ### Passage: Civvies allowed, but the dress code still applies [05:56-07:26, 317 words] Note (AI): Clarifies which uniform rules still apply, which items are banned for hygiene reasons, and the expectation of neatness on campus. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=356): > Something that appears to have brought joy to many children is not wearing school uniforms and not having to shave because faces are hidden behind masks. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=363): > Well, I think there are going to be a few disappointed children as they come back to campus because a few of the boys will have to have haircuts for the first time since March, and some of that pink hair will have to disappear. As we mentioned previously, we are not going to insist on school uniforms for the remainder of the year, but wearing civvies does not mean we're throwing the entire uniform code of conduct out the window. So the children will still have to adhere to the hair policy, the jewelry policy, everything else still applies, and we do expect them to be neat and tidy. We don't want pajamas and, and general scruffiness as they come onto campus. We just want to, to make things as easy as possible for the parents when it comes to the regulations on keeping the clothing clean. Kids are going to see things in tomorrow's email like they may not be wearing beanies, scarves, bandanas, savannas, et cetera. In other words, all the things that kids are touching and then possibly dropping and leaving behind. So all of those little things that they were using to hide the pink hair, long hair, et cetera, et cetera, I'm afraid those are out of the window. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=423): > Yes, some of the boys, as you mentioned, Gavin, who have grown full beards, are going to have to, apply razor blades to their faces again, as we will all have to climb out of our caves and become sociable again, no more troglodytes, and, and, and looking less furry, as it were. The bottom line is, even though we're not wearing uniform, that we still neat and tidy, and we represent our school well enough. ### Passage: Staying vigilant and committed to a meaningful year [08:13-09:30, 264 words] Note (AI): Connects ongoing vigilance about second waves with the school's commitment since 16 March that pupils have a meaningful year and are promoted. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=493): > So it's sounding a little bit more like we're approaching some semblance of normality, but we have heard stories of second waves of infection and lockdowns in other countries. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=502): > That is exactly why we need to maintain our vigilance as we go back to campus. The numbers may be coming down, our lockdown levels may be dropping, but that doesn't mean that our vigilance should drop too. We need to be careful. We don't want any second waves. We don't want to be putting anybody into danger. So let's just do what we need to do and have some fun while we do. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=524): > As a school and as a, and as a staff, we are still dedicated to our ultimate goal, which we started out with, and that is that our students have a meaningful school year. So if they've done the work and they're prepared for it, that they'll be promoted to the next grade next year, and that our assessments in whatever form are meaningful so that we can do that. And I think the plan for term three Extends on that commitment that we started, on the 16th of March and that we saw through last term, and it's something that we will have to play by ear as we go into the new term. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=556): > I am really, really looking forward to seeing everybody back on campus, as well as we've done online. It's just not the same as having those kids in class at school. They really are the soul of the whole place. Something to really look forward to. ### Quotes > "Our ultimate objective right now is to keep the campus open." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=222) > "So they may be quite onerous, but they are very, very effective." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=270) > "It's not an excuse not to be in class." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348) > "wearing civvies does not mean we're throwing the entire uniform code of conduct out the window." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=379) > "as we will all have to climb out of our caves and become sociable again, no more troglodytes," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=431) > "That would be a hard no." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=460) > "The numbers may be coming down, our lockdown levels may be dropping, but that doesn't mean that our vigilance should drop too." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=508) > "So let's just do what we need to do and have some fun while we do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [08:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=520) > "It's just not the same as having those kids in class at school. They really are the soul of the whole place." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=563) ### Claims > "Most of our, our headspace has been dedicated to figuring out what term three looks like. What I'm very pleased to see is that the COVID numbers are coming down." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term three return · [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=38) > "Staff and teachers are back at school on Monday the 31st of August. Children return on the 1st of September." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: Term three return · [01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=72) > "Back to school in term three is going to be back on campus, but in staggered cohorts." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staggered cohorts · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=82) > "Unfortunately, despite dropping down to level two, as schools, we haven't yet received any kind of direction, in terms of scaling down the safety precautions and protocols." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=95) > "We've split the children into four cohorts. Cohort one is grade four to seven, cohort two is grade eight to nine, cohort three is grade ten and eleven, and cohort four is really our high-risk online children," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staggered cohorts · [01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=109) > "And what we decided was to make it valuable and meaningful for the, for the children, we should really be bringing the cohorts back for a week at a time." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Staggered cohorts · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=156) > "we'll be starting term three with the same timetable as we ended with last term, which means cohort number one, grade four, five, six, and seven will be on campus on Tuesday morning," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Staggered cohorts · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=173) > "I really, really encourage parents to take the time to read that email with their children, because more than anything else, what we're, what we're really talking about at this point is, is a bit of social responsibility." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=210) > "Our ultimate objective right now is to keep the campus open. We need to make sure that these procedures are followed to the letter." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=222) > "As soon as they aren't followed, we are jeopardizing the health of teachers and other children, and ultimately, we're jeopardizing their ability to keep the campus open, which obviously really affects the matrics who are starting their prelims and finals now." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=233) > "These protocols and processes we've been using for the last seven weeks, it's done very, very well, and we haven't had any instances of COVID or any scares, and it's been very effective." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=258) > "Blended learning traditionally meant using technology in the classroom as well as using pen and paper. But in the context of COVID and learning from home, It means using technology in the classroom that gives access to people who are not in the classroom electronically, as well as using the traditional classroom method." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Blended learning · [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=294) > "A lot of schools are exploring this at the moment, primarily because if a child is in quarantine, for example, for fourteen days but is not ill, that they're still able to access the work that needs to be done, and they can still keep up with their work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Blended learning · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=313) > "It's not very easy, and it's going to be quite experimental to start with, so I would encourage parents, kids, and, and teachers to be patient while we're doing it," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Blended learning · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=333) > "It's not an excuse not to be in class. It's there so that we can manage circumstances and situations that are beyond our control." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Blended learning · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=348) > "As we mentioned previously, we are not going to insist on school uniforms for the remainder of the year, but wearing civvies does not mean we're throwing the entire uniform code of conduct out the window." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and dress code · [06:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=374) > "So the children will still have to adhere to the hair policy, the jewelry policy, everything else still applies, and we do expect them to be neat and tidy." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and dress code · [06:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=383) > "Kids are going to see things in tomorrow's email like they may not be wearing beanies, scarves, bandanas, savannas, et cetera. In other words, all the things that kids are touching and then possibly dropping and leaving behind." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and dress code · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=403) > "The bottom line is, even though we're not wearing uniform, that we still neat and tidy, and we represent our school well enough." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Uniform and dress code · [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=441) > "we're not doing extramurals at the moment, and there will be no clubs. There's no homer club per se, there's no archery, there is no chess club. We'll resume clubs and extramurals at a later stage." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term three return · [08:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=482) > "The numbers may be coming down, our lockdown levels may be dropping, but that doesn't mean that our vigilance should drop too. We need to be careful." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID safety protocols · [08:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=508) > "we are still dedicated to our ultimate goal, which we started out with, and that is that our students have a meaningful school year. So if they've done the work and they're prepared for it, that they'll be promoted to the next grade next year," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Meaningful school year · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=527) > "And I think the plan for term three Extends on that commitment that we started, on the 16th of March and that we saw through last term," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Meaningful school year · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=543) > "as well as we've done online. It's just not the same as having those kids in class at school. They really are the soul of the whole place." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term three return · [09:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=560) > "All the other grades, except for cohort four, you guys are online as per term two." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: Staggered cohorts · [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988447_high.mp3#t=580) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Slowly, slowly, we get back on Campus Gershom and Jax Aitchison (Headmaster and Executive Head) It's back to school time again. And as the world keeps changing in response to varying rules and levels Headmaster, Gershom Aitchison, and Executive Head, Jacqueline Aitchison, let all parents and pupils know what to expect. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## End of 2020 Term 2 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-27-end-of-2020-term-2/ - Date: 2020-07-27 (as at 2020-07-27) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: End of Term 2 arrangements, Online parent-teacher meetings, Term 3 rotating cohorts, COVID-19 school planning, Reflection on online learning - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988448 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this episode, Edu Inc headmaster Gershom Aitchison explains the arrangements for the last week of Term 2 at the school, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. Reports will be emailed on Thursday and parent-teacher meetings held online on Friday, and school photos are postponed. He describes the August holiday, including winter school for Grade 12s, and the rotating-cohort model the school has submitted for Term 3. He notes that details depend on COVID numbers and regulations. He closes by reflecting on three months of online teaching. **Key ideas** - Gershom says ISASA guidance indicates the school closures apply to public schools, so as a private school Edu Inc will remain open and follow its plan. ([00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=39)) - Reports are emailed on Thursday and Friday is set aside for 15-minute online meetings with teachers, booked through a Google Calendar link on the school website. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=98)) - Thursday follows a Friday schedule so that one last assembly can take place, and school photos move to the first week of next term. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=124) [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=145) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=155)) - For Term 3, Gershom says the school envisages rotating cohorts. It is debating whether cohorts attend for a week at a time or one day a week. ([03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=200) [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=243) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=259)) - He says the decision depends on COVID numbers, government legislation, Department of Education decisions and the exposure of staff and students. ([03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=209) [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=275)) - Gershom credits early planning by school leadership with giving students continuity and an assured routine during Term 2. ([03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=217) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=219) [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=231)) - He argues that the self-discipline learners have had to build during online schooling is a lesson no school can teach. ([05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=352) [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=400) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=410)) **Booking an online parent-teacher meeting** ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=98) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=111)) 1. Go to the Edu Inc website and click the resources link in the top right-hand corner. 2. Open the document called 2020 T2 Report Collecting Meeting with Teachers. 3. Click the Google Calendar hyperlink next to the teacher's name. 4. Choose a 15-minute slot, type your name in and book the appointment. 5. Be logged in to a Google account; without one, email the teacher to set up a time. **Lessons** - Parents without a Google account need to email the teacher directly to arrange a meeting time, according to Gershom. ([01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=111)) - Gershom stresses that plans remain fluid and that the school must stay flexible while COVID conditions change. ([03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=209) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=293)) - Gershom reports that running precautions on campus for three weeks gave the school useful metrics and worked well. ([05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=327)) - Gershom tells learners that what they are learning about how they study and about self-discipline is among the most valuable lessons of the year. ([05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=352) [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=400)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc parents and learners who need the practical arrangements for the end of Term 2 in 2020, the August holiday dates, Grade 12 winter school, and the school's current thinking on Term 3 attendance during COVID-19. **Facts stated in the episode** - Online parent-teacher appointment slots are 15 minutes long and are held using Google Meets. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=98)) - Grade 12s have winter school in the last two weeks of August. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=180)) - Teachers return on 31 August; students start Term 3 on 1 September. ([03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=190)) - Most students have a four-week holiday in August. ([03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=190)) - The rotating-cohort plan for Term 3 has been submitted to the Department of Education. ([04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=243)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is Edu Inc closing after the government's school closure announcement?** A: Gershom says ISASA advised that the announcement applies to public schools, not private schools. Edu Inc will remain open until ISASA instructs otherwise. ([00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=39)) **Q: How do I book a parent-teacher meeting at Edu Inc for the end of Term 2?** A: Go to the resources section of the Edu Inc website and open the 2020 T2 document. Click the teacher's Google Calendar link and book a 15-minute slot while logged in to Google, or email the teacher if you have no Google account. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=98) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=111)) **Q: When will Term 2 reports be sent out?** A: Reports are planned to be emailed to parents on Thursday afternoon or evening, so that Friday can be used for online meetings with teachers. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61)) **Q: Are school photos still happening this term?** A: No. Gershom says the photos planned for Tuesday are postponed to the first week of next term. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=124)) **Q: Is there school on the last Friday of Term 2?** A: No. Thursday is the last official teaching day and runs a Friday schedule so that a final assembly can be held. Friday is reserved for parent meetings with teachers. ([02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=145) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=155)) **Q: When does Term 3 start?** A: Teachers return on 31 August and students start Term 3 on 1 September. Grade 12s have winter school in the last two weeks of August. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=180) [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=190)) **Q: Will students be on campus in Term 3?** A: The school has submitted a rotating-cohort plan to the Department of Education. Cohorts might attend a week at a time or one day a week, and much teaching will likely continue as it has this term. ([04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=243) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=259) [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=293)) ### Passage: How reports and online teacher meetings will work [01:01-02:46, 340 words] Note (AI): Gives parents the practical steps for booking a 15-minute Google Meet with a teacher, and the revised schedule for the last week of term. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61): > We are planning to have reports emailed to parents Thursday afternoon, Thursday evening, so that parents have Friday where they can make appointments to come and see their teachers. These appointments will be done online using Google Meets. To schedule an appointment to see a teacher, you need to direct yourself to the Edu Inc website. In the top right-hand corner, there is a link for resources. Click on that. And in the resource section, there is a document called 2020 T2 Report Collecting Meeting with Teachers. When you open that document, you will see all the teachers' names listed on the left-hand side, and in the very next column, there's a hyperlink to a Google Calendar that you can click on, and it'll take you through to the teachers' appointment slots, which are 15 minutes long, and you can choose a time, click on there, type your name in, and book that appointment. You will need to be logged in into a Google account to do this. If you do not have a Google account, you need to please email the teacher so that they can set up the time for you. So what that looks like for the rest of the week is the following. Tuesday, we were meant to do school photos. That is not going to happen this term. We are going to postpone it and push it out into the first week of next term. Hopefully things change a little, and we might have opportunities to do school photographs. For the rest of this week, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, the learners will be doing normal school hours following the schedule, with the exception of Thursday where we are going to do a Friday schedule instead of the Thursday schedule so that we can fit in one last assembly before the end of term. That means that Friday there's not going to be any school. The last official school day with teaching is going to be on Thursday. Friday will be reserved for parent meetings with teachers. ### Passage: What Term 3 attendance may look like [03:20-05:36, 418 words] Note (AI): Sets out the rotating-cohort plan submitted to the Department of Education, the options under debate and the factors that will decide them. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=200): > I have to say that a lot of the questions that parents are asking is about what term three looks like in terms of student attendance on the campus. I'm going to sound like a stuck record in saying that things are very fluid at the moment, and we need to remain flexible, but what I can say is that three and a half, four months ago, the leadership of the school looked in a crystal ball at what would happen with COVID over term two. And looking at the numbers increasing as they have, looking at the potential second shutdown of schools, I think that we've done very well in anticipating what it looks like for our students and our teachers and making sure that there's a continuity and that there's an assurance in the routine that we are offering the students. What we envision for the third term is that they are going to be rotating cohorts. That's what we have submitted to the Department of Education. Those rotating cohorts essentially are a group of students based on the needs for them to be at school, and right now we are debating whether the students come on the campus for a week and then take two or three weeks at home, come back on the campus for another week, take two or three weeks at home, or if they come on to campus as a cohort for one day a week. There are a lot of moving parts in that decision, that being the COVID numbers, government legislation, decisions that the Department of Education are making, as well as the exposure of our staff and students to the COVID virus. So I cannot give any concrete information right now. I'm hoping to give more concrete information at the end of August in preparation for September, October, and November, but it is very likely that a large portion of the teaching will continue as it has this term, with the students coming onto campus in a very controlled manner. Once we have a clearer idea of what Term 3 looks like, we will communicate the needs of the school to the students and the parents so that we remain compliant with the government regulations, the Department of Health regulations, the Department of Education regulations regarding COVID. What has been very useful is having the metrics on campus for the last three weeks. As we have been able to enact those precautions, and it has worked very well. ### Passage: Headmaster's reflection on Term 2 [05:52-07:05, 232 words] Note (AI): The headmaster assesses three months of online teaching and thanks teachers, parents and learners. He frames self-discipline as a lesson learnt from experience. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=352): > I'd like to take a moment just to reflect on this term. I feel that it has gone very, very well. I know there are always glitches and hiccups, but I cannot believe the three months have gone so quickly. I cannot believe the level of engagement from my teachers as a teaching staff in overcoming all the challenges of assessment online, of teaching online for a solid three months, and I'm very, very grateful to the parents who support us and are making sure that their learners are studying from home and that they are doing school from home. And finally, I'm very, very grateful to the learners for being open-minded in engaging in something that they had no idea they were capable of, had no idea when we started this year that this is what it was going to look like. But what I can say to you as learners is that what you're learning about yourself right now, what you're learning about how you study and how you engage, and the self-discipline you are having to learn and impose on yourself, these are lessons that no school can teach you, only the experience of life. They are probably one of the most valuable lessons that you will learn this year. I'm proud of everybody, and I want to thank you very much for making Term 2 a great success. ### Quotes > "This week is going to look a little different, as every week this term has felt and looked a little different." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=54) > "I'm going to sound like a stuck record in saying that things are very fluid at the moment, and we need to remain flexible," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=209) > "the leadership of the school looked in a crystal ball at what would happen with COVID over term two." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=219) > "I'm very, very grateful to the learners for being open-minded in engaging in something that they had no idea they were capable of," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=385) > "these are lessons that no school can teach you, only the experience of life." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=410) > "I'm proud of everybody, and I want to thank you very much for making Term 2 a great success." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=421) ### Claims > "Typically in the last week, parents would come in on the Friday and collect their reports and have meetings with the teachers." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [00:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=15) > "The information that we have received from ISASA is that it is for public schools and not for private schools, and as such, as a private school, until further instructed or guided by ISASA, we'll remain open and execute the plan that we have put in place." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school planning · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=39) > "We are planning to have reports emailed to parents Thursday afternoon, Thursday evening, so that parents have Friday where they can make appointments to come and see their teachers. These appointments will be done online using Google Meets." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online parent-teacher meetings · [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=61) > "there's a hyperlink to a Google Calendar that you can click on, and it'll take you through to the teachers' appointment slots, which are 15 minutes long, and you can choose a time, click on there, type your name in, and book that appointment." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online parent-teacher meetings · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=98) > "You will need to be logged in into a Google account to do this. If you do not have a Google account, you need to please email the teacher so that they can set up the time for you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online parent-teacher meetings · [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=111) > "Tuesday, we were meant to do school photos. That is not going to happen this term. We are going to postpone it and push it out into the first week of next term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=124) > "with the exception of Thursday where we are going to do a Friday schedule instead of the Thursday schedule so that we can fit in one last assembly before the end of term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=145) > "That means that Friday there's not going to be any school. The last official school day with teaching is going to be on Thursday. Friday will be reserved for parent meetings with teachers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=155) > "our grade 12s have winter school in the last two weeks of August, and they're aware of that. It'll look a little bit like what the block teaching has been like in the last three weeks of July." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=180) > "for the rest of the students, it's going to be a four-week holiday, with teachers coming back on the 31st of August and the students coming back to start term three on the 1st of September." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of Term 2 arrangements · [03:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=190) > "three and a half, four months ago, the leadership of the school looked in a crystal ball at what would happen with COVID over term two." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school planning · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=217) > "I think that we've done very well in anticipating what it looks like for our students and our teachers and making sure that there's a continuity and that there's an assurance in the routine that we are offering the students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school planning · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=231) > "What we envision for the third term is that they are going to be rotating cohorts. That's what we have submitted to the Department of Education." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 3 rotating cohorts · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=243) > "right now we are debating whether the students come on the campus for a week and then take two or three weeks at home, come back on the campus for another week, take two or three weeks at home, or if they come on to campus as a cohort for one day a week." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 3 rotating cohorts · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=259) > "There are a lot of moving parts in that decision, that being the COVID numbers, government legislation, decisions that the Department of Education are making, as well as the exposure of our staff and students to the COVID virus." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 3 rotating cohorts · [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=275) > "I'm hoping to give more concrete information at the end of August in preparation for September, October, and November, but it is very likely that a large portion of the teaching will continue as it has this term, with the students coming onto campus in a very controlled manner." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 3 rotating cohorts · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=293) > "What has been very useful is having the metrics on campus for the last three weeks. As we have been able to enact those precautions, and it has worked very well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 school planning · [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=327) > "I cannot believe the level of engagement from my teachers as a teaching staff in overcoming all the challenges of assessment online, of teaching online for a solid three months," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reflection on online learning · [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=363) > "I'm very, very grateful to the parents who support us and are making sure that their learners are studying from home and that they are doing school from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reflection on online learning · [06:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=375) > "what you're learning about yourself right now, what you're learning about how you study and how you engage, and the self-discipline you are having to learn and impose on yourself, these are lessons that no school can teach you, only the experience of life." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reflection on online learning · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988448_high.mp3#t=400) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) What's happening the last week of Term 2? Headmaster Gershom Aitchison How will report collection work and what about school photos? Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## The ability of art to save our souls | Brennan Kennedy - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-07-the-ability-of-art-to-save/ - Date: 2020-07-07 (as at 2020-07-07) - Guest: Brennan Kennedy - Themes: art as stress relief, teen mental health, creativity and inspiration, pandemic isolation and art, doodling for focus - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988453 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Brennan Kennedy - A teen in school who gave an Edu Inc TED-Ed talk on the ability of art to save our souls. In their own words: > "This talk is by a teen, for other teens who are in school and have no idea how to show their feelings." [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=8) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This is a TED-Ed talk by Brennan Kennedy, a teen speaking to other teens who struggle to show their feelings. He argues that any form of art can relieve stress. He draws on his own experience: a year-long creative block ended by someone else's art, and doodling in class to stay focused. He cites South African figures on teen suicide and reflects on how the COVID-19 pandemic affected street art and his own creative habits. He closes by urging listeners to create without fear of judgment. **Key ideas** - Brennan defines art broadly as any expression or application of human creative skills, prompted by boredom, excitement, curiosity or sadness as well as stress. ([00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=33) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=54)) - Brennan says sketching while he listens helps him concentrate in class, and his teachers allow it for that reason. ([01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=103) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=113)) - Brennan argues that teens face more stimulation than earlier generations and feel isolated despite social media, which can lead to anxiety and other disorders. ([02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=125) [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=140)) - Brennan cites South African figures on teen suicide to show the most extreme outcome of pent-up stress. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=122) [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=180) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=197)) - Brennan noticed that he did less art during online lessons in the pandemic, and asks whether large-scale stress suppresses creative skill. ([03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=208) [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=246) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=276)) - Brennan says inspiration passes between people: another person's art restarted his creativity, and his art later inspired a younger student. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=72) [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=348) [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=361) [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=373)) - Brennan argues that art is about expressing feelings and mental health, not about judgment or how the result looks. ([06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=395) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=399) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=410) [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=414)) **Lessons** - Brennan advises finding whatever makes your creativity flow, and looking for it if you do not yet know. ([05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=310)) - Brennan suggests that any artistic hobby can serve as stress relief, whatever form it takes. ([00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=54) [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=322)) - Brennan's experience suggests that stress can quietly cut creative activity, so it is worth checking your own habits. ([04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=246) [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=296)) - Brennan urges listeners not to fear being not good enough, because the point of art is how it makes you feel. ([06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=395) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=410)) **Who it's for:** Teens in school who are shy, anxious or holding in stress. Also parents and teachers interested in how art and doodling can support focus and mental health. **Facts stated in the episode** - Brennan says 9% of all teen deaths in South Africa are due to suicide, and the figure is increasing. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=180)) - Brennan says suicide is the second leading and fastest growing cause of death among 15 to 24 year olds. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=180)) - Brennan says children as young as 7 have committed suicide in South Africa, and 22 people take their lives daily. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=197)) - Brennan says Smithsonian Magazine published an article on COVID-19 street art in April 2020. ([03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=227)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: How can art help teenagers with stress?** A: Brennan argues that any artistic hobby is a great method of stress relief. He says art is about expressing your feelings, stresses, pain and joy, and about therapy and mental health. ([00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=23) [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=322) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=410)) **Q: Does doodling in class help students concentrate?** A: Brennan says that when his mind wanders he doodles in his books. His teachers allow it because sketching while he listens helps him concentrate. ([01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=103) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=113)) **Q: How common is teen suicide in South Africa?** A: Citing the South African Depression and Anxiety Group, Brennan says 9% of teen deaths in South Africa are due to suicide. In the 15 to 24 age group it is the second leading cause of death, and 22 people take their own lives every day. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=180) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=197)) **Q: Why are teenagers today so stressed?** A: Brennan says teens face far more stimulation than earlier generations, less connected relationships despite social media, family and friendship dramas, trauma, and social and academic pressure at school. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=122) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=125) [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=140)) **Q: Did the COVID-19 pandemic affect people's creativity?** A: Brennan notes a surge of pandemic-inspired street art worldwide. He also found he was doing less art himself during online lessons, and asks whether large-scale stress suppresses creative skill, which he says is too early to answer. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=214) [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=246) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=276)) **Q: How do you get over a creative block?** A: Brennan says he lost the will to create for about a year, and got back into it only after being inspired by someone else's art. ([01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=72)) **Q: What if my art isn't good enough?** A: Brennan says not to be afraid of not being good enough, because art is not about judgment. What matters is how it makes you feel, not what it looks like. ([06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=395) [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=410) [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=414)) ### Passage: What art is and why Brennan makes it [00:02-01:37, 249 words] Note (AI): Sets out the talk's audience, defines art broadly, and describes how another person's art ended Brennan's year-long creative block. Brennan Kennedy, guest [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=2): > My name is Brennan Kennedy, and I am talking about the ability of art to save our souls. This talk is by a teen, for other teens who are in school and have no idea how to show their feelings. People who are shy, anxious, or socially challenged, but mostly who usually suppress their stress. This is about how art can help you let all of that go. It did for me, so it can for you. First of all, what is art? According to Google, the definition of art is expression or application of human creative skills. This means that art can be expressed through painting, sketching, sculpturing, music, dance, writing, singing, poetry, and the list goes on to include any two or three dimensional representation of human creativity. It should be noted that stress isn't the only reason to work on art projects. Feeling bored, excited, curious, or even sad can inspire you to get creative. Personally, one of the reasons I use art is a method of alleviating boredom and rediscovering my motivation. I had a block for about a year a while back where I had lost the will to produce anything creative, and the only reason I got into it again was because I was inspired by someone else's art. That inspiration was enough for me to say, wow, that is amazing. I really want to be able to do that. It gave me an itch to want to start learning that thing now. ### Passage: Teen stress and South African suicide statistics [02:02-03:25, 193 words] Note (AI): Explains the sources of teen stress Brennan names and cites South African Depression and Anxiety Group figures on teen suicide. Brennan Kennedy, guest [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=122): > And then there is stress. Studies show that teens of today are exposed to far more stimulation than any generations before us. We are bombarded by a level of stimulation that can overwhelm us and result in anxiety, social, or attention disorders. This is made worse by the less connected social relationships we find despite more social media, resulting in the feeling of isolation. Personal problems like family dynamics, the dramas with friends, and sometimes even strangers, trauma, and the social and academic challenges we face at school can all contribute to this overwhelming feeling of stress. What can happen to teenagers who suffer from pent-up stress? Information gathered from the South African Depression and Anxiety Group talks about the most extreme action teens sometimes resort to when they can't cope with their stress. They tell us that in South Africa, 9% of all teen deaths are due to suicide, and this figures on the increase. In the 15 to 24 age group, suicide is the second leading and fastest growing cause of death. Children as young as 7 have committed suicide in South Africa. Every day, 22 people take their own lives. ### Passage: How the pandemic affected art and his own creativity [03:28-05:09, 272 words] Note (AI): Contrasts the public surge in pandemic street art with Brennan's own unnoticed drop in creative activity, and asks whether large-scale stress suppresses creativity. Brennan Kennedy, guest [03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=208): > Recently, I noticed how the stress of the coronavirus pandemic has affected art around the world. There has been a surge of pandemic-inspired street art, which tells us that a great number of people are using art in a public forum to express their fears, feelings, and even humor about the virus. In April 2020, Smithsonian Magazine published an article dedicated to the COVID-19 street art that is greeting people as the world eases its lockdowns. Personally and surprisingly, I noticed how little art I was doing now that my lessons are all online. When I was asked how the pandemic is affecting me, I realized how little after school or free time I was using for creative stress relief, when I assumed that the opposite would have been the case. Human beings are not designed to be isolated. We might have the introverts and the extroverts, but humans still need to see other human beings and interact with them to be healthy. This highlights the mental toll that the isolation we are all enduring is having on people, and brings up the question, does large-scale stress suppress creative skill? It is too early to answer this question with regards to COVID-19. But it is a scary thought worth investigating once this is all over, and we can truly measure the full effects of the virus. After this was pointed out to me, I nudged myself to start doing more creative things when I can. It was a great feeling to go back to doodling in classes after being completely unaware I had stopped due to the stressful changes happening around me. ### Passage: Inspiring a younger student and a closing challenge [05:48-06:59, 190 words] Note (AI): Describes Brennan's art inspiring a younger student, then gives his challenge to listeners to create without fear of judgment. Brennan Kennedy, guest [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=348): > The reason I got into art in the first place is because someone inspired me. I never thought, however, that so soon in my life I would get to be on the receiving end of such an achievement. Not too long ago, someone in my school, a younger student, told me that my art had inspired him. He wanted to learn to do what I was doing. I was speechless. Work done by my own hands caused someone to aspire to do something themselves. It felt like an achievement, but no, it was an achievement that arrived way sooner than I expected. I've met new people through art, inspired people. I get the greatest feeling from someone saying, "Wow, that looks so good" when they see my art. My challenge to you now is to get creative. Don't be afraid of not being good enough. Art is not about judgment. It is about expressing your feelings, your stresses, your pain, and your joy. It is about therapy and mental health and taking care of yourself. It doesn't matter what it looks like. What matters is how it makes you feel. ### Quotes > "This is about how art can help you let all of that go. It did for me, so it can for you." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=23) > "Every day, 22 people take their own lives." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=202) > "Human beings are not designed to be isolated." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=259) > "Someone once said, artists and snipers have two things in common. They both pay attention to detail and they can catch nuances less creative people cannot." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=334) > "Work done by my own hands caused someone to aspire to do something themselves." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=373) > "Don't be afraid of not being good enough. Art is not about judgment." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=399) > "It doesn't matter what it looks like. What matters is how it makes you feel." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=414) ### Claims > "This talk is by a teen, for other teens who are in school and have no idea how to show their feelings." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: teen mental health · [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=8) > "According to Google, the definition of art is expression or application of human creative skills." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: what is art · [00:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=33) > "It should be noted that stress isn't the only reason to work on art projects. Feeling bored, excited, curious, or even sad can inspire you to get creative." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: creativity and inspiration · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=54) > "I had a block for about a year a while back where I had lost the will to produce anything creative, and the only reason I got into it again was because I was inspired by someone else's art." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: creativity and inspiration · [01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=72) > "When I am in school and I start to get distracted by my own mind, instead of concentrating on the lesson, I doodle wherever there is an open space in my books." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: doodling for focus · [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=103) > "It probably drives my teachers crazy, but they let me do it because they know that allowing me to sketch while I listen really does help me concentrate." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: doodling for focus · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=113) > "Studies show that teens of today are exposed to far more stimulation than any generations before us. We are bombarded by a level of stimulation that can overwhelm us and result in anxiety, social, or attention disorders." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: teen mental health · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=125) > "This is made worse by the less connected social relationships we find despite more social media, resulting in the feeling of isolation." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: teen mental health · [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=140) > "They tell us that in South Africa, 9% of all teen deaths are due to suicide, and this figures on the increase. In the 15 to 24 age group, suicide is the second leading and fastest growing cause of death." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: teen mental health · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=180) > "Children as young as 7 have committed suicide in South Africa. Every day, 22 people take their own lives." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: teen mental health · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=197) > "There has been a surge of pandemic-inspired street art, which tells us that a great number of people are using art in a public forum to express their fears, feelings, and even humor about the virus." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: pandemic isolation and art · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=214) > "In April 2020, Smithsonian Magazine published an article dedicated to the COVID-19 street art that is greeting people as the world eases its lockdowns." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: pandemic isolation and art · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=227) > "When I was asked how the pandemic is affecting me, I realized how little after school or free time I was using for creative stress relief, when I assumed that the opposite would have been the case." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: pandemic isolation and art · [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=246) > "Human beings are not designed to be isolated. We might have the introverts and the extroverts, but humans still need to see other human beings and interact with them to be healthy." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: pandemic isolation and art · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=259) > "brings up the question, does large-scale stress suppress creative skill? It is too early to answer this question with regards to COVID-19." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: pandemic isolation and art · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=276) > "After this was pointed out to me, I nudged myself to start doing more creative things when I can. It was a great feeling to go back to doodling in classes" >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: doodling for focus · [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=296) > "What makes your creative juices flow and gets you inspired? If you do not know, look for it." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: creativity and inspiration · [05:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=310) > "The important thing is that any form of artistic hobby is a great method of stress relief. Art opens your eyes to the world. You notice things that are out of place." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: art as stress relief · [05:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=322) > "Not too long ago, someone in my school, a younger student, told me that my art had inspired him. He wanted to learn to do what I was doing." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: creativity and inspiration · [06:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=361) > "My challenge to you now is to get creative. Don't be afraid of not being good enough. Art is not about judgment." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: art as stress relief · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=395) > "It is about therapy and mental health and taking care of yourself. It doesn't matter what it looks like. What matters is how it makes you feel." >, Brennan Kennedy, guest · topic: art as stress relief · [06:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988453_high.mp3#t=410) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) An Edu Inc TED-Ed talk - Brennan Kennedy Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Hair as an identity | Pebo Moeketsi - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-07-hair-as-an-identity/ - Date: 2020-07-07 (as at 2020-07-07) - Guest: Pebo Moeketsi - Themes: Hair and identity, Natural hair care, Race and belonging, Hair in history, Black beauty role models - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988450 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Pebo Moeketsi - Gave an Edu Inc TED-Ed talk on hair as an identity. She previously lived in Portugal, where a boy at her school compared her hair to a pot cleaner. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short Edu Inc TED-Ed talk in which Pebo Moeketsi argues that hair is an identity. She recounts wearing straight hair without realising she had conformed to a Western culture, and a boy at her school in Portugal comparing her hair to a pot cleaner. That prompted her to care for her natural hair. She points to hairstyles as status markers in ancient African societies and in Marie Antoinette's era, describes coming to love 4C shrinkage, and names Issa Rae and Zozibini Tunzi as inspirations. **Key ideas** - Pebo argues that wearing straight hair meant she had unknowingly conformed to a Western culture that was not hers and not African. ([00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=9) [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=18)) - A hurtful comment about her hair's texture made Pebo see the issue as bigger than herself and as requiring a political stand. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=32) [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=47) [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=47)) - Pebo presents hair as a historical marker of social place, from ancient African kings and queen mothers to Marie Antoinette. ([01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86) [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86) [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=107)) - Pebo calls hair a subculture people use to make a statement, prove something or be themselves. ([01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=119) [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=119)) - Pebo says visible role models matter so that children see their own faces reflected in hers. ([02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=179) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=197) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=207)) - Pebo concludes that hair is her identity, heritage and blackness, and she is unapologetic about it. ([03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211) [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211)) **Lessons** - Pebo's account suggests that norms can be absorbed unknowingly; she only noticed she had conformed after a comment about her hair. ([00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=18) [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=32)) - Pebo describes caring for natural hair by researching on YouTube, avoiding sulfur products, using oil and water based products and the right conditioner. ([00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=59)) - Pebo says she reframed shrinkage, something she once struggled with, into a source of pride that feels like a superpower. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=128) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=138) [02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=147)) - Pebo treats representation as important, drawing strength from Issa Rae and Zozibini Tunzi and wanting children to see themselves in her. ([02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=164) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=179) [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=197)) **Who it's for:** Students, parents and teachers interested in identity, race and self-acceptance, and anyone with natural or 4C hair looking for one young speaker's story of learning to embrace it. **Facts stated in the episode** - Pebo says 4C hair can shrink up to 80%. ([02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=138)) - Pebo names Zozibini Tunzi as Miss Universe 2019. ([02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=179)) - Pebo says Marie Antoinette is said to have added model ship figurines to her hair. ([01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=107)) - Pebo previously lived in Portugal, where she attended school. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=32)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why does Pebo Moeketsi say hair is an identity?** A: She says hair is more than dead cells: it is her identity, heritage and blackness, and she is unapologetic about it. ([03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211) [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211)) **Q: What made her stop straightening her hair?** A: A boy at her school in Portugal compared her hair to a pot cleaner. It hurt, and she decided the issue was bigger than her and took a political stand. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=32) [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=47)) **Q: How does she care for natural hair?** A: She watched YouTube videos, avoided products with sulfur, used oil and water based products and the right conditioner, and invested money in her kinky natural hair. ([00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=59)) **Q: How much can 4C hair shrink?** A: Pebo says 4C hair can shrink up to 80%, which she compares to going from a piece of broccoli to a pea. ([02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=138) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=142)) **Q: What did hairstyles mean in ancient African societies?** A: According to Pebo, the hairstyle indicated your place in society: kings had extravagant styles, noble men intricate ones, and queen mothers the most beautiful. ([01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86) [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86)) **Q: Who inspires Pebo to wear her natural hair?** A: She names Issa Rae, who is proud of her kinks, and Miss Universe 2019 Zozibini Tunzi, who spoke about women like her never being considered beautiful. ([02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=164) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=179)) **Q: Why does representation of natural hair matter to her?** A: She says it is time that women like her stop being seen as not beautiful, and she wants children to see their faces reflected in hers. ([03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=197) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=207)) ### Passage: From straight hair to embracing natural hair [00:03-01:25, 216 words] Note (AI): Pebo's personal turning point: a racist comment at school in Portugal led her to question conforming to Western hair norms and change her hair care. Pebo Moeketsi, guest [00:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=3): > I am Pebo Moeketsi, and I am talking about hair as an identity. For years, I had medium-length straight hair. I loved it. It would move in the wind, and I could tuck it behind my ear. That time, I didn't realize that I had conformed to a Western culture, a culture that wasn't mine, and a culture that wasn't African. It was only when someone commented on the texture of my hair. A boy approached me at my school when I lived in Portugal. I was already dealing with not feeling welcome because of my race. He compared my hair to a pot cleaner. You know, one of those rough-and-tough things? Yep, that. It hurt, but I knew that this was bigger than me. I had to take a political stand. Before this comment was said, I didn't realize my hair affected so many people. It was at this moment I started watching YouTube videos, thought of being actively aware of the products I was using, making sure I was not using products that had sulfur, using many oil and water based products, using the right conditioner and investing money into updating my kinky natural hair. Before that, I didn't really care what products I was using, just as long as my hair was washed. ### Passage: Hair's history and learning to love shrinkage [01:26-02:43, 206 words] Note (AI): Links hair as a status marker in ancient African societies and Marie Antoinette's era to Pebo's own growing pride in 4C hair. Pebo Moeketsi, guest [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86): > In ancient African societies, the hairstyle you had was indicative of your place in society. If you were a king, you had a very extravagant hairstyle. Noble men also had very intricate hairstyles. Queen mothers had the most beautiful hairstyles. Once again, away hair represented people. In the times of Marie Antoinette, Marie Antoinette was known for having the most flamboyant hairstyles. She is even said to have added model ship figurines in her hair. Hair is a subculture all on its own. People use their hair to make a statement, to prove something, or to just be themselves. For years, it took me forever to actually feel empowered and fall in love with my keys and curls and the shrinkage. Don't get me started on the shrinkage. Did you know that 4C hair can shrink up to 80%? That means I could go from looking like a piece of broccoli to looking like a pea. That is actually something I have grown to love because when I am rocking my TWA, also known as teeny weeny afro, I feel as though I have a superpower. Because when I blow dry or stretch my hair, it becomes huge. And I can go, yep, I did that. ### Passage: Role models and hair as heritage [02:44-03:46, 159 words] Note (AI): Names the women who inspire her, states why representation matters for children, and closes with her central claim that hair is identity. Pebo Moeketsi, guest [02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=164): > Women that have inspired me to rock my own coarse and coily hair include Issa Rae. She is unapologetically proud of her kinks. She talks about this mildly in her show, The Awkward Black Girl. Another strong black woman that keeps me loving and appreciating my hair is Miss Universe 2019, Miss Zozibini Tunzi, when she said, I grew up in a world where women who look like me, with my kind of skin and my kind of hair, was never considered beautiful. The model said this prior to her crowning, and I think that it is time that this stops. I want children to look at me and see my face. I want them to see their faces reflected in mine. To me, hair is more than just dead cells, but it's my identity, it's my heritage, it's my blackness, it's me, and I am unapologetic about it. I want to ask you, does your hair empower you? ### Quotes > "He compared my hair to a pot cleaner." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=39) > "It hurt, but I knew that this was bigger than me." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=47) > "Hair is a subculture all on its own." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=119) > "That means I could go from looking like a piece of broccoli to looking like a pea." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=142) > "I want them to see their faces reflected in mine." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=207) > "To me, hair is more than just dead cells, but it's my identity, it's my heritage, it's my blackness, it's me, and I am unapologetic about it." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211) > "I want to ask you, does your hair empower you?" >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=223) ### Claims > "For years, I had medium-length straight hair. I loved it. It would move in the wind, and I could tuck it behind my ear." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair and identity · [00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=9) > "That time, I didn't realize that I had conformed to a Western culture, a culture that wasn't mine, and a culture that wasn't African." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair and identity · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=18) > "A boy approached me at my school when I lived in Portugal. I was already dealing with not feeling welcome because of my race. He compared my hair to a pot cleaner." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Race and belonging · [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=32) > "It hurt, but I knew that this was bigger than me. I had to take a political stand." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Race and belonging · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=47) > "It was at this moment I started watching YouTube videos, thought of being actively aware of the products I was using, making sure I was not using products that had sulfur, using many oil and water based products, using the right conditioner and investing money into updating my kinky natural hair." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Natural hair care · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=59) > "In ancient African societies, the hairstyle you had was indicative of your place in society. If you were a king, you had a very extravagant hairstyle." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair in history · [01:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=86) > "In the times of Marie Antoinette, Marie Antoinette was known for having the most flamboyant hairstyles. She is even said to have added model ship figurines in her hair." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair in history · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=107) > "Hair is a subculture all on its own. People use their hair to make a statement, to prove something, or to just be themselves." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair and identity · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=119) > "For years, it took me forever to actually feel empowered and fall in love with my keys and curls and the shrinkage." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Natural hair care · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=128) > "Did you know that 4C hair can shrink up to 80%? That means I could go from looking like a piece of broccoli to looking like a pea." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Natural hair care · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=138) > "That is actually something I have grown to love because when I am rocking my TWA, also known as teeny weeny afro, I feel as though I have a superpower." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Natural hair care · [02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=147) > "Women that have inspired me to rock my own coarse and coily hair include Issa Rae. She is unapologetically proud of her kinks." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Black beauty role models · [02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=164) > "Another strong black woman that keeps me loving and appreciating my hair is Miss Universe 2019, Miss Zozibini Tunzi, when she said, I grew up in a world where women who look like me, with my kind of skin and my kind of hair, was never considered beautiful." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Black beauty role models · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=179) > "The model said this prior to her crowning, and I think that it is time that this stops. I want children to look at me and see my face." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Black beauty role models · [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=197) > "To me, hair is more than just dead cells, but it's my identity, it's my heritage, it's my blackness, it's me, and I am unapologetic about it." >, Pebo Moeketsi, guest · topic: Hair and identity · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988450_high.mp3#t=211) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) An Edu Inc TED-Ed talk - Pebo Moeketsi Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## The Magic of Minecraft | Chad Fanaroff - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-07-the-magic-of-minecraft/ - Date: 2020-07-07 (as at 2020-07-07) - Guest: Chad Fanaroff - Themes: Minecraft and learning, Friendship and belonging online, ADD and social difficulty, Online learning during COVID-19, Maths through gaming, Confidence and self-worth - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988452 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Chad Fanaroff - Has ADD; found making friends harder than most in grade three; started playing Minecraft mid-way through third grade on a server known as Lifeboat. (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A short TED-Ed style talk by Chad Fanaroff on how Minecraft helps children. Chad draws on his own experience of having ADD and finding friendships hard in grade three, and of being welcomed by strangers on the Lifeboat server. He argues the game builds reading, spelling, planning, problem solving and maths. He describes schools, including his own, adding Minecraft Education Edition to lockdown timetables during COVID-19. He closes by saying the game gave him confidence and that, for many, it is a lifesaver. **Key ideas** - Chad argues Minecraft lets people who find real-world friendship hard make friends online, as he did after strangers on the Lifeboat server helped him. ([00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=26) [00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=35) [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=80)) - Chad values the 'mystery of the player': nobody knows your race, age or gender, so players are accepted for what they can do. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=95) [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=100) [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=104)) - Chad says the game improves reading and spelling because players can copy other players' spellings, and it introduces creativity, self-direction and collaboration. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=114) [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=117)) - Chad argues night-time dangers force players to plan ahead, teaching problem solving and planning. ([02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=133)) - Chad says maths is heavily used, as players calculate food, trade amounts and building space, and some children ask to be tested on multiplication. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=153) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=159) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=169)) - Chad describes schools adopting Minecraft Education Edition for online learning during COVID-19 lockdowns, including his own school for learners up to age 15. ([03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=182) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=194) [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=212)) - Chad says the game gave him confidence and creativity and helps many children feel worthy. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=228) [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=244) [04:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=262)) **Lessons** - Chad's experience suggests online game communities can give children who struggle socially a place to be welcomed and make friends. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=35) [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=41) [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=80)) - Chad argues in-game needs, such as food for mining or space for a build, can motivate children to learn maths concepts. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=153) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=169)) - Chad describes Minecraft Education Edition as one tool schools used to keep learning and social connection going during lockdown. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=194) [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=212)) - Chad argues success in the game can build confidence and a sense of worth. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=228) [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=244)) **Who it's for:** Parents, teachers and school leaders weighing the educational and social value of Minecraft, especially for children who find friendships hard, and anyone interested in how a school used Minecraft Education Edition during COVID-19 lockdowns. **Facts stated in the episode** - Chad says he has ADD (attention deficit disorder). ([00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=52)) - Chad started playing Minecraft in the middle of grade three on a server called Lifeboat, which no longer exists. ([01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=68)) - Chad says Minecraft Education Edition includes lessons in science, maths and coding. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=194)) - Chad's school added Minecraft Education to its lockdown timetable for learners up to the age of 15. ([03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=212)) - Chad states Minecraft currently has over 100 million players worldwide. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=234)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can Minecraft help kids who struggle to make friends?** A: Chad says yes: with ADD he found friendship hard in grade three, but players on the Lifeboat server were kind to him as a stranger, helped him, and he became friends with many of them. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=35) [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=41) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=68) [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=80)) **Q: Is Minecraft actually educational?** A: Chad argues it enhances reading and writing, lets players learn spellings from others, and teaches problem solving and planning because players must prepare for dangerous creatures at nightfall. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=114) [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=117) [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=133)) **Q: How does Minecraft teach maths?** A: According to Chad, players must work out how much food they need to go mining, how much to buy from other players, and how much space a structure needs; some children even asked to be tested on multiplication flashcards. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=153) [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=169)) **Q: What is Minecraft Education Edition and did schools use it during COVID?** A: Chad says school leaders adapting to online learning considered it; it includes lessons in science, maths and coding. His school added it to its lockdown timetable for learners up to age 15. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=194) [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=212)) **Q: Why does anonymity in Minecraft matter?** A: Chad says nobody knows your race, age or gender, so players are accepted for what they can do rather than who they are. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=95) [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=104)) **Q: How many people play Minecraft?** A: Chad states there are currently over 100 million players worldwide, and millions of children have started playing in the past seven years. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=234) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=240)) **Q: What difference did Minecraft make to the speaker personally?** A: Chad says it gave him confidence and creativity and made him happier and stronger as a person. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=228) [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=232)) ### Passage: Chad's own story of finding friends in Minecraft [00:35-01:53, 242 words] Note (AI): Chad's first-hand account of ADD, struggling to make friends in grade three, and being welcomed by strangers on the Lifeboat server. Chad Fanaroff, guest [00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=35): > You might be wondering how a video game can make changes to someone's life. Let me tell you how it can. When I was in grade three, I wasn't the most popular person in the class. I did have friends, but it was just a small group. I always found it harder than most people to make friends. Maybe because I have ADD or attention deficit disorder. People like me have trouble paying attention in school and concentrating in general. It also causes people like me to have difficulty with friendships and emotional relationships. I started playing Minecraft in the middle of my third grade year. It was very popular then in my school, and I started playing on a server back then known as Lifeboat. It no longer exists. They were so kind and friendly to me, even though I was a complete stranger to them. It didn't matter to them that they didn't know me. What mattered was that I was new and needed help, and they came to help me. I became friends with many of them. One of the great things about Minecraft is the mystery of the player. The reason it is great is because no one knows what race, age, or gender you are, so in a way, it's a getaway for most players to escape to a somewhat virtual haven where they are accepted for what they can do and not for who they are. ### Passage: Why Minecraft is educational [01:54-03:02, 193 words] Note (AI): Sets out Chad's argument that the game builds reading, spelling, planning, problem solving and maths through in-game needs. Chad Fanaroff, guest [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=114): > Minecraft is educational, and here's why. It's self-explanatory and enhances their basic abilities such as reading and writing, because it introduces creativity, self-direction, and collaboration. If you don't know how to spell a word in the game, you can look at other players' spellings to help you figure it out. Problem solving and planning skills are taught in Minecraft. When night falls in the game, different types of dangerous creatures come out, meaning that before nightfall, the players should have already strategized how to deal with the situation, that they already have a makeshift shelter, enough food to get to the night, and weapons to defend themselves. Maths is heavily used in this game, and players learn mathematical concepts to be more successful in the game. Some kids have even asked their mothers to test them on multiplication flashcards so they can play more effectively, things they've never done before. One of the reasons players learn the concepts easier is because they have to work out how much food is needed to go mining, how much to buy amongst players, and how much space they will need to build a structure or city. ### Passage: Minecraft in lockdown schooling and its wider impact [03:02-04:26, 226 words] Note (AI): Describes schools adopting Minecraft Education Edition during COVID-19 lockdowns, including Chad's own school, and closes on confidence and self-worth. Chad Fanaroff, guest [03:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=182): > This year has been an eye opener for schools as our world coped with navigating the challenges of COVID-19 and whole nations went into hard lockdowns. Schools were instructed to close. Many school leaders needed to adapt their curricula for online learning, and while researching what they could implement as part of their online education, they considered Minecraft Education Edition. This program includes lessons in science, maths, and coding, to name a few. My school's an example of one that incorporated Minecraft Education into our schooling from home timetable, so that learners up to the age of 15 could benefit from continued learning while having some fun and connecting with their friends during the isolation of coronavirus. Minecraft has given me a sense of confidence and creativity. It has made me happier and stronger as a person, and in the past seven years, millions of children have started playing Minecraft. In fact, there are currently over 100 million players worldwide. They have found this to be their way to escape a difficult world and be themselves without being judged for being different and unique. Not only has the game allowed them to have fun and learn, their success makes them feel worthy, a feeling that is not often experienced by children such as these. Minecraft isn't just a game. For many, it's a lifesaver. Thank you. ### Quotes > "Your only limit is your imagination. Tony Robbins." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=7) > "What mattered was that I was new and needed help, and they came to help me." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [01:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=87) > "no one knows what race, age, or gender you are," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=100) > "a getaway for most players to escape to a somewhat virtual haven where they are accepted for what they can do and not for who they are." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=104) > "Some kids have even asked their mothers to test them on multiplication flashcards so they can play more effectively," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=159) > "It has made me happier and stronger as a person," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=232) > "there are currently over 100 million players worldwide." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=240) > "Minecraft isn't just a game. For many, it's a lifesaver." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · [04:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=262) ### Claims > "Today I'm going to be talking about how the video game Minecraft is helping millions of children of all ages improve their reading and communication abilities, as well as assisting them in learning to share their emotions with other online players." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Minecraft and learning · [00:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=12) > "Minecraft has also made it possible for people who find it difficult to make friends in the real world, instead they are able to make friends online." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Friendship and belonging online · [00:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=26) > "When I was in grade three, I wasn't the most popular person in the class. I did have friends, but it was just a small group. I always found it harder than most people to make friends." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: ADD and social difficulty · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=41) > "Maybe because I have ADD or attention deficit disorder. People like me have trouble paying attention in school and concentrating in general. It also causes people like me to have difficulty with friendships and emotional relationships." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: ADD and social difficulty · [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=52) > "I started playing Minecraft in the middle of my third grade year. It was very popular then in my school, and I started playing on a server back then known as Lifeboat. It no longer exists." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Friendship and belonging online · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=68) > "They were so kind and friendly to me, even though I was a complete stranger to them. It didn't matter to them that they didn't know me. What mattered was that I was new and needed help, and they came to help me. I became friends with many of them." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Friendship and belonging online · [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=80) > "One of the great things about Minecraft is the mystery of the player. The reason it is great is because no one knows what race, age, or gender you are," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Friendship and belonging online · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=95) > "It's self-explanatory and enhances their basic abilities such as reading and writing, because it introduces creativity, self-direction, and collaboration. If you don't know how to spell a word in the game, you can look at other players' spellings to help you figure it out." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Minecraft and learning · [01:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=117) > "Problem solving and planning skills are taught in Minecraft. When night falls in the game, different types of dangerous creatures come out, meaning that before nightfall, the players should have already strategized how to deal with the situation," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Minecraft and learning · [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=133) > "Maths is heavily used in this game, and players learn mathematical concepts to be more successful in the game. Some kids have even asked their mothers to test them on multiplication flashcards so they can play more effectively, things they've never done before." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Maths through gaming · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=153) > "One of the reasons players learn the concepts easier is because they have to work out how much food is needed to go mining, how much to buy amongst players, and how much space they will need to build a structure or city." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Maths through gaming · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=169) > "Many school leaders needed to adapt their curricula for online learning, and while researching what they could implement as part of their online education, they considered Minecraft Education Edition. This program includes lessons in science, maths, and coding, to name a few." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Online learning during COVID-19 · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=194) > "My school's an example of one that incorporated Minecraft Education into our schooling from home timetable, so that learners up to the age of 15 could benefit from continued learning while having some fun and connecting with their friends during the isolation of coronavirus." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Online learning during COVID-19 · [03:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=212) > "Minecraft has given me a sense of confidence and creativity. It has made me happier and stronger as a person," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Confidence and self-worth · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=228) > "in the past seven years, millions of children have started playing Minecraft. In fact, there are currently over 100 million players worldwide." >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Minecraft and learning · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=234) > "They have found this to be their way to escape a difficult world and be themselves without being judged for being different and unique. Not only has the game allowed them to have fun and learn, their success makes them feel worthy," >, Chad Fanaroff, guest · topic: Confidence and self-worth · [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988452_high.mp3#t=244) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) An Edu Inc TED-Ed talk - Chad Fanaroff Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## I'm OK, you're OK | Trinity Nel - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-07-i-m-ok-you-re-ok/ - Date: 2020-07-07 (as at 2020-07-07) - Guest: Trinity Nel - Themes: Self-care for helpers, Student leadership, Four life positions, Risks of self-negation, Acknowledging emotions - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988449 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Trinity Nel - student leader - A student leader who gave the Edu Inc TED-Ed talk 'I'm OK, you're OK'. In their own words: > "The first piece of advice I was given when I became a student leader was to not let other people's circumstances and situations consume me." [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This episode is a TED-Ed-style talk by Trinity Nel, a student leader. She argues that people who care for others risk self-negation, losing their own sense of self while consumed by other people's problems. She uses Thomas Anthony Harris's four life positions from 'I'm Okay, You're Okay' to show the helping relationships a person can land in. She then gives three self-care practices for reaching 'I'm okay, you're okay'. She draws on her own experience of becoming numb to her emotions as a student leader. **Key ideas** - Trinity argues that caring for others can pull helpers into self-negation, which she defines as the denial of evidence and existence of oneself. ([01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=63) [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=70) [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=77)) - Trinity says being consumed by others' problems can harm mental, emotional and physical health, possibly requiring professional intervention or medication, which she says is nothing to be ashamed of. ([01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=92) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=108) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=108)) - Trinity uses Thomas Anthony Harris's four life positions to describe outcomes of helping, from both people suffering to both emerging stronger. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116) [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=138) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=155) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=166) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=183)) - Trinity presents 'I'm okay, you're okay' as the ideal position and says reaching it requires a conscious effort at self-care. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=194) [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=202)) - Trinity suggests that people who seem kindest or most cheerful may be the ones carrying the most pain or need. ([00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=9) [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=18) [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=23)) - Trinity says clearing her own mind has let her keep helping the people around her. ([03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=213)) **Keeping yourself okay while helping others** ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=194) [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=229) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=254) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=265)) 1. Make an effort to acknowledge and express emotions, including bad ones like doubt, sadness, regret and anxiety. 2. Take time in your day to breathe: in through the nose, hold a few seconds, out through the mouth. 3. Do meditation or a calming activity when possible, such as jogging, a long bath or listening to music alone. **Lessons** - Trinity advises helpers not to let other people's circumstances and situations consume them. ([00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29) [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29)) - Trinity warns that suppressing bad emotions only adds to the tension building up inside, so they should be acknowledged and expressed. ([03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=229)) - Trinity says small self-care habits are little but very important for staying motivated to keep going. ([04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=265) [04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=279)) - Trinity closes with a quote from an author she calls Dadinsky: be there for others, but never leave yourself behind. ([04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=293) [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=297)) **Who it's for:** Students, student leaders and anyone who regularly supports friends or peers, and who wants a simple framework and practical habits for looking after themselves while helping others. **Facts stated in the episode** - Thomas Anthony Harris, a psychiatrist and author, wrote the book 'I'm Okay, You're Okay', which discusses four life positions. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116)) - Trinity closes with a quote she attributes to an author who goes by Dadinsky: 'Be there for others, but never leave yourself behind.' ([04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=293)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is self-negation?** A: Trinity defines self-negation as the denial of evidence and existence of oneself. She describes it as helping others until you lose all motivation and sense of self and become numb to your surroundings, which she calls extremely dangerous. ([01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=77)) **Q: What are the four life positions in I'm OK, You're OK?** A: Trinity cites Thomas Anthony Harris's four positions: I'm not okay, you're not okay; I'm not okay, you're okay; I'm okay, you're not okay; and I'm okay, you're okay. She explains each through the example of helping a friend named Sam. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116) [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=138) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=155) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=166) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=183)) **Q: How can I help a struggling friend without taking on their pain?** A: Trinity describes the 'I'm okay, you're not okay' position: acknowledging the friend is not okay while staying okay yourself and helping them reach the point where they feel okay. She says the ideal is working through it together so both come out stronger. ([02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=166) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=183)) **Q: What self-care practices does Trinity Nel recommend?** A: She recommends three things. Acknowledge and express your emotions, including the bad ones. Take time to breathe in through the nose, hold, and out through the mouth. Do meditation or a calming activity such as jogging, a long bath or listening to music alone. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=194) [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=229) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=254) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=265)) **Q: What happens if you get too consumed by other people's problems?** A: Trinity says you can lose concern for yourself. She says it can affect your mental, emotional and physical health to the point of needing professional intervention or medication, which she says is nothing to be ashamed of but should be prevented where possible. ([01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=92) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=108)) **Q: What advice was Trinity Nel given as a student leader?** A: She says the first piece of advice she received was not to let other people's circumstances and situations consume her. Before that advice, she had often become numb to her emotions and ignored what her body was telling her. ([00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29) [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=39)) **Q: Why shouldn't I suppress negative emotions?** A: Trinity says admitting to bad emotions such as doubt, sadness, regret and anxiety isn't always pleasant. However, she says suppressing them only adds to the tension building up inside. ([03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=229)) ### Passage: A student leader's slide into self-negation [00:29-01:54, 233 words] Note (AI): Trinity describes from her own experience how helping others can erode the helper's own health, and defines self-negation. Trinity Nel, guest [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29): > The first piece of advice I was given when I became a student leader was to not let other people's circumstances and situations consume me. Before I was given this advice, I found myself on multiple occasions becoming numb to my emotions and ignoring what my body was telling me, because all I had was a voice in the back of my mind saying, "Oh, she might relapse if I don't check up on her every ten minutes," or He's going through a lot right now, so don't show any form of emotion or he might feel offended. This way of thinking is a frequent occurrence to most leaders and people who just generally want to be there for others. But we need to prevent ourselves from falling deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole of self-negation. Self-negation is the denial of evidence and existence of oneself. Helping others to the point where you've lost all motivation, all sense of self, and you have become numb to your surroundings is extremely dangerous. You can become so consumed by what everyone else is going through that you lose concern for yourself. This will affect your mental, emotional, and physical health to such an extent that you may need professional intervention or medication. This, of course, is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, but we want to prevent this from happening as much as possible. ### Passage: The four life positions applied to helping [01:56-03:13, 181 words] Note (AI): Trinity explains Harris's four life positions through the example of helping a friend named Sam. Trinity Nel, guest [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116): > Thomas Anthony Harris, a psychiatrist and author, wrote a book entitled I'm Okay, You're Okay, and it discusses the four life positions. I'm not okay, you're not okay. I'm not okay, you're okay. I'm okay, you're not okay. And I'm okay, you're okay. In the context of helping others, I'm not okay, you're not okay, refers to a situation where Sam, for example, is going through a tough time. So I internalize Sam's problems, and because of this, I suffer as well. I'm not okay, you're okay, is when I have helped Sam through a tough spot, and now Sam is okay, but I have taken Sam's pain and suffering and placed it upon myself. I'm okay, you're not okay, is when I acknowledge that Sam is not okay, but I'm okay, and I will stay okay while helping Sam reach the point where Sam feels okay. And lastly, I'm okay, you're okay. This is where Sam has gone through a rough time, but together, Sam and I work through the situation and come out as stronger and more positive people. ### Passage: Three practical self-care habits [03:14-04:46, 225 words] Note (AI): Trinity defines self-care and gives three concrete practices that let a helper stay okay while supporting others. Trinity Nel, guest [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=194): > In order to reach this ideal position of I'm okay, you're okay, we need to make a conscious effort to take care of ourselves. Self-care is taking the time to attend to our basic physical, mental, and emotional needs. In other words, recharge our batteries. As a student leader, I have found that allowing myself to clear my mind has allowed me to continue to help the people around me who need it. Some of the things we can do to keep ourselves feeling okay are, number one, Making an effort to acknowledge and express our emotions. This is difficult, of course, because one can easily accept the feeling of good emotions such as joy and excitement, but admitting to the bad emotions such as doubt, sadness, regret, and anxiety isn't always pleasant, but suppressing these emotions will only add to the tension building up inside. Number two, taking the time out of your day to just breathe. In through the nose, hold for a couple of seconds, and out through the mouth. And finally, doing any form of meditation or calming activity whenever possible. This could be going for a jog, taking a long bath, or even sitting alone in your room and listening to music. These are all little but very important things that we should do to motivate ourselves to keep going. ### Quotes > "The ones who take care of everyone else's needs are the ones who need it most," >, Trinity Nel, guest · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=18) > "the people who smile a lot may be the ones who cry when no one is around." >, Trinity Nel, guest · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=23) > "we need to prevent ourselves from falling deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole of self-negation." >, Trinity Nel, guest · [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=70) > "This, of course, is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of," >, Trinity Nel, guest · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=108) > "Self-care is taking the time to attend to our basic physical, mental, and emotional needs. In other words, recharge our batteries." >, Trinity Nel, guest · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=202) > "Be there for others, but never leave yourself behind." >, Trinity Nel, guest · [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=297) ### Claims > "They say the people who exhibit the most kindness have experienced a lot of pain. The ones who act like they don't need love are the ones who need it more." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=9) > "The first piece of advice I was given when I became a student leader was to not let other people's circumstances and situations consume me." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Student leadership · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=29) > "Before I was given this advice, I found myself on multiple occasions becoming numb to my emotions and ignoring what my body was telling me," >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Student leadership · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=39) > "This way of thinking is a frequent occurrence to most leaders and people who just generally want to be there for others. But we need to prevent ourselves from falling deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole of self-negation." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Risks of self-negation · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=63) > "Self-negation is the denial of evidence and existence of oneself. Helping others to the point where you've lost all motivation, all sense of self, and you have become numb to your surroundings is extremely dangerous." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Risks of self-negation · [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=77) > "You can become so consumed by what everyone else is going through that you lose concern for yourself. This will affect your mental, emotional, and physical health to such an extent that you may need professional intervention or medication." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Risks of self-negation · [01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=92) > "This, of course, is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, but we want to prevent this from happening as much as possible." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Risks of self-negation · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=108) > "Thomas Anthony Harris, a psychiatrist and author, wrote a book entitled I'm Okay, You're Okay, and it discusses the four life positions." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Four life positions · [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=116) > "In the context of helping others, I'm not okay, you're not okay, refers to a situation where Sam, for example, is going through a tough time. So I internalize Sam's problems, and because of this, I suffer as well." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Four life positions · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=138) > "I'm not okay, you're okay, is when I have helped Sam through a tough spot, and now Sam is okay, but I have taken Sam's pain and suffering and placed it upon myself." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Four life positions · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=155) > "I'm okay, you're not okay, is when I acknowledge that Sam is not okay, but I'm okay, and I will stay okay while helping Sam reach the point where Sam feels okay." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Four life positions · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=166) > "This is where Sam has gone through a rough time, but together, Sam and I work through the situation and come out as stronger and more positive people." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Four life positions · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=183) > "In order to reach this ideal position of I'm okay, you're okay, we need to make a conscious effort to take care of ourselves. Self-care is taking the time to attend to our basic physical, mental, and emotional needs." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=194) > "As a student leader, I have found that allowing myself to clear my mind has allowed me to continue to help the people around me who need it." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Student leadership · [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=213) > "Making an effort to acknowledge and express our emotions. This is difficult, of course, because one can easily accept the feeling of good emotions such as joy and excitement, but admitting to the bad emotions such as doubt, sadness, regret, and anxiety isn't always pleasant, but suppressing these emotions will only add to the tension building up inside." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Acknowledging emotions · [03:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=229) > "Number two, taking the time out of your day to just breathe. In through the nose, hold for a couple of seconds, and out through the mouth." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=254) > "And finally, doing any form of meditation or calming activity whenever possible. This could be going for a jog, taking a long bath, or even sitting alone in your room and listening to music." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=265) > "These are all little but very important things that we should do to motivate ourselves to keep going." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [04:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=279) > "by an author who goes by Dadinsky, and it reads, Be there for others, but never leave yourself behind." >, Trinity Nel, guest · topic: Self-care for helpers · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988449_high.mp3#t=293) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) An Edu Inc TED-Ed talk - Trinity Nel Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Exams 2021 Term 2 - how to prepare - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-07-06-exams-2021-term-2-how-to/ - Date: 2020-07-06 (as at 2020-07-06) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Term 2 exam logistics, Assessment from home, Exam preparation mindset, Managing exam stress, Habits of unsuccessful people, Goals and perseverance - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988454 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Headmaster Gershom Aitchison briefs Grade 4 to 11 learners on the Term 2 exams and assessments, which will be written from home. He explains how exam days and study days will run, including revision sessions, setup checks, open- and closed-book assessment and support for scribes and readers. He then gives five 'recognize' points on how to think about exams and stress. After that he goes through ten bad habits of unsuccessful people from a Daily Maverick article and restates them as positive habits. S0 introduces the episode and asks for a closing thought. Aitchison ends by telling learners they have put in more work than they realise. **Key ideas** - Aitchison says the teachers are using home learning to make assessment more meaningful, so it moves away from memorising and regurgitating information. ([01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=74) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=248) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=269)) - Aitchison describes exam days as starting with active revision with the teacher at 7:30, followed by setup time to check computers and workspaces. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=100) [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=104) [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=130) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=142)) - Aitchison argues that some stress and anxiety before exams is appropriate, but being overstressed signals that a learner is not well prepared or in control. ([05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=340) [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=351) [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=359)) - Aitchison expects every exam to contain one or two unfamiliar questions. He advises answering the questions you know first to bank marks and build confidence. ([06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=389) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=406)) - Aitchison cites the 'social reality' effect: announcing a goal can reduce the motivation to achieve it. He advises writing goals down but keeping them private. ([07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=466) [08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=483) [08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=486)) - Aitchison reframes the article's ten bad habits as positive ones: focus, positivity, getting it done, trusting yourself, kindness and perseverance. ([07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=445) [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=522) [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548) [09:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=562) [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=632) [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=648)) **Recognize before the exams** ([05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=300) [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=312) [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=326) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=340) [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=359) [06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=372) [06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=389) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=406)) 1. Recognize that the exam is an opportunity to demonstrate your skills, knowledge and hard work. 2. Recognize that effort on study notes now saves summarizing at the end of the year. 3. Recognize that feeling anxious and stressed is appropriate because the exams matter. 4. Recognize when you are overstressed; set goals, a timetable, exercise, sleep, eat well and ask for help. 5. Recognize that some questions will be unknown; answer the ones you know first. **Lessons** - Aitchison advises switching on the computer first thing on exam mornings so updates finish and the internet can be checked before the exam. ([03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=196)) - Aitchison's response to feeling overstressed: set goals and a study timetable, exercise daily, sleep and eat well, and ask peers, parents or teachers for help. ([06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=372)) - According to Aitchison, the only way to beat procrastination is to get the work done, using goals and a study timetable to stay in control. ([09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548) [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548)) - Aitchison warns against easing off after one or two good exams; learners should keep the momentum going. ([09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=599) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=606)) - Aitchison says kindness to others matters most under stress, and being kind to others makes you more likely to be kind to yourself. ([10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=632)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc learners in Grades 4 to 11 and their parents preparing for Term 2 exams and assessments written from home, and anyone wanting practical advice on exam stress, study habits and goal setting. **Facts stated in the episode** - Grade 12s write prelims in September after the August holidays rather than Term 2 exams. ([00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=51)) - Exam-day active revision with the teacher starts at 7:30. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=104)) - Mrs. Aitchison scheduled 15 minutes of setup time before each exam. ([02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=130)) - Some assessments will be open book and some closed book. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=142)) - The ten bad habits of unsuccessful people came from an article in the Daily Maverick. ([07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=431)) - Aitchison repeats the common comment that the schooling system is 120 years out of date. ([04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=248) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=248)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Do Grade 12s write exams in Term 2 at Edu Inc?** A: No. Aitchison says Grade 12s do not write exams or assessments at this point. They write prelims in September after the August holidays. ([00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=51)) **Q: What happens on an exam day when writing from home?** A: Learners report to class at 7:30 for active revision with their teacher. There is then setup time to check computers and show a clear workspace, followed by the exam or assessment and submission. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=100) [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=104) [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=130) [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=142)) **Q: What do learners do on days without an exam?** A: Aitchison says those are study days. Learners do not have to be in class, but teachers are available by appointment. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=170)) **Q: Is it normal to feel stressed before exams?** A: Aitchison says feeling anxious and stressed is appropriate because the exams are important to you. Being overstressed, however, means you are not well prepared or in control. ([05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=340) [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=359)) **Q: What should I do about exam questions I don't know?** A: Aitchison says there will always be one or two unfamiliar questions. Do the questions you know first to bank marks and build confidence. ([06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=389) [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=406)) **Q: Should I tell people about my study goals?** A: Aitchison cites the 'social reality' effect: telling someone your goal can make the mind feel it is already done and reduce motivation. Write goals down but keep them private. ([07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=466) [08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=483)) **Q: How do I overcome procrastination while studying?** A: Aitchison says the only way is to get it done, using goals and a study timetable to demonstrate control. ([09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548)) **Q: How are students with scribes or readers accommodated in home exams?** A: They start the exam with their class while instructions are given, then move to their scribe or reader, where the exam is done separately and individually. ([03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=219)) ### Passage: How exam and assessment days will run from home [01:40-03:55, 486 words] Note (AI): Sets out the daily schedule: 7:30 active revision, setup time and workspace checks, submission, study days and arrangements for scribes and readers. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=100): > So if you have an exam or an assessment on a day, according to your timetable, you'll be reporting to your class at 7:30 to do a revision time, and that revision time will be active revision with your teacher. It's not going to be you sitting at home reading over or going through your work. I don't believe that's an active studying process. The whole point of that is to get your head focused in the game, any last little questions you may have, and then you'll take a break, come back to class, and start with the exam preparation and write in the exam or the assessment. So Mrs. Aitchison has put in 15 minutes of setup time, and that setup time is just to knock out some of the gremlins in the work, make sure the computers are all working, and more importantly, that you can show the teachers who are invigilating you that your workspace is clear of any notes or wall at home has not got all your study notes pinned up on it to assist you. Some of the assessment is going to be open book, but some of it is going to be closed book. So that's what the setup time is going to be used for. Then you're going to write your exam, and when you're finished, you'll be finished with the school day once you have uploaded the assessment or finished giving the teachers the assessment results that they're looking for. If you do not have an assessment scheduled for the day, that is an exam preparation day for you. It's a study day. You do not have to be in class, although I'm sure your teachers will be accessible to you if you need them by appointment. I think it's very important that you make sure your computer is turned on and working early in the morning. You know, Windows, typical thing of trying to update on a day when you have an exam, and it'll be 150 updates and two hours later. So make sure you set, you switched your computer on first thing in the morning, let it update, let it get working, check that the internet is working correctly and things like that too. It's very important to follow the teacher's instructions on how to submit the work on time and the work that you've done and the assessment work that you've done. It might be that they want you to take pictures of it or put it in your shared folder, I'm not sure. The teachers will give you that information. And then students with accommodations for scribes and readers, you will start your exam with your class while you're getting all the instructions, et cetera, and then you'll move over to your scribe or reader, and that'll be done separately and individually as well. So that's all the housekeeping for now. ### Passage: The five things to recognize before exams [05:00-07:02, 417 words] Note (AI): The headmaster's structured advice on how to see exams, how to handle normal and excessive stress, and how to approach unknown questions. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=300): > So in preparing for the assessment or exams that are coming up, I'm going to use the word recognize a lot in the next few points, and I'd like you to make some notes on this, because if you can recognize these points, I think you're going to be in a good place. So the first thing is recognize that the assessment and exam is an opportunity for you as a student to demonstrate your skills and knowledge and all the hard work that you've done since the beginning of the year, because you have put a lot of hard work in. The second thing is recognize that the effort you put in now into your study notes to your proof of preparation is going to help you at the end of the year so that you don't have to do a whole year's worth of summarizing and note-taking and things like that. The third thing is recognize that you are going to feel anxious and that you're going to feel stressed. It is appropriate. These are exams. They're assessments, and it tells me that they're important to you. Because they're important, you're going to feel stressed about it and anxious because you want to achieve well and you want to work well in these exams and assessment. The fourth thing is recognize when you are overstressed and you are overanxious, because that means that you're not well prepared and that you're not in control. And what you can do if you're feeling overstressed and anxious is to set your goals for your exams and assessments, set up a study timetable so that you can control of your time, exercise daily, sleep well, eat well and healthily, and ask for help from your peers or parents or teachers, depending on the help that you might need. The fifth thing is recognize that there are always going to be questions in the exam that you don't know the answer to. It's going to be one or two questions that you've never seen before and that you don't know. That is part of the process, and that's what cognitive three level application questions are all about. Recognize also that there are going to be a lot of questions that you do know the answers to, and those are the ones that you should do first, and bank your marks, and build your confidence, and feel comfortable with the exam. This is your opportunity to demonstrate your skills and knowledge. ### Passage: Bad habits one to five: distraction to procrastination [07:03-09:21, 427 words] Note (AI): Covers the first five habits from the Daily Maverick article, including the 'social reality' point about keeping goals private. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=423): > And then Mrs. Aitchison sent a very interesting article through, and it's a little bit different from the way that we normally approach things, in that it's about the ten bad habits of unsuccessful people, and it was in the Daily Maverick today. The author speaks about ten bad habits that he has recognized in people, and obviously there is the flip side of it, which we'll discuss too. So the first bad habit is people who are always distracted. In other words, people who are incapable of settling down and focusing for a period of time are an important task in getting the job done. The second one is people only talking the talk. In other words, they will tell everybody what they're planning on doing and what their goals are, but not actually setting down and actually doing the work. When you tell someone your goal and they acknowledge it, psychologists have found that it's called a social reality. The mind is kind of tricked into feeling that it's already done, and then because you felt that satisfaction, you're less motivated to do the actual hard work that is necessary. So when setting your goals and doing what you want to do, write them down because that's your contract with yourself, but keep them private and work towards them diligently. The third thing is spending time with the wrong people. In other words, people who are distracting you from what's important to you, people who may be negative, people who do not have your best interests at heart either, people who have their own agendas. The fourth thing is always focusing on the negative. There is a lot of things to be negative about all the time, and even more so now during COVID. But there are a lot of things to be really positive about too. I think the easiest way to make sure that we stay positive is when having a negative thought is just to recognize it and put it aside and try and find something positive to be appreciative of. Something that we can demonstrate or feel gratitude towards. The fifth thing is procrastinating. We all like to procrastinate. Find things to do instead of getting on with the real job. And I think, as we've discussed in study skills always, the only way to really get over procrastination is to get it done. And we set up a framework of getting the job done by creating our goals, setting up our study timetable, et cetera, et cetera, and demonstrating control. ### Passage: Bad habits six to ten and a summary [09:22-11:46, 422 words] Note (AI): Finishes the list (trust yourself, laziness, curiosity, kindness, giving up) and restates all ten as positive habits. Gershom Aitchison, host [09:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=562): > And number six, he says, not listening to other people. He says that being a good listener is an important part of you understanding people and feeling empathetic, but it also means that you need to learn to trust yourself. You don't have to listen to other people's advice, other people's negativity. Learn to trust your own ideas on where you want to go. The seventh thing is giving in to laziness. Often when we start out with something that's exciting and novel and new, we give it a lot of energy, and once the momentum gets going, we then lie back and don't get on with the work. So once you've got the job going, once you've got into what you need to do, especially after one or two good exams, keep the momentum going. Don't give in to your laziness after the initial success. The eighth thing he speaks about is not being curious. In other words, not enjoying what you're studying, not enjoying the opportunities of learning and what that actually brings to you. The ninth thing is not being a nice person. If you don't know what a nice person is, it's very likely that you're the jerk and not the other people. Being nice and kind to people is important, especially when we're feeling stressed and anxious, we often lash out. It also means that when you're kind to other people, you're more likely to be kind to yourself as well. And the last thing he says is people who give up. Everything is going to be tough. Often failure is in our paths. Being able to get up and persevere is very, very important in that process. So those are just a few hints. I'm going to go through them very quickly as a summary. Stay focused on the task. Keep your goals private, but write them down. Focus on the positive. Get it done. Trust yourself. Work hard. Be curious and enjoy your studying and learning. Be nice to the people around you and yourself, and have perseverance. Perseverance is very, very important. So that's my advice to all of you on how to prepare for assessment, how to look out for what's important, and what I'd like to say is enjoy this time. If you study well and you work hard, you're preparing yourself well for the end of the year, and there's a great feeling of gratification and a sense of doing a good job when you have walked out of those exams. ### Quotes > "it's often commented that the current schooling system is outdated, it's 120 years out of date," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=248) > "Because they're important, you're going to feel stressed about it and anxious because you want to achieve well" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=351) > "write them down because that's your contract with yourself, but keep them private and work towards them diligently." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=486) > "the only way to really get over procrastination is to get it done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548) > "Don't give in to your laziness after the initial success." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=606) > "If you don't know what a nice person is, it's very likely that you're the jerk and not the other people." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=626) > "Be nice to the people around you and yourself, and have perseverance. Perseverance is very, very important." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=676) > "Just because we've been doing schooling from home doesn't mean we haven't been working hard." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=719) > "So my final word to all of you is you've got this. Let's get it done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=736) ### Claims > "Grade twelves do not write exams or assessment at this point. They will be writing prelims when they come back in September after the August holidays." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 2 exam logistics · [00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=51) > "I'm using the word assessment and exam interdependently here because the teachers are using this as an opportunity to change what assessment might look and feel like for you as students to be a little bit more meaningful while we do the studying from home and the exams from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment from home · [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=74) > "you'll be reporting to your class at 7:30 to do a revision time, and that revision time will be active revision with your teacher. It's not going to be you sitting at home reading over or going through your work. I don't believe that's an active studying process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 2 exam logistics · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=104) > "So Mrs. Aitchison has put in 15 minutes of setup time, and that setup time is just to knock out some of the gremlins in the work, make sure the computers are all working," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 2 exam logistics · [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=130) > "you can show the teachers who are invigilating you that your workspace is clear of any notes or wall at home has not got all your study notes pinned up on it to assist you. Some of the assessment is going to be open book, but some of it is going to be closed book." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment from home · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=142) > "If you do not have an assessment scheduled for the day, that is an exam preparation day for you. It's a study day. You do not have to be in class, although I'm sure your teachers will be accessible to you if you need them by appointment." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 2 exam logistics · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=170) > "So make sure you set, you switched your computer on first thing in the morning, let it update, let it get working, check that the internet is working correctly and things like that too." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment from home · [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=196) > "students with accommodations for scribes and readers, you will start your exam with your class while you're getting all the instructions, et cetera, and then you'll move over to your scribe or reader, and that'll be done separately and individually as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term 2 exam logistics · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=219) > "So given that schooling is taking place at home and the exams and assessments is taking place at home, that's all going to look very different." >, Unidentified speaker, host · topic: Assessment from home · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=235) > "it's often commented that the current schooling system is outdated, it's 120 years out of date, and that a lot of things need to change to keep up to date with what's going on and to prepare our students adequately for the real world, as it were." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment from home · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=248) > "traditionally, assessment is about memorizing a whole lot of information and facts and skills, and then regurgitating that for cognitive level one and two, and then being able to apply those skills and that knowledge for cognitive level three kind of questions." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment from home · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=269) > "the first thing is recognize that the assessment and exam is an opportunity for you as a student to demonstrate your skills and knowledge and all the hard work that you've done since the beginning of the year," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam preparation mindset · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=312) > "The second thing is recognize that the effort you put in now into your study notes to your proof of preparation is going to help you at the end of the year so that you don't have to do a whole year's worth of summarizing and note-taking and things like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam preparation mindset · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=326) > "The third thing is recognize that you are going to feel anxious and that you're going to feel stressed. It is appropriate. These are exams. They're assessments, and it tells me that they're important to you." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Managing exam stress · [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=340) > "The fourth thing is recognize when you are overstressed and you are overanxious, because that means that you're not well prepared and that you're not in control." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Managing exam stress · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=359) > "set your goals for your exams and assessments, set up a study timetable so that you can control of your time, exercise daily, sleep well, eat well and healthily, and ask for help from your peers or parents or teachers, depending on the help that you might need." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Managing exam stress · [06:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=372) > "The fifth thing is recognize that there are always going to be questions in the exam that you don't know the answer to. It's going to be one or two questions that you've never seen before and that you don't know." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam preparation mindset · [06:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=389) > "Recognize also that there are going to be a lot of questions that you do know the answers to, and those are the ones that you should do first, and bank your marks, and build your confidence, and feel comfortable with the exam." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam preparation mindset · [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=406) > "it's about the ten bad habits of unsuccessful people, and it was in the Daily Maverick today." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=431) > "So the first bad habit is people who are always distracted. In other words, people who are incapable of settling down and focusing for a period of time are an important task in getting the job done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=445) > "When you tell someone your goal and they acknowledge it, psychologists have found that it's called a social reality. The mind is kind of tricked into feeling that it's already done, and then because you felt that satisfaction, you're less motivated to do the actual hard work that is necessary." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Goals and perseverance · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=466) > "So when setting your goals and doing what you want to do, write them down because that's your contract with yourself, but keep them private and work towards them diligently." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Goals and perseverance · [08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=483) > "The third thing is spending time with the wrong people. In other words, people who are distracting you from what's important to you, people who may be negative, people who do not have your best interests at heart either, people who have their own agendas." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=493) > "I think the easiest way to make sure that we stay positive is when having a negative thought is just to recognize it and put it aside and try and find something positive to be appreciative of." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=522) > "the only way to really get over procrastination is to get it done. And we set up a framework of getting the job done by creating our goals, setting up our study timetable, et cetera, et cetera, and demonstrating control." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=548) > "You don't have to listen to other people's advice, other people's negativity. Learn to trust your own ideas on where you want to go." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=577) > "So once you've got the job going, once you've got into what you need to do, especially after one or two good exams, keep the momentum going. Don't give in to your laziness after the initial success." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Goals and perseverance · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=599) > "Being nice and kind to people is important, especially when we're feeling stressed and anxious, we often lash out. It also means that when you're kind to other people, you're more likely to be kind to yourself as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Habits of unsuccessful people · [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=632) > "Everything is going to be tough. Often failure is in our paths. Being able to get up and persevere is very, very important in that process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Goals and perseverance · [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=648) > "I think we all underestimate how much work we've put in since the beginning of the year, especially during lockdown. Just because we've been doing schooling from home doesn't mean we haven't been working hard." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Exam preparation mindset · [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988454_high.mp3#t=713) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) 10 Habits of UNsuccessful people Headmaster Gershom Aitchison The focus today is on the important Term 2 exams and assessments and how to prepare. 10 Habits of UN successful people · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Matrics! (and Parents of Matrics) Pay close attention please - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-06-08-matrics-and-parents-of-matrics-pay/ - Date: 2020-06-08 (as at 2020-06-08) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Matric exam timetable, School breaks and rest, Assessment session format, Block teaching for matrics, COVID back-to-campus regulations, Planning amid uncertainty - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988455 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Headmaster Gershom Aitchison and Executive Head Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, brief matrics and parents on the calendar for the rest of 2020 under COVID-19. Jax explains that the Youth Day weekend and midterm break stay intact with no holiday work, describes a term-two assessment session for grades 4 to 11, and outlines back-to-campus rules. Gershom reads from the IEB CEO's letter to matrics, then sets out block teaching from 13 July, the August break, prelims from 7 September, valediction on 2 October and finals from 19 October. He stresses that the dates are a draft that may change. **Key ideas** - Jax says Edu Inc will not shorten its long weekend or midterm break and will set no extra work over them, because pupils and teachers need rest and the curriculum is on track. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=21) [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=69) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=94) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=99)) - Jax describes the term-two assessment session as short assessments and project work for younger grades, while grades 10 and 11 still write timed exams as training. ([00:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=57) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=125) [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=136)) - Gershom argues block teaching for matrics from 13 July gives focus on the remaining work and limits COVID risk by keeping fewer people on campus. ([05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=304) [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=319) [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=326) [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=341)) - Gershom wants a genuine rest: tools down for the first two weeks of August, with an optional winter school before prelims. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=390) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=398) [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=404)) - Gershom stresses that the matric timetable is a draft based on IEB and Department of Education information and could change. ([07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=423) [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=578) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=587)) - Jax says back-to-campus plans will use colour-coded cohorts and that parents must follow the plan exactly because DBE inspections check compliance. ([11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=677) [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=696) [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=763) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=790)) - Gershom, reading the IEB CEO's letter, urges matrics to focus on skills and knowledge and on what they can control. ([02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=154) [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=237) [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=247)) **Lessons** - Gershom advises matric students to book time with teachers during study leave and the finals, especially if they hit a wall in their studying. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=539)) - Jax asks parents to stick to the prescribed back-to-campus rules even if some seem cumbersome, and to report any difficulties so the school can help. ([11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=677) [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=763) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=790)) - Gershom and Jax treat rest as part of the plan: breaks are kept and tools are down so pupils and teachers can recharge. ([01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=94) [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=390) [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=824)) - The IEB letter Gershom reads advises matrics to avoid worrying about things outside their control and to put their energy into what they can manage. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=247)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc matric students and their parents who need the 2020 dates for block teaching, prelims, valediction and finals. It is also for parents of grades 4 to 11 who want to know about the breaks, the assessment session and plans for returning to campus. **Facts stated in the episode** - Assessments for grades 4 to 11 and matric block teaching begin on 13 July. ([01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=83) [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=319)) - The week-long midterm break starts on 27 June. ([13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=824)) - Matric prelims run from 7 to 22 September, moved from an original 1 September start. ([07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=423) [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=477)) - The LO CAT Part B for grade 12 falls on 9 September. ([07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=455)) - The matric valediction ceremony is planned for Friday 2 October. ([08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=501)) - Edu Inc matric finals run from 19 October to 25 November on the draft timetable. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=527)) - Jax reports a minimum of two to three regulation amendments per week over four weeks. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=737)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is Edu Inc shortening the June long weekend or midterm break to catch up?** A: No. Jax says the Youth Day long weekend and the midterm break go ahead as planned, and pupils get no additional work over them, because the school has not lost teaching time. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=21) [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=69) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=94)) **Q: What will term-two exams look like for grades 4 to 11 at Edu Inc?** A: Jax says it is an assessment session starting 13 July: short, small assessments and project work for younger grades, building marks for the term-two report. Grades 10 and 11 still write exams under timed conditions. ([01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=83) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=125) [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=136)) **Q: When do Edu Inc matrics return to campus and why block teaching?** A: Gershom says matrics return on 13 July for block teaching for the last three weeks of term. It allows focus on the work and limits COVID risk by keeping fewer students and teachers on campus. ([05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=319) [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=326) [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=341)) **Q: When are the Edu Inc matric prelims in 2020?** A: Gershom says prelims were moved from 1 September to 7 September, following the IEB draft schedule, and end on 22 September. They include the LO CAT Part B on 9 September and the life science practical. ([07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=423) [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=455) [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=477)) **Q: When do the 2020 matric finals start and end for Edu Inc students?** A: On the draft IEB and government timetable, Gershom says Edu Inc students write their first final on 19 October and currently finish on 25 November. He warns that the timetable may change. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=527) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=587)) **Q: Should matrics study over the August holidays?** A: Gershom says the first two weeks of August are tools down for a rest. The last two weeks offer an optional winter school with block teaching. Outside class, students should be studying for prelims. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=390) [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=404)) **Q: How will Edu Inc bring pupils back onto campus under COVID rules?** A: Jax says children will return in colour-coded cohorts, based on the permitted grades, the percentage of people allowed and space for social distancing. Parents must follow the plan exactly because the DBE inspects compliance. ([11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=696) [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=763) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=790)) **Q: Why hasn't the school sent parents the back-to-school details yet?** A: Jax says the regulations have changed two to three times a week over the last four weeks. The school does not want to pass that stress on, and will communicate the plan closer to the time. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=737)) ### Passage: Breaks kept intact and the new assessment session [00:57-02:26, 294 words] Note (AI): Explains why Edu Inc keeps its long weekend and midterm break, sets no holiday work, and how grades 4 to 11 will be assessed this term. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [00:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=57): > Well, there's been quite a lot of chatter that people will have been hearing about kids going back to school and shortened holidays. Many of the school's year plans have been altered to catch up teaching days. Luckily, Edu Inc's not in this position at all, so our youth day long weekend that's happening next week will go ahead as planned, as will the midterm break. We will not be shortening either of those because there is no need to be doing that. A week after the midterm break, we'll be heading into exams, and those are due to begin on the 13th of July. Not only will we not be shortening these breaks, we have also decided that the children will not be getting any additional work over these breaks because they are in desperate need of a rest, as are their teachers, and there's absolutely no need for them to be working during this time because they are so well on track and the teachers are so well on top of their curriculum at this point. You'll be hearing a lot of talk about an assessment session as opposed to an exam session this time around for the grade fours to the elevens. For many of the grades, it's not going to look like a traditional exam session, especially for the younger grades. What we're going to be seeing is a lot of short, small assessments, some project work, and out of all of that, there'll be an accumulation of marks that go for the term two report. With the older grades, with your FETs, the tens and elevens in particular, we will still be seeing, exams under timed conditions because that's part of the training stage that they're in at this point. ### Passage: Reading the IEB CEO's letter to matrics [02:34-05:03, 449 words] Note (AI): Shares the IEB's message to matrics on focusing on what they can control, with Gershom's view that it captures how students feel. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=154): > I'd like to start by just reading something out of a letter that Anne Oberhauser, the CEO of the IEB, sent to the Matrix in the last week. Because I think even though it is aimed at the Matrix, I think all students should hear the message from the IEB examinations board. In the words of Charles Dickens, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity. It was the season of light, it was the season of darkness. In truth, we've all experienced emotional highs followed by deep lows. We have been completely rational and logical at some times and then completely irrational at other times. On occasions, we have believed the world to be normal, and we have taken school seriously. At other times, we have wondered how we can be worried about a maths test or whether there are sanitizers at school when we see death, poverty, and despair around us. In truth, never in my lifetime have I seen the development of emotional maturity, which takes years and learning to balance careful thinking against what appears to be insanity in politics and society, being concentrated into such a short space of time, a couple of months or so. The inner sea has come to be seen as a rite of passage. You will never forget your grade twelve year. Of that you can be assured. The key for you from now until the end of the year is to focus on the acquisition of skills and knowledge you require to achieve the qualification to the best of your ability. Avoid worrying unnecessarily about matters that are not in your control, and dedicate your energy to what you can control and manage, so that by the time November comes, you are ready to face the examinations head-on with confidence. Despite the disruptions, you have the support of your family, friends, and broader community, who all want you to do the best you can. I'd like to leave you with the words of Helen Keller. Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. I think those are very, very powerful words and thoughts, and it's not the entire letter, and I encourage parents to go and read it in its entirety, but I think that it pretty much sums up how everybody's feeling at the moment about their exams, especially the metrics, and possibly what's going to be required in preparation for them. ### Passage: Matric plan from June through August [05:04-07:03, 400 words] Note (AI): Sets out block teaching on campus from 13 July, the COVID risk reasoning, and the August rest and winter school arrangement. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=304): > We have two and a half teaching weeks left in June. There's a long weekend, and there is a midterm break at the end of it, starting on the 27th of June. We'll be back to school on the 6th of July for one week, and assessment starts for the grade fours to elevens. And at that point, The thirteenth of July, we are going to have our matrix back on campus for block teaching for the last three weeks of the term. Block teaching has been very successful for us in the past, as witnessed in our winter programs, as it allows an immense focus on the work that needs to be done, and in this case, there are some SBA assessments that need to be done under controlled conditions that will be done at this time as well. It also allows us to manage the risk of COVID for our families, our students, and our teachers by limiting the number of students on campus and the number of teachers on campus at any time. One of my biggest fears is one of my matrix students contracting COVID and not being able to write their preliminary exams or their final exams. Our preparations over the last few weeks in terms of opening, our preparations in terms of getting the metrics back on campus have been focused on that safety. It'll offer the best opportunity to finish off the curriculum, type some loose ends, and be prepared for going into the prelim session of the matric year. On the 31st of July, we break up for the August holidays. It is a long holiday of exactly one month. The whole of August, we will not be at school for grade four to elevens. As the metrics are starting their prelims on the 7th of September, I'm going to say that it's tools down for the first two weeks in August. Nothing gets done. You take a break, and you rest your soul for the next part of the journey. The last two weeks of August have traditionally been our winter school, and we will continue to have the winter school option available, where we will do block teaching as the teachers require or as the students require to revise and prepare for the prelims. But essentially, if you're not in class, you are studying and preparing for those prelim exams. ### Passage: Prelims, valediction and final exam dates [07:03-09:23, 398 words] Note (AI): Gives matric families the full prelim-to-finals calendar and the advice to use teacher time during study leave. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=423): > Originally, our preliminary exams were scheduled to start on the 1st of September, but we have pushed those out by one week based on the revised examination draft schedule that the IEB has put out, and we are going to start our preliminary exams on the 7th of September, which gives us a week at school for revision, for intervention, and for preparation of our students, and if that's not required, it will be a study week for them to be able to prepare for their preliminary exams. Included in the preliminary exam period is going to be the 9th of September, which is the LO CAT Part B, which is the final assessment for the life orientation for grade 12. And on the 16th will be the life science practical, which also forms part of the total assessment plan. Essentially, it's the life science paper three. So in a nutshell, prelims start on the 7th of September, they conclude on the 22nd of September, and include the life orientation CAT Part B and the life science practical. It's followed by a long weekend, and then the grade 12s will come back for one week of school, which will be review of the preliminary exams and any corrections or interventions that need to happen in that space. We are planning to have our valediction ceremony on Friday the 2nd of October, so watch this space. That is always an emotional and touching time and a very important rite of passage for our grade 12s as well. And that leaves two weeks for studying and revision, et cetera, before the metric finals start. On the draft edition of the IEB and government timetable that has been sent out, Edu Inc students write their first final exam on the 19th of October, and currently they will end on the 25th of November. And I would like to remind the students and the parents that even during the study time before the finals and during the final exams, Edu Inc will run its normal school timetable, which means there is time allocated to the grade twelves for classes, and they can schedule some time with their teachers, and I highly recommend they do that, especially if they are hitting a wall or a blank when it comes to some of their studying, or if they're concerned about some revision or something like that. ### Passage: Draft timetables and leading through uncertainty [09:38-11:16, 306 words] Note (AI): Gershom frames the dates as a draft that may change and argues learners are not disadvantaged by the disruption. Gershom Aitchison, host [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=578): > I want to be clear that the plans are based on the current information that IB, ESAS, and the Department of Education are all sharing with us. It is a draft metric final exam timetable, and things can change. This is a very fluid situation, depending on the COVID and the country's reaction to it, what the government says, and what the Department of Education says about it. We are using this as a framework to make sure that our students are safe, that our teachers are safe, and that our parents are safe, and that we can implement the metrics returning to school in a very structured fashion, and that we are not going to have the disruption seen by a lot of metrics last week where schools were open and then they were not. It is very difficult at the moment in South Africa. We thought that with a firm lockdown at level five, that that was the toughest part, but it seems that the toughest part of the lockdown is providing clarity for what it looks like in a time of uncertainty, and the leadership of Edu Inc is doing that with the support of its parents and its teachers and its students, and I have to applaud everybody for the effort they are putting in and the support they are providing us. It has put us in a very, very good position academically for our learners. I do not feel for one moment they are disadvantaged in any way. In fact, I feel that they have learnt and gained a lot of advantage from this, and I look forward to seeing the continued support of our parents, the Edu Inc families, and the students and teachers in implementing our plan right now to get our metrics on campus and ready for their final exams. ### Passage: Plans and rules for returning to campus [11:17-13:30, 403 words] Note (AI): Jax explains colour-coded cohorts, why details are held back amid weekly amendments, and why parents must stick to the plan under DBE inspection. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=677): > So you guys appear to have spent most of the month of May in meetings. With Isasa, talking about the plans to get schools back on campus, what are the considerations in that space, Jax? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [11:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=688): > There are many, many considerations in the space, Gavin, and it is a very complicated process. And our thinking at the moment is that when we do bring children back onto campus, it's going to be in the form of color-coded cohorts, that are based on what grades we are allowed to bring back at that time, what percentage of learners and staff we're allowed on campus at any given time, and what Edu Inc space restrictions can accommodate while we maintain the required social distances. We will send parents information on all the requirements and regulations of getting our kids back to school closer to the time. The reason we haven't sent anything to the parents yet is because we, as in all the independent schools who are navigating this, are being given amendments to the regulations literally on a week-to-week basis. In the last four weeks, we've had a minimum of two to three amendments per week, and we really don't believe that this frustration and the stress of those continued amendments needs to be passed along to the parents or the students or the teachers. We will communicate exactly what the plan will be closer to the time. What I really do need to emphasize to the parents is the importance of sticking to the plan once we have communicated it. All the independent schools are being inspected by the DBE to make sure that we are completely compliant with the health requirements that have been stipulated, and they won't allow us to continue bringing children onto the campus if we have deviated from those requirements in any way. So, for example, children will need to arrive within certain time periods so that we can get all the screenings done. They will have to adhere to certain types of face masks, and regardless of whether we think that certain regulations are overly cumbersome, we have to just stick to what has been prescribed. So really, when the time comes, we are just asking for your continued support by sticking to the plan, and let us know of any challenges that you experience with that particular plan so that we can assist you in resolving those challenges. ### Quotes > "Fortunately for Edu Inc, we have still not yet missed an hour of teaching," >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=21) > "they are in desperate need of a rest, as are their teachers," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=99) > "You will never forget your grade twelve year. Of that you can be assured." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=232) > "Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=272) > "Nothing gets done. You take a break, and you rest your soul for the next part of the journey." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=398) > "the toughest part of the lockdown is providing clarity for what it looks like in a time of uncertainty," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=631) > "I do not feel for one moment they are disadvantaged in any way." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=655) > "we have to just stick to what has been prescribed." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=795) > "it's a time to recharge the batteries and sharpen the saw, as it were." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=833) ### Claims > "Fortunately for Edu Inc, we have still not yet missed an hour of teaching, and everyone is on track with the year's curriculum." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Planning amid uncertainty · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=21) > "Luckily, Edu Inc's not in this position at all, so our youth day long weekend that's happening next week will go ahead as planned, as will the midterm break." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School breaks and rest · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=69) > "A week after the midterm break, we'll be heading into exams, and those are due to begin on the 13th of July." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment session format · [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=83) > "we have also decided that the children will not be getting any additional work over these breaks because they are in desperate need of a rest, as are their teachers," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School breaks and rest · [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=94) > "What we're going to be seeing is a lot of short, small assessments, some project work, and out of all of that, there'll be an accumulation of marks that go for the term two report." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment session format · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=125) > "With the older grades, with your FETs, the tens and elevens in particular, we will still be seeing, exams under timed conditions because that's part of the training stage that they're in at this point." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Assessment session format · [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=136) > "The key for you from now until the end of the year is to focus on the acquisition of skills and knowledge you require to achieve the qualification to the best of your ability." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=237) > "Avoid worrying unnecessarily about matters that are not in your control, and dedicate your energy to what you can control and manage, so that by the time November comes, you are ready to face the examinations head-on with confidence." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=247) > "The thirteenth of July, we are going to have our matrix back on campus for block teaching for the last three weeks of the term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Block teaching for matrics · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=319) > "Block teaching has been very successful for us in the past, as witnessed in our winter programs, as it allows an immense focus on the work that needs to be done," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Block teaching for matrics · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=326) > "It also allows us to manage the risk of COVID for our families, our students, and our teachers by limiting the number of students on campus and the number of teachers on campus at any time." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Block teaching for matrics · [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=341) > "One of my biggest fears is one of my matrix students contracting COVID and not being able to write their preliminary exams or their final exams." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=352) > "As the metrics are starting their prelims on the 7th of September, I'm going to say that it's tools down for the first two weeks in August. Nothing gets done. You take a break, and you rest your soul for the next part of the journey." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School breaks and rest · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=390) > "The last two weeks of August have traditionally been our winter school, and we will continue to have the winter school option available, where we will do block teaching as the teachers require or as the students require to revise and prepare for the prelims." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Block teaching for matrics · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=404) > "Originally, our preliminary exams were scheduled to start on the 1st of September, but we have pushed those out by one week based on the revised examination draft schedule that the IEB has put out," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=423) > "Included in the preliminary exam period is going to be the 9th of September, which is the LO CAT Part B, which is the final assessment for the life orientation for grade 12." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=455) > "So in a nutshell, prelims start on the 7th of September, they conclude on the 22nd of September, and include the life orientation CAT Part B and the life science practical." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=477) > "We are planning to have our valediction ceremony on Friday the 2nd of October, so watch this space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=501) > "Edu Inc students write their first final exam on the 19th of October, and currently they will end on the 25th of November." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=527) > "even during the study time before the finals and during the final exams, Edu Inc will run its normal school timetable, which means there is time allocated to the grade twelves for classes, and they can schedule some time with their teachers, and I highly recommend they do that," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric exam timetable · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=539) > "It is a draft metric final exam timetable, and things can change. This is a very fluid situation, depending on the COVID and the country's reaction to it, what the government says, and what the Department of Education says about it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Planning amid uncertainty · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=587) > "We thought that with a firm lockdown at level five, that that was the toughest part, but it seems that the toughest part of the lockdown is providing clarity for what it looks like in a time of uncertainty," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Planning amid uncertainty · [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=625) > "I do not feel for one moment they are disadvantaged in any way. In fact, I feel that they have learnt and gained a lot of advantage from this," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Planning amid uncertainty · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=655) > "when we do bring children back onto campus, it's going to be in the form of color-coded cohorts, that are based on what grades we are allowed to bring back at that time," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=696) > "In the last four weeks, we've had a minimum of two to three amendments per week, and we really don't believe that this frustration and the stress of those continued amendments needs to be passed along to the parents or the students or the teachers." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=737) > "All the independent schools are being inspected by the DBE to make sure that we are completely compliant with the health requirements that have been stipulated, and they won't allow us to continue bringing children onto the campus if we have deviated from those requirements in any way." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [12:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=763) > "regardless of whether we think that certain regulations are overly cumbersome, we have to just stick to what has been prescribed." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=790) > "followed on the 27th of June by our midterm break, which is a week long, which is tools down for everybody, it's relaxation, it's a time to recharge the batteries and sharpen the saw, as it were." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School breaks and rest · [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=824) > "School holidays start on the 1st of August, and at that point I think everybody's going to be deserving of them, and everybody's going to take a break." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School breaks and rest · [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=854) > "just a reminder to everyone to keep checking in on the school Facebook page. That's where we're going to be posting photos of Edu Inc as we get our school readiness going" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID back-to-campus regulations · [14:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988455_high.mp3#t=862) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Lots of dates and details Gershom and Jax Aitchison (Headmaster and Executive Head) Grab a pen and paper, particularly for Matrics, and stay up-to-date with all the breaks, back-to-campus updates and exams assessment info. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 Certainty, Agility, Flexibility and Dr. Taryn Gray - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-05-27-covid-19-certainty-agility-flexibility-and/ - Date: 2020-05-27 (as at 2020-05-27) - Guest: Dr. Taryn Gray - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: return to campus planning, COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility, comorbidities and asthma risk, influenza vaccination, keeping sick children home, school costs and budget, new timetable and exercise - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988456 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3 ### About the guest: Dr. Taryn Gray - Paediatric Pulmonologist - Paediatric pulmonologist who treats a range of children with asthma, from mild exercise-induced cases to children who land up in ICU every winter on a ventilator. In their own words: > "As a pulmonologist, I treat a range of children with asthma. Some children have got very mild asthma just with exercise-induced symptoms when they play sports, and on the other end of the spectrum, I've got children with asthma that land up in ICU every winter on a ventilator." [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=703) (Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.) ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The hosts of Education Incorporated, an independent school in Fourways, explain that pupils will not return to campus on 1 June. They describe their plans for term three as still in flux, and cover screening, uniform, budget and blended learning. Paediatric pulmonologist Dr. Taryn Gray explains comorbidities and which asthma cases are high risk. She also recommends flu vaccination, says sick children should stay home, and gives a parent's view on sending children back to school. The episode closes with Gershom describing the second-half timetable, which is built around exercise, a longer lunch break and virtual robotics. **Key ideas** - Gershom argues that the school can delay its return to campus because, as a private school, it has leeway. He says teaching and assessment have continued without missing a day. ([00:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=25) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=111) [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=179)) - Both Gershom and Dr. Gray stress that the situation is fluid. They say plans need an open mind and may have to change as case numbers and alert levels shift. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=490) [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=572) [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=580)) - Dr. Gray says children with well-controlled asthma are not considered high risk. Her concern is for severe, uncontrolled asthma, immune compromise, untreated cardiac problems and obesity. ([10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=619) [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=685) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=732)) - Dr. Gray strongly recommends flu vaccination for children. She notes that the Northern Hemisphere saw more paediatric deaths from influenza than from coronavirus. ([12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=761) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=785) [13:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=794)) - Dr. Gray says sick children must stay home, for their own sake and for others. She adds that COVID-19 isolation lasts fourteen days from the date of testing. ([14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=886) [14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=895) [15:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=932)) - Dr. Gray argues that school is often safer for children than home and that South Africa needs children back in school. Children with serious conditions need individual guidance from their doctor. ([16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=979) [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1013) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1059)) - Gershom says the school is keeping extra costs off parents. He rejects expensive PPE offers and asks parents with PPE connections to help. ([05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=356) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=365) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=398)) - Gershom describes a new timetable built around exercise, because he believes sitting at a computer for hours is unhealthy. ([20:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1227) [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1238) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1314)) **Lessons** - Dr. Gray advises parents to vaccinate children against influenza where possible, especially children with asthma, lung or heart disease. ([12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=761) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=810)) - Dr. Gray advises keeping children home when they are sick, rather than sending them to school with fevers, flu or coughs. ([14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=895) [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=960) [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=966)) - Dr. Gray says parents of children with significant underlying illness should decide on attending school individually, with guidance from their paediatrician. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1059)) - Dr. Gray asks parents to go easy on teachers, governing bodies and policymakers when decisions change at short notice. ([19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1144) [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1144)) - Gershom suggests that learning from others who act first helps schools make better decisions. ([03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=199) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=207)) **Who it's for:** Parents of Edu Inc pupils who want to know the school's return-to-campus and timetable plans. Also parents generally who have questions about children, comorbidities, asthma, flu vaccines and COVID-19 risk. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jax says that at alert level three, schools may bring 30% of students and 30% of staff onto campus. ([01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=90)) - Gershom says matric pupils will be on campus for prelims in September and for finals in October and November. ([02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=142)) - Jax says screening 70 children at one minute each would take 70 minutes. ([04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=273)) - Jax says pupils logged a total of 453 hours of online learning through Udemy courses last term. ([23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1410)) - Dr. Gray says countries took about eight weeks after their peak to surge and start subsiding. ([13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=831)) - Dr. Gray says people with COVID-19 must stay home for fourteen days from the time they are tested. ([15:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=932)) - Gershom says the new timetable starts on the first of June. ([25:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1503)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is Edu Inc going back to campus on 1 June 2020?** A: No. Gershom says the Minister's announcement mainly targets government schools and that private schools have leeway. Teaching continues from home in term two, and a return in term three is still being planned. ([00:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=25) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=111)) **Q: Are children with asthma at high risk from COVID-19?** A: Dr. Gray says children with day-to-day asthma who take their medication and are well controlled are not considered high risk. The concern is severe, uncontrolled asthma, such as children with previous ICU admissions. ([10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=619) [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=732)) **Q: What are comorbidities?** A: Dr. Gray describes them as underlying medical conditions you live with. In adults the most common are hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and asthma. ([10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=628)) **Q: Should my child get a flu vaccine during COVID-19?** A: Dr. Gray strongly recommends it where possible, especially for children with asthma, lung or heart disease. She notes that influenza caused more paediatric deaths than coronavirus in the Northern Hemisphere. ([12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=761) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=785) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=810)) **Q: How long should a child with COVID-19 stay home?** A: Dr. Gray says fourteen days from the time they are tested, not from when they receive the result, and longer if symptoms linger. ([15:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=932)) **Q: How long will the COVID-19 surge last in South Africa?** A: Dr. Gray says other countries took about eight weeks to surge and subside after their peak. The early lockdown may mean a slower, longer surge, and the virus may be around for several years before a vaccine arrives. ([13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=831) [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=845) [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=861)) **Q: Is it safe to send healthy children back to school?** A: Dr. Gray says her own healthy young children are at the low-risk end, so she is not fearful. She adds that COVID-19 affects children mildly in most cases and that school is often safer than home. ([16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1013) [17:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1037) [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1096)) **Q: What changes are in Edu Inc's new timetable?** A: Gershom describes a switch of semester subjects, a longer second break for preparing lunch at home, and scheduled exercise slots by grade. Friday assembly is at eight after half an hour of exercise, and the timetable starts on 1 June. ([20:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1227) [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1266) [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1289) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1314) [25:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1503)) ### Passage: What is clear and murky for terms two and three [01:51-03:31, 360 words] Note (AI): Gershom sets out what the school knows and does not know about returning to campus, including matric exams, spacing limits and why waiting helps. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=111): > I think what's important to remember is that our view on what's happening for term two is 100% clear. We are going to be schooling from home, and if we do need on occasion to bring a group in for pracs or something like that, those arrangements will be made well in advance and in line with safety, with the alert levels, et cetera. Term three at the moment is quite murky. There's a 25 to 30 percent clarity on what's going to happen, and the points that are very clear to us are that if we continue in the same line that we are moving at the moment and progression in the virus, that the Matrix will be on campus to write their prelims in September, and they will be on campus in October, November to write their finals. If we do need to bring the metrics in for practicals, we will be doing that as well. What is also very clear is that the OHS, the Occupational Health and Safety, as well as the personal protection equipment, is very, very important, and one of those elements is social distancing. And like a lot of other small private schools, we are not in a position where we can space our children at a meter and a half in each classroom. So that space is going to be influencing that decision as well. Another thing that is also very clear for us on a positive light is that our delivery of content curriculum, our teaching, having not missed a single day or hour of teaching to this point, as well as our assessment and the effectiveness validity is happening well, and there's no rush for us to be going back to school, where we have to compromise possibly the safety of our teachers, our, our children and our families. And I think Stepping back and allowing some of the clarity to be made clear through other people's actions and decisions is a good thing right now, because it means being behind the curve on this sense allows us to make the decisions knowing what the outcomes are going to be. ### Passage: Comorbidities and which asthma counts as high risk [10:19-12:23, 307 words] Note (AI): The guest defines comorbidities and separates children with well-controlled asthma from those she considers high risk. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [10:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=619): > A new word that we seem to be hearing a lot of that maybe not everybody understands the meaning of is this comorbidities, particularly in a school environment. What, what does that mean and what should we be doing with that? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=628): > So comorbidities are basically underlying medical conditions that you're living with. the most common comorbidities in our society are in adults are probably hypertension or high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, asthma. People may have a range of immunological comorbidities like HIV, have underlying cancer, which they're receiving immunosuppressive therapy. So com-comorbidities are essentially the, the diseases we're living with. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=660): > And they're a threat when they're treated or untreated, or does it not make a difference? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=665): > Okay, so the, the biggest comorbidities from what we understand at the moment are diabetes, obesity, uncontrolled asthma, High potential high blood pressure, an advanced age, and a lot of those pertain more to adult patients, but we are seeing more severe disease in children with severe uncontrolled asthma, with immune compromise, severe untreated cardiac problems, and with obesity. Gershom Aitchison, host [11:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=698): > Sorry, Taryn, what is uncontrolled asthma? What does that mean? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=701): > So As a pulmonologist, I treat a range of children with asthma. Some children have got very mild asthma just with exercise-induced symptoms when they play sports, and on the other end of the spectrum, I've got children with asthma that land up in ICU every winter on a ventilator. we are certainly more concerned about the severe end of the spectrum, children that have had previous ICU admissions for their asthma, children that have, are requiring multiple medications to control their asthma, children who have had any life-threatening asthma, children who have your general day-to-day asthma that are compliant with their medication, taking their pumps, and are controlling well on their pumps, we're not considering high risk at this stage. ### Passage: Flu vaccination and how long the surge may last [12:24-14:45, 446 words] Note (AI): The guest gives her main practical recommendation for parents and her view on how long the peak may last in South Africa. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=744): > So, Taryn, as a school, what do you recommend that we do? obviously, we are sorting out all our PPE and the cleaning of the school and our screening processes, those are all being handled, but what can parents do to really help their kids be healthy and strong for coming back to school? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=761): > One of the few things that we are strongly recommending is that, where possible, children be vaccinated for influenza. The influenza season hasn't fully unraveled yet in South Africa. It's, the case will start to pick up in about June, July. Because everyone's been at home, we're not seeing many cases yet. We have seen a couple. Looking at the Northern Hemisphere, the influenza season has particularly affected children in this past winter season, and there've been significant number of pediatric deaths related to influenza. In fact, many more pediatric deaths related to influenza than to coronavirus. We do strongly recommend the influenza vaccine, particularly if you have other conditions like asthma or lung, lung diseases or heart diseases. it is, it has been in short supply. I'm not sure what the current status is, but if you can get your hands on a flu vaccine, I would recommend taking it. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=814): > That's really important. Thank you. When it comes to the crunch, and without putting your neck on the chopping block here, what do we actually In terms of timeframes, in your opinion? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=824): > I think you'd have to ask that question to the epidemiologist. Looking at the world around us, it seems that, that once countries have hit their real peak, it seems to have taken about eight weeks to really surge and, and start subsiding. I think there's a lot of things that interplay in South Africa that we, we don't know how it's going to affect the progress of things, but, we've had our hard lockdown early, and the idea of that has been to delay the peak. So we may have a much slower, longer surge of this. I think we, we're all apprehensive about what lies before us. We want to get it over with, but I don't know if it's going to be over quickly. And it is likely that the virus will be around for several years before we actually have a reliable vaccine available in South Africa. So as Mr. Ramaphosa has alluded to, it's something we're going to have to learn to live with. I, I'm sure there will be a big initial surge at some stage, and I think we'll all focus on trying to get through that at the moment, and the rest will take care of itself as we go along. ### Passage: Why sick children must stay at home [14:46-16:17, 310 words] Note (AI): The guest explains why sick children should stay home and sets out the fourteen-day isolation rule counted from the test date. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=886): > As a school, how should we be approaching sick children? When they do come back, how should we really be approaching that? What's the safest and most cautious approach that we can take? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=895): > So sick children need to remain at home, both for their own health and for the health of those around them. When you're sick, if you come to school when you're sick, apart from not giving yourself a chance to get better, your immune system is suppressed to some degree, and you're not actually able to deal with additional infections you may pick up from the people around you. So it's really important to stay at home when you're sick, whether it's from influenza or coronavirus or any other virus that's around, that you're suffering from at, at that time. The sick children should remain at home until they're properly better. The parents in ICD guidelines on sick people with coronavirus is that they need to remain home for fourteen days from the time that they're tested for their illness. not from the time they receive the result, because there's a big lag in results at the moment. So from the, the time that you are unwell enough to go for a test, and that comes with the provider that you're completely well at that fourteen days. If you've still got any lingering symptoms, you should obviously stay at home longer. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [15:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=955): > So it really is a, a rather safe than sorry approach. Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [15:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=959): > Yes. And I think if anything, this pandemic's going to teach people to have a bit of respect for viral illnesses. We all know that we've gone to, to work and sent our children to school with fevers, with flu, with, with snotty noses, with coughs, and we should really be thinking about people around us and keeping our children at home when they're sick. ### Passage: A doctor's view as a parent on returning to school [16:19-18:01, 342 words] Note (AI): The guest weighs the risks and benefits of school attendance and separates healthy children from those with serious underlying illness. Gershom Aitchison, host [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=979): > Taryn, you're also a mom. I'm asking you to take off the doctor hat and put on the mom hat right now. is there anything on your mind as a parent and any advice parent to parent that you might be able to give just to alleviate some of those fears that are most burning in, in parents' minds at the moment? Dr. Taryn Gray, guest [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=994): > Yeah, so, so I think as a parent, we're all trying to weigh up the risk and the benefit of sending our children to school. Some of us are more fortunate than others in that we've got access to online teaching, to internet, to books and other resources, to, to people to help us care for our children while we have to work. but there's many people out there that aren't in a position, and we really do need to get our children back to school in South Africa. School's often a safer place for children than home is. as a parent, I'm, it's heartbreaking to see my children completely isolated from their peers and their teachers and everyone else that enriches their lives so much, and I'm glad I've got a safe place to keep them while this passes, but I do want them to get back to school. fortunately, my children are healthy and they're young, and I know that they're at the low risk end of the spectrum, so I'm not fearful of sending my children back to school at this stage. In the same breath, I have patients and I have friends with children with severe underlying illnesses that, of course, are, much more cautious about sending their children. And I think if you're the parent of a child with a significant underlying disease or, congenital problem that your child has been born with, that needs to be considered on an individual basis, and you need to take guidance from your pediatrician or your specialist pediatrician that's looking after your child in weighing up the, the risks and benefit of sending your particular child to school. ### Passage: The new second-half timetable built around exercise [20:27-23:12, 586 words] Note (AI): Gershom describes the timetable changes: the semester subject switch, a longer lunch break, and exercise slots by grade. Gershom Aitchison, host [20:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1227): > Gavin, the timetable for the, the second half of this year, we have a great opportunity to try something new. And as I've mentioned in a previous podcast, one of the big focuses for us is going to be on exercise. I don't believe that sitting behind a computer for six or seven hours straight is, is entirely healthy. And I think we underestimate how many steps we get in walking between classes and just doing our daily chores and walking around at school. And we did a survey with the students asking if they wanted longer breaks, starting later, ending later, et cetera. And I think the timetable reflects a little bit of something for everybody. And one of the things that is important and why this is, The timetable change happens in the middle of the year. It's just to note that our semester subjects, which are geography, history, physics, life science for the grade fours to grade nines, requires us to change the timetable because some of those subjects have now been finished for the year and we're going to engage in the other subjects. So it's a, it's a natural time for that change to happen. And what we've done is we'll see that the grade fours to sixes might end early on a couple of days at, at one o'clock, quarter past one. I've extended the second break to half an hour because the feedback from the parents and the students is that when they're at school and it's lunchtime, it's easy to open a, a lunchton of pre-made food and, and, and scoff it down very quickly. But when they're at home, they need to get up and go to the kitchen and make their food, which is a great life skill as well. So they need a little bit more time for that. And extending the day by 15 minutes just allows for a little bit of luxury to be able to do that. And I think it's healthier to eat that food that you've prepared yourself nice and fresh. On a Friday, we will be starting with assembly at eight o'clock. And from half past seven till eight o'clock, everybody is going to be exercising, keeping log of that. On a, a Monday and a Wednesday, the grade nines will be starting classes at 8:30 from 7:30 until 8:30. They've got an hour of PE where they can go and walk with their families or jog or run or do something like that and keep a log. And on a Tuesday and a Thursday, the grade fours to eights will have the same opportunity between 7:30 and 8:30 to go and exercise as a family, walk, get some cardio in. The grade tens to twelves, it's very difficult because their timetable doesn't really allow a lot of flexibility and movement, but they do all have three to four hours of free periods during the week, and they must use that time to exercise, to walk, and they can plan their schedule around that to walk as a family if they want to or go jogging or cycling in that, in those free hours that they do have. I think that we're also focusing on taking out some of the As we call the soft skills subjects, although they're very important, Jax used them for typing, touch typing, and Udemy courses, last term. Jax, how many hours did we end up putting in place with all the Udemy courses? ### Quotes > "being behind the curve on this sense allows us to make the decisions knowing what the outcomes are going to be." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=207) > "we need to learn to live with the COVID virus, we can't avoid it, and we need to understand what the best practice and the new normal looks like." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=438) > "you think you're doing something correctly one day, and the next day everything changes again as you come to understand the beast that we're working with." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=572) > "In fact, many more pediatric deaths related to influenza than to coronavirus." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [13:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=794) > "if you can get your hands on a flu vaccine, I would recommend taking it." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=810) > "I think if anything, this pandemic's going to teach people to have a bit of respect for viral illnesses." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=960) > "School's often a safer place for children than home is." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1017) > "I think we must also remember to go easy on our teaching staff, our school governing bodies, our policymakers at a national and provincial level." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1144) > "I don't believe that sitting behind a computer for six or seven hours straight is, is entirely healthy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1238) > "There's no quick fix here. This is not going to go away in a hurry." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · [25:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1535) ### Claims > "Edu Inc is a private school, and as the Minister alluded to in her presentations as well, private schools have a lot of leeway in terms of making the decisions in the best interests of their students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [00:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=25) > "So, for example, at alert level three, where we stand right now, you're allowed to bring 30% of your students back onto campus and 30% of your staff." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=90) > "Term three at the moment is quite murky. There's a 25 to 30 percent clarity on what's going to happen," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=128) > "the Matrix will be on campus to write their prelims in September, and they will be on campus in October, November to write their finals." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=142) > "like a lot of other small private schools, we are not in a position where we can space our children at a meter and a half in each classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=166) > "our delivery of content curriculum, our teaching, having not missed a single day or hour of teaching to this point, as well as our assessment and the effectiveness validity is happening well," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [02:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=179) > "And I think Stepping back and allowing some of the clarity to be made clear through other people's actions and decisions is a good thing right now, because it means being behind the curve on this sense allows us to make the decisions knowing what the outcomes are going to be." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=199) > "for the remainder of the year, we are not going to insist on a uniform policy. The children will be allowed to wear surveys purely to try and make sure that those children are wearing clean clothes every single day," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=243) > "So if we have 70 children coming onto campus and that screening process takes one minute per child, that's 70 minutes to get every child screened before they come through the door." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: return to campus planning · [04:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=273) > "we've already changed, our budget for the year to equip our teachers to be able to teach most effectively from home with additional monitors, headsets, upgraded fiber lines, whatever they've needed, digital pens" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: school costs and budget · [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=311) > "We've had offers of Perspex cubicles that people walk through and all sorts of things costing, costing hundreds of thousands of rands, and I don't think that's necessary." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: school costs and budget · [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=356) > "Edu Inc's, value system has always been about not passing additional costs on to parents, and we're trying to make sure that we don't do that at this point as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: school costs and budget · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=365) > "it's likely that we're going to have a percentage of either the teachers or the children who aren't going to be joining us all the time, which means effectively you have to run two schools on the same budget." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: school costs and budget · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=376) > "any parent who is in OHS or PP or has PPE connections that can facilitate and help us with that process in terms of costs, and availability, please drop us a line" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: school costs and budget · [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=398) > "we need to be prepared that it's going to go beyond just the third term of 2020, and it might be a reality with us for 2021." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=416) > "this is very fluid. It's something that we have to be quite flexible about, and we need to have a mindset that allows us to actually adapt as we're going along." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=490) > "we're fortunate in some sense in that we're lagging behind the rest of the world, so we have got some data and some guidelines to go on from other countries' experience." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [09:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=552) > "So I think people really have to have an, an open mind and be prepared for change and be prepared to be flexible, and what you decide as a school is in the best interest of safety of the children and the staff may have to change along the way," >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=580) > "And so timelines are difficult to predict, but it may be, it may well be that things only really hit you guys in August, September up in Gauteng." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=609) > "So comorbidities are basically underlying medical conditions that you're living with. the most common comorbidities in our society are in adults are probably hypertension or high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, asthma." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=628) > "we are seeing more severe disease in children with severe uncontrolled asthma, with immune compromise, severe untreated cardiac problems, and with obesity." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=685) > "As a pulmonologist, I treat a range of children with asthma. Some children have got very mild asthma just with exercise-induced symptoms when they play sports, and on the other end of the spectrum, I've got children with asthma that land up in ICU every winter on a ventilator." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=703) > "children who have your general day-to-day asthma that are compliant with their medication, taking their pumps, and are controlling well on their pumps, we're not considering high risk at this stage." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=732) > "One of the few things that we are strongly recommending is that, where possible, children be vaccinated for influenza." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: influenza vaccination · [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=761) > "the influenza season has particularly affected children in this past winter season, and there've been significant number of pediatric deaths related to influenza. In fact, many more pediatric deaths related to influenza than to coronavirus." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: influenza vaccination · [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=785) > "once countries have hit their real peak, it seems to have taken about eight weeks to really surge and, and start subsiding." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [13:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=831) > "we've had our hard lockdown early, and the idea of that has been to delay the peak. So we may have a much slower, longer surge of this." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [14:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=845) > "it is likely that the virus will be around for several years before we actually have a reliable vaccine available in South Africa." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=861) > "So sick children need to remain at home, both for their own health and for the health of those around them." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: keeping sick children home · [14:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=895) > "they need to remain home for fourteen days from the time that they're tested for their illness. not from the time they receive the result, because there's a big lag in results at the moment." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: keeping sick children home · [15:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=932) > "We all know that we've gone to, to work and sent our children to school with fevers, with flu, with, with snotty noses, with coughs, and we should really be thinking about people around us and keeping our children at home when they're sick." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: keeping sick children home · [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=966) > "we really do need to get our children back to school in South Africa. School's often a safer place for children than home is." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: return to campus planning · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1013) > "fortunately, my children are healthy and they're young, and I know that they're at the low risk end of the spectrum, so I'm not fearful of sending my children back to school at this stage." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: return to campus planning · [17:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1037) > "if you're the parent of a child with a significant underlying disease or, congenital problem that your child has been born with, that needs to be considered on an individual basis, and you need to take guidance from your pediatrician" >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1059) > "I think as parents, we have to be grateful that COVID-19 is a disease that affects children mildly in the majority of cases." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: comorbidities and asthma risk · [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1096) > "we must also remember to go easy on our teaching staff, our school governing bodies, our policymakers at a national and provincial level. It's, it's a minefield for all of us." >, Dr. Taryn Gray, guest · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1144) > "I don't believe that sitting behind a computer for six or seven hours straight is, is entirely healthy. And I think we underestimate how many steps we get in walking between classes" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [20:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1238) > "our semester subjects, which are geography, history, physics, life science for the grade fours to grade nines, requires us to change the timetable because some of those subjects have now been finished for the year" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1266) > "I've extended the second break to half an hour because the feedback from the parents and the students is that when they're at school and it's lunchtime, it's easy to open a, a lunchton of pre-made food" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1289) > "On a Friday, we will be starting with assembly at eight o'clock. And from half past seven till eight o'clock, everybody is going to be exercising, keeping log of that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1314) > "it came to a total of 453 hours of online learning through an online institution, which is such a great life skill for the kids to have." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1410) > "So what we're looking at this term is some virtual robotics for grade four to nine, bringing the robotics into the virtual space." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [23:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1427) > "one of the big challenges this term is being able to do assessment, formal assessment like exam Things with proper invigilation, making sure that it is valid and it's fair and that they're authentic," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1448) > "Parents are always welcome to join assembly. It doesn't matter if it's in a virtual space or when we're back on campus," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1469) > "This timetable will start on the first of June. I'm just finalizing a couple of tweaks right now, and it will be made available before the end of the week" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: new timetable and exercise · [25:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1503) > "It's clear that we're learning as we go along. We're talking to other schools. We're talking to professionals. We're taking guidance from experts in many categories." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: COVID-19 uncertainty and flexibility · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988456_high.mp3#t=1525) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Private schools are not government schools Dr. Taryn Gray | Paediatric Pulmonologist Jax and Gershom Aitchison clarify when pupils are likely to return to our Fourways campus. They have a conversation with Dr Taryn Gray, a paediatric pulmonolgist, about the 'flu shot, co-morbidities and advice for parents. The new timetable for the 2nd half to the year is also discussed. Dr. Taryn Gray · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 - We're ready for 2020 Term 2 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-04-28-covid-19-we-re-ready-for/ - Date: 2020-04-28 (as at 2020-04-28) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Term two schooling from home, Online learning setup, Government versus independent schools, Reports and parent feedback, Online assessment, New students and growth - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988457 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this short update, interviewer Gavin puts parents' questions about term two of 2020 to Gershom (Gersh) and Jacqueline (Jax) Aitchison, headmaster and executive head of Edu Inc. Edu Inc is an independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12. They explain that term two will be school-at-home, with dates and an online assembly. They describe what teachers and pupils need at home, how ministerial announcements apply to independent schools, the delayed term one reports with a new parent feedback form, the plans for online assessment, and new pupils joining through online trial weeks. **Key ideas** - Jax argues that the Minister's phased-return announcements mainly address government schools. Independent schools like Education Incorporated have leeway on phased reintegration but must still comply on dates and the matric exam. ([02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=146) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=159) [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=168)) - Jax says the school's first value, the best interests of the children, means staying off campus while COVID numbers rise. She adds that there is no rush because schooling from home has worked. ([03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=189) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=191) [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=194) [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=211) [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=214)) - Gersh says the school equipped teachers for a full term online with fibre lines, second monitors, digital pens and over-ear headphones. ([01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=82) [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=95)) - Gersh advises parents that each pupil needs their own workspace, computer, headset, camera and a stable internet connection. He says visual contact matters for connection in the classroom. ([01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=109) [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=121) [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=121) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=126)) - Gersh explains that term one reports were held back so teachers could focus on teaching. The reports will add an online-learning evaluation, teacher comments and a parent form. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=276) [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=283) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=295) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=303)) - Continuous assessment carries on online. A formal exam-type assessment is planned for the end of term, guided by the IEB for Grades 10 to 12 and by other schools' practice for Grades 4 to 9. ([05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=336) [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=346) [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=359)) - Gersh says new pupils are joining through online trial weeks. The interviewer notes that the school is growing while other schools face closures. ([06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=404) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=412) [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=425) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=430)) **Lessons** - Gersh advises parents to set up a dedicated workspace, a computer, a headset, a camera and stable internet for a pupil learning from home for an extended period. ([01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=109) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=126)) - Gersh reports that teachers teaching online for a full term needed fibre, dual monitors, digital pens for subjects like maths, and good headphones. ([01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=82) [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=95)) - Jax notes that independent schools should read ministerial announcements knowing they mainly target government schools. Such schools still comply on dates and the matric exam. ([02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=146) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=159) [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=168)) - Gersh says the school chose to prioritise teaching over issuing reports on time, then used the reports to evaluate the online learning experience, including input from parents. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=276) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=295) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=303)) **Who it's for:** Parents of current and prospective Edu Inc pupils who want the term two 2020 dates, the technology requirements and the plans for reports and assessment. Also useful to educators interested in how an independent school adapted to remote teaching during lockdown. **Facts stated in the episode** - Teachers return on Monday 4 May 2020; pupils start school-at-home on Tuesday 5 May with a 7:30 online assembly. ([00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=53) [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=59) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=68)) - Jax states that the Minister's announcements predominantly address the 80% of schools in the government space. ([02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=146)) - Term one reports are planned to be sent by 15 May. ([04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=283)) - Grades 10 to 12 assessment is guided by the IEB and subject experts; Grades 4 to 9 use other schools' best practice. ([05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=359)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: When does Edu Inc's term two 2020 start?** A: Gersh says teachers return on Monday 4 May to finish preparing. Pupils start on Tuesday 5 May with an online assembly at 7:30, all schooling from home. ([00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=53) [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=59) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=68)) **Q: Will Edu Inc pupils go back to campus in term two?** A: Jax says Edu Inc will school from home for all of term two. The exception would be if matrics need lab work on campus, with at least a week's notice and safety protocols in place. ([03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=194) [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=237) [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=250)) **Q: Do the Education Minister's announcements apply to independent schools?** A: Jax says the Minister is predominantly addressing the 80% of government schools. Independent schools follow ISASA guidance and have leeway on phased reintegration, though they must comply on dates and the matric exam. ([02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=146) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=159) [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=168)) **Q: What equipment does my child need for online school?** A: Gersh lists their own space to work, their own computer, a headset, a camera so peers and teachers can see them, and, most importantly, a stable internet connection. ([01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=109) [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=121) [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=126)) **Q: When will term one reports be sent?** A: Gersh says reports will go out in the first two weeks of term two, aiming for 15 May. They will include the online learning experience, teacher comments and a parent feedback form. ([04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=283) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=295) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=303)) **Q: How will exams and assessments work during school-at-home?** A: Gersh says continuous assessment (SBAs) continues, and a formal exam-type assessment is planned for the end of term. Grades 10 to 12 follow IEB and subject-expert guidance; Grades 4 to 9 draw on other schools' best practice. ([05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=336) [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=346) [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=359)) **Q: Is Edu Inc taking new pupils during lockdown?** A: Gersh says new pupils are starting in term two and others are doing trial weeks. The challenge is keeping those trial weeks meaningful and the assessments sound while online. ([06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=404) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=412)) ### Passage: Term two dates and the home-learning setup [00:50-02:15, 316 words] Note (AI): Gives the term two start dates, the equipment the school provided to teachers, and the list of what pupils need at home. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=50): > What's most important to answer your first question is that on Monday the 4th of May, teachers are going to be back at work finalizing their preparation for the new term. We are not going to be on the physical school premises, and on the 5th of May on Tuesday, the students will be at school, but again, it's going to be schooling from home. We will have an assembly at 7:30 in the morning. The students will receive an invitation to able to attend that meet, so we can all touch sides and make sure that we're ready for the new term. We will be following the schedule that we had in place from last term. While everyone else has been on holiday, we identified with our teachers that because this is a long-term process that we're engaging in for the entire second term, that the teachers needed a fiber line, they need additional monitors so they could have the students on one monitor and work on another monitor. Some of the teachers needed digital pens, especially with the maths and things like that, and they all needed over-ear headphones so that they could communicate well with their students. So we've been putting all of that in place, but I'd also just like to remind parents that what your kids need going into the second term, because this is not going away in a hurry, is they need their own space to work, they need their own computer, they should have a headset, they should have a camera so that their peers and the teachers can see them. We've identified that visual FaceTime is very, very important in the connection in the classroom. Most importantly, they need a stable internet connection, and internet service providers are considered an essential service. If you don't have a stable internet connection, let's try and sort that out, please. ### Passage: Why Edu Inc stays at home for term two [02:16-04:29, 424 words] Note (AI): Explains how ministerial announcements apply to independent schools, the safety reasoning for staying off campus, and when that could change. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=136): > As news and announcements unfold and we hear about alert levels and who can go back to school and who can't, there's a lot of confusion. What's the status for Edu Inc? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=145): > People need to remember that when the Minister for Education addresses the nation on the phased return of grades into schools, she's predominantly addressing the 80% of schools that fall into the government space. She is not necessarily addressing schools like Education Incorporated and other independent schools. We take our gardens from Isasa in that regard. Yes, we will comply, obviously, with going back to school on certain dates, and we have to comply when it comes to the matric exam and any announcements in that space. But when it comes to the phased reintegration of children into the school space, we are allowed quite a lot of leeway. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=185): > So with all this leeway you have, what is Edu Inc going to be doing in term two? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=189): > Sticking to value number one, which is everything we do is in the best interests of the children. The situation as it stands right now with the, the COVID numbers continually increasing as we come out of lockdown and go into level four, means that we don't believe that it's particularly safe to be bringing our staff and our children back onto the campus at this point. It's safer for them to remain at home. There's also no real rush for us to be getting our children back to school because our online process of schooling from home has worked so well. Our curriculum is on track. Everybody is doing what they need to do. There is no reason to be rushing back onto campus. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [03:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=225): > So if I understand correctly, irrespective of what the minister announces, for term two, Edu Inc is doing schooling at home. Are there any circumstances under which this would change? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=236): > You're 100% right, Gavin. Edu Inc will be schooling from home for term two. Circumstances where this would be reconsidered would be instances where Matrix, for example, would need to be doing lab work, some form of experiment work where they needed to be on campus, but we would be giving parents at least a week's notice of a situation like that, and obviously all the correct safety and sanitation protocols would be in place in such an instance. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=261): > It's also important to add that we'll be guided by the IAB and ISASA when it comes to that, because there are many other schools in the same space with similar decisions to be made. ### Passage: Plans for term one reports and term two assessment [04:30-06:10, 363 words] Note (AI): Sets out the report timeline, the new online-learning section with parent input, and how continuous and exam-type assessment will run online. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=270): > Term one ended a little unusually in that reports weren't sent home on the last day. What's the plan with those now? Gershom Aitchison, host [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=276): > We chose not to issue reports at the end of the first term while we focused on the teaching and making sure that our learners were actually learning. What we've decided to do is issue reports in the first two weeks of going back to school, and if all goes according to plan, we'll have the reports sent by the 15th of May. Things are going to look a little different for the first term with reports because we're going to add the online learning experience and how the children handled it using certain criteria and also give comments on that from all the teachers. We are also going to send out a form that we'd like parents to fill in, which is going to be part of the report evaluating their kids at home and how they've engaged with the online learning process. It would be very much appreciated if all parents would take the time to fill that out. It's not going to take too long, but I think it's going to give some seriously valuable feedback to the students. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=323): > I imagine one of the biggest things you're grappling with is assessment from home, and given that term two is usually an exam term, what's the plan? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=332): > Assessment's a really interesting space to be in right now. And one of the things that we have been looking at over the holidays with the teachers is various different ways of assessing online that allow for fair and reliable assessment to go forward. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=345): > Gavin, the plan is to continue our SBAs, which are student-based assessments or continuous assessment as we did in the first term, and we are looking into means and ways of doing the more formal assessment, exam type assessment at the end of the term. With the grade 10s to 12s, we've been guided by the IEB and the subject experts. With the grade 4s to 9s, we are using ideas from other schools and their best practice, as well as what we've been doing up until now. ### Passage: New pupils, trial weeks and returning to pace [06:44-07:27, 181 words] Note (AI): Covers the new pupils joining, the challenge of running trial weeks online, and the closing reminder to pupils. Gershom Aitchison, host [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=404): > we've got a few new faces that will be starting in the new term, and there are students who are doing trial weeks, so there's going to be some new faces in the classroom. The biggest challenge that Jax and I face is to make sure that the trial weeks are meaningful, as they were when you did them at the physical premises, and that we can do the assessments and give feedback properly to make sure that the new additions to our Edu Inc family are the right fit. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=425): > So at a time where other schools are closing down and facing challenges, you guys are still growing. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=429): > Absolutely, Gavin, and it's very exciting to see that happen, and it's very exciting to see the support that we're getting from herons and the students as well. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=436): > Jax, any last thoughts? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=437): > Well, from my side, I'm just really looking forward to seeing all the faces again next week, Tuesday. Yeah, make sure your workspaces are ready to go, guys, because you know that once we get going, that pace does not slow down. ### Quotes > "We've identified that visual FaceTime is very, very important in the connection in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=121) > "everything we do is in the best interests of the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=191) > "our online process of schooling from home has worked so well. Our curriculum is on track. Everybody is doing what they need to do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=214) > "There is no reason to be rushing back onto campus." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=222) > "making sure that our learners were actually learning." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=280) > "So at a time where other schools are closing down and facing challenges, you guys are still growing." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=425) > "once we get going, that pace does not slow down." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=445) ### Claims > "on Monday the 4th of May, teachers are going to be back at work finalizing their preparation for the new term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [00:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=53) > "We are not going to be on the physical school premises, and on the 5th of May on Tuesday, the students will be at school, but again, it's going to be schooling from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=59) > "We will have an assembly at 7:30 in the morning. The students will receive an invitation to able to attend that meet, so we can all touch sides and make sure that we're ready for the new term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=68) > "we identified with our teachers that because this is a long-term process that we're engaging in for the entire second term, that the teachers needed a fiber line, they need additional monitors so they could have the students on one monitor and work on another monitor." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=82) > "Some of the teachers needed digital pens, especially with the maths and things like that, and they all needed over-ear headphones so that they could communicate well with their students." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=95) > "what your kids need going into the second term, because this is not going away in a hurry, is they need their own space to work, they need their own computer, they should have a headset, they should have a camera so that their peers and the teachers can see them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [01:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=109) > "We've identified that visual FaceTime is very, very important in the connection in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=121) > "Most importantly, they need a stable internet connection, and internet service providers are considered an essential service. If you don't have a stable internet connection, let's try and sort that out, please." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=126) > "when the Minister for Education addresses the nation on the phased return of grades into schools, she's predominantly addressing the 80% of schools that fall into the government space." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Government versus independent schools · [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=146) > "She is not necessarily addressing schools like Education Incorporated and other independent schools. We take our gardens from Isasa in that regard." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Government versus independent schools · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=159) > "Yes, we will comply, obviously, with going back to school on certain dates, and we have to comply when it comes to the matric exam and any announcements in that space. But when it comes to the phased reintegration of children into the school space, we are allowed quite a lot of leeway." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Government versus independent schools · [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=168) > "Sticking to value number one, which is everything we do is in the best interests of the children." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=189) > "The situation as it stands right now with the, the COVID numbers continually increasing as we come out of lockdown and go into level four, means that we don't believe that it's particularly safe to be bringing our staff and our children back onto the campus at this point." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [03:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=194) > "There's also no real rush for us to be getting our children back to school because our online process of schooling from home has worked so well. Our curriculum is on track." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=211) > "Edu Inc will be schooling from home for term two. Circumstances where this would be reconsidered would be instances where Matrix, for example, would need to be doing lab work, some form of experiment work where they needed to be on campus," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=237) > "but we would be giving parents at least a week's notice of a situation like that, and obviously all the correct safety and sanitation protocols would be in place in such an instance." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Term two schooling from home · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=250) > "It's also important to add that we'll be guided by the IAB and ISASA when it comes to that, because there are many other schools in the same space with similar decisions to be made." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Government versus independent schools · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=261) > "We chose not to issue reports at the end of the first term while we focused on the teaching and making sure that our learners were actually learning." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reports and parent feedback · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=276) > "What we've decided to do is issue reports in the first two weeks of going back to school, and if all goes according to plan, we'll have the reports sent by the 15th of May." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reports and parent feedback · [04:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=283) > "we're going to add the online learning experience and how the children handled it using certain criteria and also give comments on that from all the teachers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reports and parent feedback · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=295) > "We are also going to send out a form that we'd like parents to fill in, which is going to be part of the report evaluating their kids at home and how they've engaged with the online learning process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Reports and parent feedback · [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=303) > "one of the things that we have been looking at over the holidays with the teachers is various different ways of assessing online that allow for fair and reliable assessment to go forward." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online assessment · [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=336) > "the plan is to continue our SBAs, which are student-based assessments or continuous assessment as we did in the first term, and we are looking into means and ways of doing the more formal assessment, exam type assessment at the end of the term." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online assessment · [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=346) > "With the grade 10s to 12s, we've been guided by the IEB and the subject experts. With the grade 4s to 9s, we are using ideas from other schools and their best practice, as well as what we've been doing up until now." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online assessment · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=359) > "we've got a few new faces that will be starting in the new term, and there are students who are doing trial weeks, so there's going to be some new faces in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New students and growth · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=404) > "The biggest challenge that Jax and I face is to make sure that the trial weeks are meaningful, as they were when you did them at the physical premises, and that we can do the assessments and give feedback properly" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New students and growth · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=412) > "So at a time where other schools are closing down and facing challenges, you guys are still growing." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: New students and growth · [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=425) > "it's very exciting to see that happen, and it's very exciting to see the support that we're getting from herons and the students as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: New students and growth · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=430) > "make sure your workspaces are ready to go, guys, because you know that once we get going, that pace does not slow down." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning setup · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988457_high.mp3#t=442) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Safety first Gershom and Jax Aitchison (Headmaster and Executive Head) Edu Inc will be resume Term 2 with 'school-at-home'. Updates on reports and assessments and some new faces joining us. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 End of 2020 Term 1 - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-04-13-covid-19-end-of-2020-term/ - Date: 2020-04-13 (as at 2020-04-13) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: End of term update, Holiday learning plans, Student wellbeing and connection, COVID-19 time capsule project, Udemy online courses, Matric preparation - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988458 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) The hosts of Edu Inc, an independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg that writes the IEB, close Term 1 during the COVID-19 lockdown. Gershom Aitchison says no day or hour of teaching was missed and that school plans to resume on 5 May. Jacqueline Aitchison describes student anxiety and ways to keep children connected with friends. They set out holiday work by teacher and club, and a time capsule project in which students record their COVID-19 experience. The episode ends with Hannah, a grade eight student, on the 18 Udemy courses she has completed. **Key ideas** - Gershom Aitchison says Edu Inc did not miss a single day or hour of teaching after schools closed, and is on track to finish the year's curriculum. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=21) [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=23)) - Jacqueline Aitchison reports that rumours on social media from other schools are making students anxious about promotion. She reassures them that the curriculum and assessment continue as normal. ([01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=69) [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=93) [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=98)) - Jacqueline Aitchison stresses staying socially connected. She asks parents to check in with their children and says video chats with school friends are strongly encouraged. ([00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=59) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=111) [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=122)) - Gershom Aitchison frames holiday work as a way to keep students stimulated and connected, not as punishment, while leaving plenty of downtime. ([07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428) [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428) [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=447)) - Teachers are offering a wide range of holiday activities, including matric revision, COVID data statistics, music house challenges, robotics and an investment competition. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=159) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=204) [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=214) [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=228) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=254) [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=263)) - Jacqueline Aitchison proposes a time capsule project. Students record their COVID-19 experience in any medium, earn subject credits and house points, and the entries are displayed at school. ([05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=313) [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=321) [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=371) [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=396) [06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=402)) - Hannah says Udemy courses are about understanding rather than certificates, and that asking teachers for help is fine. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=504) [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=556) [09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=559) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=575)) **Lessons** - Jacqueline Aitchison urges parents to keep checking that their children are still in contact with friends during the holidays. ([01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=111) [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=122)) - Gershom Aitchison encourages parents to keep sending children outside for fresh air. ([02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=149)) - Jacqueline Aitchison tells matrics that they would be working through this holiday even in a normal year, and that there is a lot to get done. ([07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=462)) - Jacqueline Aitchison advises students to keep up their reading, typing and Udemy courses, and to start another course once one is finished. ([07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=473)) - Hannah advises students not to rush past topics they do not understand, and to ask a teacher for help. ([09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=556) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=575)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc parents and students who want to know how Term 1 ended under lockdown, what holiday work and activities are planned, and when school resumes. Also useful to educators interested in how one school kept teaching and engagement going during COVID-19 closures. **Facts stated in the episode** - The last day of Term 1 was Thursday, with a normal schedule instead of a report day. ([00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=38)) - Edu Inc planned to resume school on the 5th of May. ([00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=48)) - Gershom Aitchison refers to the hard work done in the last three and a half weeks. ([07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428)) - Parents fear being at home with their children for four weeks of holiday. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=159)) - Hannah, in grade eight, says she has finished 18 Udemy courses. ([08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=490) [08:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=510)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Did Edu Inc lose teaching time during the COVID-19 lockdown?** A: Gershom Aitchison says the school did not miss a single day or hour of teaching after schools closed, is on track to finish its curriculum, and has assessed students well. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=21) [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=23)) **Q: Will Edu Inc issue Term 1 reports, and when does school restart?** A: No reports will be issued this term. Gershom Aitchison says they will wait until students are back, with school planned to resume on 5 May, either on the premises or from home. ([00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=48)) **Q: Why are students anxious at the end of the term?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison says rumours from friends at other schools and on social media have students worried about the curriculum and whether they will be promoted. ([01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=69)) **Q: Can students keep video chatting with school friends over the holidays?** A: Yes. Jacqueline Aitchison says it is an absolute yes and that the school strongly encourages it. ([02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=122)) **Q: What school activities are planned for the April holidays?** A: Gershom Aitchison lists matric revision, COVID data statistics for grades nine to eleven, a music Google Classroom with house challenges, robotics WRO challenges, investment club coaching, Afrikaans movies, and life orientation SBAs. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=159) [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=204) [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=214) [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=228) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=254) [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=263) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=272) [04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=290)) **Q: What is the Edu Inc COVID-19 time capsule project?** A: Jacqueline Aitchison describes it as a way for students to express their COVID-19 experience in any medium, such as stories, films, journals, art or Lego builds. Entries earn subject credits, the best earn house points, and they are displayed at reception. ([05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=313) [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=321) [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=371) [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=396)) **Q: Is holiday schoolwork a punishment?** A: Gershom Aitchison says it is not. It is meant to keep recent hard work alive and to keep students engaged and connected, with plenty of downtime left. ([07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428) [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=447)) **Q: Why does a student keep doing Udemy courses?** A: Hannah says she likes the diversity and choice of courses, that they give insight into future careers, and that her passion for business drives most of her choices. ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=527) [09:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=540)) ### Passage: Mood among students and parents at term end [00:59-02:13, 246 words] Note (AI): Covers student anxiety about rumours and promotion, the school's reassurance on curriculum and assessment, and encouragement to keep video contact with friends. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=59): > So Jax, over the last week, you've had your finger on the pulse and had numerous conversations with parents and children. What's the mood, what's going on, what's on people's minds this week? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=69): > There's still a lot of anxiety, Gavin, surrounding curriculum, and the children are contacting friends from other schools, and that's sometimes not such a great thing when they are being privy to rumors and all sorts of nonsense coming, you know, through social media, and they start wondering whether or not they're actually going to be promoted this year, whether or not we're actually going to get back to school at all this year. So I would like to reassure our students that we will continue with our curriculum as normal. You will be assessed meaningfully, so it's business as usual, guys. We're going to get the job done. It's just going to look a little bit different. I'd also like to really reiterate the importance of the face-to-face communications with the children. And parents, when the kids are on holiday, please keep asking them and just checking in with them that they are still touching sides with their friends. It's come up a few times in conversations that I've had where the children have asked if they are able to keep using the hangouts and the chats to have video conferencing and video chats with their friends from school, and that's an absolute yes. In fact, we strongly encourage that they do. ### Passage: Holiday work planned across subjects and clubs [02:39-05:07, 532 words] Note (AI): A teacher-by-teacher list of the holiday work, revision, competitions and clubs on offer, including COVID data statistics for grades nine to eleven. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=159): > The biggest thing is that parents are very scared that they're going to be stuck with their kids for four weeks locked in a small space and they're not going to have anything to do. There's always things going on in the holidays in terms of school expectations, specifically with the grade twelves. Grade tens and elevens also have a little bit of, and it's usually project work to do over that time. So just a couple of highlights that I'm going to give you about what we're planning and what's happening in this space, and that has been communicated to the students. Mr. Arquette is going to be available between one and two daily during the week for his history and math lit students, specifically for the matrix. Mr. Singer's got some biology projects focused on the process of doing project management, et cetera, for his grade sevens and eights. Dr. Makings has scheduled a couple of lessons for her grade ten to twelves for life science and physics, and they've got work to do and some projects to get through. Mr. Moody is doing revision with the grade twelves, especially on the first terms work so that they're not losing all the work and effort they've put in. And what he's really, really excited about is he's going to be doing some data handling with the grade nines to elevens using real data and statistics on the COVID. So it's not just a, a theoretical, there's something real that's happening so they can actually see data and statistics in action. And then Mr. Butler, Mr. Arquette, and Mr. Morrison have created a music Google Classroom and have started issuing house challenges to people who are on that group, and anyone who's interested or has any music inclination are welcome to join and see where that goes. And then myself, I've already scheduled some fortnight and CSCO competitions. The captain and vice captain, Mercedes and Brennan, are going to be sitting. And there'll be an inter-house competition happening or competitions over the holidays. I'll be checking in with the robotics club because we've got our WRO specs and challenges for this year, and even if it happens a bit later, we'll still have the same challenges. And then I'm going to do some online coaching and teaching with the investment club for the Ellen Gray Investment Competition that some of the senior kids have started this year with Mr. Tumo. So Miss and Mrs. van Skalkwijk would like the kids to still hear Afrikaans during the holidays and have lined up a whole lot of movies that will be available for them to be able to watch, and the grade 12s will be starting with the Geeta, which is a generalized, project for the year. Mr. Morrison will carry on with ongoing SBAs for geography, and myself, Mr. Aitchison, will be doing SBAs with the life orientation students. There's some physical activity they need to do and record, also pushing a little bit of community service if they can be creative during the holidays, as well as some tasks that the grade 12s need to do over the course of April. ### Passage: The COVID-19 time capsule project explained [05:13-06:54, 310 words] Note (AI): Explains the project's purpose, the media students may choose, how submissions earn subject credits and house points, and how entries will be displayed. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=313): > We've already done quite a lot of work in capturing the thoughts and the feelings of our students during this really unprecedented time. And we thought it would be a good idea to formalize this by creating some form of a, a time capsule project. The idea would be that the children get to express their feelings and their experiences in a medium of their choice, and then they display this time capsule in the reception when we all get back to school. An example of the type of thing that the children could do to express their experiences would be things like writing a story or a play, making a movie or some form of documentary, submitting a journal. It could be a written journal or a digital journal. They could create some kind of artwork, a painting, a sculpture, even a comic book, and as far as the little guys go, even a Lego build. Anything that really tells the story of their COVID-19 experience that they would like to share with future students of Edu Inc. Very simply, all the submissions would be given extra credits to the subject most relevant to their chosen medium when we get back to school. For example, a poem would be assigned points for, for English or for language. A Lego build would be assigned points for technology. movies, documentaries, creative arts, for example. Comic books could be either language or creative arts, depending on what the child has decided to do. Best examples from each grade would be chosen for the display, and then house points given to those as well. So the idea behind this project would be to capture the mood, the feeling, the experience of what we've all gone through at this time, because we are going to be talking about it for many, many years to come. ### Passage: Why holiday work is not punishment [07:08-08:23, 283 words] Note (AI): Both hosts give their reasons for the holiday work, a message to matrics and advice to the rest of the school about Udemy courses. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428): > Yes, I don't want students to think that the work that they're going to be doing during the holidays is punishment. It's not at all. I think it's irresponsible not to do something to keep all the hard work we've done in the last three and a half weeks alive. I think that the whole idea behind this is just to keep you stimulated, keep you engaged with school, keep you connected to your schoolmates and your teachers. You're also still going to have a lot of downtime and relax time. This is not as rigorous and stressful as a normal school day, but we do need to keep your brains occupied and busy. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=455): > And I think a message for the metrics at this point is an important one. Guys, it's time to really dig deep. Regardless of being at home, even if you're at school right now, you would be working through this holiday. There is a lot to get done. You're fully aware of your situation, and, and guys, this is where the going gets tough. For the rest of the school, just keep doing what you're doing. Maintain your reading and your typing. Keep going on those Udemy courses. So guys, if you finish one Udemy course, don't be afraid to go and tackle another one. I'm quite sure your parents will be more than happy to help you set up another course, download another one for you, and just keep going. A great example of this is our Udemy queen, Hannah, in grade eight, who has, I think, to date, done around about 18 courses, so it would only be appropriate to finish off this podcast hearing from Hannah. ### Passage: A grade eight student on completing 18 Udemy courses [08:24-10:10, 298 words] Note (AI): A student describes, in her own words, why she keeps taking courses and why she values understanding over certificates. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=504): > Hi, everyone. I'm Hannah. I was asked to speak to you all about the Udemy courses I've completed. So far, I've finished 18 courses. These courses range from business studies to math to beauty and even dance. I guess you could say I'm a little obsessed. What makes me continue doing these courses, you may ask? Well, I like the diversity of the courses, the fact that I have plenty options to choose from, and they give me insight into what I could do in terms of my future career. The inspiration behind most of the topics I've chosen is that I really have a passion for business, and I want to pursue a career in business when I'm older. I want to understand how businesses run, what makes them tick. So doing numerous business courses will help me understand these concepts. Something I feel I need to tell everyone is that the Udemy courses aren't there just for that certificate. Instead, these courses help you understand what you are learning, and if you need any help from a teacher or for them to add comments onto your notes, all you need to do is ask for the help. You certainly don't have to fly past a topic and act like you have everything under control, because I don't. I certainly believe that I've learned a lot from these courses, and I hope you have too. I've been encouraged by three special people to keep going and show these courses who's boss. These people are Mrs. Aitchison, Mrs Ostrowick, and my best friend Lulu. Thank you again for your support. I would like to wish everyone the best of luck during the last week of school and hope that you all keep shining. Now go finish your course. ### Quotes > "In fact, we haven't even missed a single hour of teaching since schools were closed," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=23) > "You will be assessed meaningfully, so it's business as usual, guys. We're going to get the job done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=98) > "because we are going to be talking about it for many, many years to come." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=411) > "I don't want students to think that the work that they're going to be doing during the holidays is punishment." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428) > "Guys, it's time to really dig deep." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=459) > "the Udemy courses aren't there just for that certificate." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [09:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=559) > "You certainly don't have to fly past a topic and act like you have everything under control, because I don't." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=575) > "I've been encouraged by three special people to keep going and show these courses who's boss." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=589) > "hope that you all keep shining. Now go finish your course." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=607) ### Claims > "I'm very proud that Edu Inc hasn't missed a single day of school. In fact, we haven't even missed a single hour of teaching since schools were closed, and that we're on track to finish our curriculum for the year, and that the students have been well assessed during this time period." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of term update · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=21) > "Instead of having a report day where parents come in and meet teachers and collect reports, we'll be running the normal schedule, finishing at two or three o'clock, depending on the students and the grade that they're in." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of term update · [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=38) > "We are not going to be issuing any reports this term. We're going to wait until we get back to school, and then we are planning to resume school on the 5th of May, be it at the physical premises of the school or schooling from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: End of term update · [00:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=48) > "There's still a lot of anxiety, Gavin, surrounding curriculum, and the children are contacting friends from other schools, and that's sometimes not such a great thing when they are being privy to rumors and all sorts of nonsense coming, you know, through social media, and they start wondering whether or not they're actually going to be promoted this year," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student wellbeing and connection · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=69) > "So I would like to reassure our students that we will continue with our curriculum as normal. You will be assessed meaningfully, so it's business as usual, guys." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: End of term update · [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=93) > "And parents, when the kids are on holiday, please keep asking them and just checking in with them that they are still touching sides with their friends." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student wellbeing and connection · [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=111) > "the children have asked if they are able to keep using the hangouts and the chats to have video conferencing and video chats with their friends from school, and that's an absolute yes. In fact, we strongly encourage that they do." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student wellbeing and connection · [02:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=122) > "I would like to encourage parents to keep forcing them to go outside and get some fresh air." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Student wellbeing and connection · [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=149) > "The biggest thing is that parents are very scared that they're going to be stuck with their kids for four weeks locked in a small space and they're not going to have anything to do." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=159) > "Mr. Moody is doing revision with the grade twelves, especially on the first terms work so that they're not losing all the work and effort they've put in." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Matric preparation · [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=204) > "he's going to be doing some data handling with the grade nines to elevens using real data and statistics on the COVID. So it's not just a, a theoretical, there's something real that's happening so they can actually see data and statistics in action." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=214) > "Mr. Butler, Mr. Arquette, and Mr. Morrison have created a music Google Classroom and have started issuing house challenges to people who are on that group," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=228) > "I'll be checking in with the robotics club because we've got our WRO specs and challenges for this year, and even if it happens a bit later, we'll still have the same challenges." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=254) > "I'm going to do some online coaching and teaching with the investment club for the Ellen Gray Investment Competition that some of the senior kids have started this year with Mr. Tumo." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=263) > "Miss and Mrs. van Skalkwijk would like the kids to still hear Afrikaans during the holidays and have lined up a whole lot of movies that will be available for them to be able to watch," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=272) > "myself, Mr. Aitchison, will be doing SBAs with the life orientation students. There's some physical activity they need to do and record, also pushing a little bit of community service if they can be creative during the holidays," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [04:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=290) > "we thought it would be a good idea to formalize this by creating some form of a, a time capsule project. The idea would be that the children get to express their feelings and their experiences in a medium of their choice, and then they display this time capsule in the reception when we all get back to school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 time capsule project · [05:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=321) > "Very simply, all the submissions would be given extra credits to the subject most relevant to their chosen medium when we get back to school. For example, a poem would be assigned points for, for English or for language. A Lego build would be assigned points for technology." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 time capsule project · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=371) > "Best examples from each grade would be chosen for the display, and then house points given to those as well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 time capsule project · [06:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=396) > "So the idea behind this project would be to capture the mood, the feeling, the experience of what we've all gone through at this time, because we are going to be talking about it for many, many years to come." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: COVID-19 time capsule project · [06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=402) > "We're on track for finishing the curriculum, keeping people busy, keeping them out of their parents' hair, and keeping them stimulated." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: End of term update · [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=419) > "I don't want students to think that the work that they're going to be doing during the holidays is punishment. It's not at all. I think it's irresponsible not to do something to keep all the hard work we've done in the last three and a half weeks alive." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=428) > "You're also still going to have a lot of downtime and relax time. This is not as rigorous and stressful as a normal school day, but we do need to keep your brains occupied and busy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Holiday learning plans · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=447) > "Regardless of being at home, even if you're at school right now, you would be working through this holiday. There is a lot to get done." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Matric preparation · [07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=462) > "For the rest of the school, just keep doing what you're doing. Maintain your reading and your typing. Keep going on those Udemy courses. So guys, if you finish one Udemy course, don't be afraid to go and tackle another one." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=473) > "A great example of this is our Udemy queen, Hannah, in grade eight, who has, I think, to date, done around about 18 courses," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=490) > "So far, I've finished 18 courses. These courses range from business studies to math to beauty and even dance. I guess you could say I'm a little obsessed." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Udemy online courses · [08:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=510) > "I like the diversity of the courses, the fact that I have plenty options to choose from, and they give me insight into what I could do in terms of my future career." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Udemy online courses · [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=527) > "I really have a passion for business, and I want to pursue a career in business when I'm older. I want to understand how businesses run, what makes them tick." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Udemy online courses · [09:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=540) > "Something I feel I need to tell everyone is that the Udemy courses aren't there just for that certificate. Instead, these courses help you understand what you are learning, and if you need any help from a teacher or for them to add comments onto your notes, all you need to do is ask for the help." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Udemy online courses · [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=556) > "You certainly don't have to fly past a topic and act like you have everything under control, because I don't." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Udemy online courses · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988458_high.mp3#t=575) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Wrapping up for Term 1 and the preparation for Term 2 Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 Vox Pops - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-04-06-covid-19-vox-pops/ - Date: 2020-04-06 (as at 2020-04-06) - Themes: Learning from home in lockdown, Independence and time management, Missing friends, Connectivity challenges, Teaching online, Uncertainty about the future - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988459 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This short vox pop episode from Education Incorporated, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, gathers brief reactions from pupils and teachers to learning from home during the Covid-19 lockdown. The voices are mostly unnamed. Pupils describe working at their own pace, gaining independence and responsibility, and enjoying extra sleep. They also name the problems: slow Wi-Fi and laptops, and missing their friends. Teachers describe learning new online platforms and needing more preparation. They say most learners are embracing online teaching. Several speakers frame the period as uncertain but historic. **Key ideas** - Several pupils say learning from home lets them work at their own pace and in their own time, and some say they get work done faster. ([00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=11) [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=44) [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=100) [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=199)) - Pupils say the arrangement builds independence, responsibility and time management, while one admits it is uncomfortable to be accountable for doing the work yourself. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=157) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=242) [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=294) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=313)) - Missing friends and social interaction is the challenge most often named by pupils. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=162) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=254) [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=275)) - Connectivity is a recurring obstacle. One speaker says learners are always able to catch up thanks to technology. ([00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=184)) - Teachers describe learning new online platforms and needing greater preparation, and they report that most learners are embracing online teaching. ([05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=307) [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=323) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=335) [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=360)) - One speaker argues that what makes school beneficial is not where or when it takes place but a willingness to learn. ([01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=89) [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=96)) - Speakers frame the lockdown as both scary and exciting, and as a period of history they are part of. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=71) [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=401) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=430)) **Lessons** - Pupils report that asynchronous help works: one leaves a message for the teacher in the group and gets a reply when the teacher can. ([00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22) [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=143)) - A teacher notes that online classes move quicker, so they require more preparation than a usual class. ([05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=307)) - Reliable connectivity and devices matter. Speakers name slow Wi-Fi, slow laptops and lost connections as their main practical difficulty. ([00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22) [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=184)) - Pupils say social contact is the hardest thing to replace when school moves online. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=162) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=254) [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=275)) **Who it's for:** Parents, pupils and teachers curious about how pupils and staff at Education Incorporated experienced moving lessons online during the 2020 lockdown, and anyone weighing the benefits and difficulties of remote learning. **Facts stated in the episode** - Emma, one of the speakers, says she is in grade eight. ([00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=11)) - One pupil says learning from home means waking at half past six instead of quarter to five. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=60)) - One speaker says they belong to a university that specializes in distance learning. ([06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=414)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What did pupils like most about learning from home during lockdown?** A: Pupils mention working at their own pace and in their own time, and getting work done faster. They also mention waking up later, fewer distractions and more sleep. ([00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=11) [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=60) [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=65) [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=199) [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=351)) **Q: What were the biggest challenges of online schooling for pupils?** A: Pupils mainly name slow Wi-Fi or laptops and missing friends. One says their biggest challenge is not getting hugs from friends. ([00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22) [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=162) [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=254) [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=275)) **Q: How did teachers find teaching online during Covid-19?** A: Teachers describe learning new online platforms and finding a relaxed atmosphere with fewer interruptions. They say it requires more preparation. One says most learners are embracing it. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=124) [05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=307) [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=323) [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=335)) **Q: Does remote learning help pupils become more independent?** A: Several pupils say it taught them independence, responsibility and time management. One says it will help them in the future workplace. ([02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=157) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=242) [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=294)) **Q: How did pupils get help from teachers when learning remotely?** A: One pupil leaves a message for the teacher in the group and gets a reply when the teacher can. Another says video calls let them interact with teachers. ([00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=44) [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=143)) **Q: Were pupils worried about the lockdown?** A: Some were. One found it getting worrying that the whole world was going on lockdown, one was worried about the matric dance, and another found the unknown scary but exciting. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=71) [06:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=393)) **Q: Do pupils prefer typing to writing by hand?** A: Two pupils say they prefer computers. They find working on laptops easier and neater, and say they can type faster than they write. ([04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=260) [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=369)) ### Passage: Opening voices: working quickly, Wi-Fi and sleep [00:10-01:10, 168 words] Note (AI): Pupils give their first reactions to learning from home: working in their own time, Wi-Fi trouble, video calls with teachers and extra sleep. Emma, intro voice or played clip [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=10): > Hi, my name is Emma. I'm in grade eight and my workday about studying at home with our consumer friends and my favorite thing is that I get my work done quickly and in my own time. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22): > My biggest challenge was my Wi-Fi. You can work individually and it's actually easier to get teachers help. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=32): > I'm grateful for this opportunity to be exposed to this type of teaching. One only reads about this. Now we are doing it. I'd say this sort of self-studying thing Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=41): > has assisted me very well. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=44): > Also the video calling is cool because then you can interact with the teachers and you can actually get work done faster when you're on video calls. My worst challenge is that I can't see my friends in Oxford teach us questions personally. But the greatest thing about it is waking up late at half past six instead of quarter to five. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=65): > I have never had this much sleep in my whole entire life and I love it. ### Passage: Uncertainty, willingness to learn and self-paced work [01:11-02:41, 254 words] Note (AI): Pupils and teachers weigh the fear of the unknown against the chance to learn at their own pace, take responsibility and ask teachers for help. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=71): > It's scary because of the unknown and not knowing what to expect for the future of the students and for the teachers. But it's also exciting because being a part of amazing change in society, education and simply the way of thinking about things. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=89): > School is important and what really makes it beneficial is not just where or when it takes place, it is you being willing to learn and that's what matters. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=100): > I'm getting a lot more done, like things are going a lot faster than they usually would. I can't wait to see everyone when we are back. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=111): > I can eat and do whatever I want when and where I want as long as I'm online. I enjoy being alone a lot, so if I'm wanting my personal space, I can just leave the call or chat or whatever. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=124): > I'm enjoying it. it's, it's a wonderful relaxed atmosphere in which to work. We have limited interruptions, which makes it great. discipline is, is definitely a lot easier. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=137): > It's just nicer for me. Some lessons, most of my lessons, I have music playing around in the background. If I have no work and I'm all caught up, I watch some educational videos on how to do art or everything I didn't know. If I don't understand something, I leave a message for the said teacher in the group, and they get back to me whenever they can. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=157): > It allows me to take responsibility for my work and work on my time management skills. ### Passage: Connectivity, pace and missing friends [03:04-04:40, 240 words] Note (AI): The trade-offs are set side by side here: connectivity loss, freedom to work at their own pace, fewer distractions, and the lack of social contact. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=184): > Most of the challenges are basically to deal with the loss of connectivity especially on the side of the learners from time to time. But again thanks to technology the learners are always able to catch up. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=199): > What I really enjoy is being able to work at my own pace. Being able to stay at home it's very relaxing. You can wake up a bit later. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=208): > What I like about it is definitely being able to take responsibility and having the independence. Emma, intro voice or played clip [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=215): > If my laptop's slow or the internet's slow it's quite difficult. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=222): > So far, online schooling has been amazing for me. I do miss students Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=228): > chatting at break time, listen to snippets of different conversations, and do admittedly miss the excited gamers. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=237): > I feel like I, I get less distracted from other students. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=242): > It's taught me independence and how to manage my time quickly. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=247): > It's challenged myself to do things that I wouldn't normally do, and I'm actually really enjoying it. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=254): > For me, the, the largest challenge has been the lack of social interaction with the students. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=260): > I like working on laptops, it's much easier than, wr- than writing, and it's also a lot neater, so it helps. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=266): > I do enjoy the freedom of it. I feel like I can work at my pace. But I do miss seeing my Emma, intro voice or played clip [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=272): > friends, like I, I do miss them. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=275): > My biggest challenge right now is not getting hugs from my friends. ### Passage: Closing reflections: making history with Education Incorporated [06:00-07:15, 199 words] Note (AI): Teachers and pupils close with reflections on new ways to teach, worries about the lockdown, and seeing this period as history. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=360): > We have taken learning to a whole new level. It has been fun and exciting learning new ways to teach, learn, and be in contact. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=369): > You know, I really do like this, cause I'm better with computers than I am with writing, and I can type much faster than writing. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=377): > It's kind of getting a bit worrying that the whole world's going on lockdown. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=382): > The fact that we're having a lockdown doesn't really affect me that much, because I'm normally in my room anyway. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=390): > We will get to the end of it, just like everything else. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=393): > I'm worried about our metric dance at the moment, but other than that, it's been really nice. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=401): > I must say that I am glad to be part of this period of history with Education Incorporated. Embracing the challenges and the unexpected, viva la mathematics. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=414): > I have been fortunate that I belong to a university that specializes in distance learning and have now been fortunate to be accommodated by a school such as Education Incorporated that has dealt with this situation in such an efficient manner. We are all making history. You'll remember this for your children one day because they're gonna ask you. ### Quotes > "I have never had this much sleep in my whole entire life and I love it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=65) > "it is you being willing to learn and that's what matters." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=96) > "It's taught me independence and how to manage my time quickly." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=242) > "My biggest challenge right now is not getting hugs from my friends." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=275) > "I don't pack lunch at school, and now I'm constantly well-fed." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=303) > "You are accountable for your actions." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=317) > "In a way, things are less stressful, simply because there are less distractions." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [05:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=351) > "We will get to the end of it, just like everything else." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=390) > "We are all making history. You'll remember this for your children one day because they're gonna ask you." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=430) ### Claims > "I'm in grade eight and my workday about studying at home with our consumer friends and my favorite thing is that I get my work done quickly and in my own time." >, Emma, intro voice or played clip · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [00:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=11) > "My biggest challenge was my Wi-Fi. You can work individually and it's actually easier to get teachers help." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Connectivity challenges · [00:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=22) > "I'm grateful for this opportunity to be exposed to this type of teaching. One only reads about this. Now we are doing it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=32) > "Also the video calling is cool because then you can interact with the teachers and you can actually get work done faster when you're on video calls." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=44) > "But the greatest thing about it is waking up late at half past six instead of quarter to five." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=60) > "It's scary because of the unknown and not knowing what to expect for the future of the students and for the teachers. But it's also exciting because being a part of amazing change in society, education and simply the way of thinking about things." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Uncertainty about the future · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=71) > "School is important and what really makes it beneficial is not just where or when it takes place, it is you being willing to learn and that's what matters." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=89) > "I'm getting a lot more done, like things are going a lot faster than they usually would. I can't wait to see everyone when we are back." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=100) > "I can eat and do whatever I want when and where I want as long as I'm online. I enjoy being alone a lot, so if I'm wanting my personal space, I can just leave the call or chat or whatever." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=111) > "I'm enjoying it. it's, it's a wonderful relaxed atmosphere in which to work. We have limited interruptions, which makes it great. discipline is, is definitely a lot easier." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=124) > "If I have no work and I'm all caught up, I watch some educational videos on how to do art or everything I didn't know. If I don't understand something, I leave a message for the said teacher in the group, and they get back to me whenever they can." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=143) > "It allows me to take responsibility for my work and work on my time management skills." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=157) > "I do miss my friends a lot, and it, it, it's It's a little bit hard knowing that I may not be able to see them for longer than expected cause we don't know what might happen." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Missing friends · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=162) > "I love working from home even though that we're in lockdown and we've been forced to stay at home. I'm actually fine with it because then also I get to spend time with my dog." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=172) > "Most of the challenges are basically to deal with the loss of connectivity especially on the side of the learners from time to time. But again thanks to technology the learners are always able to catch up." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Connectivity challenges · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=184) > "What I really enjoy is being able to work at my own pace. Being able to stay at home it's very relaxing." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [03:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=199) > "So far, online schooling has been amazing for me. I do miss students" >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=222) > "It's challenged myself to do things that I wouldn't normally do, and I'm actually really enjoying it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=247) > "For me, the, the largest challenge has been the lack of social interaction with the students." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Missing friends · [04:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=254) > "I like working on laptops, it's much easier than, wr- than writing, and it's also a lot neater, so it helps." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [04:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=260) > "I really enjoy working from home. I feel this approach to teaching really accommodates not only the children's individual needs and pace, but also the educators." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=282) > "So far, I'm really enjoying the independence and being able to work on different platforms, and I think it will really help us in the future in the workplace." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [04:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=294) > "It requires greater preparation, more than a usual class, because things go a lot quicker." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [05:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=307) > "It's quite uncomfortable because you have to actually do the work yourself. You are accountable for your actions." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Independence and time management · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=313) > "Most learners are embracing the online teaching, therefore making this a positive experience for me." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=323) > "I actually kind of think more than I do in, like, actual school, and I kind of get things more than in actual school." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=329) > "It's introduced me to a whole lot of new online platforms that I can use to teach my lessons." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=335) > "We have taken learning to a whole new level. It has been fun and exciting learning new ways to teach, learn, and be in contact." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=360) > "You know, I really do like this, cause I'm better with computers than I am with writing, and I can type much faster than writing." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [06:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=369) > "The fact that we're having a lockdown doesn't really affect me that much, because I'm normally in my room anyway." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Learning from home in lockdown · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=382) > "I'm worried about our metric dance at the moment, but other than that, it's been really nice." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Uncertainty about the future · [06:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=393) > "I must say that I am glad to be part of this period of history with Education Incorporated. Embracing the challenges and the unexpected, viva la mathematics." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=401) > "I have been fortunate that I belong to a university that specializes in distance learning and have now been fortunate to be accommodated by a school such as Education Incorporated that has dealt with this situation in such an efficient manner." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Teaching online · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988459_high.mp3#t=414) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) We spoke to teachers and pupils about their experiences of school-at-home Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 Pupil and Teacher Feedback - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-04-06-covid-19-pupil-and-teacher-feedback/ - Date: 2020-04-06 (as at 2020-04-06) - Host: Gershom Aitchison, Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: School at home in lockdown, Pupil and teacher feedback, Human connection and isolation, Control during uncertainty, Independence and time management, Online learning challenges - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988460 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) In this lockdown update, Gavin asks Gershom and Jacqueline Aitchison of Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, what has changed now that South Africa is in national lockdown. Gershom says the goal is unchanged: school continues, pupils are assessed and are promoted. Jacqueline gives advice for families now all at home and sets out guidelines on focusing on what can be controlled. The hosts summarise their conversations with pupils and teachers. Pupils enjoy the independence and self-pacing, while missing friends and quick teacher contact. The episode ends with short clips from pupils and teachers in their own words. **Key ideas** - Gershom says the school's goal is unchanged: school is happening, pupils will be assessed through the year and promoted to the next grade. ([00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=46) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=68)) - Jacqueline says lockdown puts the whole family at home. Pupils should keep a school space and normal hours, and parents should stay out of the virtual classroom. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=98) [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=129) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=138)) - Gershom reports that pupils enjoy the independence but find being alone hard. He urges video calls rather than WhatsApp chat so they actually see each other. ([02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=154) [02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=171) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=185)) - Jacqueline names the underestimated difficulty: losing quick contact with teachers to clarify tasks. Teachers miss their colleagues too. ([03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=216) [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=232)) - The hosts report that pupils like self-pacing and sleeping later. The fast pace of online platforms is a consistent downside. ([04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=272) [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=288) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=303)) - Jacqueline's guidelines start from accepting what cannot be controlled, then focus on schoolwork, exercise, positive online relationships and reaching out to teachers. ([06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=414) [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459) [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=491) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=509) [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=518) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=532)) - In the clips, pupils describe gaining responsibility, time management and accountability, while missing friends. ([11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=710) [13:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=829) [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=848) [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=866)) - Teachers in the clips mention connectivity problems, greater preparation, new platforms and a sense of making history. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=737) [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=861) [14:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=889) [16:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=984)) **Focusing on what you can control during lockdown** ([06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=414) [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459) [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=491) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=509) [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=518) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=532)) 1. Start by understanding what you can do nothing about: the virus beyond staying home, the economy, others ignoring lockdown, others' fears. 2. Recognise where your own stresses come from and forgive yourself for feeling overwhelmed. 3. Focus on what you can control now: schoolwork, how you prepare, implement and complete it. 4. Get exercise to help your brain get through stressful times. 5. Keep online relationships positive and supportive; avoid negative ones. 6. Reach out individually to teachers through one-on-one hangouts when you need help. 7. Be patient with each other, remembering everyone has personal fears. **Lessons** - Jacqueline advises keeping a dedicated school space and normal school hours at home, and asks parents not to sit in on lessons. ([02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=129) [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=138)) - Gershom recommends seeing friends' faces on video calls rather than only messaging, because people crave connection. ([02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=171) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=185)) - Gershom asks families to be patient, share frustrations with teachers and give feedback on which platforms work. ([01:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=81)) - Jacqueline suggests accepting what is outside your control and putting energy into schoolwork, exercise and supportive relationships. ([07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459) [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=491) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=509) [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=518)) - Gershom frames time at home as a chance to learn how you work best and what your strengths and weaknesses are. ([07:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=438)) **Who it's for:** Parents, pupils and teachers at Edu Inc adjusting to school at home during lockdown. Also useful to other school leaders and educators who want candid first-hand feedback on what works and what is hard in remote schooling. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom and Jacqueline spoke with the grade eights, nines, elevens and twelves on Friday, and with all the teachers. ([02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=144)) - One pupil says school at home means waking at half past six instead of quarter to five. ([10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=609)) - One contributor belongs to a university that specialises in distance learning. ([16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=967)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Will Edu Inc pupils still be assessed and promoted during the Covid-19 lockdown?** A: Gershom says yes: school is happening, pupils will be assessed throughout the year, and they will finish the year and be promoted to the next grade. He says the system is working despite some curveballs. ([00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=46) [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=68)) **Q: How should families set up school at home when everyone is home during lockdown?** A: Jacqueline says pupils should have a dedicated space for school, sit at their desk at normal school time and follow their daily schedule. Parents should not be in the virtual classroom. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=98) [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=129)) **Q: What do pupils like and dislike about online schooling?** A: The hosts report that pupils enjoy the independence, working at their own pace and waking up later. They miss classmates and quick contact with teachers, and find the pace of online platforms fast. ([02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=154) [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=216) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=272) [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=288) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=303)) **Q: How can children cope with isolation from friends during lockdown?** A: Gershom recommends face-to-face video calls, such as Hangouts, rather than only WhatsApp chat. He says human beings crave connection and seeing people is very important. ([02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=171) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=185)) **Q: How can pupils manage stress about things outside their control?** A: Jacqueline says to accept what you cannot change, recognise your stresses and forgive yourself for being overwhelmed. Then focus on schoolwork, exercise, positive online relationships and reaching out to teachers. ([07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459) [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=491) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=509) [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=518) [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=532)) **Q: What challenges are teachers facing with online teaching?** A: Teachers in the clips mention learners losing connectivity, greater preparation because things go quicker, and missing students' break-time chatter. They also mention learning new online platforms. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=737) [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=780) [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=861) [14:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=889)) **Q: What are the school leaders doing during lockdown?** A: Gershom says they are planning and talking to other schools, especially government schools they have relationships with. Jacqueline adds they are giving pointers and training to other schools. ([05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=338) [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=391)) ### Passage: What lockdown changes and what stays the same [00:44-02:23, 339 words] Note (AI): The hosts restate the school's commitment to assessment and promotion and give practical rules for pupils and parents now that whole families are at home. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=44): > Gavin, I think the most important thing is that our goal has not changed, and that is that school is happening, our students are going to be assessed throughout the year, and that the students are going to finish the year and be promoted to the next grade. One of the biggest questions that a lot of learners are asking right now stems from uncertainty about what school looks like, what education looks like. And what I can say is that we've got this. The system that we're using at the moment for online schooling or schooling at home is working. I mentioned at the very beginning that there'll be a few curveballs and we, we build in this aeroplane while we're flying it. But the aeroplane is flying, and I think everyone needs to be a little bit patient with things that aren't working, communicate some of those frustrations, specifically with the teachers in the classroom, and give feedback on what platforms are working very, very well in terms of getting content across, in terms of learning, and then in terms of expressing that learning has been done. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=98): > What has changed, since we've gone into lockdown now is that the whole family's at home. When we started the online schooling, in many cases, it was just the children who were at home and having to do the online schooling without the interruptions or, distractions of other people in the house. Now everybody's at home. Now everybody's in lockdown and everybody's trying to work. So that has definitely changed, and the only message there is to reiterate the points we put across in the first podcast, and that's just to say you have a space at home. That is school from home. Sit down, be at your desk at the normal time for school. Let's get through your daily schedule. And for the parents, you are not in the classroom when the children are at school, so please don't be in the classroom when your children are at home. ### Passage: Pupils missing peers and quick teacher contact [02:24-04:12, 358 words] Note (AI): Reports first-hand feedback from pupils and teachers, and names the unexpected difficulty: losing face-to-face connection and quick answers from teachers. Gershom Aitchison, host [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=144): > Jax and I also had a conversation with the grade eights, the grade nines, the grade elevens, and grade twelves. We managed to connect with them on Friday, and we've connected with all the teachers. And the common theme is that a lot of people are enjoying working at home. They're enjoying the independence, but they are finding being alone quite a challenge. They're missing their classmates, they're missing their peers. And I think the most important thing, the message that I'd like to give right now is find time to have some face time with people, not just chatting in WhatsApp. Pull them up on a hangout or something like that and actually see their faces, talk to them. Make comments on what their hair looks like and, you know, the teddy bears behind them on their bed, et cetera. I think human beings crave that connection, and I think being able to see people is very, very important, not just chatting and hearing them on WhatsApps and chat rooms. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=193): > So the novelty is worn off. It's down to hard work now. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [03:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=197): > Absolutely. There was a lot of excitement when we started this process, both from the, the students and the teachers, and while there is still a lot of excitement at how well it is actually working, The reality of the situation is setting in, and the reality of the situation is that there are unexpected hard bits, and the unexpected hard bits is the underestimation of how important that contact, that quick contact time with the teacher is, being able to just establish the where or the why of a specific task or when it needs to be done by. It's, it's just more difficult at the moment. We don't get the quick answers necessarily as we would when we were at school. So the students are definitely feeling that, and I, I believe the teachers are feeling that too, that lack of connection with their colleagues as well. At this point in the process, what's really, really important is to maintain as much connection as possible to facilitate the process as positively as possible. ### Passage: Summary of pupil and teacher feedback [04:27-05:24, 212 words] Note (AI): A compact summary of what pupils and teachers like and find hard: independence, self-pacing, sleeping later, and the fast pace of online platforms. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=267): > The biggest message that I'm getting back from most of the students is that they are fundamentally enjoying this process. They're enjoying the independence of working from home, and while some of them might feel a bit challenged with the lack of contact with their teachers, they are really enjoying working at their own pace. If they get the work done quickly, the work's done. If they need a little bit of time, that they can take their time to do it. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=288): > One of the downsides that we've heard coming across quite consistently between students and teachers is the fast pace of learning on these online platforms that they are required to use. They are also saying that they're enjoying the process of upskilling. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=303): > A big plus for all the students has been that they can wake up later. That time that they would spend in the traffic, they are now being able to spend in their beds, and in the afternoons they can spend on their own personal leisure time. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=315): > Well, let's be honest, that's a plus for the teachers as well. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=317): > One of the biggest challenges on the flip side is making sure you're out of bed in time for class, even if you arrive in there in your pajamas. ### Passage: How the school leaders are spending lockdown [05:27-06:53, 282 words] Note (AI): Shows how the leadership uses the time: planning, supporting and training other schools, including government schools, and staying in touch with pupils. Gershom Aitchison, host [05:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=327): > Gavin, I'm enjoying working at home, being able to work on the business and not necessarily in the business at the moment. There's a lot of macro stuff that we're busy looking at, planning for, talking about. We're spending a lot of our time talking to other schools who are really challenged at the moment, especially government schools that we have relationships with. I'm also spending time catching up on some reading and podcasts, which in our day-to-day running around as busy as we are, we don't get to do, and it's important for looking into the future and understanding what space we're operating in at the moment. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=359): > There are odd dichotomies that we haven't been faced with before, where working from home but still being at school can be a little disconcerting at times, but If there's one constant, when you run a school, you're constantly adapting to change. Change is inevitable, and it happens almost every day. So, so that hasn't really changed too much for us, constantly facing the challenges as they come up. But as Gersh said, we are enjoying the extra headspace that this has provided where we're not sitting in meetings every day, but we are able to actually connect with other schools, help them out, give them a few pointers, do a bit of training with them, have conversations with them. We miss our kids. It's important for us to have our, our hangouts chats with them and to see their faces because we are very used to seeing them every day and touching base with them, and we're not getting that at the moment. Obviously, we hope to see them again very, very soon. ### Passage: Guidelines for focusing on what you can control [06:54-09:22, 460 words] Note (AI): Jacqueline sets out a step-by-step list of what pupils cannot control and what they can, with concrete coping actions. Gavin, intro voice or played clip [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=414): > We always talk about the children understanding what's in their control and what isn't. Yeah. This feels like an extreme example of that. Sure. So what are your guidelines? Gershom Aitchison, host [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=423): > So one of the things that we talk to kids about a lot is about exerting control and understanding what they can control and what they can't control. And I think while it's very challenging at the moment to be sitting at home in a situation like this, and not just a national situation, but an international situation, is it's a great opportunity for introspection, for self-understanding, and analyzing how you work best, what your strengths and weaknesses are, without the noise and distraction of what's happening in the classroom. Mrs. Aitchison's got some good tips and ideas on how to exercise that control and, and feel that things are actually happening the way that they should. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459): > The departure point on this is always to understand what we can do nothing about. And the reality of the situation is that we can do nothing about the virus other than stay at home, and all of us are already doing that. None of us can do anything about the economy right now. It's not under our control. We can't do anything about the people who are ignoring the lockdown and possibly prolonging our isolation, and we can't be responsible for how others are experiencing this and for their fears or anxieties. But we can recognize where our own stresses are coming from, and we can actually forgive ourselves for being a little overwhelmed sometimes. We can focus on what we can control right now, which is the schoolwork. We can control the schoolwork, how we prepare it, how we implement it, and how we actually get it done. We can make sure that we're getting exercise so that our brain is releasing the correct serotonin and dopamine and all those other little things that help us get through stressful times. To be constructive in all of our online relationships, in other words, we can keep them positive and supportive and helpful of each other and beware and not engage in relationships that are negative and perhaps drag us down. We can reach out individually to teachers when we need help on things. One-on-one hangouts are there for us, we can use them whenever we want. We can be patient with each other and that we can understand that we all have personal fears, we are all worried about our families, financial situations, and what this means for the future, never forgetting that you, our students, are always our priority. Finally, you can always reach out to your teachers and ourselves for help or for support or for perspective whenever you need it. ### Passage: Pupils and teachers on independence and missing friends [13:00-14:42, 268 words] Note (AI): A run of short first-hand clips that captures the mixed experience of school at home in the pupils' and teachers' own words. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=780): > I do miss students chatting at break time, listening to snippets of different conversations, and do admittedly miss the excited gamers. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=790): > I feel like I, I get less distracted from other students. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=795): > It's taught me independence and how to manage my time correctly. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=800): > It's challenged myself to do things that I wouldn't normally do and I'm actually really enjoying it. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=807): > For me the the largest challenge has been the lack of social interaction with the students. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=813): > I like working on laptops, it's much easier than than writing and it's also a lot neater so it helps. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=820): > I do enjoy the freedom of it, I feel like I can work at my pace, but I do miss seeing my friends, like Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=827): > I I do miss them. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=829): > My biggest challenge right now is not getting hugs from my friends. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=836): > I really enjoy working from home. I feel this approach to teaching really accommodates not only the children's individual needs and pace, but also the educators. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [14:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=847): > So far, I'm really enjoying the independence and being able to work on different platforms, and I think it will really help us in the future in the workplace. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=857): > I don't pack lunch at school, and now I'm constantly well-fed. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=861): > It requires greater preparation, more than a usual class, because things go a lot quicker. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=866): > It's quite uncomfortable because you have to actually do the work yourself. You are accountable for your actions. It's a really fun thing that we could do, and I look forward to keep doing it. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=876): > Most learners are embracing the online teaching, therefore making this a positive experience for me. ### Quotes > "we build in this aeroplane while we're flying it. But the aeroplane is flying," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=76) > "you are not in the classroom when the children are at school, so please don't be in the classroom when your children are at home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=138) > "I think human beings crave that connection," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=185) > "when you run a school, you're constantly adapting to change. Change is inevitable, and it happens almost every day." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=371) > "we can actually forgive ourselves for being a little overwhelmed sometimes." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=495) > "I have never had this much sleep in my whole entire life, and I love it." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [10:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=618) > "what really makes it beneficial is not just where or when it takes place, it is you being willing to learn, and that's what matters." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=644) > "My biggest challenge right now is not getting hugs from my friends." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [13:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=829) > "We have taken learning to a whole new level." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=914) > "I must say that I am glad to be part of this period of history with Education Incorporated." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=954) > "We are all making history. You remember this for your children one day because they're gonna ask you." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [16:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=984) ### Claims > "our goal has not changed, and that is that school is happening, our students are going to be assessed throughout the year, and that the students are going to finish the year and be promoted to the next grade." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=46) > "The system that we're using at the moment for online schooling or schooling at home is working. I mentioned at the very beginning that there'll be a few curveballs and we, we build in this aeroplane while we're flying it." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=68) > "everyone needs to be a little bit patient with things that aren't working, communicate some of those frustrations, specifically with the teachers in the classroom, and give feedback on what platforms are working very, very well" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning challenges · [01:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=81) > "What has changed, since we've gone into lockdown now is that the whole family's at home. When we started the online schooling, in many cases, it was just the children who were at home" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=98) > "you have a space at home. That is school from home. Sit down, be at your desk at the normal time for school. Let's get through your daily schedule. And for the parents, you are not in the classroom when the children are at school, so please don't be in the classroom when your children are at home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [02:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=129) > "Jax and I also had a conversation with the grade eights, the grade nines, the grade elevens, and grade twelves. We managed to connect with them on Friday, and we've connected with all the teachers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=144) > "the common theme is that a lot of people are enjoying working at home. They're enjoying the independence, but they are finding being alone quite a challenge. They're missing their classmates, they're missing their peers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [02:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=154) > "find time to have some face time with people, not just chatting in WhatsApp. Pull them up on a hangout or something like that and actually see their faces, talk to them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Human connection and isolation · [02:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=171) > "I think human beings crave that connection, and I think being able to see people is very, very important, not just chatting and hearing them on WhatsApps and chat rooms." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Human connection and isolation · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=185) > "So the novelty is worn off. It's down to hard work now." >, Gavin, intro voice or played clip · topic: School at home in lockdown · [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=193) > "the unexpected hard bits is the underestimation of how important that contact, that quick contact time with the teacher is, being able to just establish the where or the why of a specific task or when it needs to be done by." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning challenges · [03:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=216) > "We don't get the quick answers necessarily as we would when we were at school. So the students are definitely feeling that, and I, I believe the teachers are feeling that too, that lack of connection with their colleagues as well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Human connection and isolation · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=232) > "They're enjoying the independence of working from home, and while some of them might feel a bit challenged with the lack of contact with their teachers, they are really enjoying working at their own pace." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=272) > "One of the downsides that we've heard coming across quite consistently between students and teachers is the fast pace of learning on these online platforms that they are required to use." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Online learning challenges · [04:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=288) > "A big plus for all the students has been that they can wake up later. That time that they would spend in the traffic, they are now being able to spend in their beds," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=303) > "We're spending a lot of our time talking to other schools who are really challenged at the moment, especially government schools that we have relationships with." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=338) > "If there's one constant, when you run a school, you're constantly adapting to change. Change is inevitable, and it happens almost every day." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=370) > "we are able to actually connect with other schools, help them out, give them a few pointers, do a bit of training with them, have conversations with them." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: School at home in lockdown · [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=391) > "it's a great opportunity for introspection, for self-understanding, and analyzing how you work best, what your strengths and weaknesses are, without the noise and distraction of what's happening in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [07:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=438) > "The departure point on this is always to understand what we can do nothing about. And the reality of the situation is that we can do nothing about the virus other than stay at home, and all of us are already doing that." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [07:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=459) > "But we can recognize where our own stresses are coming from, and we can actually forgive ourselves for being a little overwhelmed sometimes. We can focus on what we can control right now, which is the schoolwork." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [08:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=491) > "We can make sure that we're getting exercise so that our brain is releasing the correct serotonin and dopamine and all those other little things that help us get through stressful times." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=509) > "To be constructive in all of our online relationships, in other words, we can keep them positive and supportive and helpful of each other and beware and not engage in relationships that are negative and perhaps drag us down." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [08:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=518) > "We can reach out individually to teachers when we need help on things. One-on-one hangouts are there for us, we can use them whenever we want." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Control during uncertainty · [08:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=532) > "My biggest challenge was my Wi-Fi. You can work individually, and it's actually easier to get teachers' help." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=575) > "My worst challenge is that I can't see my friends and ask the teachers questions personally, but the greatest thing about it is waking up late at half past six instead of quarter to five." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=609) > "It's scary because of the unknown and not knowing what to expect for the future of the students and for the teachers, but it's also exciting because being a part of amazing change in society, education, and simply the way of thinking about things." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [10:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=624) > "School is important, and what really makes it beneficial is not just where or when it takes place, it is you being willing to learn, and that's what matters." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Independence and time management · [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=643) > "If I don't understand something, I leave a message for the said teacher in a group and they get back to me whenever they can." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Online learning challenges · [11:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=702) > "It allows me to take responsibility for my work and work on my time management skills." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Independence and time management · [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=710) > "Most of the challenges are basically to do with the loss of connectivity, especially on the side of the learners from time to time. But again, thanks to technology, the learners are always able to catch up." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Online learning challenges · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=737) > "I do miss students chatting at break time, listening to snippets of different conversations, and do admittedly miss the excited gamers." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Human connection and isolation · [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=780) > "I feel this approach to teaching really accommodates not only the children's individual needs and pace, but also the educators." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=838) > "I'm really enjoying the independence and being able to work on different platforms, and I think it will really help us in the future in the workplace." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Independence and time management · [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=848) > "It requires greater preparation, more than a usual class, because things go a lot quicker." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Online learning challenges · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=861) > "It's quite uncomfortable because you have to actually do the work yourself. You are accountable for your actions." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Independence and time management · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=866) > "It's introduced me to a whole lot of new online platforms that I can use to teach my lessons." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [14:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=889) > "I have been fortunate that I belong to a university that specializes in distance learning and have now been fortunate to be accommodated by a school such as Education Incorporated that has dealt with this situation in such an efficient manner." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: Pupil and teacher feedback · [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988460_high.mp3#t=967) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) We spoke to teachers and pupils about their experiences of school-at-home Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 SAMR EduTech Framework - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-03-30-covid-19-samr-edutech-framework/ - Date: 2020-03-30 (as at 2020-03-30) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Covid-19 remote schooling, SAMR EduTech framework, Online class etiquette, Student motivation and isolation, Udemy online courses, Parent support - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988461 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Recorded a week into Covid-19 remote schooling, this episode has an interviewer questioning Edu Inc's Jacqueline and Gershom Aitchison. Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, for Grades 4 to 12. They review the first week, set out ground rules for online classes, and anticipate falling motivation and pupil isolation. They then explain the SAMR model (substitution, augmentation, modification, redefinition) that guides the school's EduTech approach. Their examples include photographed maths answers, Google Classroom, and individual Udemy courses in languages, coding and photography. **Key ideas** - Gershom states the school's working maxim that digital education is not just digitizing an analog process. ([03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=230) [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=233)) - Gershom describes the SAMR model: substitution and augmentation form an enhancement phase, while modification and redefinition form a transformation phase, which the school prefers to work in. ([03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=242) [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=258)) - Gershom says substitution and augmentation still have a place, for example photographing handwritten senior maths and physics formulas. ([04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=282) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=295)) - Jacqueline defines redefinition as technology creating previously inconceivable tasks, such as one pupil learning Japanese through a Udemy course. ([06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=364) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377) [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=395)) - Jacqueline expects the honeymoon period to wear off and pupils to feel isolated, so the school plans to focus on social video hangouts. ([02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140) [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140) [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=162) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=185)) - Gershom sets basic online class rules: be punctual, stay focused, read the screen and communicate with teachers without badgering. ([00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=38) [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=46) [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=52) [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=67) [01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=75)) **SAMR model for EduTech** ([03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=242) [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=282) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=295) [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=312) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=340) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377)) 1. Substitution: replace an analog step digitally, e.g. photograph a handwritten maths formula and send it in. 2. Augmentation: do the same work on a digital platform with slight improvements, e.g. younger pupils doing maths digitally. 3. Modification: transform the task, e.g. running the entire class, tasks and learning outcomes in Google Classroom. 4. Redefinition: create previously inconceivable tasks, e.g. individual Udemy courses in underwater photography or Japanese. **Lessons** - Gershom argues that EduTech should aim at transforming how pupils learn and demonstrate knowledge, not merely copying analog processes online. ([03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=230) [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=258)) - Gershom advises that remote pupils treat the day as a normal school day, arriving punctually and closing other chats and windows. ([00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=46) [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=52)) - Gershom asks pupils to think before messaging teachers and to say things clearly rather than spamming comments. ([01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=75)) - Jacqueline suggests planning for isolation once the novelty wears off, by giving pupils regular video chats where they can see each other and staff. ([02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140) [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=185)) - Gershom encourages families to solve home-specific problems creatively and share the solutions with others. ([01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=90) [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=96)) **Who it's for:** This episode suits parents and pupils at Edu Inc adjusting to Covid-19 remote schooling. It will also help teachers and school leaders looking for a simple explanation of the SAMR EduTech model with practical classroom examples. **Facts stated in the episode** - Jacqueline says Tuesday was the last day of physical school and pupils were learning from home from Wednesday. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=21)) - Gershom names the SAMR model: substitution, augmentation, modification, redefinition. ([04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=242)) - Gershom says the school uses Google Classroom to run entire classes in a digital space. ([05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=312)) - Gershom says the school runs Udemy courses and its own online courses, including touch typing. ([02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=121)) - Jacqueline lists Udemy courses taken by individual pupils: Japanese, Russian, German, coding for gaming, iPhone photography and underwater photography. ([06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=395)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is the SAMR model in education?** A: Gershom explains it as substitution, augmentation, modification and redefinition. Substitution and augmentation sit in an enhancement phase, while modification and redefinition sit in a transformation phase. ([03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=242)) **Q: Can you give a simple example of substitution in SAMR?** A: The interviewer compares it to a bank emailing a document for you to print, sign and email back. Gershom gives the example of senior maths and physics pupils photographing handwritten formulas and sending them in. ([04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=282) [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=364)) **Q: What does redefinition look like in a school?** A: Jacqueline says it is technology allowing previously inconceivable tasks. Through Udemy courses, individual pupils learn Japanese, Russian, German, coding for gaming, underwater photography, and even a better relationship with a dog. ([06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377) [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=395) [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=407)) **Q: How did Edu Inc's first week of remote learning go?** A: Jacqueline says it went really well: school closed on Tuesday and pupils were home from Wednesday. Gershom reports good class attendance, lots of work done, and virtual morning staff meetings. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=21) [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=113)) **Q: What rules should students follow in online classes?** A: Gershom lists punctuality, focusing on the live class without other chats open, and reading the screen to do the right day's work. He also asks pupils to communicate clearly without badgering or spamming teachers. ([00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=46) [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=52) [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=67) [01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=75)) **Q: What challenges come after the first week of lockdown schooling?** A: Jacqueline expects the honeymoon period to wear off and motivation to need work. Pupils are also missing friends, shown by a rise in emails and WhatsApp requests for hangouts. ([02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140) [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=162)) **Q: How is the school addressing student isolation?** A: Jacqueline says they will put a big focus on hangout chats where pupils can see each other and staff, to keep social connectivity. ([03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=185)) **Q: Is the school's EduTech just a reaction to Covid-19?** A: The interviewer says implementing EduTech is not new and has been worked on for a while. Gershom says the focus from the beginning has been creating a framework for creativity and opportunities. ([03:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=201) [03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221)) ### Passage: Ground rules for the online school day [00:38-01:43, 258 words] Note (AI): It sets out the practical expectations for pupils: punctuality, focus, reading instructions, respectful communication with teachers and sharing solutions. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=38): > I think that people engaging in this process has been very positive. There are a couple of things that I think we need to do better, just basic things, and I'd like to just quickly go through those. The first is, it's very important that we all punctual for the class, we are running a normal school day. The second thing is, I think that it's very important that we are focusing on the class as it's happening, not having other chats open and other windows on your computer and things like that. I think it's also very important to read the screen, make sure that you're doing the work for the right day. And I know that sounds like a very simple thing, but if you're having a conversation with a teacher about trinomials and you're actually doing statistics, then let's get on the same page very quickly. It's also very important in the communication with the teachers and with each other that we follow a certain etiquette and not badger, harass, spam teachers with comments. Rather, think about what you want to say and say it clearly so that we get in the right answers. And the last thing is, none of us are sitting in your home, and there are little individual problems and challenges that you have that we can't solve for you. Use your imagination, be creative, share how you solved your problems with everybody so that if someone else is having the same problem, that they can get it solved as well. ### Passage: Honeymoon ending, isolation rising [02:20-03:20, 186 words] Note (AI): It anticipates the next phase of remote schooling, the drop in motivation and pupils missing friends, and explains the response of social video hangouts. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140): > I think what we can realistically expect is the honeymoon period perhaps wearing off, all this excitement will calm. We're going to go into a phase where we have to work on the motivation and maintaining the level of productivity that we've seen over the last few days doing the school from home. Another interesting thing that is coming up as we are moving into this new normal phase is that the children are starting to comment that they are missing their friends. So if I couple that with what we've seen, which is a huge uptick in emails to Gershom and myself to, WhatsApp's request for hangout meets, The children are starting to feel that sense of isolation, and I think that as we go into the maintenance of the, the motivation and the productivity, we have to really put quite a big focus on things like the, the hangouts chats, where kids can see each other, and they can see us, and we can have conversations to also try and just keep that social connectivity together. I think that's really important for our children. ### Passage: The SAMR model explained with school examples [03:41-06:03, 450 words] Note (AI): This is the core explanation of the school's EduTech framework. It walks through each of the four SAMR stages with a concrete classroom example. Gershom Aitchison, host [03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221): > From the very beginning, our focus on EduTech has been about creating a framework in which creativity and opportunities can come. And I think the, the basic maxim that we've been working from is that Digital education is not just digitizing an analog process. And yes, there are certain elements where that happens, and we'll discuss that, but the framework that we've used is the SAMR model. And essentially what it means is substitution, augmentation, modification, and redefinition. And the augmentation and substitution are sitting in an enhancement phase where modification and redefinition are in the transformation phase. And we'd really, really like to be working in the transformation, in other words, doing things differently, using technology to enhance the learning experience, enhance the experience of what happens in the classroom or how people acquire knowledge, et cetera, and more importantly, how they demonstrate that knowledge and the skills that they've acquired. But in saying that, there are places where substitution and augmentation do have a place. And as an example, in the senior maths and physics, where being able to type a complex formula and answers is difficult, it is easier to write it down, take a photograph of it, and send it in so the teacher can see what's going on and vice versa. Augmentation might be where the younger students don't have that difficulty in terms of the The formula that they need to write down, so they are still doing the maths and similar kind of problems, but they're doing it in a digital platform. So it's slightly augmenting the way that we're doing things. Then modification, where we start seeing the transformation taking place is in the Google Classroom, where the entire class is happening in that space, the way we approach the tasks, how we deliver on the learning outcomes, and that is happening in a digital space. It's taking the classroom into a virtual reality. And the final thing is the redefinition and doing things totally different. It allows for us to radically look at how we teach, how we learn. And how we're seeing it right now is doing Udemy courses, for example. You want to learn how to do underwater photography. There's no way that you're going to find that in Joburg for one person, where you can do that online and have that experience, or you want to learn Japanese. The course is there for you to do that. And that's one of the, the things that we're really excited about is showing the students that, and the parents as well, that learning can happen in a very different way. And it's very exciting to be in that space too. ### Passage: Substitution analogy and redefinition through Udemy [06:04-07:00, 177 words] Note (AI): It contrasts the lowest and highest SAMR levels and shows how individual online courses make previously impossible subjects available to single pupils. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=364): > So substitution is a lot like a bank emailing you a document, asking you to print it, sign it, and email it back to them. You've just substituted a paper document for an emailed paper document. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=373): > Correct. Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=373): > Will you elaborate on redefinition for us? Just make that a little bit clearer. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377): > This is technology which allows for the creation of new tasks which were previously inconceivable. Now, it's inconceivable for a school like ours to be able to hire a Japanese teacher, for example, to come in and teach one child that language. But allowing the, the children to do the Udemy courses then makes that conceivable. We can have everything from Japanese, Russian, German, one child on each course. We can have coding, coding for gaming. We can have iPhone photography, underwater photography. We've even got a child learning how to have a better relationship with his dog. You know, these are not conceivable in a school space. In, using this platform and this forum, they have become conceivable, and our children's skills level is increasing. ### Passage: Next steps and thanks to parents [07:07-08:01, 181 words] Note (AI): It restates the focus areas going forward and records parents' positive feedback on the remote school setup. Gershom Aitchison, host [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=427): > The first thing is be punctual. We have a schedule. Please be there for your class and announce yourself. Stay focused in the class on the task. Stay focused on what is happening and not be distracted by what's going on on other chats, et cetera. Please read the screen, read the instructions, follow the instructions carefully, and communicate effectively, with the teacher in terms of asking questions, don't badger, harass, etc. And on a final note, thanks to the parents for the support, getting the children into that virtual classroom space. Keep doing what you're doing, keep getting them to school so that we can do our job and teach them. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [07:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=461): > From my side, just to say thank you to the parents for being so incredibly supportive at this time. We've had some fantastic messages through from Facebook and from emails where parents are actually messaging us to tell us, how happy they are with things and the way they are going, and that's very meaningful to us, especially when we were working so hard to make this a success. ### Quotes > "we're all learning on a very steep curve, but it's going really, really well." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=34) > "Use your imagination, be creative, share how you solved your problems with everybody" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=96) > "You might be motivated to do it, but you're really motivated when the plane's on fire." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=213) > "The plane's on fire when it comes to EduTech." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=217) > "Digital education is not just digitizing an analog process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [03:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=233) > "It's taking the classroom into a virtual reality." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=325) > "learning can happen in a very different way. And it's very exciting to be in that space too." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=359) > "This is technology which allows for the creation of new tasks which were previously inconceivable." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377) > "We've even got a child learning how to have a better relationship with his dog." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=407) ### Claims > "We started out on Tuesday, that was our last day of school. From Wednesday, the kids were at home, and, I have to say that children and teachers have really impressed us." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 remote schooling · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=21) > "The first is, it's very important that we all punctual for the class, we are running a normal school day." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online class etiquette · [00:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=46) > "I think that it's very important that we are focusing on the class as it's happening, not having other chats open and other windows on your computer and things like that." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online class etiquette · [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=52) > "if you're having a conversation with a teacher about trinomials and you're actually doing statistics, then let's get on the same page very quickly." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online class etiquette · [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=67) > "It's also very important in the communication with the teachers and with each other that we follow a certain etiquette and not badger, harass, spam teachers with comments. Rather, think about what you want to say and say it clearly so that we get in the right answers." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Online class etiquette · [01:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=75) > "none of us are sitting in your home, and there are little individual problems and challenges that you have that we can't solve for you. Use your imagination, be creative, share how you solved your problems with everybody so that if someone else is having the same problem, that they can get it solved as well." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 remote schooling · [01:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=90) > "Having virtual staff meetings in the morning is quite new. The class attendance has been very, very good, and a lot of work is getting done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 remote schooling · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=113) > "one of the things that I'm very pleased about is people embracing the Udemy courses and the online courses that we've created with the touch typing as well," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=121) > "I think what we can realistically expect is the honeymoon period perhaps wearing off, all this excitement will calm. We're going to go into a phase where we have to work on the motivation and maintaining the level of productivity" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student motivation and isolation · [02:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=140) > "the children are starting to comment that they are missing their friends. So if I couple that with what we've seen, which is a huge uptick in emails to Gershom and myself to, WhatsApp's request for hangout meets," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student motivation and isolation · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=162) > "we have to really put quite a big focus on things like the, the hangouts chats, where kids can see each other, and they can see us, and we can have conversations to also try and just keep that social connectivity together." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Student motivation and isolation · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=185) > "Implementing EduTech at the school is not something new. It's not something that's just occurred because of this emergency. This is something you've been working on for a while." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [03:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=201) > "From the very beginning, our focus on EduTech has been about creating a framework in which creativity and opportunities can come." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [03:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=221) > "the basic maxim that we've been working from is that Digital education is not just digitizing an analog process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=230) > "the framework that we've used is the SAMR model. And essentially what it means is substitution, augmentation, modification, and redefinition. And the augmentation and substitution are sitting in an enhancement phase where modification and redefinition are in the transformation phase." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=242) > "we'd really, really like to be working in the transformation, in other words, doing things differently, using technology to enhance the learning experience," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [04:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=258) > "in the senior maths and physics, where being able to type a complex formula and answers is difficult, it is easier to write it down, take a photograph of it, and send it in so the teacher can see what's going on and vice versa." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=282) > "Augmentation might be where the younger students don't have that difficulty in terms of the The formula that they need to write down, so they are still doing the maths and similar kind of problems, but they're doing it in a digital platform." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=295) > "Then modification, where we start seeing the transformation taking place is in the Google Classroom, where the entire class is happening in that space, the way we approach the tasks, how we deliver on the learning outcomes, and that is happening in a digital space." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=312) > "You want to learn how to do underwater photography. There's no way that you're going to find that in Joburg for one person, where you can do that online and have that experience, or you want to learn Japanese." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=340) > "So substitution is a lot like a bank emailing you a document, asking you to print it, sign it, and email it back to them." >, Unidentified speaker, intro voice or played clip · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=364) > "This is technology which allows for the creation of new tasks which were previously inconceivable. Now, it's inconceivable for a school like ours to be able to hire a Japanese teacher, for example, to come in and teach one child that language." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: SAMR EduTech framework · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=377) > "We can have everything from Japanese, Russian, German, one child on each course. We can have coding, coding for gaming. We can have iPhone photography, underwater photography. We've even got a child learning how to have a better relationship with his dog." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [06:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=395) > "In, using this platform and this forum, they have become conceivable, and our children's skills level is increasing." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Udemy online courses · [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=413) > "thanks to the parents for the support, getting the children into that virtual classroom space. Keep doing what you're doing, keep getting them to school so that we can do our job and teach them." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parent support · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=452) > "We've had some fantastic messages through from Facebook and from emails where parents are actually messaging us to tell us, how happy they are with things and the way they are going," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parent support · [07:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988461_high.mp3#t=467) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Understanding the Edu Inc approach to EduTech will give you some insights into how our Covid-19 response was influenced. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Covid-19 Shut Down, We've got this! - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2020-03-23-covid-19-shut-down-we-ve/ - Date: 2020-03-23 (as at 2020-03-23) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison, Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Covid-19 school closure, Schooling from home, Independent learning, Parent expectations, Curriculum adaptation, Skills for world of work - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988462 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Gavin Kennedy talks with Edu Inc headmaster Gershom (Gersh) Aitchison and executive head Jax Aitchison as schools are told to close for Covid-19. Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, Grades 4 to 12. They explain closing the physical premises while keeping the normal daily timetable online through Google Classroom, what they expect of pupils and parents, an adapted Grade 4 to 9 programme of daily reading, touch typing and online courses, how communication will work, and how they hope pupils will later describe this period to employers. **Key ideas** - Gersh frames the shutdown as a chance to expose pupils and teachers to 21st-century work: working from home, independently, focused on outcomes, while still finishing the curriculum. ([00:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=57) [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=70)) - The school insists it is schooling from home, following the normal daily schedule with teachers logged into Google Classroom. ([01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=89) [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=95) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=105) [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=124)) - Both leaders say pupils need a dedicated learning space outside the bedroom and their own internet-connected device. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=170) [03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=195) [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=213) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=235)) - Gersh tells parents not to supervise: the students do the work, and pupils are already practised at working independently since teachers set work instead of using substitutes. ([04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=295) [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=299) [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=319) [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=331)) - Jax explains that Grades 10 to 12 keep to the curriculum while Grades 4 to 9 use daily reading, touch typing and online courses for part of the Term One mark. ([04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=274) [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=405) [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=429) [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=442) [07:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=476)) - Both argue that working independently and collaborating during quarantine will give pupils a strong answer for future employers. ([10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=647) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=668) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=690) [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=710)) **Gersh's three assembly instructions for schooling from home** ([08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=527) [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=570)) 1. Take all your books home so every resource is available. 2. Make sure you have a device with a keyboard that connects to the internet. 3. Find a space at home where you can work six or seven hours undisturbed. **Lessons** - Gersh advises logging in by 7 o'clock so that pupils are ready to start a 7:30 class, rather than switching on at 7:30. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=148)) - Jax argues a separate school space at home helps pupils feel they are at school. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=170)) - Gersh says building independent work habits beforehand, such as setting work when teachers are absent, prepared pupils for learning online. ([05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=319) [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=331)) - Gersh tells pupils facing load shedding to notify teachers of the offline period and continue lessons afterwards. ([05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=357)) - Jax describes redirecting an unused outing budget to pay for online courses, so parents face no extra cost. ([08:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=510)) **Who it's for:** Edu Inc parents and pupils preparing for the Covid-19 closure, and school leaders or teachers looking for a concrete example of moving a full timetable online, including device, space, communication and curriculum arrangements. **Facts stated in the episode** - Edu Inc's physical premises close on Tuesday at three o'clock. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=95)) - Pupils bring devices to school on Tuesday the 17th for a soft test before starting school from home on Wednesday. ([01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=108) [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=757)) - The school calendar stands: break up on 9 April, back at school on 4 May. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=744)) - A maths class at 7:30 means logging in from 7 o'clock. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=148)) - Grade 8 to 12 WhatsApp groups are moderated by Jax and Gersh, with teachers being added. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=614)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is Edu Inc closing during Covid-19 and what happens to lessons?** A: Gersh says the physical premises close on Tuesday at three o'clock and education continues from home, with pupils following their daily schedule and teachers available in Google Classroom. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=95) [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=124)) **Q: What do parents need to do while their children study from home?** A: Gersh says parents should provide a distraction-free learning space and respect school hours. They do not need to supervise, because the students do the work. The school will ask for help if needed. ([04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=274) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=295)) **Q: What equipment does a child need for online school?** A: Jax and Gersh say each child should have their own device with a keyboard, with unrestricted internet access, because the work happens in the cloud. ([03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=213) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=235) [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=570)) **Q: How will the curriculum change during lockdown?** A: Jax says Grades 10 to 12 largely stick to the curriculum. Grades 4 to 9 do daily recorded reading, touch typing and an online course, all counting towards the Term One mark. ([06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=405) [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=429) [07:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=476)) **Q: Do parents pay extra for the online courses?** A: Jax says no: the unused outing budget will pay for the courses. ([08:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=510)) **Q: How can pupils and parents contact teachers?** A: Gersh says Grade 8 to 12 pupils use WhatsApp groups with teachers added, open only to students. Parents can email teachers, and Grade 4 to 7 can use Hangouts on Google Classroom. Jax adds that the phone lines stay open. ([10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=614) [10:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=626)) **Q: What about load shedding during online classes?** A: Gersh says pupils should tell teachers when they will be offline and continue their lessons afterwards. ([05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=357)) **Q: Why do the Aitchisons see the shutdown as positive for pupils?** A: They argue pupils will be able to tell employers they worked independently and collaborated during quarantine. Gersh adds that employers will trust them to get the job done wherever they are. ([11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=668) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=690) [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=710)) ### Passage: Closing the premises and running the daily schedule [01:29-02:38, 245 words] Note (AI): Sets out the practical plan: premises close, a device soft test, and classes following the normal timetable on Google Classroom. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=89): > What I've communicated to the students and what I'm communicating to our community and our family right now is that Tomorrow, which is Tuesday, at three o'clock, Edu Inc is going to close its physical premises. Learning is no longer going to be happening at Education Incorporated, but education is going to happen from home. We are not homeschooling, we are schooling from home. Essentially, tomorrow, Tuesday, the students are going to bring their devices in. We're going to do a soft test on making sure that everything works, that the equipment is appropriate, that the kids know what they have to do, and that they're ready to rock and roll on Wednesday for school from home. I've instructed them that we are going to follow our daily schedule and that the teachers are going to be available logging into the classes, Google Classroom, et cetera, doing the work and guiding them through that process. Gavin Kennedy, intro voice or played clip [02:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=135): > So when you say they're following the daily schedule, can you just expand on that a little? Gershom Aitchison, host [02:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=138): > So I've said to them that if your class is maths with Mr. Singh from 7:30 in the morning, at 7:30 you need to be logged into his Google Classroom for maths. That does not mean switching your computer on at 7:30. At 7 o'clock, switch your computer on, log into the classroom, log into your Google account that you all have and use regularly, and be ready to start your class at 7:30. ### Passage: What the school expects of parents [04:34-06:31, 459 words] Note (AI): Gersh explains the parents' role, why pupils can already work independently, and how load shedding and terminology worries are handled. Gershom Aitchison, host [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=274): > The first thing is realize that they need a learning space that is for learning. There are no distractions. Please also realize that they are going to be at school during normal school hours. So from seven o'clock until two or three o'clock, depending on their schedule, that you're not going to be able to take them out for lunch. You're not going to be able to go to the movies. They're attending school. It allows you to get on with the work that you need to do. You do not need to be supervising them. You do not need to be looking over their shoulders. Essentially, the maxim is the students need to do the work, not the parents. You don't sit in class at school, so you shouldn't have to sit in class at home. If the children are not attending the class as they're supposed to, if they're not getting the work done, we'll use our point system in that to reinforce, and if we need your assistance to get them to sit down, we'll ask you for that. But what I will say is that from the beginning of this year, when teachers have been absent, I've already instructed the teachers that they don't get a substitute teacher, they set work for the students that they will sit in their class and work independently. And what I can say is for the last, or since the beginning of this term, it has worked very well from grade four to metric, the work has been coming in, so they are used to working independently, they are used to working online, and they're used to following the instructions the teachers are giving them in the space. A couple of other things, I don't want the parents to panic if you don't understand all the terminology the kids do, and they also have the means if they are confused to communicate with the teacher, and the teacher will explain what that is. We're not asking you to become an IT expert. Don't stress about load shedding. I've already instructed the students that if they are going to be load shedded, that they notify the teachers they're going offline from what time to what time, and they can continue with their lessons afterwards. And then one of the things I'd really like the parents to do is sit back and watch the steep learning curve. It is going to be very exciting to see your kids embrace this, dive into it, and I think you're going to be absolutely astounded with the skills, the independence, and the, and the self-discipline with which they're actually going to get this, this job done, and it's very exciting to see this happening. ### Passage: Adapted Grade 4 to 9 programme [06:34-08:35, 397 words] Note (AI): Jax describes daily recorded reading, touch typing and funded online courses counting towards the Term One mark. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=394): > Well, things are, are a little different in that regard, not with the FET phase, so with grade 10 to 12, we don't want to mess too much with that. It's, it's a different story in that phase. The grade 10 to 12s will be sticking to curriculum for the most part. in the grade four to nine space, however, we're going to be using the, this as a really, really fun way of getting into learning a little bit differently. So what we did was we sat and we thought about what are the skills our kids Really, really neat, but are sometimes not that hot on, and it's things like the reading. One of the things they're going to do is they're going to do a daily read where they are required to record themselves doing so, and then upload that into their Google Classroom. That will form part of the Term One mark. The second skill that all kids need in this day and age is the touch typing. I think a lot of us as adults wish we'd done more of that when we were younger. We've got a program that the kids use. They're going to be doing certain lessons every single day. Again, this will go towards their Term One mark, their touch typing activities. And then things get really fun, because what we decided to do was to take essentially all the soft subjects like life orientation and PE, essentially all the things that they really needed to be at school for. We took those hours and we thought, hang on a second, we've got some time here to play with. So what we're going to do there is we're going to enroll every child onto an online course of some form, either Udemy or, of course, one of these, online colleges, and they're going to do courses like entrepreneurialism for children or coding for kids or something that really excites them, and that's going to make up some of their Term One mark as well. Gavin Kennedy, intro voice or played clip [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=498): > So is that an extra cost for parents? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [08:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=500): > No, it's not an extra cost for parents because with this increasing virus threat, and all the advice we've been getting to keep away from public gatherings, we haven't actually used our outing budget. The outing budget will be used to pay for the courses instead. ### Passage: Assembly instructions to pupils [08:47-10:11, 295 words] Note (AI): Gives the three instructions pupils received and the culture of responsibility the school relies on. Gershom Aitchison, host [08:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=527): > This morning at assembly when discussing with the kids, there was a palpable excitement from them. I think a lot of them are quite excited about putting these skills in place. It's something different, it's something out of the routine, and I think part of the culture of Edu Inc is embracing this in a sense of not knowing what's happening, but trusting that it's going to work. And I think the big focus is on independence, responsibility, and when we're having conversations with them about the teachers not being there, and we say we're giving you the responsibility of working without a teacher, you know what has to get done, get the job done. These are our expectations. And I think it's translated well in the classroom, and I think the parents are going to be pretty surprised to see that happening at home as well. So my instructions in assembly this morning were very simple. Take all your books home so that you have all the resources available to you. Number two, make sure you have a device that has a keyboard that connects to the internet so you are able to access the learning and the teaching that's going to happen online. Number three, find a space at home where you can work for six or seven hours without being disrupted and without getting disrupted or distracted at home. The rest we will handle as we are going through the class, you know, the teaching in the classroom. I've also said to them there might be some unexpected glitches, a couple of curveballs. This is something that we can expect, something that we've dealt with in the past, and I'm quite sure that it's well within our realm to actually deal with now. ### Passage: How pupils will look back on quarantine [10:47-12:09, 296 words] Note (AI): Both leaders link the period to future employability, collaboration and working independently. Gavin Kennedy, intro voice or played clip [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=647): > I get a sense that what's happening this week is going to be one of those weeks that we look back at and say, where were you when that happened? And it's going to be as vivid as the moon landing and 9/11. How would you like people to think back on this time at Edu Inc? Jacqueline Aitchison, host [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=661): > They are going to talk about it as in this is what we did during that time, and that's going to hold them in really good stead going forward, because I also believe that in the workplace, one of their questions is going to be, what did you do during quarantine times? And that's going to be a tough question for some people who did sit on Netflix and do whatever they did, whereas our kids got on with the job. They learned how to do that. They learned how to collaborate. They learned how to work from home. It's that collaboration and that teamwork that is absolutely required for the world of work that they are going into. So that's going to be an easy answer for them when they get faced with that question. Gershom Aitchison, host [11:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=700): > What I'm very excited about is knowing that there are going to be children or young adults going into the world, and on their CV is that they worked independently, their future employers will be able to trust them to get the job done. Doesn't matter where they are, sitting in a coffee bar, if that's where they're comfortable working, sitting at home. It's about getting the job done. It's not about being at the physical place to do the work. And I think it's going to set them up very well to work independently and have the confidence to work in that space. ### Quotes > "This is the time to actually put our big seven league boots on and take big strides forward" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=37) > "I think a lot of people are using this as an opportunity to have a seven week holiday, to do nothing, sit at home, watch Netflix." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=52) > "We are not homeschooling, we are schooling from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=105) > "Essentially, the maxim is the students need to do the work, not the parents." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=299) > "We're not asking you to become an IT expert. Don't stress about load shedding." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=355) > "I think you're going to be absolutely astounded with the skills, the independence, and the, and the self-discipline" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=381) > "you know what has to get done, get the job done." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [09:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=556) > "They learned how to collaborate. They learned how to work from home." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=687) > "It's about getting the job done. It's not about being at the physical place to do the work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [11:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=718) ### Claims > "Education has been needing to change for a long time and we are tired of hearing all the stories about how it's industrialized" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 school closure · [00:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=29) > "At Edu Inc I would like to expose our students and our teachers to what the real world of work looks like in the 21st century, working from home, working independently, and focusing on the outcome." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Skills for world of work · [00:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=57) > "And the outcome for us is, doesn't matter what happens in the world, what happens with coronavirus, you are going to finish your curriculum this year, you are going to be assessed properly, and you are going to go to the next grade next year." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 school closure · [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=70) > "Tomorrow, which is Tuesday, at three o'clock, Edu Inc is going to close its physical premises. Learning is no longer going to be happening at Education Incorporated, but education is going to happen from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 school closure · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=95) > "Essentially, tomorrow, Tuesday, the students are going to bring their devices in. We're going to do a soft test on making sure that everything works, that the equipment is appropriate, that the kids know what they have to do, and that they're ready to rock and roll on Wednesday for school from home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=108) > "I've instructed them that we are going to follow our daily schedule and that the teachers are going to be available logging into the classes, Google Classroom, et cetera, doing the work and guiding them through that process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=124) > "That does not mean switching your computer on at 7:30. At 7 o'clock, switch your computer on, log into the classroom, log into your Google account that you all have and use regularly, and be ready to start your class at 7:30." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=148) > "But what's important here is creating a distinction for the children that when they are sitting in that space at home, it is as if they are at school. They've got to feel that feeling of now I'm at school. And it really should not be in their bedrooms as far as possible." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=170) > "So I'm suggesting that there is a school space created at home, if possible, that is outside of their bedrooms, outside of a place where they normally relax, and they can sit and be dedicated to learning for the six or seven hours" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=195) > "As much as possible, it really should be their own computer, because the likelihood of parents also now staying home to work from home as part of this, quarantining is very, very high." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [03:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=213) > "So they need a dedicated device that they have unrestricted and unfettered access to, and that is connected to the internet, because most of this is happening in the cloud," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=235) > "Well, a lot of this is not foreign to the children anymore, because we've been practicing. They're familiar with the terminology, they're familiar with how to log on and how to actually function in these platforms." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independent learning · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=255) > "You do not need to be supervising them. You do not need to be looking over their shoulders. Essentially, the maxim is the students need to do the work, not the parents. You don't sit in class at school, so you shouldn't have to sit in class at home." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parent expectations · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=295) > "But what I will say is that from the beginning of this year, when teachers have been absent, I've already instructed the teachers that they don't get a substitute teacher, they set work for the students that they will sit in their class and work independently." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Independent learning · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=319) > "And what I can say is for the last, or since the beginning of this term, it has worked very well from grade four to metric, the work has been coming in, so they are used to working independently, they are used to working online," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Independent learning · [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=331) > "Don't stress about load shedding. I've already instructed the students that if they are going to be load shedded, that they notify the teachers they're going offline from what time to what time, and they can continue with their lessons afterwards." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Parent expectations · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=357) > "The grade 10 to 12s will be sticking to curriculum for the most part. in the grade four to nine space, however, we're going to be using the, this as a really, really fun way of getting into learning a little bit differently." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Curriculum adaptation · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=405) > "One of the things they're going to do is they're going to do a daily read where they are required to record themselves doing so, and then upload that into their Google Classroom. That will form part of the Term One mark." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Curriculum adaptation · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=429) > "The second skill that all kids need in this day and age is the touch typing. I think a lot of us as adults wish we'd done more of that when we were younger." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Curriculum adaptation · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=442) > "So what we're going to do there is we're going to enroll every child onto an online course of some form, either Udemy or, of course, one of these, online colleges, and they're going to do courses like entrepreneurialism for children or coding for kids or something that really excites them," >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Curriculum adaptation · [07:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=476) > "we haven't actually used our outing budget. The outing budget will be used to pay for the courses instead." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Curriculum adaptation · [08:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=510) > "I think part of the culture of Edu Inc is embracing this in a sense of not knowing what's happening, but trusting that it's going to work. And I think the big focus is on independence, responsibility," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Independent learning · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=538) > "Take all your books home so that you have all the resources available to you. Number two, make sure you have a device that has a keyboard that connects to the internet so you are able to access the learning and the teaching that's going to happen online." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=570) > "So traditionally, grade eight to grade twelve have WhatsApp groups with Jax and myself as moderators on the group. We'll be adding teachers into that space so that the teachers can communicate and the kids can communicate directly with the teachers via WhatsApp." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Communication channels · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=614) > "This is a communication channel that is only open to the students, it is not open to the parents. Parents can still email the teachers directly," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Communication channels · [10:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=626) > "because I also believe that in the workplace, one of their questions is going to be, what did you do during quarantine times?" >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Skills for world of work · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=668) > "It's that collaboration and that teamwork that is absolutely required for the world of work that they are going into." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Skills for world of work · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=690) > "their future employers will be able to trust them to get the job done. Doesn't matter where they are, sitting in a coffee bar, if that's where they're comfortable working, sitting at home. It's about getting the job done. It's not about being at the physical place to do the work." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Skills for world of work · [11:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=710) > "We are going to follow our school calendar. We are going to break up on the 9th of April, and we'll be back at school on the 4th of May." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Covid-19 school closure · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=744) > "So just a reminder, all the students need to be at school tomorrow, Tuesday the 17th. We are doing our soft test with their devices," >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Schooling from home · [12:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988462_high.mp3#t=757) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) As Covid-19 arrives and schools are instructed to shut down, Mr. Gershom Aitchison, our Headmaster, and Mrs. Jax Aitchison, our Executive Head, talk to Gavin Kennedy about the plans they've made and the action they're taking to respond. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Edu Inc Case Study | Charlie's story - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2019-02-14-charlie-s-story/ - Date: 2019-02-14 (as at 2019-02-14) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Charlie's case study, Small classes, individual attention, Independence and ownership, Limits of constant intervention, Balancing sport and academics, Accountability - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988466 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Jacqueline Aitchison, Director of Education Incorporated, narrates the case of Charlie, a boy who by grade five had repeated a year, saw several therapists and had a full-time classroom assistant, yet was still struggling. She argues that constant intervention was teaching him something was wrong with him. After moving to Education Incorporated in grade six, with support reduced and ownership of his work expected, his marks and happiness improved within two terms, and he earned cricket colours. She connects this to the school's small classes, which she says allow it to customise schooling around pupils' talents, including athletes competing at provincial and national level. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline argues that constant assistance, repeated testing and intense therapies had come to reinforce one message in Charlie: that there was something wrong with him. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=47) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=54)) - She says Charlie had lost independence and control over his schoolwork, and that learning to take ownership and face the consequences of his decisions was central to his change. ([01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=65) [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=85)) - Jacqueline says small classes and individual attention let the school accommodate a variety of concessions. ([00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=10)) - She presents small classes as allowing the school to customise a child's education around their talents and passions, possibly toward professional careers. ([02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=130)) - The school offers athletes flexible academic scheduling in return for commitment to academic performance and accountability. ([02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=158) [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=163)) - Jacqueline calls finding balance and customising one's purpose in life a vital skill. ([02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=175) [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=175)) **Lessons** - Jacqueline suggests that more support is not always better: in Charlie's case, reducing therapy and removing the assistant preceded his improvement. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=47) [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=76) [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=102)) - She describes teaching study skills, time management and workspace organisation, alongside an expectation of effort, as part of building a child's independence. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=85) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=94)) - She notes the transition was hard at first: the first two terms were tough for Charlie. ([01:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=73) [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=83)) - Getting academics under control freed Charlie to spend more time on cricket, according to Jacqueline. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=116)) **Who it's for:** Parents weighing school options for a child who is struggling despite heavy therapeutic and classroom support, and parents of children with serious sporting commitments who need academic flexibility. **Facts stated in the episode** - By grade five Charlie had repeated a year and was seeing an occupational therapist, a speech therapist and a psychologist. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=20)) - Charlie joined Education Incorporated at the beginning of grade six. ([01:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=73)) - Charlie earned cricket colours by the end of grade seven. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=116)) - Education Incorporated students have represented South Africa as junior Springboks. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=148) [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=155)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Can too much therapy and classroom assistance hold a child back?** A: Jacqueline argues that in Charlie's case the constant assistance, repeated psychoeducational testing and intense therapies had reached a point of reinforcing only that something was wrong with him, and he had lost independence and control. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=47) [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=65)) **Q: What changed for Charlie when he moved to Education Incorporated?** A: His therapy was reduced to occasional psychologist visits, he no longer had a classroom assistant, and he was taught to study, manage his time, organise his workspace and take ownership of his work. ([01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=76) [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=85) [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=94)) **Q: How quickly did Charlie improve?** A: Jacqueline says that within two terms his marks improved dramatically, including a couple of distinctions, and he was happy and enjoying school. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=102)) **Q: Why does Education Incorporated have small classes?** A: Jacqueline says small classes and individual attention let the school accommodate a variety of concessions and customise a child's education around their talents and passions. ([00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=10) [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=130)) **Q: Can a school accommodate a child who plays sport at a high level?** A: Jacqueline says the school helps students structure academic schedules around tournaments, travel and training, expecting commitment to academic performance in return; some students have reached provincial and national levels. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=148) [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=163)) **Q: How did Charlie's family react to his change?** A: His parents kept commenting that family members and friends could not believe he was the same child. ([02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=124)) ### Passage: Charlie before joining: therapies, assistant, still struggling [00:20-01:12, 155 words] Note (AI): Sets out the full picture of intensive support that was not working and the school's view that it was reinforcing a harmful message. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=20): > Charlie attended a private school from grade R, and by grade five had repeated a year, was regularly seeing an occupational therapist, a speech therapist, and a psychologist. As if this weren't enough, he also had an assistant throughout his school day to help him read, organize his books, his stationery, his classwork, and his schedule, and also to help him with homework. Despite all of these measures, he was still performing poorly and in danger of failing another year. We advised Charlie's parents that the constant assistance, repeated psychoeducational testing, and arguably intense therapies had reached a point of reinforcing only one message in Charlie, that there was something wrong with him. His parents Parents were frustrated at spending so much money every month for what seemed like very little progress. Charlie was perhaps even more frustrated, as he had lost all sense of independence and control over his schoolwork and his educational environment. ### Passage: Charlie's turnaround after support was reduced [01:13-02:09, 177 words] Note (AI): Describes what changed, what Charlie was taught and expected to do, and the results within two terms. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=73): > Charlie came to Edu Inc at the beginning of his grade six year. His therapy schedule was reduced to occasional visits to the psychologist, and he no longer had an assistant in class with him. The first two terms were tough for Charlie. He had to learn to stop thinking for himself, to take ownership of his work, and to experience the consequences of his decisions, both good and unpleasant. He was taught to study effectively and how to manage his time and organize his workspace. He was expected to make an effort and do the work. Within two terms, Charlie's marks had improved dramatically, including a couple of distinctions, but most importantly, he was happy and enjoying school. Feeling in control and completely able to cope with his academic schedule and requirements. Getting his academics under control meant that he could focus more time on his passion, cricket, earning himself cricket colors by the end of grade seven. His parents kept commenting on how family members and friends could not believe that this was the same child. ### Passage: Customising school around sport and passions [01:56-03:03, 186 words] Note (AI): Explains how the school structures academics around athletes' schedules in exchange for accountability, relevant to parents of sporting children. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=116): > Getting his academics under control meant that he could focus more time on his passion, cricket, earning himself cricket colors by the end of grade seven. His parents kept commenting on how family members and friends could not believe that this was the same child. The ability to streamline Charlie's academics and allow him to excel in his chosen sport is another byproduct of the very small classes and how they allow us to customize a child's educational experience around their talents and passions, allowing them the opportunity to turn these into professional careers. Education Incorporated has students who have already excelled in their sporting disciplines to provincial and national levels, even representing South Africa as junior Springboks. These students are taught to understand the value and significance of accountability. The school assists them in structuring their academic schedules around their tournaments, traveling, and grueling training schedules, but expects commitment and Education to their academic performance in return for this flexibility. This ability to find balance and a manner in which every person can customize their purpose in life is a vital twenty second century skill. ### Quotes > "had reached a point of reinforcing only one message in Charlie, that there was something wrong with him." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=54) > "The first two terms were tough for Charlie." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=83) > "but most importantly, he was happy and enjoying school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=107) > "His parents kept commenting on how family members and friends could not believe that this was the same child." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=124) > "even representing South Africa as junior Springboks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=155) > "These students are taught to understand the value and significance of accountability." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=158) > "This ability to find balance and a manner in which every person can customize their purpose in life is a vital twenty second century skill." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=175) ### Claims > "Some people mistakenly think that Education Incorporated is a remedial school because of its small classes." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Small classes, individual attention · [00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=4) > "We can accommodate a variety of concessions because of the nature of our small classes and the individual attention the children receive." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Small classes, individual attention · [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=10) > "Charlie attended a private school from grade R, and by grade five had repeated a year, was regularly seeing an occupational therapist, a speech therapist, and a psychologist." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Charlie's case study · [00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=20) > "As if this weren't enough, he also had an assistant throughout his school day to help him read, organize his books, his stationery, his classwork, and his schedule, and also to help him with homework." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Charlie's case study · [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=30) > "Despite all of these measures, he was still performing poorly and in danger of failing another year." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Charlie's case study · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=41) > "We advised Charlie's parents that the constant assistance, repeated psychoeducational testing, and arguably intense therapies had reached a point of reinforcing only one message in Charlie, that there was something wrong with him." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Limits of constant intervention · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=47) > "His parents Parents were frustrated at spending so much money every month for what seemed like very little progress." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Limits of constant intervention · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=59) > "Charlie was perhaps even more frustrated, as he had lost all sense of independence and control over his schoolwork and his educational environment." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independence and ownership · [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=65) > "His therapy schedule was reduced to occasional visits to the psychologist, and he no longer had an assistant in class with him." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Charlie's case study · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=76) > "He had to learn to stop thinking for himself, to take ownership of his work, and to experience the consequences of his decisions, both good and unpleasant." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independence and ownership · [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=85) > "He was taught to study effectively and how to manage his time and organize his workspace. He was expected to make an effort and do the work." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Independence and ownership · [01:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=94) > "Within two terms, Charlie's marks had improved dramatically, including a couple of distinctions, but most importantly, he was happy and enjoying school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Charlie's case study · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=102) > "Getting his academics under control meant that he could focus more time on his passion, cricket, earning himself cricket colors by the end of grade seven." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Balancing sport and academics · [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=116) > "The ability to streamline Charlie's academics and allow him to excel in his chosen sport is another byproduct of the very small classes and how they allow us to customize a child's educational experience around their talents and passions, allowing them the opportunity to turn these into professional careers." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Small classes, individual attention · [02:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=130) > "Education Incorporated has students who have already excelled in their sporting disciplines to provincial and national levels, even representing South Africa as junior Springboks." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Balancing sport and academics · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=148) > "The school assists them in structuring their academic schedules around their tournaments, traveling, and grueling training schedules, but expects commitment and Education to their academic performance in return for this flexibility." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Accountability · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=163) > "This ability to find balance and a manner in which every person can customize their purpose in life is a vital twenty second century skill." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Balancing sport and academics · [02:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988466_high.mp3#t=175) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Finding the right school for your child. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Edu Inc Case Study | Neil's Story - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2019-02-14-neil-s-story/ - Date: 2019-02-14 (as at 2019-02-14) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Neil's turnaround story, Pupil happiness and motivation, Academic progress, University aspirations, Sport and leadership - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988467 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Education Incorporated (Edu Inc), a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, tells one case study: Neil, who joined in grade eight after being unhappy and apathetic at a private school, even losing interest in the sports he excelled at. Gershom recounts the mother's hope that Neil simply reach fifty percent and be happy, Neil's belief that he would never get into university, and his later results: a B average from grade nine, provincial sports honours for three years, a prefect role, matric in 2017, and university study. **Key ideas** - Gershom describes Neil arriving from a private school chosen for its sports, yet being unhappy there, with tears and apathy a term into the year. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=0) [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=10) [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=19)) - Gershom recalls the mother's first-interview expectation: fifty percent in all subjects would be enough, and she mainly wanted Neil to be happy. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=32) [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=40)) - Gershom recounts that Neil once believed he would never get into university, which later changed to considering a BSc and occupational therapy or physiotherapy. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=60) [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=64) [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=76)) - Gershom reports Neil's outcomes at Edu Inc: a consistent B average, provincial sports honours for three consecutive years, a prefect role and university study. ([01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=105)) **Lessons** - In Gershom's account, a school that suits a child's talents on paper did not keep Neil happy or motivated, even in his sport. ([00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=10) [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=19)) - Gershom's story shows a child's own view of his future shifting, from 'never' going to university to planning a BSc. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=60) [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=76)) - According to Gershom, Neil exceeded his mother's hope of fifty percent, reaching a B average and taking on sport and prefect responsibilities. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=32) [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=105)) **Who it's for:** Parents whose child is unhappy or disengaged at their current school and who are considering a move, and anyone wanting a concrete example of a pupil's progress at Edu Inc. **Facts stated in the episode** - Neil joined Education Incorporated in grade eight from a private school in the area. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=0)) - Neil finished matric at Edu Inc in 2017. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97)) - Neil represented provincially in his sport for three consecutive years. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97)) - Neil held a B average, occasionally an A average, from grade nine. ([01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why did Neil leave his previous school?** A: Gershom says Neil was very unhappy at his private school: a term into the year there were tears on the way to school, general apathy, and he had even lost interest in his sports. ([00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=10) [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=19)) **Q: What did Neil's mother expect when he joined Edu Inc?** A: Gershom recalls her saying fifty percent in all subjects would be good enough, that she didn't expect much more and just wanted him to be happy. ([00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=32) [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=40)) **Q: How did Neil do academically at Edu Inc?** A: Gershom says Neil consistently achieved a B average, occasionally an A average, from grade nine, and finished matric in 2017. ([01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97)) **Q: What did Neil achieve outside academics?** A: Gershom says he achieved honours for sport by representing provincially for three consecutive years and was a prefect who influenced many peers. ([01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=105)) **Q: Did Neil go to university?** A: Gershom says Neil, who once whispered he would never get into university, later considered a BSc and occupational therapy or physiotherapy, and was studying at a top South African university. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=60) [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=76) [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=105)) ### Passage: Neil's journey from unhappy pupil to university student [00:00-01:53, 361 words] Note (AI): The complete case study: Neil's unhappiness at his previous school, his mother's modest hopes, and his academic, sporting and leadership results after joining Edu Inc. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=0): > Hi, I'm Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Education Incorporated. One of my favorite stories is about Neil, a grade eight pupil who came to us from a private school in the area. Neil was very unhappy at his school. The family had chosen the school because it was a good private school which offered the sports that Neil was particularly talented in. A term into the new year, things weren't going well. There were tears in the car on the way to school and a general apathy towards everything. Most disturbingly, Neil wasn't even interested in his sports anymore. I remember clearly in the first parent interview his mom saying, Neil reaching fifty percent for all his subjects is good enough for me, and I'll be over the moon. I don't expect much more, I just want him to be happy. At the awards evening at the end of Neil's first year at Edu Inc, his mom and I were chatting about his progress and how well he had done. She was almost in tears when she relayed this story to me. As a family, they had gone to their eldest daughter's university graduation near the end of the first term. During the ceremony, Neil leaned over to his mom and whispered, that's never going to be me, mom. I will never get into university. A part of her heart broke that evening. She was sharing the story because a couple of weeks before our awards evening, in the car on the way home, Neil had casually remarked that he was thinking of studying a BSc at a university after he matriculated. He also wanted to explore occupational therapy or physiotherapy as a career option. His mom, Bitterlippen, replied, that's great news. Neil has consistently achieved a B average and occasionally an A average since his grade nine year at Edu Inc. He finished matric with us in 2017 and achieved honors for his sports by representing provincially for three consecutive years. He was also one of our prefects and has influenced the lives of many of his Edu Inc peers in a meaningful way. He was currently studying at a top South African university. ### Quotes > "Most disturbingly, Neil wasn't even interested in his sports anymore." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=27) > "I don't expect much more, I just want him to be happy." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=40) > "that's never going to be me, mom. I will never get into university." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=64) > "Neil has consistently achieved a B average and occasionally an A average since his grade nine year at Edu Inc." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) > "He finished matric with us in 2017 and achieved honors for his sports by representing provincially for three consecutive years." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) ### Claims > "Hi, I'm Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Education Incorporated. One of my favorite stories is about Neil, a grade eight pupil who came to us from a private school in the area." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Neil's turnaround story · [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=0) > "Neil was very unhappy at his school. The family had chosen the school because it was a good private school which offered the sports that Neil was particularly talented in." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Neil's turnaround story · [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=10) > "A term into the new year, things weren't going well. There were tears in the car on the way to school and a general apathy towards everything. Most disturbingly, Neil wasn't even interested in his sports anymore." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil happiness and motivation · [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=19) > "I remember clearly in the first parent interview his mom saying, Neil reaching fifty percent for all his subjects is good enough for me, and I'll be over the moon." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil happiness and motivation · [00:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=32) > "During the ceremony, Neil leaned over to his mom and whispered, that's never going to be me, mom. I will never get into university. A part of her heart broke that evening." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: University aspirations · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=60) > "Neil had casually remarked that he was thinking of studying a BSc at a university after he matriculated. He also wanted to explore occupational therapy or physiotherapy as a career option." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: University aspirations · [01:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=76) > "Neil has consistently achieved a B average and occasionally an A average since his grade nine year at Edu Inc." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Academic progress · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=91) > "He finished matric with us in 2017 and achieved honors for his sports by representing provincially for three consecutive years." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and leadership · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=97) > "He was also one of our prefects and has influenced the lives of many of his Edu Inc peers in a meaningful way. He was currently studying at a top South African university." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Sport and leadership · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988467_high.mp3#t=105) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Every child is unique and will perform in the right environment. We want to understand the individual. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Edu Inc Case Study | Ronald's story - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2019-02-14-ronald-s-story/ - Date: 2019-02-14 (as at 2019-02-14) - Host: Jacqueline Aitchison - Themes: Trial week process, Pupil anxiety and wellbeing, Parent feedback, Academic assessment, Settling into a new school - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988465 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Jacqueline Aitchison, Director of Education Incorporated (Edu Inc), explains that every prospective pupil at the school attends a trial week. Edu Inc is a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB for Grades 4 to 12, with small classes by design. She then tells the story of Ronald, a grade six pupil. At his previous school he was crying daily, had morning stomach aches and had Sunday tantrums before tests. She describes his reluctance at the start of the trial week, his change by its end, his mother's feedback and his assessment results. She ends with his enrolment and says he has had one sore tummy in three years. **Key ideas** - Jacqueline describes the trial week as compulsory and fully immersive. It lets the child, the family and the school judge fit before the school invests in educating the child. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4) [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=6) [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=8)) - Ronald's distress at his old school showed as physical and emotional signs: daily crying, morning stomach aches and Sunday tantrums before Monday tests. ([00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=23) [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=31)) - Ronald's reluctance on day one had changed by the end of the week. He was smiling, had made friends, liked the teachers' explanations and had managed all the homework. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=19) [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=42) [00:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=49) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=54) [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=63)) - The parent's feedback centred on visible behaviour change: Ronald talked in the car and was ready for school without being woken. ([01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=69) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=89)) - The trial week includes an academic assessment. Ronald's showed catching up needed in mathematics, while his reading and comprehension were at grade level. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=106)) **Edu Inc trial week** ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4) [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=8) [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=19) [00:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=49) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=54) [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=69) [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=69) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99)) 1. The child attends a full, immersive trial week at the school. 2. On day one, the child has an initial conversation with the headmaster. 3. During the week, the child attends classes and does the homework teachers set. 4. The child completes an assessment in mathematics and English. 5. At the end of the week, the child has a second conversation with the headmaster. 6. A trial week feedback meeting is held with the parent. **Lessons** - Jacqueline presents a trial week as a way for child, family and school to test fit before enrolment. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4) [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=8)) - In Ronald's story, daily crying, stomach aches and test-related tantrums are presented as signs a child is not enjoying school. ([00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=23) [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=31)) - The story shows a child's initial reluctance about a new school can change within one week. ([00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=42) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=54) [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=89)) - The assessment in Ronald's case identified a specific area to catch up, mathematics, alongside grade-appropriate reading. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=106)) **Who it's for:** Parents of a child who is unhappy or anxious at their current school and who are considering Edu Inc. It also suits anyone wanting to know how the school's trial week works. **Facts stated in the episode** - Every child must attend a trial week before enrolling at Edu Inc. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4)) - Ronald was a pupil in grade six. ([00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=19)) - Ronald completed assessments in mathematics and English during his trial week. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99)) - Ronald has had one sore tummy in the three years since enrolling. ([01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=113) [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=115)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Does Edu Inc require a trial week before a child can enrol?** A: Yes. Jacqueline Aitchison says every child is required to attend a trial week to see if there's a good fit with the school. ([00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4) [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=6)) **Q: What is the purpose of the Edu Inc trial week?** A: Jacqueline describes it as a fully immersive experience of the school. It lets the child, the family and the school see if there is a potential fit before the school invests in educating the child. ([00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=8)) **Q: What was happening to Ronald before he came to Edu Inc?** A: He was crying every day when collected and complained of stomach aches in the morning. Sunday afternoons involved shouting, wailing and tantrums, especially before Monday tests. ([00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=23) [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=31)) **Q: How did Ronald feel at the end of his trial week?** A: He was smiling, had made new friends and found the other students friendly. He liked how the teachers explained things and had managed all the homework. ([00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=54) [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=63)) **Q: What did Ronald's mother notice after the trial week?** A: She said he talked constantly in the car and got dressed without being woken, urging her not to make him late. She called the change in one week remarkable. ([01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=89)) **Q: Is there an academic assessment during the trial week?** A: Yes. Ronald completed assessments in mathematics and English. They showed he needed to catch up in mathematics, while his reading and comprehension were appropriate for his grade. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=106)) **Q: How has Ronald done since enrolling?** A: Jacqueline says he has had only one sore tummy in the last three years, on a day he went home early with a tummy bug. ([01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=113) [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=115)) ### Passage: Ronald's unhappiness and his first trial week [00:19-01:08, 177 words] Note (AI): Traces Ronald's distress at his old school and the change seen by the end of his trial week, told through his two conversations with the headmaster. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=19): > Here is an example in the case of Ronald, a pupil in grade six. He was not enjoying his school experience. He was crying every day when his mom collected him from school. He always complained of a stomach ache in the morning. Sunday afternoons had become a nightmare of shouting, wailing, and tantrums, especially if there was a test on Monday. Ronald's mom had heard about Edu Inc from a friend of a friend, and she had set up a trial week for him. Initially, Ronald was reluctant. He hated school, all school. His tummy was sore, and he missed his friends. This is what he told the headmaster on his first day of his trial week, when they had their initial conversation. At the end of the week, in his second conversation with the headmaster, he was smiling. He had made new friends, and he couldn't believe how friendly all the other students were. He liked the teachers, and how they explained things, and he had managed all the homework that the teachers had given him. ### Passage: Mom's feedback, assessment results and outcome [01:09-02:00, 194 words] Note (AI): Gives the parent's account of the change, the maths and English assessment findings, and the result three years after enrolment. Jacqueline Aitchison, host [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=69): > At the trial week feedback meeting, Ronald's mom asked what we had done to his son. He won't keep quiet in the car on the way home. He keeps telling me about what he's learned at school, and what this person said, and what they did at break, and, and, and. I don't even have to wake him up in the morning to get ready for school. He's dressed and waiting for me, telling me to hurry up so that he isn't late. The difference in my son in just one week is remarkable. He comes with me to his old school to fetch his sister, and even all the teachers are commenting. On how happy he looks, she added, Ronald completed an assessment for mathematics and English in his trial week, and the results showed that he had some catching up to do with his mathematics. His reading and comprehension were appropriate for his grade, and the teachers really enjoyed having him in their classes. Ronald was enrolled at Education Incorporated, and he's only had one sore tummy in the last three years. He went home early that day with a tummy bug. ### Quotes > "every child is required to attend a trial week." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=6) > "Initially, Ronald was reluctant. He hated school, all school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=42) > "At the trial week feedback meeting, Ronald's mom asked what we had done to his son." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=69) > "I don't even have to wake him up in the morning to get ready for school." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) > "The difference in my son in just one week is remarkable." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=89) > "he's only had one sore tummy in the last three years. He went home early that day with a tummy bug." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=115) ### Claims > "In order to see if there's a good fit with Edu Inc, every child is required to attend a trial week." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Trial week process · [00:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=4) > "This is a fully immersive experience of the school and allows the child, the family, and the school to see if there is a potential fit before the school begins their investment in educating the child." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Trial week process · [00:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=8) > "He was not enjoying his school experience. He was crying every day when his mom collected him from school. He always complained of a stomach ache in the morning." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil anxiety and wellbeing · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=23) > "Sunday afternoons had become a nightmare of shouting, wailing, and tantrums, especially if there was a test on Monday." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil anxiety and wellbeing · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=31) > "Initially, Ronald was reluctant. He hated school, all school. His tummy was sore, and he missed his friends." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Settling into a new school · [00:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=42) > "This is what he told the headmaster on his first day of his trial week, when they had their initial conversation." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Trial week process · [00:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=49) > "At the end of the week, in his second conversation with the headmaster, he was smiling. He had made new friends, and he couldn't believe how friendly all the other students were." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Settling into a new school · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=54) > "He liked the teachers, and how they explained things, and he had managed all the homework that the teachers had given him." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Settling into a new school · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=63) > "I don't even have to wake him up in the morning to get ready for school. He's dressed and waiting for me, telling me to hurry up so that he isn't late." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Parent feedback · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=82) > "Ronald completed an assessment for mathematics and English in his trial week, and the results showed that he had some catching up to do with his mathematics." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Academic assessment · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=99) > "His reading and comprehension were appropriate for his grade, and the teachers really enjoyed having him in their classes." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Academic assessment · [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=106) > "Ronald was enrolled at Education Incorporated, and he's only had one sore tummy in the last three years." >, Jacqueline Aitchison, host · topic: Pupil anxiety and wellbeing · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988465_high.mp3#t=113) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Children need the structure and predictability. Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Edu Inc and Technology - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2019-02-14-edu-inc-and-technology/ - Date: 2019-02-14 (as at 2019-02-14) - Host: Gershom Aitchison - Themes: Technology in education, Digitizing analog processes, Teaching method and pedagogy, School tech infrastructure, Preparing learners for the future - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988464 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Education Incorporated (a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, writing the IEB, Grades 4 to 12, with small classes by design), answers the parent question of whether it is a tech school with iPads for every student. He contrasts the school's approach with Flowerfield High School, which spent millions of rands replacing textbooks, chalkboards and paper admin with tablets, smart boards and Office documents while nothing changed in how teachers taught or learners engaged. He argues that technology should change the method of teaching, learning, assessment and data management, so that the method becomes the lesson, and describes the school's Google Suite and one gig internet setup. **Key ideas** - Gershom argues that swapping analog tools for digital equivalents without changing processes is not meaningful technology use. ([00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=9) [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=10) [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=47)) - In the Flowerfield example, tablets, smart boards and Word and Excel replaced textbooks, chalkboards and paper, but teaching, engagement and management processes stayed the same. ([00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=13) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=54) [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=67)) - He compares today's excitement about tablets and smart boards to earlier excitement about the green board and colour chalk. ([01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=80)) - He holds that teaching covers both the what and the how, including how students demonstrate knowledge in tests and exams, which still use pen and paper. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95) [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=106)) - Correctly used, technology can change how teachers teach, how learners experience learning, and how management handles data, so the method becomes the lesson. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=114) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=141) [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=143)) - He says learning to do things differently prepares learners for the 22nd century rather than applying 'Dickens 2.0'. ([01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=88) [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=128)) **Lessons** - Gershom suggests judging a school's technology by whether teaching and learning processes changed, not by whether every student has a tablet. ([00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=27) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=54) [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=67)) - He warns that large spending on devices can leave classrooms essentially unchanged. ([00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=13) [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=41) [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=47)) - He argues assessment methods matter too: writing exams with pen and paper is only an incremental step from parchment and quills. ([01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=106) [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=111)) - He presents teachers continually adapting and learning appropriate technology as the way to enhance teaching and learning. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=159)) **Who it's for:** Parents choosing a school who want to understand what 'tech school' means in practice, and teachers or school leaders weighing investment in tablets, smart boards and digital administration. **Facts stated in the episode** - Gershom says Flowerfield High School spent millions of rands becoming a digital school. ([00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=41)) - Education Incorporated uses Google Suite with an exabyte of space, described as a million terabytes. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=150)) - Education Incorporated has a one gig internet line, described as a thousand megabytes. ([02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=159)) - Gershom says students currently write tests and exams with pen and paper. ([01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=106)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Is Edu Inc a tech school where every student has an iPad?** A: Gershom says parents often ask this. He says Education Incorporated is a tech school but does not believe in just digitizing an analog process; it uses Google Suite and a one gig internet line. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=0) [00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=9) [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=150) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=159)) **Q: Does giving students tablets and putting smart boards in classrooms improve teaching?** A: Using Flowerfield High School as an example, Gershom says tablets and smart boards replaced textbooks and chalkboards, but nothing changed in how teachers taught, how learners engaged or in any processes. ([00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=13) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=54) [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=67)) **Q: What does 'digitizing an analog process' mean in schools?** A: Gershom describes replacing the textbook with a tablet, chalkboards with smart boards, and lesson plans and mark sheets with Word and Excel documents, while the underlying teaching stays the same. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=47) [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=54)) **Q: How should technology change education?** A: Gershom says correct use of technology should fundamentally change the way teachers teach, how learners experience learning, and how management collects, reviews and analyses data, to the point that the method is the lesson itself. ([01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=114) [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=141)) **Q: Why does the way students write exams matter?** A: Gershom argues teaching includes how students demonstrate knowledge and skills, and that writing tests and exams with pen and paper is only an incremental step up from parchment and quills. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95) [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=106)) **Q: What technology infrastructure does Edu Inc use?** A: Gershom says the school uses Google Suite with an exabyte of space, which he describes as a million terabytes, and a one gig internet line, which he describes as a thousand megabytes. ([02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=150) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=159)) **Q: How does technology prepare students for the future?** A: Gershom says learners are prepared for the 22nd century by learning to do things differently and adapting to a rapidly changing environment, not by applying 'Dickens 2.0'. ([02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=128)) ### Passage: Flowerfield High's costly digital makeover changed nothing [00:13-01:19, 193 words] Note (AI): A worked cautionary example of a school spending heavily on tablets and smart boards while teaching, learner engagement and management processes stayed the same. Gershom Aitchison, host [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=13): > Let me share the tech journey of another school, Flowerfield High School. Flowerfield High School's governing body decided that in order to remain relevant and appear progressive, they would create digital classrooms and a paperless administration process. When prospective parents asked what the school's technological policy was, the answer could proudly be that every student had a tablet and thus did not need textbooks, that every classroom had a smart board, and that the teacher's administration was all completed electronically. Millions of rands were spent, and Flowerfield High School was the very epitome of a digital school. Flowerfield High and many other schools like them have spent vast amounts of money on digitizing an analog process. The textbook was replaced by a tablet. The chalkboards were replaced with smart boards. The teacher's lesson plans and mark sheets were replaced by Word and Excel documents, except nothing actually changed in the way the teachers taught in the classroom. Nothing changed in the way the learners were expected to engage with their work. Nothing changed in the way management wanted to see data and information, and most notably, nothing changed in any of the processes. ### Passage: Method as lesson and Edu Inc's tech setup [01:35-02:50, 208 words] Note (AI): Sets out the headmaster's argument that technology should change how teaching, learning and assessment happen, and describes the school's Google Suite and internet infrastructure. Gershom Aitchison, host [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95): > Teaching is not only about the what information, but also about the how method. How are the students required to demonstrate their knowledge and skills when they write their tests and exams? They are required to write their tests and exams with a pen and paper at the moment, an incremental step up from parchment and quills. The correct use of technology and the digitization of information allows for us to fundamentally change the way we teach, change how the learners experience the learning process, and how management can collect, review, and analyze data and information. It is in this exact experience that learners are prepared for the 22nd century by learning to do things differently and adapting to the rapidly ever-changing environment around them, not just applying Dickens 2.0. One could go as far as to say that if new technologies are correctly and effectively applied in teaching, then the method is the lesson itself. Education Incorporated is a tech school. The framework that we use is Google Suite with an exabyte of space. That's a million terabytes. We have a one gig internet line. That's a thousand megabytes. Teachers are constantly adapting and learning to use the appropriate technology to enhance the teaching and learning experience. ### Quotes > "we don't believe in just digitizing an analog process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=10) > "Flowerfield High and many other schools like them have spent vast amounts of money on digitizing an analog process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=47) > "Fundamentally, teachers are still teaching in the same Dickensian-style classrooms and manner as they did a hundred years ago." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=88) > "Teaching is not only about the what information, but also about the how method." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95) > "an incremental step up from parchment and quills." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [01:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=111) > "if new technologies are correctly and effectively applied in teaching, then the method is the lesson itself." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=143) ### Claims > "Hi, I'm Gershom Aitchison, Headmaster of Education Incorporated. I always get asked by parents if we're a tech school and if all our students have iPads." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Technology in education · [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=0) > "The answer is that we don't believe in just digitizing an analog process. Let me share the tech journey of another school, Flowerfield High School." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [00:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=9) > "Flowerfield High School's governing body decided that in order to remain relevant and appear progressive, they would create digital classrooms and a paperless administration process." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [00:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=18) > "When prospective parents asked what the school's technological policy was, the answer could proudly be that every student had a tablet and thus did not need textbooks, that every classroom had a smart board, and that the teacher's administration was all completed electronically." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=27) > "Millions of rands were spent, and Flowerfield High School was the very epitome of a digital school." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=41) > "The textbook was replaced by a tablet. The chalkboards were replaced with smart boards. The teacher's lesson plans and mark sheets were replaced by Word and Excel documents, except nothing actually changed in the way the teachers taught in the classroom." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [00:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=54) > "Nothing changed in the way the learners were expected to engage with their work. Nothing changed in the way management wanted to see data and information, and most notably, nothing changed in any of the processes." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Digitizing analog processes · [01:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=67) > "Teachers were probably as excited decades ago by the introduction of the green board and color chalk as they are today about tablets and smart boards." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Technology in education · [01:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=80) > "Fundamentally, teachers are still teaching in the same Dickensian-style classrooms and manner as they did a hundred years ago." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teaching method and pedagogy · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=88) > "Teaching is not only about the what information, but also about the how method. How are the students required to demonstrate their knowledge and skills when they write their tests and exams?" >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teaching method and pedagogy · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=95) > "They are required to write their tests and exams with a pen and paper at the moment, an incremental step up from parchment and quills." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teaching method and pedagogy · [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=106) > "The correct use of technology and the digitization of information allows for us to fundamentally change the way we teach, change how the learners experience the learning process, and how management can collect, review, and analyze data and information." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Technology in education · [01:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=114) > "It is in this exact experience that learners are prepared for the 22nd century by learning to do things differently and adapting to the rapidly ever-changing environment around them, not just applying Dickens 2.0." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Preparing learners for the future · [02:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=128) > "One could go as far as to say that if new technologies are correctly and effectively applied in teaching, then the method is the lesson itself." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: Teaching method and pedagogy · [02:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=141) > "Education Incorporated is a tech school. The framework that we use is Google Suite with an exabyte of space. That's a million terabytes." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School tech infrastructure · [02:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=150) > "We have a one gig internet line. That's a thousand megabytes. Teachers are constantly adapting and learning to use the appropriate technology to enhance the teaching and learning experience." >, Gershom Aitchison, host · topic: School tech infrastructure · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988464_high.mp3#t=159) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Are iPads the coloured chalk of the 21st century? Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## 2 Things Every Parent Wishes They'd Known Sooner - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2018-11-21-2-things-every-parent-wishes-they/ - Date: 2018-11-21 (as at 2018-11-21) - Themes: Cognitive levels in exams, Bloom's taxonomy, Productive struggle in learning, Stress and motivation, Parent support role, Exam preparation with past papers - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988468 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) A presentation to parents and learners from Edu Inc, a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg, that writes the IEB. The speaker, who is not named, covers two things parents wish they had known sooner. The first is cognitive levels, based on Bloom's taxonomy and the CAPS simplification, and how exams weight them. The second is that learning is supposed to be hard, because struggle, an appropriate amount of stress and positive frustration drive real learning. The talk closes with practical guidance on the parent's supportive role, how to divide study time, and a concept-by-concept method for working through past papers. **Key ideas** - The speaker argues that children who get everything right at home still fail because parents test only lower cognitive levels, which make up a portion of the exam. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=35) [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=52) [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=320)) - Cognitive levels are about how learners must demonstrate engagement with information, not intelligence. CAPS groups Bloom's six levels into three exam levels. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=102) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=240) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=240) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=259) [04:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=287)) - Well-constructed exams should be hard and include unseen questions requiring knowledge to be applied in new ways. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=60) [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=82) [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=91)) - The instruction verbs in a question signal which cognitive level is required. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=378) [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=455)) - The speaker argues that real learning happens through struggle, with an appropriate amount of stress and positive frustration. ([17:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1035) [17:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1039) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1150) [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1177) [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1339) [22:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1352)) - Engagement depends on balancing skill level with difficulty. Too hard leads to giving up, and too easy leads to boredom. ([19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1196) [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1216)) - The parent's role is to create a supportive environment and not rescue the child from the struggle. ([18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1086) [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421) [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1468)) **Past paper practice method** ([24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1480) [24:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1483) [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1544) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1557) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1616)) 1. Divide study time: one part rote memorising; class and textbook activities; half of test preparation time on past papers. 2. Find two or three past papers and identify the similar concepts. 3. Do the first concept in one paper and mark it. 4. Do the same concept in the next paper, mark it, and fix errors before moving on. 5. Repeat concept by concept, ideally across five or six papers. 6. Then do whole papers, easiest to hardest questions, under time conditions, and mark them. **Lessons** - When quizzing a child at home, recognise that this mostly covers cognitive level one, roughly thirty to forty percent of an exam. ([05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=320) [25:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1514)) - Teach children to read the instruction verbs in a question to know how to answer it. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=378)) - Do not remove the struggle. Provide a safe environment instead, like leaving a butterfly to leave its cocoon. ([18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1086) [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421)) - Mark past papers concept by concept rather than after a full paper, to avoid practising mistakes. ([25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1544) [25:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1553) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1557)) - Support basics: a work area, healthy meals, sleep, punctuality and leading by example. ([24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1468)) **Who it's for:** Parents of school-age children, especially those preparing for IEB or CAPS exams, who want to understand why exam results differ from home testing and how to support study without over-helping. **Facts stated in the episode** - In most exams, cognitive level one makes up thirty to forty percent, level two thirty to forty percent, and level three about thirty percent. ([05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=320)) - IEB papers often have cognitive level three at about forty percent. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=353)) - National Senior Certificate passes sit between thirty and forty percent. ([08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=523)) - Most tertiary institutions and Edu Inc have a nominal pass of fifty percent. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=539)) - An Edu Inc pass on the report card requires seventy-five percent. ([09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=558)) - A 'Bloom's Taxonomy for Teachers' resource is on the Edu Inc website under resources. ([08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=509)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: Why does my child fail exams when they knew everything the night before?** A: The speaker says parents usually test at lower cognitive levels, which make up only thirty to forty percent of an exam. So the child got everything right that was taught at home, but not everything was taught. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=35) [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=52) [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=320)) **Q: What are cognitive levels in school exams?** A: Following CAPS, level one covers remembering and understanding, level two covers applying and analysing, and level three covers evaluating and creating. The speaker adds that cognitive levels are not about how intelligent someone is. ([01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=102) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=240) [04:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=287)) **Q: How are IEB papers weighted by cognitive level?** A: The speaker says the IEB is weighted more to the higher cognitive levels, with level three often sitting at about forty percent. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=353)) **Q: How can I tell what an exam question is asking for?** A: Look at the verbs and instructions in the question. The speaker says 'list' signals a basic level, while words like 'use', 'draw conclusions' and 'what would happen if' signal higher levels. Paraphrasing in your own words is what earns marks. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=378) [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=455)) **Q: Should exams have questions my child was never taught?** A: The speaker says yes. Correctly constructed exams include unseen questions that require knowledge to be applied in new ways, built from class activities and homework. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=60) [13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=827) [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=858)) **Q: Is stress bad for learning?** A: The speaker argues that an appropriate amount of stress motivates. Too much debilitates and too little leaves learners unmotivated, so the aim is a 'Goldilocks' amount. ([18:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1100) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1150) [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1165)) **Q: How should my child use past papers?** A: Work concept by concept across two or three papers, marking each before moving on. Then do full papers from the easiest to the hardest questions under time conditions. ([25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1544) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1557) [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1616)) **Q: What is my role as a parent in exam preparation?** A: The speaker says to create a supportive space and environment for the child's process, including a work area, meals, sleep and punctuality. Parents can also quiz cognitive level one facts. ([23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1468) [25:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1514)) ### Passage: Bloom's taxonomy mapped to exam cognitive levels [04:00-06:08, 290 words] Note (AI): Explains the three cognitive levels used in exams and their typical weightings. This shows why home testing covers only part of a paper. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=240): > This is a very simplified version of it, and we start at the bottom with cognitive level one, which is remembering and recognizing facts. Cognitive level number two is understanding, and understanding what the facts mean. Cognitive level number one and two are considered lower order thinking skills. The next four cognitive levels, apply, analyze, evaluate, and create, are considered higher order cognitive skills. Now, we use the CAPS document as a basis for understanding cognitive levels, and they've simplified it a little bit easier in terms of how we structure our exams and our tests, and how we engage with that information. And they've said cognitive level one is the first two cognitive levels of Bloom's taxonomy. So when I'm referring to cognitive level one from now onwards, I'm referring to the first two. Analyze and apply are cognitive level number two, and create and evaluate are cognitive level number three. Okay. What do you suppose those percentages mean that I've just added to the slide? To your mark, to your exam construction, yes, Gabs? So in most exams, between thirty and forty percent of the exam is cognitive level one. I helped my child and they knew everything when I went to school. They got forty percent for the exam, which meant they got a hundred percent for everything that you taught them at home. Cognitive level two Makes up thirty to forty percent, and cognitive level three makes up the other thirty, plus minus thirty percent. And why I say plus minus, it varies from subject to subject, and the IEB places are higher, it is weighted more to the higher cognitive levels, and often their papers are cognitive level three is sitting at about forty percent. ### Passage: The red velvet cake example of cognitive levels [11:53-15:13, 507 words] Note (AI): A worked example of how class activity and homework build toward an unseen, higher-level exam question. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=713): > Let's bake a red velvet birthday cake for six people. It's a class activity, so we engage with them at work. Cognitive level number one, let the students engage in this. Let's make a shopping list. Let's buy the ingredients. Cognitive level number two, the requirements say fifty grams of something, yet the packets they sell are only twenty grams. How many packets do I need? The answer's not two. Conversions, lot of recipes have Imperial, measurement, and you have to convert it back to decimal. Then what happens in cognitive level number three is it asks for a round pan, if any, anyone's done any baking, it is thirty centimeters in diameter and exactly seven centimeters deep. You have one that's twenty-five and is ten centimeters deep. Or we don't have a round one, we have a square one. But it kind of looks like it's going to fit in there. And we couldn't find the canola oil from some un, unknown rainforest that's required in the, the, except if it's a Woolies recipe. So we've had to improvise with something that is oil-based that will do the same thing and not alter the, the, the taste of it. We do this all day and every day, don't we? The homework that went home. Cut out pictures from old magazines of different cakes used for various celebrations around the world. Parents look at this going, this is insignificant, it's boring, why must they just cut out papers and be researching on the internet? It looks like YouTube time to me. So let's just, not important, go to bed, let's do whatever we need to do. This was the exam question. Describe how you would prepare a blue velvet cake for a Chinese wedding with 20 guests. Were they taught a blue velvet cake for a Chinese wedding in class? Can we use the skills that we've learnt in class and a bit of research we were meant to do for homework to answer that question? Do you think this would be worth more marks than the original assessment in the classroom? Absolutely. So the class activity plus the homework will lead us to being able to answer the exam question. So this is put in a nice little box and tied with a bow, cause it looks nice and easy. It's a little bit, a little bit more messy usually, but you're getting the picture. So why it's worth more is that suddenly the recipe we had was for a cake, or in this case our butter croissant, but it was for eight, and now we have to make twenty. So now we have to learn how to use proportion and increase the recipes propor, the, the ingredients proportionally. Not only that, it said a Chinese wedding cake. So we then had to go and understand what Chinese wedding cakes look like in part of our design and our decorations. That's where the research came in. So now we're creating something that we've never done before. ### Passage: Stress, motivation and balancing skill with difficulty [18:20-20:31, 326 words] Note (AI): Argues that an appropriate amount of stress and difficulty motivates learning. Too much or too little causes disengagement. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [18:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1100): > So one of the things we talk about in study skills is stress and stress management. Stress is bad. True or false? Hands up for true, hands down for false. Guys, if we weren't stressed, we wouldn't be here. Because the cavemen that preceded us would have died during winter, because they wouldn't have had food, they wouldn't have had fire, and they wouldn't have had clothing. So the appropriate amount of stress is good for you. Why? Because it motivates. And as human beings, we will always take the path of least resistance and do nothing if we could. Who'd rather spend their entire year on holiday? Don't worry about emails. If you don't put up your hand, you're lying. The thing is that you have to find That golden spot, the Goldilocks area of it, where it's just right, the right amount of stress that brings about the best amount of performance. Too much stress debilitates. Too little stress, we're not motivated. So it's not made difficult for the sake of making it difficult. It's an understanding that true learning only happens when we have to work for it. As Grok was talking about dopamine levels, when you have succeeded at something difficult, you get a hit, there's a rush. If it's too easy, you kind of think that it was too easy. Is the rush as big? No. It needs to be hard enough to get that dopamine kick so that you can move forward and that you want to do some more work, some more learning. The same thing happens when it comes to your skill and difficulty levels. If a child's skill is too low, I can't do it, what do we do? We give up. If it's too difficult or perceived to be too difficult, we give up. If it's too easy, the child becomes bored. So it's about finding the balance between the skill level and the difficulty level ### Passage: The J curve and positive frustration [20:33-22:45, 385 words] Note (AI): Describes the stages learners pass through on projects and why discomfort precedes real learning. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1233): > So one of the things that I really enjoy talking about are J curves. Who knows what a J curve is? The baseline of a J curve is essentially the normal and what we expect to happen, and it dips below normal, and then it goes through past normal. So this is a nice J curve, and it's probably sitting about there. So when we start a project, and this J curve for me represents something that I feel quite passionate about, why we always leave things to the last minute, and we never have enough time to do it. We overestimate our skill until we really realize what it takes to do the job, and then we've got a lot of less, a lot less time to upskill ourselves to do the job, and then we eventually get there. Some people thrive on that. I think it's creating artificial stress. So we start by going clueless, I don't know what I have to do, and then naively confident. You think you know what you have to do, you still don't really know, but it's fine, I've got this, I have this idea in my head of what I'm going to be doing. Mom, it's sorted, I have an idea, I'm on top of this. Deadline looms, discouragingly realistic. I actually don't know as much as I thought I knew. There's a lot more work to be done, help crisis, maybe a tantrum, maybe some tears, and that's just from the parents. And then we start and engage on our learning curve, which at this point might be quite a steep one because we've left it so late. This ties into Jax's neuroscience. And if we look at what people are now terming positive frustration, did you know there was such a thing? I sit in the car and I don't think anything positive about the frustration I'm feeling. But in terms of preceding learning, there needs to be some discomfort and frustration, otherwise there's no need for that. We don't find ourselves open to the experience. Where real learning is happening is where we stretch our minds, where our brains are hurting, and we are working in the cognitive level three space where we are taking knowledge from different areas and putting it together. ### Passage: How to divide study time and use past papers [24:40-27:02, 412 words] Note (AI): A step-by-step study method: splitting time across memorising, activities and past papers, done concept by concept, then as full timed papers. Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1480): > So what do parent, what do kids need to be spending their time on? If you divide their time roughly into six parts, one part of their time is for rote memorizing. It's the push-ups, the times tables, the formulas. The stuff that should just be at the tip of your finger. In the old days, when we didn't have cell phones, it would be memorizing people's telephone numbers. Okay. Two thirds of their time doing class activities and textbook activities. That's where cognitive level two is. You may help them with cognitive level one by quizzing them in the car on the way to school. Cognitive level number two is in their class activities and their textbook activities, and they're appropriate activities for engaging the students and engaging them when they're practicing for tests and exams. And then in preparation for the tests and exams, they should be spending half of their time doing past papers. But there's a special way of doing past papers. We don't just sit down and do the entire paper and then mark it, because what we've done is spend two hours or three hours practicing the wrong thing. And once you've learned something, to unlearn it takes a lot longer. So what we do is, you find two or three past papers, you start by identifying the similar concepts, do the first concept, mark it. Is it correct? Yes. Move on to the second paper, same concept. Do it, it's correct. Move on to the third concept, third, the same concept in the third paper. Got it wrong, fix it. Now I have learnt it properly. If I go all three and then mark, I might have been practicing it incorrectly. And we do that concept by concept. The Matrix I like them to do five or six papers, because it gives them the broadest possible scope in how questions are being asked. Once we've done that, and we know that conceptually we understand the work that needs to be done, and we're doing it correctly, we then practice for our exam. So then we do the papers from the top, let me rephrase that, we do the whole paper. Not necessarily from the top to the bottom. But from the easiest to the hardest. Does that make sense, guys? We do it from the easiest to the hardest, but that paper in its entirety, and then we mark it and it's under time conditions. ### Quotes > "So they got everything right that you taught them, but you didn't teach them everything." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [00:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=52) > "If they were easy, everyone would be getting the As." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=91) > "It's supposed to be hard, because that's when real learning takes place." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [17:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1039) > "Guys, if we weren't stressed, we wouldn't be here." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [18:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1114) > "Too much stress debilitates. Too little stress, we're not motivated." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1165) > "It's an understanding that true learning only happens when we have to work for it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1177) > "There's a lot more work to be done, help crisis, maybe a tantrum, maybe some tears, and that's just from the parents." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [21:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1303) > "Your job is to create a space and an environment and be supportive of your children's process, because the process is the most important thing." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421) > "And once you've learned something, to unlearn it takes a lot longer." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [25:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1553) > "Summer bodies are made in winter." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1623) ### Claims > "The chances are, ladies and gentlemen, that your child did get everything correct at home while you were testing them. But you were testing them at the incorrect cognitive levels," >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=35) > "If the teachers are constructing their exams and tests correctly, there will be questions that they've never seen before. They will be required to demonstrate their knowledge in a way that they've never had to apply before." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=60) > "And finally, exam papers should be hard. That's how you know that they're very well constructed and that they have a good standard. If they were easy, everyone would be getting the As." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=82) > "And it's not, not some obscure reference to how intelligent we are. It's about how we are required to demonstrate our engagement with different information and skill that varies." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=102) > "Every single one of those requirements that you have of your children, that your employees have of your children, when they are going to graduate or go into the workplace, that universities are going to have of your children, are all higher cognitive order thinking. And it's not something that comes naturally, it's something that has to be taught." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Bloom's taxonomy · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=183) > "This is a very simplified version of it, and we start at the bottom with cognitive level one, which is remembering and recognizing facts. Cognitive level number two is understanding, and understanding what the facts mean. Cognitive level number one and two are considered lower order thinking skills." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Bloom's taxonomy · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=240) > "The next four cognitive levels, apply, analyze, evaluate, and create, are considered higher order cognitive skills." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Bloom's taxonomy · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=259) > "And they've said cognitive level one is the first two cognitive levels of Bloom's taxonomy. So when I'm referring to cognitive level one from now onwards, I'm referring to the first two. Analyze and apply are cognitive level number two, and create and evaluate are cognitive level number three." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Bloom's taxonomy · [04:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=287) > "So in most exams, between thirty and forty percent of the exam is cognitive level one. I helped my child and they knew everything when I went to school. They got forty percent for the exam, which meant they got a hundred percent for everything that you taught them at home. Cognitive level two Makes up thirty to forty percent, and cognitive level three makes up the other thirty, plus minus thirty percent." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=320) > "it varies from subject to subject, and the IEB places are higher, it is weighted more to the higher cognitive levels, and often their papers are cognitive level three is sitting at about forty percent." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=353) > "I think what's important to know in terms of understanding what cognitive level you're required to demonstrate engage with the knowledge is to look at the verbs, the doing words, and the instructions that are embedded in the question." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=378) > "What they want to see is that you can paraphrase the information. In other words, use it in your own words." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=455) > "if you go onto the Edu Inc website under resources there's Bloom's Taxonomy for Teachers, which will detail a lot more of the key words and the questions that allow you to access the information." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Bloom's taxonomy · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=509) > "NEC National Senior Certificate passes between thirty and forty percent. What is it telling you about what they're expecting the learners to be able to do? Learn and regurgitate, cognitive level number one." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=523) > "Most tertiary institutions, Edu Inc, and a lot of schools have a nominal pass of fifty percent. What is the statement in fifty percent? Half of it you don't know, but we'd like you to be able to engage and use the information." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=539) > "And then a lot of parents say, why is my child need to get seventy-five percent if they want an Edu Inc pass on their report card?" >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=558) > "What it's asking you to do is engage with the work and the material and the knowledge and skills at a higher cognitive level, not just about using it, but be able to solve problems with it, to analyze it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=575) > "So it's likely that if you write the answer yes, it's correct, but you're only going to get one of the marks of the seven, because they want you to demonstrate that you can use the information." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=641) > "his mark allocation was eleven of those marks with cognitive level one, ten of those marks were cognitive level number two, and nine of those marks were cognitive level number Three." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=680) > "This was the exam question. Describe how you would prepare a blue velvet cake for a Chinese wedding with 20 guests. Were they taught a blue velvet cake for a Chinese wedding in class?" >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [13:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=827) > "So the class activity plus the homework will lead us to being able to answer the exam question." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [14:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=858) > "Compare and contrast the peacock, which is a bird, and the lizard, which is a reptile. Have they learnt about a peacock and a lizard? Have they learned about birds and reptiles?" >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=970) > "and this is how we teach the students at Edu Inc from a young age, and the vocabulary starts early, so they understand that a test on the exam is an opportunity to demonstrate your knowledge and skills in a specific way." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Cognitive levels in exams · [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1012) > "The second thing you wish you'd known sooner. It's supposed to be hard, because that's when real learning takes place." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [17:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1035) > "You can leave it alone, keep your cats from playing with it, so put it in a safe space where it can get out. Create an environment that's the safest place for that to happen. But don't take it out of the cocoon." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1086) > "The thing is that you have to find That golden spot, the Goldilocks area of it, where it's just right, the right amount of stress that brings about the best amount of performance. Too much stress debilitates. Too little stress, we're not motivated." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Stress and motivation · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1150) > "It needs to be hard enough to get that dopamine kick so that you can move forward and that you want to do some more work, some more learning." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Stress and motivation · [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1196) > "If it's too difficult or perceived to be too difficult, we give up. If it's too easy, the child becomes bored. So it's about finding the balance between the skill level and the difficulty level to keep people engaged." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1216) > "We overestimate our skill until we really realize what it takes to do the job, and then we've got a lot of less, a lot less time to upskill ourselves to do the job, and then we eventually get there. Some people thrive on that. I think it's creating artificial stress." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Stress and motivation · [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1263) > "But in terms of preceding learning, there needs to be some discomfort and frustration, otherwise there's no need for that. We don't find ourselves open to the experience." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1339) > "Where real learning is happening is where we stretch our minds, where our brains are hurting, and we are working in the cognitive level three space where we are taking knowledge from different areas and putting it together." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [22:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1352) > "One of the things that your kids or the kids that are in the audience are going to do is create the own title that they are going to be Performing in this world, their own mission, and part of that is taking knowledge from here and knowledge from there and putting it together." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Productive struggle in learning · [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1367) > "Your job is to create a space and an environment and be supportive of your children's process, because the process is the most important thing." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Parent support role · [23:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1421) > "Suitable work area, healthy meals, regular and sufficient sleep, at school on time, and lead by example. You demonstrate control, your kids will sense that control." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Parent support role · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1468) > "If you divide their time roughly into six parts, one part of their time is for rote memorizing. It's the push-ups, the times tables, the formulas." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Exam preparation with past papers · [24:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1483) > "You may help them with cognitive level one by quizzing them in the car on the way to school." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Parent support role · [25:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1514) > "We don't just sit down and do the entire paper and then mark it, because what we've done is spend two hours or three hours practicing the wrong thing. And once you've learned something, to unlearn it takes a lot longer." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Exam preparation with past papers · [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1544) > "So what we do is, you find two or three past papers, you start by identifying the similar concepts, do the first concept, mark it." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Exam preparation with past papers · [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1557) > "We do it from the easiest to the hardest, but that paper in its entirety, and then we mark it and it's under time conditions." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Exam preparation with past papers · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988468_high.mp3#t=1616) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) 2 Things Every Parent Wishes They'd Known Sooner Watch on YouTube · Edu Inc website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google ## Welcome to Edu Inc - Be Your Best Self - Page: https://context.educationincorporated.co.za/episodes/2018-09-01-welcome-to-edu-inc-be-your/ - Date: 2018-09-01 (as at 2018-09-01) - Themes: Choosing the right school, Small class sizes, Academic excellence, School vision and values - Episode: https://iono.fm/e/988375 - Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3 ### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment) This is a short welcome message for the podcast of Edu Inc (Education Incorporated), a mainstream independent school in Fourways, Johannesburg. The speaker describes it as a registered private school with very small classes focused on academic excellence. The message says that choosing a school is among the most important decisions a parent makes. It states that the school puts children's best interests first so they can become their best selves. It invites parents to visit the website and judge whether the school's vision and values fit their hopes for their child. **Key ideas** - The speaker argues that choosing the right school is one of the most important decisions a parent can make, and that not all schools are equal. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=0) [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=2)) - The speaker describes Education Incorporated as a registered private school in Fourways with very small classes focused on academic excellence. ([00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=7)) - The speaker says the school puts children's best interests first in order to guide them to become the best version of themselves. ([00:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=14) [00:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=17)) - The speaker invites parents to check whether the school's vision and values match their own aspirations for their child. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=20) [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=23)) **Lessons** - The speaker encourages parents to treat choosing a school as a major decision, because schools differ. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=0) [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=2)) - The speaker suggests that parents compare a school's vision and values with their own aspirations for their child's future. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=20)) **Who it's for:** Parents in or near Fourways, Johannesburg, who are choosing a school and want a first look at what Education Incorporated says it offers: small classes and a focus on academic excellence. **Facts stated in the episode** - Education Incorporated is described as a registered private school in Fourways. ([00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=7)) - The school's website is given as educationincorporated.co.za. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=20)) ### Questions this episode answers **Q: What is Education Incorporated?** A: The speaker describes it as a registered private school in Fourways with very small classes focused on academic excellence. ([00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=7)) **Q: What does Edu Inc say its goal is for its pupils?** A: It says it prioritises children's best interests to guide them to become the very best version of themselves. ([00:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=14)) **Q: How can I find out whether Edu Inc suits my child?** A: The speaker invites parents to visit educationincorporated.co.za and decide whether the school's vision and values match their aspirations for their child's future. ([00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=20)) **Q: Why does choosing a school matter so much?** A: The speaker says not all schools are created equal, and that choosing the right school is one of the most important decisions a parent can make. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=0) [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=2)) **Q: Where is Edu Inc located?** A: The speaker says it is in Fourways. ([00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=7)) ### Quotes > "Not all schools are created equal." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=0) > "we guide them to become the very best version of themselves." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [00:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=17) > "decide if our vision and values match your aspirations for their future." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · [00:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=23) ### Claims > "Choosing the right school for your child is one of the most important decisions that you, as a parent, can ever make." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Choosing the right school · [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=2) > "Education Incorporated is a registered private school in Fourways, with very small classes focused on academic excellence." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: Small class sizes · [00:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=7) > "By prioritizing the best interests of our children, we guide them to become the very best version of themselves." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: School vision and values · [00:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=14) > "Visit educationincorporated.co.za and decide if our vision and values match your aspirations for their future." >, Unidentified speaker, speaker, role not identified · topic: School vision and values · [00:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_988375_high.mp3#t=20) ### Episode notes (as published with the podcast) Edu Inc is a registered, affordable, IEB Private School in Fourways South Africa teaching grades 4 to 12 with 10 children per class. Choosing the right school for your child is one of the biggest responsibilites of being a parent. With our very small classes, each child is assured personal attention from our qualified and caring teachers. As a mainstream IEB GDE-registered and Umalusi-accredited school, our Matrics write the same exams as the other private IEB schools you are familiar with. We’re extremely proud of our 100% pass rate and look forward to answering any questions you may have about Edu Inc. This podcast channel will give you some insight into how Edu Inc operates and communicates with its community. website · Facebook (Public) · Facebook (closed group) · Twitter (closed group) · YouTube · Review us on Google